7 Dutch dead in mall murder. Guess what the Dutch NRA does?

[Betty Karlson]

Last Saturday, 7 Dutch were mass-murdered in Alphen aan den Rijn. The shooter was a young male using a semi-automatic weapon and a handgun.

Well, I suppose we all know that men between 20 and 30 are most prone to engage in violence during a recession - it's something about losing all faith in society and politics.

The mayor, the prime-minister, the queen, they all grieve with the families of those who died just four days ago. No-one has been calling for any alteration of the gun laws, because all reserve judgement.

Until today. Guess what the KNSA (The Dutch counterpart of the NRA) just announced?

They have a plan to attract more young members - recruiting children as young as twelve AT SCHOOL by giving them a free shooting lesson. Because the membership numbers are dropping, you see? They need to attract more young members. Otherwise they would go out of existence in a generation.

The mall mass-murder in Alphen was "no reason to change their plans". Nor to announce them at a later time.

The word revolting comes to mind.

Dutch school principals have the authority to shove the door in anyone's face, at any time. It is my sincere hope that all principals will do the right thing, and tell the KNSA to go to H***.

[villager]

1. dutifully unrecc'd by the NRA acolytes here

...for whom atrocity is simply an occasion to launch more pro-gun snark...

[Betty Karlson]

2. Shall I cross-post it to general discussion then?

[pacalo]

4. Yes.

[petronius]

65. That's a laughable complaint, coming from you (nt)

[pacalo]

3. Wow. This is disturbing.

[hlthe2b]

5. Yeah.. not like our NRA holding their convention 9 days & 20 miles

from the site of the Columbine Massacre, doubling down on their efforts to fight any closing of gunshow loopholes and launching their wholesale demonization of any Columbine family members who would later deign to suggest some gun control legislation might be appropriate.

Yeah, good thing our NRA isn't like that..... :eyes:

[YllwFvr]

6. Would you mind explaining

The loophole for me

[naaman fletcher]

7. What is the gun-show loophole?

Will you describe it please? Are gun dealers somehow selling at gun shows without running background checks?

[Hoyt]

23. Yep they are. They are using every loophole to sell and promote more guns.

[cleanhippie]

24. WRONG!

Licensed gun dealers are required to perform background checks and follow all applicable laws. There are no loopholes.


You have (purposely?) misconstrued licensed gun dealers with individual, private sellers.

Now, here come the insults...

[Hoyt]

26. What about unlicensed dealers, and licensed dealers who know the purchasers is a kook?

There have been a spate of recent busts of LICENSED gun dealers selling out the back door.

[cleanhippie]

28. There are no "unlicensed dealers".

There are licensed dealers and private sellers. If a private seller exceeds what is allowed, they are breaking the law and we have existing laws to prosecute them.

As for dealers "selling out the back door" and knowingly selling to straw purchasers, it happens, yes, but is rare, and again, there are existing laws to prosecute those that do that.
Can you provide examples of licensed dealers knowingly selling to straw purchasers and "selling out the back door"?

[Hoyt]

29. Unlicensed "dealers", "sellers" -- who cares. Guns are sold without background checks.

Then, you have you guys who buy guns, etc. and sell them to someone on the street -- informal gun shows.

Doesn't matter -- gun shows aren't well regulated and the gypsy "dealers" move on and no one is going to watch them.

As to examples of selling to "straw purchasers" -- scan through the topics in the gungeon. I'm sure you have posted on some of those threads.

[RSillsbee]

32. I bought all but 2 of my guns

private sale no background check (not at a gun show) BFD

[Hoyt]

33. So, we don't know whether you meet requirements to own a gun -- do we? Too easy.

You sound proud/happy describing just how easy it is for a kook/criminal/terrorist (not necessarily you) to get a gun.

[cleanhippie]

40. As I stated before, opening the NICS to private sellers would solve this problem.

Its something we ALL agree on.

[Hoyt]

44. So, when are you going to call up your reps and say you are a pro-gunner in support of that.

It's easy to say here -- but I don't see any legislation being proposed (and supported by the NRA and others).

Only thing I see on this site is people cheering every time someone gets shot, wanting unrestricted open carry, no restriction on weapons, etc. There are a few reasonable folks, but they don't stick around much.

[cleanhippie]

45. Did that some time ago. In fact, I make it a point to contact my Reps, especially when they are

on the always losing, anti-gun side. Gun control LOSES elections. Period.

[rrneck]

46. You haven't shown any evidence

of having attained the requirements to vote.

[Hoyt]

48. Actually I have and I don't whine because they won't allow me to pack at the polls.

[cleanhippie]

59. Really? What proof was required?

What evidence did you have to provide?

[rrneck]

76. you don't need a gun to vote

[RSillsbee]

53. I have a CHP which means I passed a stricter back ground check

than just to buy a gun. It's pretty well established that criminals don't look through the classifieds and buy guns that way they either steal them or buy stolen ones, or get someone who can pass a check (every thing I just listed is criminal BTW) to buy for them.

You are never ever going to pass a law requiring background checks on private sales because it won't work w/ out registration (otherwise known as the third rail)

In Colorado you must fill out a 4473 for any gun purchased at a gun show. It isn't a huge inconvenience and if you have cash in hand you can usually get the seller to eat the fee.

