More prosecutions, not more gun laws, who would have thought?

[Township75]

Definetly, not the Bellisiles lovers.

U.S. attorney takes aim at gun violence
Friday, February 13, 2004

By Jonathan D. Silver, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

U.S. Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan yesterday announced a $758,000 federal grant to combat gun violence, promised an increase in firearms prosecutions by her office and stressed the importance of community efforts to eliminate the modern-day scourge.

SNIP

The biggest slice of the grant -- $378,000 -- will go to the Allegheny County Coroner's Forensic Laboratories Division, which perpetually suffers from backlogs in processing ballistics evidence, partly because of a lack of personnel. It has become standard for both Pittsburgh and county police to cite crime lab delays as the reason some cases drag on.

Whoa, are they serious? I was always told by anti-gunners that not enough laws was the problem. Apparently, it is not enough people/funding.

SNIP

"Frankly, I don't think we were doing enough. I don't think we were prosecuting as many cases as we could," Buchanan said in an interview earlier this week.

Don't tell that to the Bellisiles wanna-be's.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04044/272561.stm

[iverglas]

1. quote, please

I was always told by anti-gunners that not enough laws was the problem.

You're the one saying "always", so you shouldn't have much trouble finding, oh, one quotation.

Me, I've always said that the harm caused by means of firearms is the problem.

I've just never thought that "not enough laws" might be a problem. What might the nature of that problem be, if such it were?

I mean, "not enough recipes" could conceivably be a problem, if all I had were raw eggs and recipes for roast turkey, and the problem I actually wanted to solve were that I was hungry and had nothing to eat.

Could the problem you've got be that all you have is horrific rates of homicides, suicides, woundings, accidental deaths and injuries, and crimes facilitated by firearms, and laws that don't do anything to reduce the risk of them occurring?

If so, I guess I could see how you might think that "not enough laws" was a kind of a problem.

But I'm not sure how prosecuting more cases under existing laws is necessarily going to solve the real problems -- the deaths and injuries and crimes.

I mean, is prosecuting someone for, what, robbery at gunpoint, going to do something to solve the problem of the availability of firearms for the next person who wants to rob someone at gunpoint? Only if you think that the general deterrent effect of sentencing Person A works really well on Persons B, C and D, all of whom are "inclined toward" committing robbery at gunpoint ... in which case you'd be generally recognized by the knowledgeable as not too knowledgeable.

The knowledgeable know quite well what the limitations of the general deterrent effect of potential penalties are on your average robber, and know that if we are looking for a solution to the problem -- robberies at gunpoint -- we might better look somewhere else than the criminal justice and corrections systems. Of course, if all we care about is punishing and disabling the people who commit robberies at gunpoint and get caught, and we don't care about protecting the public from other robbers, then sure, lock 'em up and throw away the key.

And how locking up robbers is going to address the problem of people shooting their spouses, or kids shooting each other or themselves with firearms they had access to, quite apart from the problem of would-be robbers getting hold of firearms, I'm sure I don't know. I doubt that locking up robbers will do anything about those problems at all.

.

[MrBenchley]

3. It's interesting to see

that even the Pirates of Enron, who were so fanatically pro-gun industry that they wouldn't let the FBI check to see if terrorists bought guns after 9/11, is generating horseshit PR like this in an effort to pretend they are actually not pro-gun.

Guess even they know how popular gun control is with American voters....

You might recall the Chimp tried to pretend prior to the 2000 election how hot for gun control he was. But like everything the unelected drunk said, that was a lie..

[MrBenchley]

2. Wow....

One wonders how pathetically desperate the RKBA crowd is going to get...

"Truly, gun crime hits everyone. It hits every neighborhood," Buchanan told an audience of about 150 people at the Bloomfield-Garfield Corp.'s community center in Garfield. "We all know someone who's been affected by gun violence, and we all need to find a solution."

Don't see anybody in this story saying gun control isn't needed.

