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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 06:25 AM
Original message
Democratic lawmakers push to outlaw carrying guns in public
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/politics&id=8069369

State lawmakers Tuesday took another shot at stopping gun owners from carrying unloaded guns in public. They want to make it illegal but gun owners say that would be unconstitutional.

The controversy began when open-carry advocates started gathering in public places like coffee shops and restaurants around California with their unloaded weapons exposed. While perfectly legal, the protest against gun control laws made some passers-by uncomfortable.

"I think that you're asking for trouble if walking around with exposed weapon on your hip," Yvonne Douglas said in January 2010.

The Assembly Public Safety Committee took the first step in banning the practice of open-carry in California for most people, making it a misdemeanor punishable by up to six months in jail and a $1,000 fine.

<more>
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. So can they carry loaded guns in public? n/t
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. It would be challenged and lost, an unnecessary expense
for a state which can't afford the litigation. The obvious compromise would be for Cali to join the other 45 states which have shall issue ccw laws on the books....then no "uncomfortable" feelings, the gun would be hidden from sight...simple..
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. Is there any reason backed by objective data that this should be outlawed?
Moving to open carry has had no effect on crime. We shouldn't determine policy based on your arbitrary and unsupported opinions.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. It worries people and causes police to respond for no reason. No need for it with CCW in place. n-t
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
24. It's not an issue in many places....
why bow to Nervous Nellies elsewhere?
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. Concealed carry in California is "may issue" not "shall issue" ...

At a practical level, the problem with CCW issuance in this state is the sheriffs. They hold the keys to it. City councils also hold the keys because they could demand that the police chiefs they hire issue permits. However these local potentates have various strong motivations to not issue:

Permits are a status thing. There is a deep psychological connection between the right to carry an arm and noble status. In Europe long ago, only the nobility had the privilege of wearing swords. In old Japan, that privilege was reserved for the samurai class. There's some deep link between wearing arms and nobility. Sheriffs use this fact as a way to reward the right people. They do not have any motivation to give that up.

Issuing gun permits does not win broad political support in anti-gun liberal big cities.

While rank-and-file cops are generally pro-gun / pro-CCW (they know all too well that they can't be everywhere), even in big cities here, the fact is that many of them also earn lucrative hourly rates moonlighting as "drivers". If you want an armed "driver" in SF or LA, you basically must hire an off-duty or retired cop. These are high-paying, easy, somewhat glamorous gigs. Easy CCW issuance would end all these gigs by allowing a lot of other people to carry guns.
http://old.californiaccw.org/forums/list.page


If California had "shall issue" concealed carry, you wouldn't see people openly carrying unloaded firearms in public.

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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. Your premise about O.C. doesn't really hold true in places that already have both avenues legal.
Edited on Wed Apr-13-11 03:38 PM by PavePusher
Granted O.C. is in the minority, but it is a growing trend and, despite what some people here claim, does not seem to have had a negative effect anywhere.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
43. Why should unjustified worries influence policy?
If it has no discernible effect on crime than there is no reason to oppose it.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. Nothing hurts the CCW movement more than Open Carry. Always bad publicy. n-t
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I disagree
But that's just my opinion
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
7.  Carry CCW causes no bad press. Open does and makes people think more....
Edited on Wed Apr-13-11 08:04 AM by Logical
"anti-gun".

Especially idiots who open carry close to Obama speeches. You think that helped the gun movement with dems??
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I tend to agree.
Edited on Wed Apr-13-11 08:11 AM by benEzra
I don't think OC should be banned, but I don't think it is a smart advocacy tactic.

As far as the people OC'ing for the media near Obama events, I personally think that was all about derailing media coverage of Obama's message on health care reform and sucking the media/legislators into a gun control debate instead, a tactic that unfortunately worked all too well.

If California passed CHL reform with shall-issue licensure instead of class/influence based licensure, the open carry movement in CA would undoubtedly have a lot less steam.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I would support a national CCW law and be willing to compromise by removing....
all Open Carry. But I am in the "pro-gun" minority I know.

The NRA types will not give up anything. Even reasonable stuff.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. One problem with banning all open carry nationwide
Edited on Wed Apr-13-11 11:03 AM by benEzra
is that there are times and places where open carry is appropriate; not all of the country is a shopping mall or urban street, and not all activities involve going to crowded places. When I am taking my daughter stargazing at night in the National Forest here, I'll likely carry a less concealable pistol, for example (e.g., 5906 instead of 3913) and concealment is irrelevant in that circumstance. Also, I can envision a few situations in which I'd want to have the option of legally open carrying. Nor are people as paranoid about guns in (say) rural Maine, Vermont, or eastern NC as they are in (say) Madison or Sacramento.