The problem is that it's unneccessary because very few(less than 2% ) of guns used in crime come from gun shows.

So what happens is a law is passed, it has zero effect on crime and 5 years later the anti gun forces of evil ( people specifically like you) scream for just one more restrictive law that only effects the law abiding.

As the One eyed fat man has stated, if you think guns are hard to come by off the grid ask your dopeman to get you one

[Euromutt]

118. Couple of corrections to your post there...

The DoJ's research indicated that fewer than 2% of prison inmates who'd used a firearm in the crime for which they'd been convicted bought it from a gun show or flea market themselves. This does not rule out the possibility of a trafficker acquiring guns at a gun show in one state, transporting them across several states, and then selling them on the black market, possibly via a local intermediary. Thing is, even according to the ATF, even at gun shows, the bulk of such purchases are made from FFLs (and are thus subject to NICS checks), generally using straw purchasers, which means that such purchases are, legally speaking, no different from sending a straw purchaser into an FFL's regular store.

[RSillsbee]

125. I see the difference thank you for squaring that away NT

[cleanhippie]

35. Hoyt, you are ignoring the rights of individuals to sell personal property.

Individual sellers can sell their property (gun, car, TV, whatever) without restriction. That is a right. So there is a big and very distinct difference between a licensed dealer and a private seller. A gun show simply provides a venue from which a private seller may use to sell their private property.
I, and most of the other Pro-2A members, are strong supporters of opening up the NICS (background check system) to private individuals so that they mat be able to ensure that a potential buyer is legally able to own a firearm. Current law allows on licensed dealers to have access to the NICS, hence the so-called "gun show loophole." Its not a loophole, its a restriction on the system. Simply allowing private sellers to access the NICS will close the "loophole."
As for straw purchasers, there is a form that buyers must fill out and sign when purchasing from a licensed dealer that states that they are purchasing the gun for themselves. There is no way to know if they are lying. Straw purchases do happen, but it is a rare occurrence.

[Hoyt]

47. No one should have a right to sell a gun without a background check -- same as a bomb IMO.

Private sellers are one of the way guns get in the hands of criminals. I appreciate what you say, but I'm confident most private sellers will hand over the gun to anyone offering them a big profit -- just like corporate thieves that could not care less about society when it comes to their bank account.

Heck, there are videos of a purchaser saying "I doubt I'd pass a background check" while the private seller at a gun show displays a chit-eating grin and hands the gun over with some bullets so they can walk out the door with a loaded weapon. And, most pro-gunners upon seeing such videos, just whine because it was a "setup."

As to the "straw purchasers" -- most dealers don't care. As long as they've got a piece of paper he'd sell to Pancho Villa and laugh about it.

[rl6214]

50. "IMO"

Good thing yours isn't the opinion that counts.

Those videos are edited pieces of shit.

[Hoyt]

52. LMAO, Yea, it didn't happen. Give me a break.

[cleanhippie]

56. It did not happen the way those videos portray it happening.

Its dishonest (and illegal) James O'Keffe style "journalism". No credibility.

[Hoyt]

66. I knew it -- the crooked/immoral sellers who sold to an admitted kook were "setup." Don't think so.

Another example of how pro-gunners can't be trusted to follow the letter of the law, much less the spirit. Their motto -- "I got my money, so who cares who they kill."

[cleanhippie]

74. You KNEW it was a set up to begin with?

SO whats your point?

[Hoyt]

87. Setup? All the seller had to do is say "on second thought, I'll hold on to it." He just smiled

a chit eating grin, took the money and probably went on to some other unsavory activity. Yet, we have folks whining about a "setup" -- like the seller never would have done that if it wasn't a setup. Ha. Probably increased his take as more people who couldn't pass a background check flocked to him.

[gejohnston]

89. what was edited out

was the seller asking "why do you say that" or "screw off" I saw the video on Rachel Maddow. Saw it on You tube. Did not see anyone walking out the door with the gun. I did email the youtube link to BATFE to report a possible crime.

[Hoyt]

94. I'll give you credit for reporting it. Thanks. I wish a lot more would too.

[gejohnston]

123. before you say that

I also emailed the link where Bloomburg bragged to Rachel that he paid these guys, so I was reporting him for being facilitating a straw purchase and being the true buyer. It is a federal crime to sell Bloomburg a gun in Arizona, or anywhere else outside of New York.

[David West]

136. It's disingenuous reporting.

They do their best to frame the "Yeah I don't think I could pass a background check" comment as a joke in order to elicit the proper non-response from the seller. Notice how the seller just chuckles? The guy makes a joke out of it, he wasn't seriously insinuating to the guy that he'd been convicted of, say, felony assault with a deadly weapon.

And considering how many different convictions (many of which shouldn't even be illegal to begin with) can keep people from owning firearms, I wouldn't necessarily even be upset with the people if they DID sell a gun to someone who couldn't pass a background check.

[cleanhippie]

55. "As to the "straw purchasers" -- most dealers don't care." Really? Care to prove that?

Methinks you are overstating some anecdotal evidence.

[Hoyt]

67. Not, much doubt in my mind. You probably know it too, but apparently you are in the business.

[cleanhippie]

73. So that is a "No, I cannot provide support for my assertion"?

Thats what I thought.