"The biggest slice of the grant -- $378,000 -- will go to the Allegheny County Coroner's Forensic Laboratories Division, which perpetually suffers from backlogs in processing ballistics evidence, partly because of a lack of personnel. It has become standard for both Pittsburgh and county police to cite crime lab delays as the reason some cases drag on."
That would be the ballistics evidence the RKBA crowd keeps assuring us doesn't work and cannot be ccollected in a database......

""Here we are, 10 years later, dealing with the same issue. Now what's going to be different about this program than the one in 1995, 1997, 1999?" Young said.
She suggested that $100,000 for community groups was hardly enough to tackle a countywide problem.
"You take $100,000 and spread that out across the city and what do you come up with? You come up with programs that are understaffed, underfunded and ineffective," Young said."

Just the way Johnn AshKKKroft and the gun lobby like them....

[Township75]

4. Hand us another laugh!

""Truly, gun crime hits everyone. It hits every neighborhood," Buchanan told an audience of about 150 people at the Bloomfield-Garfield Corp.'s community center in Garfield. "We all know someone who's been affected by gun violence, and we all need to find a solution."

Don't see anybody in this story saying gun control isn't needed."

You must have been trained by Mike Bellishitter. I don't see anyone saying we need more gun control.

"That would be the ballistics evidence the RKBA crowd keeps assuring us doesn't work and cannot be ccollected in a database......"

I would say "nice try", if it were a nice try. RKBA crowd assures you that ballistics database would prove futile in finding a criminal based soley on finding a bullet at a crime scene. No one (except for maybe you) stated that ballistics can't be used to connect an arrested individual in possession of a gun with a bullet at a crime scene.

""Here we are, 10 years later, dealing with the same issue. Now what's going to be different about this program than the one in 1995, 1997, 1999?" Young said.
She suggested that $100,000 for community groups was hardly enough to tackle a countywide problem.
"You take $100,000 and spread that out across the city and what do you come up with? You come up with programs that are understaffed, underfunded and ineffective," Young said."

Just the way Johnn AshKKKroft and the gun lobby like them....""

Yeah, and you too...don't forget, you call for more laws and not more funding.

[MrBenchley]

5. In fact you DO see

somebody saying quite clearly this isn't enough....

"RKBA crowd assures you that ballistics database would prove futile in finding a criminal based soley on finding a bullet at a crime scene. No one (except for maybe you) stated that ballistics can't be used to connect an arrested individual in possession of a gun with a bullet at a crime scene."
Too fucking funny...the arrest changes the characteristics of the recovered bullet?

[Township75]

6. The only thing that is quite clearly stated...

is YOU saying this isn't enough. The article states we need to find a "solution".

Now seeing how the individual who made that quote was extolling the new funding TO ENFORCE THE CURRENT LAWS, it is evident to anyone not corrupted by the blood money of the anti gunners (if they had any money, their organizations are all bankrupt), and it is never said in the article that we need more gun control.

The only one saying that there isn't enough gun control is you.

Are you related to Bellisiles?

[MrBenchley]

7. "understaffed, underfunded and ineffective"

is the ACTUAL quote from the article.

[Township75]

8. Thanks for making my point...it finally hit you.

""understaffed, underfunded and ineffective""

NOT underlegislated.

[MrBenchley]

9. "understaffed, underfunded and ineffective"

Exact quote from the article YOU posted.

Exactly what John AshKKKroft and the corrupt gun industry wants instead of effective gunn control.

[el_gato]

11. gun control is paternalistic and anti-liberty

hey man shit happens when you have a free society
we could all live in a padded cell and stay "safe"
but that wouldn't be any fun now would it?

whine all you want to, you're never gonna get anywhere.

[Township75]

13. Hand us another laugh!

You may wish to disown your own words, but you can't.

The pro gunners on J/PS have long been advocating enforcement of existing laws. You have been advocating more gun control.

""understaffed, underfunded and ineffective"" is a direct result of the lack of money that funds, staffs, and makes law enforcement effective.

But as usual the anti's just want more unenforced gun laws that are completely ineffective....hey, didn't you say AshKKKroft and the corrupt gun industry wants that to? Who's side are you on?

[MrBenchley]

15. "understaffed, underfunded and ineffective"

Just the way AshKKKroft and the corrupt gun industry wants it....