Nor do I think national CCW is a good idea, personally. The states do a very good job with recognizing each others' licenses as it is, so all national licensure would do would be to allow states like CA/IL/NJ, with restrictions that are extreme by national standards, to set carry policy in my state, and I don't see how that helps anyone at all. I'd be OK with simply enforcing the 2ndA and equal-protection clauses of the Constitution, and let states set their own details within those parameters and work out the reciprocity thing themselves.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. I agree. CCW at a national level gives the Federal government ...
too much power to pass restrictions and regulations over time that would limit concealed carry to the rich, the famous and the well connected. It's best to keep concealed carry at the state level and work to get similar requirements for concealed carry laws in all the states.
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. With a national reciprocity
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Exactly...I should have added that. Thanks (n/t)
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
22. Sorry, that would be an unacceptable "compromise".
Try that sort of thing with any other Civil Right, and watch the heads pop.
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. That's odd
I've been OCing for a couple of years and I've never been MWAG'd
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Always a first time... ;)
Hasnt happened to me eithef
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. Except that a CCW is very difficult to get in many parts of Cali....
And Civil Rights do not, generally, require government permission.

Openly carrying books around really hurts the hidden speech movement, and is just bad publicity.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
10. So now you're scared of unloaded guns, publicly displayed?
I suppose the only guns you're comfortable with are carried by people wearing jackboots?
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Leave your guns at home.
Being in public really isn't that scary for most people.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. This is often a hard concept for the anti-gun types to grasp but
you don't get to determine what rights others are "allowed" to exercise.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Kinda like smoking, huh?
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Kinda very different
one is in the constitution specifically, the other is not.

Likewise I can have a gun and threaten no one near me.

You cannot smoke without harming those next to you.

Chewing tobacco would be a better analogy.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. What guarantee do you offer for my security....
and what will your liability be if (when) your guarantee fails?
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I have to guarantee your safety now?
Edited on Wed Apr-13-11 11:56 AM by WatsonT
I didn't realize that was my job.

Call the cops for that.

And should I kill you the punishment would be the same.

What guarantee for my safety do you make when you get in a car, what happens when you fail? Because going by the numbers you're far more likely to kill someone with your car than a legal gun owner is to kill someone with his gun.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. If you wish to restrict my personal defensive options....
you have to compensate me somehow.

What is your offer?
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. How exactly am I restricting your personal defensive options?
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. Oops, I think we're crossing coms, here.
Edited on Wed Apr-13-11 01:08 PM by PavePusher
I was origonally replying to RC: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=400792&mesg_id=400858

Didn't realise it was you that replyed to my response.

Am I making any sense?
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Yeah I halfway assumed it was misplaced
wanted to make sure though. Your response confused me otherwise.

No worries, happens all the time.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Not to ME, it doesn't...
:sarcasm:
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. The police ARE NOT responsible for an individual citizens safety ...
Edited on Wed Apr-13-11 01:19 PM by spin

No one but you is responsible for your safety
Published: May 17, 2010 3:00 a.m.

Who is responsible to protect you from crime and, specifically, from violent crime?

Many believe police and sheriff’s deputies are responsible for protecting citizens from crime and violent crime. They are not.

The United States Supreme Court has repeatedly and consistently held police have no constitutional obligation or any other legal obligation to prevent citizens from being victims of violent crime, with the most recent case being Town of Castle Rock, Colo., v. Gonzales.

Although the police have no duty to prevent violent crime, essentially every police officer will do everything possible in response to a “priority 1” call to stop an assault, rape, burglary, murder or attempted murder. The problem is, in spite of the finest police efforts, they usually arrive too late to prevent violent crime.
http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20100517/EDIT05/305179996/1021/EDIT


Note: the above article is worthwhile reading as it gives advise on practicing situational awareness, a tactic I've often mentioned here.



No Right to Police Protection in the United States

The courts have decided that you have no right to expect the police to protect you from crime! Incredible as it may seem, the courts have ruled that the police are not obligated to even respond to your calls for help, even in life threatening situations! To be fair to the police, I think that many, and perhaps most, officers really do want to save lives and stop dangerous situations before people get hurt. While case law dates back to the early 1960's, a leading case on the topic is Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981) when the Court stated "fundamental principle of American law is that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." In fact, the first precedent established by the United States Supreme Court regarding protecting citizens dates back to the late 1930's in the case of Erie Railroad Co. Vs. Tompkins, 304 U.S. 64, 82 L.Ed. 1188) when the Court stated "there is no federal general common law. Congress has no power to declare substantive rules of common law applicable in a state whether they be local in their nature or 'general,' be they commercial law or a part of the law of torts. And no clause in the Constitution purports to confer such a power upon the federal courts." The seminal case establishing the general rule that police have no duty under federal law to protect citizens is DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services (109 S.Ct. 998, 1989; 489 U.S. 189 (1989)). The court in DeShaney held that no duty arose as a result of a "special relationship," concluding that Constitutional duties of care and protection only exist as to certain individuals, such as incarcerated prisoners, involuntarily committed mental patients and others restrained against their will and therefore unable to protect themselves.