And I have no idea what the rest of your nonsensical post even means. Surely, its some kind of insult, right?

[David West]

137. The ATF doesn't seem to care much about straw purchases either...

[gejohnston]

61. ask yourself this

If they were real unedited, Bloomburg and crew committed a crime by not reporting it to BATFE, it is called accessory to a crime. As it is, Bloomburg paid some guys to go to states that he (Bloomburg)can not legally buy a gun, which is anywhere outside of NY. That is a straw purchase. When the PI filled out the ATF form 4473, (in some of his stunts in VA) the PI lied to the dealer and on the form. That is a federal crime. BATFE has had at least one "come to Jesus" talks with him on these issues.

[Euromutt]

119. Not quite

Bloomberg's agents were PIs resident in and licensed in Arizona, and Bloomberg didn't pay them to buy a gun and then deliver it to him, so no crime was committed. In essence, Bloomberg paid them for the video footage of them buying a gun, and as long as the PI buyer kept the gun, it was all legal.

[rl6214]

42. Well there are licensed car dealers and unlicensed dealers (sellers)

Next time you want to sell a car or refrigerator or WHATEVER you need to go through the proper dealer and pay the proper fees and taxes. In fact you cannot sell any of your private property yourself, you must go through some sort of dealer or government agency.

[Hoyt]

49. We are talking about guns here, not refrigerators. But thanks.

[cleanhippie]

57. No, we are talking about the right to buy and sell private property . But thanks.

The solution has already been offered to you.

[Hoyt]

68. So, I suppose you'd sell a gun to a known violent criminal. How about bombs? Stolen property?

[cleanhippie]

75. How am I to know if they are a known voilent criminal? Thats a strawman.

I do not have access to the NICS.

[Hoyt]

84. You don't care. As long as you make a profit, it doesn't matter what the buyer does.

Gonna have to deal with this issue sooner or later. You guys who have been building weapons cache are going to start selling them off to increasing violent purchasers. Should require gun sales to go through FFL and then watch the heck out of them.

[cleanhippie]

90. You are totally fabricating a situation and have no idea what you are talking about.

I see we are the point where you seem to feel the need to make up more bullshit.

done with you and your childish, ignorant shit.

[rl6214]

103. Wow it just keeps getting deeper and deeper

talk about conspiracy theories. Next thing you know you'll have a show on tv or writing fiction novels.

[Starboard Tack]

86. Nice slither there. But there are no loopholes. LOL

[rl6214]

58. doesn't matter

my property, my sale unrestricted.

[Hoyt]

69. Nope, not if you know it was a criminal. Just like selling bombs.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoyt]

96. Beat the heck out of me. I will say that a few have proposed tighter controls, but not many.

[gejohnston]

93. I don't know any criminals

do you?

[Hoyt]

97. I know folks who shouldn't be in possession of a gun, just haven't been caught yet.

[rl6214]

105. why don't you turn them in

condoning criminal behavior?

[rl6214]

104. where do you keep coming up with this bs?

It just keeps getting deeper and deeper. Making stuff up as you go along.

[Starboard Tack]

88. No loophole there

What the heck are you doing? Selling indiscriminately to potential "bad guys" who you might have to defend yourself against tomorrow? I trust you understand the expression, "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face!"

And you're smug about it. Unfuckingbelievable.

[rl6214]

106. Posting on the internet? What the hell are you doing?

You are a potential pedophile. May as well turn yourself in today.

I sold a rifle today. The rifle I sold is going to a FFL in Georgia. It will be transfered legally so I know I won't have to defend myself against him tomorrow.

And talk about smug? YOU are unfuckingbelievable, knowing nothing about me but real quick to make a judgement call about me.

[oneshooter]

112. Give him a chance and he will lie about you too. n/t

[gejohnston]

122. If you see gypsy dealers

you are obligated to report them to the BATFE.

[Hoyt]

30. Here's a link to "anti-gun" site where you can watch videos. I know, the "sellers" were tricked.

Poor babies, tricked by out-of-staters into selling guns to folks who flat out told them they "probably couldn't pass a background check." Might not be strictly illegal, but it's immoral, wrong, and symptomatic of how many pro-gunners feel/act. It should be illegal. And gun shows ought to be banned, or more strictly regulated.

http://www.gunshowundercover.org/

[gejohnston]

63. Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

and if you were a right winger, you would swear that O'keefe was honest and Fox really is fair and balanced. The perfect example of the anti's intellectual dishonesty is the use "gun deaths" duping everyone in thinking that it is the same is murder. We have more gun deaths, most of which are suicides, than Brazil or Mexico. The reality is that Brazil's murder rate is fives ours. Mexico's is higher than ours. They both have stricter gun laws than anywhere in Europe or Australia. We may have more gun deaths, but we are 24th in murder and violent crime. 1-23 have stricter gun laws.

[Hoyt]

71. Are you talking to your bore? Who cares if we are 1st of last. Guns don't belong in public.

[gejohnston]

80. City people

should not own SUVs either, but I don't have the right to shove it down society's throat without compelling interest. Like I said before, if you have to be dishonest push your cause, your cause is not worth fighting. You are free to your opinion, but there is a difference between slim chance and clear danger. For example, the lady being stalked by crazy abusive ex husband is a clear need. Since I am the slim to nil chance, I don't carry.