[el_gato]

17. Yeah I guess it would be better if jackbooted thugs searched your house

just to make you feel better benchy

[Township75]

18. and you too!

!

[MrBenchley]

19. Yeah, that's why I started this thread...no, wait!

YOU started this thread to hoorah about this piece of shit from the GOP that is "understaffed, underfunded and ineffective"--just like John AshKKKroft and the corrupt gun industry wants.

[el_gato]

48. a quote

the reason people here are pro gun is because we don't want the government to have MORE power. and yet you say glaringly false things like this: "And the only complaint frrom gunn owners has been that these uneleccted crooks aren't shitty and Nazi-like enough." Show me one instance of someone pro-gun on this board that has said anything like this.

[alwynsw]

Interesting

"You take $100,000 and spread that out across the city and what do you come up with? You come up with programs that are understaffed, underfunded and ineffective," Young said.

You might notice that this is Ms. Young's opinion. Who is Ms. Young?

One of the people listening to Buchanan's announcement was Adrienne Young, director of the Tree of Hope, a faith-based group that assists victims of violence. Her son, Javon Thompson, 18, a Carnegie Mellon University student, was shot to death in December 1994 by Benjamin Wright, who used a gun bought at a jitney stand.

Odd that she wasn't calling for stricter gun control laws.

[alwynsw]

29. Hmmmm

"You take $100,000 and spread that out across the city and what do you come up with? You come up with programs that are understaffed, underfunded and ineffective," Young said.

You might notice that this is Ms. Young's opinion. Who is Ms. Young?

One of the people listening to Buchanan's announcement was Adrienne Young, director of the Tree of Hope, a faith-based group that assists victims of violence. Her son, Javon Thompson, 18, a Carnegie Mellon University student, was shot to death in December 1994 by Benjamin Wright, who used a gun bought at a jitney stand.

Odd that she wasn't calling for stricter gun control laws.

[alwynsw]

28. Actually the quote is:

"You take $100,000 and spread that out across the city and what do you come up with? You come up with programs that are understaffed, underfunded and ineffective," Young said.

You might notice that this is Ms. Young's opinion. Who is Ms. Young?

One of the people listening to Buchanan's announcement was Adrienne Young, director of the Tree of Hope, a faith-based group that assists victims of violence. Her son, Javon Thompson, 18, a Carnegie Mellon University student, was shot to death in December 1994 by Benjamin Wright, who used a gun bought at a jitney stand.

Odd that she wasn't calling for stricter gun control laws.

[MrBenchley]

32. Who ARE you trying to kid?

Do you REALLY want to pretend that the Tree of Hope stands for "gun rights"?

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_91440.html

[alwynsw]

34. I never implied that it did

<snip>
They're questions Adrienne Young already has faced, and Friday she put her arms around Williams and James during a news conference to announce a new violence prevention initiative on the North Side. It's a multi-pronged effort to reduce gun violence through community support and religious faith, supported by area churches, activists, and law enforcement.

I also recall from an earlier post that Tree of Hope is a faith based group.

I still don't see them calling for stricter gun laws in your link, either.

edited to add: Faith based? Now where do we hear that phrase coming from on a daily basis. (I'll give you a hint: it isn't the DNC.)

[alwynsw]

35. Oops! There it is!

One of the people listening to Buchanan's announcement was Adrienne Young, director of the Tree of Hope, a faith-based group that assists victims of violence.

I'm not posting a link to it because you already have it. It's in the origination post.

[MrBenchley]

38. Sure you did....

But no surprise you backed away from it.

"I also recall from an earlier post that Tree of Hope is a faith based group."
Yeah. Don't see therm asking for taxpayer money though.

[alwynsw]

39. Care to cite the implication?

You can't because it doesn't exist.

edited to add: If you've found such an implication from me, you have either inadvertently misread my posts or are deliberately spinning to support an unsubatantiated position. I'll be generous and assume the former.

[MrBenchley]

41. It's there for all to see....

Just like the new tack of trying to pretend "faith based = Republican".

[alwynsw]

46. If it's there for all to see

then you won't mind linking the post.

Where's the link?