Yet, gun rights opponents rarely, if ever, speak of these precedents but citizens need to be aware that they have every right to self defense and to protect themselves. Some states have passed state statutes that reiterate that citizens have no right to police protection. Such is the case of California's Government Code, Sections 821, 845, and 846, which state in part: "Neither a public entity or a public employee may be sued for failure to provide adequate police protection or service, failure to prevent the commission of crimes and failure to apprehend criminals." Citizens injured because the police failed to protect them can only sue the State or local government in federal court if one of their officials violated a federal statutory or Constitutional right, and can only win such a suit if a "special relationship" can be shown to have existed, which DeShaney and its progeny make it very difficult to do. The most recent case, Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) was a 7-2 decision by the United States Supreme Court that provided that a town and its police department could not be sued under 42 U.S.C. §1983 for failing to enforce a restraining order, which had led to the murder of a woman's three children by her estranged husband. Luckily, there is a little known law known as the "Castle Doctrine." The "Castle Doctrine" is an American legal doctrine that arises from English Common Law that designates one's place of residence (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as one's car or place of work) as a place in which one enjoys protection from illegal trespassing and violent attack. It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his/her "castle"), and/or any other innocent persons legally inside it, from violent attack or an intrusion which may lead to violent attack. The "Castle Doctrine" also has a lengthy beginning dating back 1895 in the case of Beard v. U.S. (1895). This is sometimes called the "Stand Your Ground" doctrine and states that a man who was "where he had the right to be" when he came under attack and "...did not provoke the assault, and had at the time reasonable grounds to believe, and in good faith believed, that the deceased intended to take his life, or do him great bodily harm...was not obliged to retreat, nor to consider whether he could safely retreat, but was entitled to stand his ground." Many states have statutes of 'No Duty to Retreat" regardless of where the attack occurs.

As of the 28th of May, 2010, 31 States have some form of Castle Doctrine and/or Stand Your Ground law. Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virginia and Wyoming have adopted Castle Doctrine statutes, and other states (Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington) are currently considering "Stand Your Ground" laws of their own. An aggressor whose victim fights back in self-defense may not invoke the doctrine of self-defense against the victim's legally justified acts.
http://m.hg.org/law-articles/20903/No_Right_to_Police_Protection_in_the_United



Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone
By LINDA GREENHOUSE
Published: June 28, 2005


WASHINGTON, June 27 - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

The decision, with an opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia and dissents from Justices John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, overturned a ruling by a federal appeals court in Colorado. The appeals court had permitted a lawsuit to proceed against a Colorado town, Castle Rock, for the failure of the police to respond to a woman's pleas for help after her estranged husband violated a protective order by kidnapping their three young daughters, whom he eventually killed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html


edited because I felt I was replying to another poster.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. If we followed your advice then you would tell us to get rid of the guns in our homes ...
Edited on Wed Apr-13-11 12:51 PM by spin
I suspect from reading your posts that you favor gun bans and confiscation of all firearms but you are intelligent enough to realize that this is impossible unless accomplished by one small step followed by another.

If I'm right, I can only say that the incremental approach to gun confiscation has a long history of failure.

Perhaps it's time to give up your own irrational fear of firearms and the people who legally own and carry them. Criminals and people with severe mental problems misuse firearms. It's my suggestion that you would more productive spend your time trying to get future gun control laws to focus on those who should never be allowed to own firearms rather than people who own and use them in a responsible manner.

edited for typos
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
12. be kind of silly carrying an unloaded gun....ban the practice, make them carry loaded.
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Remmah2 Donating Member (971 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Unloaded gun = club.
Ban clubs.
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Better it be loaded
Than have them fumble trying to load it in an emergency
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Or stolen by some criminal who needs a firearm. (n/t)
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
28. And now for election results
Every state Democrat running for re-election was defeated in Tuesdays general election. Political analysts all agree that it was a referendum on the recent vote banning the carry of unloaded guns in public. Lawmakers saw this as a first step in banning the practice of open-carry in California but instead were voted out of office by the constituents whose 2nd amendment rights they were screwing over.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
29. "A gun in a public setting has to be viewed by a police officer as a threat" ...
Such an attitude shows that the police officer has a distrust of all citizens and believes in an authoritarian style of government which does not describe the nation our founding fathers envisioned when they ratified our Constitution. Had they desired to have a government that lived in distrust of its citizens, they would have never accepted the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights. California gun owners are correct when they say that a law that would stop honest people from carrying would be unconstitutional.

The founding fathers would also object to the concept of requiring that all firearms carried in public should be unloaded.


As Thomas Jefferson said:
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

George Washington said in an address to the first session of Congress:
"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." (Address to 1st session of Congress)

James Madison wrote in Federalist Paper #46:
""Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose rulers are afraid to trust them with arms."

Alexander Hamilton wrote:
"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed" (The Federalist Papers at 184-8)

Source for quotes http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Founding_fathers_quotes_on_guns#ixzz1JQOHZdfh



I have talked to a number of police officers in Florida and have yet to encounter one who felt that allow licensed citizens to carry concealed firearms was a foolish idea that should illegal. I have never talked to one officer who had any problems with a person who misused a firearm and had a concealed weapons permit.

At this time in Florida, open carry is illegal although a new law currently moving through the state legislature may change this. If the law passes a person with a concealed weapons permit will have the option of carrying a loaded firearm openly.










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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. +1
thanks for the excellent post.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-11 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Thanks for your support. (n/t)
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