[naaman fletcher]

31. You are wrong.

gun dealers must always run background checks. learn the facts before you spout off.

[benEzra]

9. Ummm...not to rain on anyone's hatefest here,

but the NRA canceled all their activities in Colorado that year except for the annual business meeting that they were required by law to hold, as I understand it. There may have been a breakfast or something that wasn't canceled as well, but the convention was most definitely canceled.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml

NRA curtails convention

In a letter to NRA members Wednesday, President Charlton Heston and the group's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, said all seminars, workshops, luncheons, exhibits by gun makers and other vendors, and festivities are canceled.

All that's left is a members' reception with Rep. J.C. Watts, R-Okla., and the annual meeting, set for 10 a.m. May 1 in the Colorado Convention Center.

Under its bylaws and New York state law, the NRA must hold an annual meeting.

As to the OP, target shooting has long been a fixture in schools around the world, and I suspect that this proposal was in the works long before the recent murders. And if I recall, the shootings weren't carried out by a high school rifle team, not that it matters to the vultures...

[Remmah2]

12. Like they say in Holland.

You can plant tulips on my Heineken.

[Big Al Mac]

14. Nice try, but wrong

From http://www.nrawinningteam.com/meeting99/index.html

"The 128th Annual Meetings were like no other in NRA history. The Littleton, Colorado tragedies, occurring days before the event was to begin, produced a grief-stricken Denver community in need of support. NRA responded by issuing a Colorado-wide notice, announcing the cancellation of all but that legally required under corporate law. "

That decision cost many exhibitors, the NRA, and many other people millions of dollars.

[PavePusher]

16. Right, that meeting hadn't been planned for many months (or years)....

prior to the shooting, or had anything to do with the shooting.

Note that they did scale back all the planned extra-curicular activities associated with it.

And I find your attempt to conflate legal and illegal activities, and hold non-criminals responsible for the actions of criminals, to be thouroughly mendacious, antagonistic and vile.

[slackmaster]

131. Can someone provide a rational explanation of why the NRA should not have held its convention...

...as planned?

[Glassunion]

8. Do you have a link or anything?

So everyone in the country has decided to stop all functions in light of the shooting?

1. I'm sure that the mall is closed.
2. I'm sure that all the banks are closed.
3. I'm sure the government has shutdown.
4. I'm sure all businesses have shut down.
5. I'm sure all schools are closed.

The only group who you call the Dutch NRA is functioning during this crisis. Right?

[oneshooter]

10. Link please? I would like to see the original information source before commenting. n/t

[gejohnston]

11. some points to clarify

A link would be nice. My guess is that the reason no one is calling for altering their gun laws is because it would be seen for what it is, theater. The shooter used a machine gun. Private ownership of machine guns are banned in the Netherlands, and have been for quite sometime. No gun law would have prevented it. Of course in this country, that would not stop right wing opportunists like Brady and Helmke. They would be on the TV shrieking about how easy it is to buy an Uzi or M-60 at Wal Mart. Bloomburg would have a doctored video of a kid leaving a toy store claiming the airsoft was real.
People promote their sport or interest at school all of the time. If it were archery, would it be any different? You think the KNSA are going to teach them how to be mass murders or criminals?

[aikoaiko]

13. So...how do you know about this plan and the motivations begind it?

:shrug:

It sounds like a gun safety initiative planned well before the criminal violence. Are you opposed to teaching gun safety?

[PavePusher]

15. If someone runs into a family at a cross-walk.....

how long should I stop driving for?

Should car clubs stop all their activities? If so, for how long?

Should I driver slower once I can start again? Buy smaller cars or larger cars? More or less powerful cars? Cars that hold fewer people?

Seriously, what are the conditions here?

[Katya Mullethov]

25. No matter what

I think they all need to be wearing a helmet !

[WatsonT]

37. Well in the event of vehicular manslaughter

I think the proper thing to do would be to stop offering training courses in proper car handling and safety.

:sarcasm:

[lawodevolution]

17. Unrec

A driver who intentionally hits a group of bikers does not mean car companies should cancel a car show and it would be idiotic to suggest they should, just as idiotic to claim that a group that promotes law abiding gun ownership should stop functioning and cancel events. The NRA and the Dutch group are legit and do not promote or result in increased crime rates, they work to reduce the incidence rate of mass shootings.

It's perfectly fine for them to announce their plans and have events on any day even if a mass shooting occured just before.

[Logical]

18. Believe me, many pro-gun posters here hate the NRA as bad as you do. n-t

[RSillsbee]

19. Even some anti gun posters who pretend to be pro gun NT

[Logical]

20. If that was a slam directed at me lets talk.....

And you can quit trying to be so clever.

I hate the NRA. But fully support CC. And think many pro-gun people are too extreme. Any other questions?

If you are going to make snide comments at least be willing to back them up.

[jpak]

21. How do you say "moran" in Dutch?

:shrug:

[Hoyt]

27. Zwakhoofd or idioot.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Euromutt]

120. You don't; there's no contextual equivalent

Let me get back to you when some PVV supporter gets himself photographed holding up a sign with a misspelled pejorative.