[MrBenchley]

49. Go ahead and back down...

You might as well....

"Who is Ms. Young?
One of the people listening to Buchanan's announcement was Adrienne Young, director of the Tree of Hope, a faith-based group that assists victims of violence. Her son, Javon Thompson, 18, a Carnegie Mellon University student, was shot to death in December 1994 by Benjamin Wright, who used a gun bought at a jitney stand.
Odd that she wasn't calling for stricter gun control laws."

[Superfly]

53. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, that's rich!

"Tried to imply"

The anti-RKBA crowd is also known for being composed of very astute mind-readers.

[MrBenchley]

54. Actually, we can just read and tell the truth

which seems to the dishonest RKBA crowd like big magic.

[Superfly]

58. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, my God you are killing me today!!!

Will the anti-RKBA crowd's desperation ever cease? I surely hope not! (They say laughter is the best medicine...)

[Township75]

74. Yup, just the like the Can't Tell A Lie Bellisiles!

GOOD ONE!

[alwynsw]

60. Show me the implication

Observation is not implication.

[alwynsw]

73. OK. I got out my OED again.

Unless there are mind readers present, I made no implication. The ky word in the definition is intent. I can assure all that my intent was to merely point out that Ms. Young was not calling for stricter gun laws.

As we can see from the link posted by MrBenchley, http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_91440.html ,
the intent of Ms. Young's group, Tree of Hope, a charitable organization that helps families of murder victims, is counseling and support of crime victims.

[MrSandman]

95. Is that a regional version of the OED

"The ky word in the definition..."

;-)

[alwynsw]

96. Nah. Just the CD ROM version

It's a bunch cheaper at $200 and much easier to use.

on edit: I did like the ky wordplay. Dang, I must need to get some sleep. That zipped right past me on the first reading. nite nite

[Superfly]

42. Don't hold your breath...bald face lies

and heaps of cowshit are the mainstays of the anti-RKBA "mentality". Actually, replace "mentality" with "pathological illness".

[MrBenchley]

47. The LIES are on the RKBA side, fly

It's the RKBA crowd lying about NRA life member John AshKKKroft here...and pretending that this group is pro-gun rights...

Just like its the RKBA crowd cheerleading for the GOP AGAIN.

[el_gato]

50. you make a claim

the reason people here are pro gun is because we don't want the government to have MORE power. and yet you say glaringly false things like this: "And the only complaint frrom gunn owners has been that these uneleccted crooks aren't shitty and Nazi-like enough." Show me one instance of someone pro-gun on this board that has said anything like this.

[Superfly]

52. And here, ladies and gentlemen, we see the

"I know you are, but what am I?" gambit so often used by the anti-RKBA crowd.

[MrBenchley]

56. No,, fly, we see the RKBA crowd

sniveling AGAIN because their LIES have been exposed as such AGAIN.

[Superfly]

61. Another tactic of the anti-RKBA crowd...

if the "I know you are but what am I" gambit doesn't work, go right into the "I'm rubber and you're glue..." technique.

[alwynsw]

66. Shoe mirrors, anyone?

WE may as well be looking up skirts. The mind reading act is beginning to fade.

[kokofitz]

51. I fail to see the implication you of which you speak.

As I read the posts in this thread I noticed simply that the person who posted the reply to you said the group called for no new gun laws. There was no implication that they are pro gun or anti gun either in the article nor in the post.

[alwynsw]

55. In no way am I stating the position of Tree of Hope

as either pro- or anti-. I simply stated that I found it interesting that Ms. Young was not reported as calling for stricter gun laws.

No one in the article you posted is calling for them either:

But the pros and cons of gun control weren't of central concern to yesterday's speakers on the North Side. Rather, they focused on preventing violence by reaching potential offenders before it's too late.

[MrBenchley]

57. Nor are they opposing gun control

despite the title of this thread and the ccomments of the RKBA crowd in it.

[alwynsw]

67. Based upon the information available in both the

origination article and the followup article that you linked, we can clearly see that the main purpose of Tree of Hope is a support group. No more, no less.