[gejohnston]

124. PVV?

[Euromutt]

126. Party Voor de Vrijheid - the "Party for Freedom"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_for_Freedom

It's a political party that was formed a couple of years ago, led by Geert Wilders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders), with an agenda that can only be described as populist. Its agenda is primarily xenophobically anti-muslim, and while it describes itself as economically liberal, it's firmly in favor of maintaining (and even expanding) government-funded entitlements. For non-immigrants, that is.

[Glassunion]

22. Found a link...

http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4492/Nederland/article/detail/1875183/2011/04/14/Schietverenigingen-zetten-wervingsactie-door.dhtml

As it turns out the program was 3 years in its planning.

Oh and by the way... The program does not start until the fall. You know... Months from now.

[spin]

34. We should have more firearms training in middle and high school ...

here in the United States.

Some high schools do have air rifle competition which is in my opinion excellent training. Most people have no concept how accurate a quality air rifle can be.

Shooting USA - High School Air Rifle

The shooting sports are alive and well in our high schools. We’ll show you, as we cover the largest high school air rifle match in the country.

It’s the news you never hear anywhere else. The shooting sports are thriving and growing in the high schools across the United States. We’ve shown you the scholastic clay target program that’s getting more high school athletes shooting trap each year, but you likely don’t know that air rifle competition is also a growing sport in high schools. The proof is the largest invitational high school team match in the country.

Mongomery Bell Academy in Nashville, Tennessee hosts the largest high school tournament in the country with 400 competitors from 72 high schools in 16 heartland states.

The format is Olympic style competition with shots taken from a distance of 10 meters. The match is 20 shots from each of three positions—standing, kneeling and prone. 600 is a perfect score, but with the ten ring the size of a period on this page, perfect scores are very unusual, but that’s always the objective in a match.




http://www.shootingusa.com/TV_SCHEDULE/SHOW_27-13/show_27-13.html

[Betty Karlson]

36. Please tell me you didn't mean what you just said? n/t

[PavePusher]

39. Why not?

Are schools not a proper place for skills and safety training of any sort?

[spin]

41. Of course I mean it...

At one time in our nation high school rifle competition was common.

In February of that year, Maj. James E. Bell made a strong request during an NRA Board of Directors meeting, encouraging rifle practice in schools and colleges. He firmly believed that education and training among school-aged boys, would reduce accidents and make for a well-trained soldier, if soldiers were needed. In April of 1903 the NRA executive board sent a letter to the presidents and faculty of New York schools. It explained the need for safety and marksmanship rifle training and asked for rifle practice for youth shooters. The schools then started with basic marksmanship and in the winter of 1904, New York City High Schools began rifle practice and hosted a competition.

The president of the Public Schools Athletic League (PSAL) and co-founder of the NRA, Gen. George W. Wingate, started this competition between four city schools, De Witt Clinton High School, Morris High School, Bronx High School and The Boy’s School of Brooklyn. The four teams each consisted of eight boys, firing five-shot strings using a .22 rifle and a sub-target rifle machine—a marksmanship training device with more than 300 parts and a lofty 1904 price tag of over $200. De Witt Clinton High School took top honors with a score of 377 out of 400, and an individual average score of 431⁄2 out of 50. At the 1905 annual meetings, the NRA suggested implementing a practice course-of-fire for schoolboys. The students could qualify as a sharpshooter, a junior sharpshooter, marksman, and a junior marksman. Students under the age of 15 qualified as a junior marksman and junior sharpshooter.

PSAL started the program under the supervision of Wingate. The qualification course was pretty simple—score 40 out of 50 in one five-string course using a .22 rifle. With local boys qualifying too easily, Gen. Wingate adjusted the score to 42 out of 50 in the spring of 1905, and then to 44 out of 50 in the summer of 1906. Because the number of shooters grew and the program became more successful, the first NRA-sponsored schoolboy .22-rifle competition was held in Creedmoor, NY, on Jul. 26, 1906. The boys, in teams of five—from De Witt Clinton, The Boy’s School of Brooklyn, Curtis, Commercial, Manual Training, and Stuyvesant—used the sub-target machine while the boys from St. John’s Military School shot without it.

***snip***

The NRA received final approval from the executive board for funding the program in 1908 and offered the first NRA Schoolboy medals, which included the Collegiate Rifle Club, the School-Boy Rifle Club, and Junior Marksman indoor and outdoor. The program continued to grow through the mid 1900s. By 1914, 3,956 schoolboys were enrolled and affiliated with the NRA. But they faced the same problems that we experience today—facility limitations. While setting up the rifle qualifications, the youth clubs only found ranges that offered 200 yards outdoors while others only had 50 feet indoors. The NRA decided the best way to make sure the .22-rifle program grew successfully, was to offer two different courses-of-fire, indoor and outdoor. The indoor course was 10 shots standing and 10 shots prone at 50 feet, and the outdoor course was the same course-of-fire, except set at 200 yards.
http://www.nrainsights.org/his_100counting.php

One sport that can be considered politically incorrect to teach you today is that of shooting sports, particularly rifle competition; but taught with respect, rifle competition indeed is a worldwide sport, even an Olympic sport. Rifle competition was offered at St. Rita between 1964 and 1968, moderated by Fr. Joseph O'Malley and Br. Joseph Fisher. The group competed against such clubs as Downer's Grove, Morton Grove, Villa Park, DePaul ROTC, Lawndale Boys Club, Southtown YMCA and the University of Chicago club. St. Rita was serious about rifle and Fr. O'Malley eventually became a state certified rifle instructor; St. Rita held the 1965 NRA Junior Sectionals. The Rifle Club work with the Southtown YMCA. from which it would borrow rifle equipment and access a shooting range.

Text taken from St. Rita of Cascia High School, Centennial Rememberance. 2005 by Richard P. Bessette
http://cache.ihigh.com/strita/section_61.html

I suggested using air rifles for training and competition. An air rifle can be lethal but is far less powerful than a .22 caliber rifle. The basic rules of firearm safety apply to air rifles as well as firearms.

Out of curiosity, are you opposed to the idea and if so, why.

[Betty Karlson]

62. My main problem with guns

is that proper training should only be issued if the following conditions apply:

a) that there is community enthousiasm for the "thing"
b) that said community is not a dense population.

Both criteria are not met in the Netherlands, a very densely populated country. Most Dutch schoolchildren have a very responsible attitude toward guns: I don't want one - which impedes any use of the things, responsible or otherwise. To start a recruitment drive ("or else we'll go out of business") sounds supremely egotistic, especially at a time like this.

Allowing a relatively free acquisition of guns (after popular demand) in a densely populated area (like an inner city) only increases the chance of a loony getting his hands on one, and it's just a matter of time before you run into him/her.

Having a gun, and knowing how to operate one, is useful when you live in a remote rural part of the USA: it will take the police an hour to get to you.

In the Netherlands, even the remotest village will see police arriving within 22 minutes after the call is made, and usually in half that time. Speaking for myself, I'd see an officer within ONE minute after making the call (I live six miles from Alphen aan den Rijn). Encouraging people to wave a gun in the meantime simply ddoesn't make sense. Why do you think that whole NKSA is threatened with extinction anyway?

I'm not advocating against gun ownership in Little Remote Settlement, Midwestern State. I'm livid over the announcement of a plan to recruit impressionable children aged twelve, five days after a mass murder, in Urban Area, One of the Most Densely Populated Countries in the World.

[gejohnston]

78. in Europe it is more

about target/sport shooting. Everyone likes to support their sport, you think it is egotistical only because you don't like shooting sports. If the conditions were same but different sport, I doubt you would object. It has nothing to to with "waving" or other issues that does not matter there. Since the shooter had a machine gun, I fail to see what amounts to high tech fencing or archery has anything to do with the tragedy. As the article said, the class does not start until the fall and has been planned for three years. Sorry, your objection is not logical. I also think it is egotistical of you to tell the Dutch people, the kids (or their parents) what sport they should take part in.

[Betty Karlson]

107. Oh no it isn't.

egotistical is to say "I don't care about the dead, we need new members".

Saying "there are plenty of sports that don't involve deadly weapons" isn't even telling "what sport to engage in", but rather telling what NOT to engage in - which comes under the same heading as "no Thai kickboxing" (also outlawed in the Netherlands). And I support that decision as well.

And saying "don't announce at this time plans for recruitment for sports involving deadly weapons", takes it even further from your accusation.

[gejohnston]

121. who announced it?

Who announced it? I doubt the gun club did if it was in the works for three years. I think it is safe to assume that the school administrators knew about it during the past three years and have been part of the process. My guess is that it was a slow news day and some editor decided to put print it by coincidence. OK so where do you get off on telling them what not to engage in? That is a distinction without a difference. I take it you are not a fan of archery either. As far as Thai kickboxing goes, if two consenting adult humans want to beat each other senseless, that is their problem (although I support our license system where it is authorized by an MD.) Notice I said just humans.

[Betty Karlson]

127. The KNSA, by mouth of a spokeswoman. n/t

[spin]

108. American citizens deserve equal rights whether they live or a rural area or an urban one ...

Many densely populated cities in the United States allow citizens to carry concealed firearms and those licensed gun owners have proved to be responsible and have created no major problems.

Florida has allowed concealed carry since 1987 and I lived in the Tampa Bay area until I recently retired. Many of my co-workers and friends had concealed weapons permits and carried. Three of them actually had occasions where they were able to stop an attack because they were armed. No shots were fired. Many other co-workers and friends owned firearms but had not obtained a concealed carry permit. At least 60% of my co-workers had firearms in their house.

The police response time in the Tampa Bay area was acceptable but not within one minute like you describe. Also the Tampa Bay area is subjected to strong tropical storms and rarely hurricanes. The police will not respond when the winds are too high and may not be able to respond after a storm as the roads are often blocked by fallen trees. During those times you might end up in a situation where the firearm in your home may be absolutely necessary for your defense.

The concept of allowing high school aged children to shoot air rifles in competition and to learn gun safety might actually take much of the allure of firearms away from these children. Firearms are much more fascinating when you only see them on TV, video games and in the movies. If you learn to shoot in a competitive environment, firearms may still be interesting but the student will view them more as sporting instruments rather than killing tools. If they do encounter a firearm (which is likely in a nation with 300 million firearms) they we know enough to not handle if if they are unfamiliar with how to see if it's unloaded and will know if another person handles it if they are being safe and responsible.