[el_gato]

10. quote from iverglas

"And how locking up robbers is going to address the problem of people shooting their spouses, or kids shooting each other or themselves with firearms they had access to, quite apart from the problem of would-be robbers getting hold of firearms, I'm sure I don't know. I doubt that locking up robbers will do anything about those problems at all."

So what is your solution?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

27. isn't this fun?

I spend several months in a forum, honestly and sincerely and candidly and straightforwardly, without deceit or dissembling or disingenuousness, stating my opinions about a complex problem and things that might be done to solve it ...

... and along come somebody with the clever question:

So what is your solution?

Gosh, it's conceivable that he even thinks I'll answer it.

Nah. It would make no matter what I said. Someone (just a nebulous someone; I know there'd be someone, even if I don't know who) would reply:

So you're not going to answer the question.

I have answered the question, all without being asked. Over and over, in rather fine detail. Anyone genuinely interested (I can't think of who that might be at the moment, but I'm sure there must be someone) can use the search function and find some of it. Well, anyone with a gold star can do that.

.

[el_gato]

14. don't worry when the fascists have us all locked up in guantanamo

we can debate gun control for hours on end

[Township75]

16. Absolutely correct. And just like North Korea and the old USSR..

I am sure at Guantanamo only the military...and hell, the police will have guns. Ahhh Guantanamo, the anti gunners wet dream

[MrBenchley]

20. Gee, that was NRA life member John AshKKKroft

who set up Camp X-Ray. And I'm sure you can point to all the freedom-loving gun owners on the web protesting it too.......NOT!

Let's face it, the only complaint gun owners have about the Pirates of Enron is that they're not fascist and racist enough.

[Township75]

21. Gee, once again you point out a relationship between AshKKKroft &...

anti gunners.

"that was NRA life member John AshKKKroft"
Posted by MrBenchley
who set up Camp X-Ray. "

So you admit that he setup the anti gunner wet dream.

[MrBenchley]

22. Who are you trying to kid?

AshKKKroft is so pro-gun he wouldn't let the FBI look to see whether terrorists bought guns after 9/11.



And the only complaint frrom gunn owners has been that these uneleccted crooks aren't shitty and Nazi-like enough.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Township75]

24. Now if you would just stomp your feet harder, and shout louder....

Seriously, Bench, who are you trying to kid.

AshKKKroft made the anti gunner wet dream paradise in Gauntanamo.

Are you looking at purchasing a house down there or something?

[MrBenchley]

25. I leave that to the RKBA crowd....

And NRA life member AshKKKroft is the goon who set up Camp X-Ray...

[Township75]

26. which is the anti gunner's wet dream...

be sure and thank him next time you see him down there

[MrBenchley]

31. NRA asswipe John AshKKKroft...pro-gun all the way

and as ugly a piece of shit as there is in America.

And it's telling that the RKBA crowd is reduced to this desperate fantasy. Here's the lying lunatic in his REAL element.

[el_gato]

44. again prove your assertions

the reason people here are pro gun is because we don't want the government to have MORE power. and yet you say glaringly false things like this: "And the only complaint frrom gunn owners has been that these uneleccted crooks aren't shitty and Nazi-like enough." Show me one instance of someone pro-gun on this board that has said anything like this.

[beevul]

45. Damn, Town...

"So you admit that he setup the anti gunner wet dream."

Quality!! Made me laugh so hard I cried!!!


Caught me totally off guard and my side hurts now.:evilgrin:

[Township75]

68. Consider it payback...

for the many times my ribs have hurt because of your posts:)

[iverglas]

33. what fun!

More red-baiting! More bashing of fellow Democrats by attributing to them the ideology of the fascist thugs responsible for the Guantanamo Bay concentration camp! And all in one post!



By the bye, and à propos of nothing at all ...

Do a lot of people here take Fridays off to drink? I ask, not to be insulting or offensive, I assure everyone; heavens to betsy, no -- I ask because I am stupefied by the wit and wisdom and spirit of camaraderie I find here today, and wonder whether there is something special about Fridays that I should know, so as to be better prepared for it all in weeks to come ...

.