Shooting is a very difficult sport but one in which females often excel. Many high school sports favor the tall or the big and shooting offers an opportunity for many students to participate in a competitive team sport who might otherwise never have the chance.

[Betty Karlson]

110. What you say is quite interesting

But you omit one consideration: what if the USE of firearms was only allowed in sparsely populated areas? It doesn't matter where you live, it matters where you use the stuff.

I don't see how restricting gun permmits in densely populated areas would create legal enequity - aren't all Americans free to move in and out of rural areas as they please?

[spin]

113. There are a few outdoor gun ranges in the Tampa Bay area ...

and a number of indoor ranges. If I remember correctly there were laws against using even an air gun in your backyard within the city limits.

[rrneck]

114. The are equally free to move into urban areas.

That's why gun bans in cities like Chicago and Washington DC were such failures.

[PavePusher]

115. Sorry, but in the U.S., "...keep and bear arms..." is a Civil Right....

and we don't apportion Civil Rights by geography.

[Betty Karlson]

128. If that is the case, why is DOMA still retained then?

Look at the civil rights of GLBT people, and dare to repeat that.

[PavePusher]

133. And we're working to fix that....

not perpetuate it.

[Betty Karlson]

135. Tell that to Obama n/t

[Euromutt]

140. DOMA isn't dependent on whether you live in an urban, sub/exurban or rural area

Vile as it may be, DOMA applies everywhere in the United States. It doesn't say "same-sex marriages are okay in San Francisco, Seattle, Boston, NYC, but out of the question in Tahlequa, Oklahoma!"

[slackmaster]

130. Yet another person claiming to be better qualified than others to say what others need

:argh:

[DonP]

54. Uh oh. She's clutching her pearls and about to go all Mrs. Lovejoy on us

Think of the children!

I'm guessing you have no idea how popular shooting teams have been in many high schools for over 70 years. My father shot on one in 1938. Or that many urban school were built with rifle ranges in the basements for winter practice.

Pssst, you're the one out of the mainstream on these issues, not the people here.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gejohnston]

82. I don't know

Don't see many of you at Alternet either.

[Hoyt]

51. Good Idea -- let's allow everyone to carry ONLY single-shot pneumatic guns.

That would solve most of the issues for me. But I doubt it would "satisfy" most gunners -- not enough killing power to get all excited about.

[rl6214]

60. You gonna make sure that's all the criminals have also

Didn't think so.

[Hoyt]

72. If we begin now, our ancestors could be in that position. You guys would freak out during transition

[cleanhippie]

77. And here come the insults. You are a fucking CHILD, Hoyt.

[Hoyt]

83. What do you call your posts. You need to grow tougher skin -- anger and guns don't mix.

But, it is why a lot of folks carry.

[cleanhippie]

91. Total bullshit nonsense. Thanks for proving you have no integrity.

[gejohnston]

92. he is not angry

frustrated. Now put your critical thinking cap on Grasshopper.

[cleanhippie]

98. He doesn't have one.

Lacks any ability to think critically or use factual evidence to support it's assertions. It is one of the most dishonest posters here.

[gejohnston]

79. naw

you will be whining about that too. Besides, is the issue crime and safe streets or some irrational fear and dislike? Since criminal science debunked all of the Brady talking points, my guess is the latter.

[Hoyt]

99. Nope, just known a lot of carriers. Everyone of them should have been denied a permit.

A bunch of them are probably TBag carriers now -- toting for intimidation.

[spin]

109. That's very strange. I know a lot of people who legally carry ...

and none of them caused me any concern. The all are rational, responsible and honest citizens and none have ever had their license revoked.

For some reason, I suspect that your dislike of firearms and those who carry them has colored your viewpoint.

[WatsonT]

38. Um . . .so?

this wasn't a tragedy of proper gun handling and training.

[Starboard Tack]

81. Excellent post

[Tejas]

100. Yup, no need for a link, just drink up.

[Starboard Tack]

101. You really need links? Knock yourself out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphen_aan_den_Rijn_shopping_mall_shooting
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/10/us-dutch-shooting-idUSTRE73925W20110410

[slackmaster]

132. Wow, two links that provide absolutely no support for claims made in the OP

:crazy:

[Euromutt]

95. Tristan van der Vlis used a *machine gun*, not a semi-auto

For the record, under Dutch law automatic weapons are illegal for private citizens to possess (which a very small number of exceptions, such as war museums). Therefore, he had to acquire the weapon illegally to begin with.

As it turns out, Van der Vlis had also been involuntarily committed to a psychiatric institution for ten days in 2006, but Dutch gun laws (which were originally set up to hamper potential political violence) don't provide for such information to be communicated to the police (who are in charge of approving firearms licenses).

I'm actually visiting family in the Netherlands right now, and reading articles in the local press, and the consensus among mental health professionals and psychologists is that it's highly unlikely that any gun law is going to prevent this kind of incident. One article quotes Wilhelm Heitmeyer, a German held to currently be one of the most influential sociologists in Europe, as follows:

Among young people who resort to violence, there exists an intense desire to regain control over their own lives. For years they've asked themselves who needed them, where they belonged, but they received no answers to those for them very important questions. In such circumstances, shooting people in public can give a wonderful feeling of power and self-confidence, because you become the one with the power to decide who lives and who dies. And then you accept the less heroic moment--dying between the checkout lines of a supermarket--into the bargain.