[MrBenchley]

36. It would be infuriating if it wasn't so hilarious

The RKBA crowd is reduced to

--pretending that the head of a violence prevention group is flogging their idiotic gun rights agenda

--pretending that NRA life member John AshKKKroft is anti-gun.

And let's not forget that the whole purpose of this thread was to give a big shout-out in favor off a half-assed GOP program designed to fool people into thinking the Pirates of Enron were doing something for gun control..

[Superfly]

37. Infuriating?....for *You*???

Nah....I don't believe it.

[MrBenchley]

40. Nope...I'm laughing my ass off at the desperation

Now you guys are trying to pretend "faith based" equals Republican....after your attempt to pretend Ms. Young's group was pro-gun fell on its ass.

[alwynsw]

43. What attempt?

I simply pointed out that she did not call for additional laws. If you chose to read that as me painting her group as pro RKBA, you chose incorrectly.

[MrBenchley]

59. Uh huh

[Superfly]

62. Psssssst...Bench....

take a look right here

[iverglas]

63. me, I just wondered

... why you thought it pertinent to point out "that she did not call for additional laws".

She wasn't discussing gun control laws. She was discussing a government funding program.

If I call the government's funding of food banks in my city a travesty and a shame, have I failed to call for better housing programs? more income support for families? more job training? better student loans?

Well, yeah, I guess I have. I've also failed to announce the time and date, and recite the soliloquy from King Lear.

.

[Superfly]

64. OK...wait for it....wait for it....

[Superfly]

65. Hang on...here it comes....

[MrBenchley]

69. Pathetic and hilarious, isn't it?

[el_gato]

70. a question

the reason people here are pro gun is because we don't want the government to have MORE power. and yet you say glaringly false things like this: "And the only complaint frrom gunn owners has been that these uneleccted crooks aren't shitty and Nazi-like enough." Show me one instance of someone pro-gun on this board that has said anything like this.

[Superfly]

71. ****THERE IT IS!!!****

Can we say "coat-tails", anybody?

[alwynsw]

75. You are indeed a

prognosticator par excellence

[Superfly]

76. *Takes a bow*

Thank you, thank you very much. I accept this award on behalf of all who made it possible....

I don't believe the anti-RKBA crowd has an original thought in their collective heads.

[alwynsw]

78. The phrase

"BB in a box car" comes to mind

[Superfly]

79. Yup...that's a very fair comparison...

[Township75]

80. Too, Too Funny

"collective heads"

it is always collective with them isn't it:)

[Superfly]

81. Ha, ha, ha...

I didn't even notice that. Thank you, sir.

[alwynsw]

82. Damn! I missed it,too!

add punster par excellence to the awards

[Township75]

83. Where did all the anti's go?

?

[alwynsw]

85. To the store, mayhap - for some anti-acid tablets?

[Township75]

87. Too Too funny!

Extra strength "ANTI" tablets I bet.

Damn, you pro gunners are hilarious!

Good one alw!

[Superfly]

86. To their GITN "safe haven"

[Columbia]

88. RKBA party!

Woohoo! :party:

[Township75]

89. WOOOOHOOOOO!!!!!

:toast:
:grouphug:
:party:

[alwynsw]

90. Party! Fiesta! Forever! All night long!

:beer: 'till you :puke: then :beer: some more! :toast:

[beevul]

92. You guys...

totally crack me up.


:toast:

[Superfly]

91. Ohhhh....where oh where did the anti's go?

Oh where oh where did they go?

Everbody sing together!

[Township75]

93. Are you lonesome tonight....

...

[Township75]

94. How Ironic!

Didn't someone post earlier

"Go Ahead And Backdown"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

hmmm...wonder to whom he was referring to

[Township75]

77. So tell us about your plans for Valentine's Day.

.

[alwynsw]

84. A little spinning going on

"travesty and shame" is a phrase not introduced in the article.

As I recall, there was no reference to that phrase or anything akin to it in the article(s) or thread.

I politely await your pedantic prolix pontification of puffery pronto.

[Township75]

72. Hmmmm

are you saying Ms. Young's group was pro gun control? Or did that fall on its ass to like the lies of Bellisiles?

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