Heitmeyer argues that the Netherlands has simply been lucky that this kind of mass killing hasn't happened sooner (most European countries have had at least one such incident already). He dismisses tightening gun control laws as a distraction from the real issue, which is why people come to feel so alienated that they would feel the need to "show in such a dreadful manner that they matter."

Mental health professionals point out that this kind of incident may very simply be beyond our ability to prevent. Marieke Liem, a criminologist and psychologist, pointed out that after Columbine, it was estimated that the number of male teenagers who were bullied in school, played a lot of video games and showed signs of clinical depression was something in the order to 2.5 million. Given that at most a handful of these will go on to commit an act of mass violence, it's simply not cost-effective to monitor or confine them all, even if you overlook the issue of violating their civil liberties by doing so. Rutger Jan van der Gaag, chairman of the Dutch Association for Psychiatry, points out that there's already a major stigma on admitting to having a psychological disorder, which hampers people from seeking help when they have a problem. He also points out that waiting lists in the Netherlands are simply too damn long: "When someone finally gathers the courage to seek help, the last thing he needs to hear is that he can't be accommodated for another three months."

[friendly_iconoclast]

102. I'd like to thank you and others for ruining the intended emotional impact of the OP

And for pointing out its factual inaccuracies, as well...

[Betty Karlson]

111. Nope

Police announced he carried two weapons into the mall: one handgun, one semi-automatic.

He had a permit for both.

He almost lost the permit for both eight years ago - when he was still in highschool. Illegal possession of weapons.

Case was dismissed over a technicality.

[Euromutt]

116. Got a link?

Initially, the Dutch media were all reporting the weapon used was automatic. I see now they're altering that statement, stating that Van der Vlis used three firearms, all of which he was licensed to own and which were registered to him, which would indeed mean the weapons could not have been capable of automatic fire, but curiously, I'm not seeing too many news outlets owning up to the earlier reports being incorrect.

I don't know where you're getting the illegal possession charge, because the Dutch media don't seem to be mentioning that.

And for the record, I'm currently visiting family in the Netherlands and I speak Dutch, so I'm getting this fairly directly.

[Dr_Scholl]

139. He used an S&W MP-15 22 as his main weapon.

[Euromutt]

117. Actually, what happened is that the news media just found out about the KNSA's campaign

The KNSA was already planning this, but the news media hadn't shown any interest until after the shooting in Alphen a/d Rijn. Moreover, the KNSA's campaign is primarily focused on shooting with air guns, not firearms, as it's illegal for anyone under the age of 16 to handle a firearm, and even over the age of 16 one requires a Verklaring omtrent het Gedrag (a "Declaration concerning one's behavior," i.e. a government-issued affidavit that one does not have a significant history of breaking the law, including but limited to criminal offenses) and, until the age of 18, can only handle firearms while under supervision.

[slackmaster]

129. Automatic Unrec for failure to provide anything to back up claims stated in the OP

Betty, is this some kind of creative writing exercise on your part?

[friendly_iconoclast]

134. I would have gone with '(failed) attempt to gin up moral outrage', myself

But that's just cynical old me....

[Atypical Liberal]

138. I know it's fun to bash the NRA.

I know it's fun to bash the NRA, but this is about the KNSA. I don't believe the NRA is associated with the KNSA in any way, other than being just another group of shooting enthusiasts.

I don't have any problems with free shooting lessons being offered at school. Even the day after a shooting crime. I don't see why the actions of lawful people should have any connection to the actions of lunatic criminals. It is as if to say that the lawful, upstanding activity of learning how to responsibly use firearms is somehow connected to the action of the criminal and thus some how "dirty" by association. I can understand that many people only think "gun" and can't differentiate between the two events, but I think it is ridiculous to pander to people that are unable to make the distinction between the two events.

There is nothing wrong with shooting sports nor learning how to shoot. In fact, I personally believe, from extensive experience, that teaching children how to shoot is a fantastic character-building experience. It teaches how to handle serious, deadly responsibility. It teaches discipline and self-control. But most importantly, it de-mystifies firearms and teaches children what to do if they encounter a firearm and how to safely handle them should they need to do so.

My father taught me how to shoot around 8 years old. I got my first rifle when I was around 9. By the time I took the marksman merit badges in Scouting my skill and education levels about firearms were so advanced that the classes seemed remedial to me and of course I aced them. The first time I had to take a hunter safety course I scored a 100% and found the test to be absurdly common-sensible. I've never in my life had an accidental discharge of a firearm, in spite of twice being handed a firearm that turned out to be loaded. This is because I learned at an early age to always assume the firearm is loaded and always check it to be certain that it is unloaded whenever you pick one up or one is handed to you.

Shooting is a fantastic sport that requires good physical control and sharp mental control. It is very fun and personally satisfying when you are up to the challenge. To hold these kinds of wholesome, lawful activities with disdain, fear, or distaste just because some people commit crimes with firearms is unfair at best.

If you are near Huntsville, Alabama I would be happy to take you shooting.