New Provision Put Guns Records Out of Public's Reach

[papau]

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAB61KQMQD.html

Feb 13, 2004

New Provision Put Guns Records Out of Public's Reach
By Robert Gehrke
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The government no longer is releasing records tracking the source of firearms used in crimes, a concession to the gun lobby approved by Congress last month.
The change was enforced for the first time last week when the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives turned down Freedom of Information Act requests made by The Associated Press and others for certain gun records. <snip>

Opponents said the Freedom of Information Act already allows agencies to withhold information gathered for law enforcement purposes or that could compromise investigations. Releasing data is the best way to identify rogue gun dealers, they said.

Some law enforcement groups supported the changes. The Law Enforcement Steering Committee, a group of police organizations, opposed them. <snip>


The media used the data and audits on gun dealers to trace the rifle used in the Washington-area sniper shootings to Bull's Eye Shooter Supply in Tacoma, Wash., which had a history of lost guns.

For Chicago, the trace data are the heart of the city's liability lawsuit against "nuisance" gun dealers, said Benna Ruth Solomon, the head of the city's appeals division. The Supreme Court sent the city's lawsuit seeking the trace data back to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals. <snip>


The FBI Agents Association opposed the 24-hour purge rule, saying it would let improper gun sales slip through the cracks. They cited a report by the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, that 228 of 235 illegal gun sales between July 2001 and January 2002 took more than one day to detect. <snip>



Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives: http://www.atf.gov

Brady Center To Prevent Gun Violence: http://www.bradycenter.org

National Rifle Association: http://www.nra.org

[MrBenchley]

1. Another really scummy move

by the GOP and the corrupt gun industry.

[jhfenton]

2. AP apparently stands for "Anti-gun Propaganda"

The "24-hour purge rule" only applies to purchasers that pass the background check. These people aren't the problem. If a sale is rejected by NICS, then the record may be retained and investigated.

[lcordero]

3. I question the government's motives on this

...a concession to the gun lobby approved by Congress last month.


I have a really big issue with the public not being able to access what gun records do exist for the sole reason that it'll make it unknown that people like Diane Feinstein take guns out of law-abiding citizens's possession while at the same time keeping her gun.

[DoNotRefill]

5. It's no more the public's business what guns I buy...

than it is the Government's business what guns I buy.

[lcordero]

6. You don't get what I am saying

I support the repealing of the Gun Control Act of 1968, the National Firearms Act of 1934, licensing scams, permit scams, gun bans, and almost everything that comes down the pike.

I just view the limiting of access to gun records as an avenue for hypocritical people like Diane Feinstein to practice their hypocracy...having a gun permit while at the same time limiting a person's right to protect themselves and their property.

[CarinKaryn]

8. Do you oppose registration of sex offenders?

Feel like its not the public's businsess where they live?

Many people want to know where the guns are. Registraion is necessary to keep track of who is armed. If you are such a proud gun owner, why do you want to hide that fact?

[FatSlob]

9. I don't think that is a valid point.

There is no similarity except registration. One is registration of criminals, the other of peaceful citizens. Your point would have been much better taken if you had left the obviously inflammatory part about sex offenders out. Anyway, I've made my perfunctory perusal of the gun area, back to the Lounge with me!

[DoNotRefill]

10. Sex offenders have been convicted of a crime...

and that conviction is a matter of public record. Such records can be viewed in courthouses all over the country, provided that the convicted person was 18 or older at the time of the crime.

Legal gun owners have NOT been convicted of a crime (by definition, since conviction precludes legal ownership). Purchase records are legally confidential information, just as a person's tax returns and W-2s are confidential. In the case of class 3 weapons, the registration records are LITERALLY tax documents, and are NOT subject to examination, even by state or local law enforcement. There have been cases where such information has been released, and the people involved in the breach were justifiably prosecuted and convicted of felonies stemming from it, despite the fact that they worked for the Government.

Some people would like to know where all homosexuals live. That doesn't mean it's any of their business, or a matter of public record.

I don't want people knowing how many guns I have for several reasons. First, it's none of their goddamned business, any more than my particular sexual preferences are. Secondly, if such records are available to the general public, it makes my residence more likely to be targeted by thieves. I'd rather not be accused of "baiting my field", if you know what I mean.

[CarinKaryn]

12. Car/boat/plane owners not convicted of crimes...

yet you have no objection to registration of these items, do you? Your arguments fail when we substitute the word "gun" for "car."

Why the big need to hide the fact that you possess an arsenal? It's your proud 2nd Amendment right, correct?

And I understand the reference to "baiting the field." It means you are planning on shooting to kill anyone who tries to steal your vcr, car or popguns. How compassionite of you to protect your families prized possessions in this way.

[FeebMaster]

14. I'd like to

do away with car, boat, and plane registration now that you mention it.

[FatSlob]

16. Another invalid comparison

They are registered because of their use on public roads/waterways/airways. The government could compel registration of firearms that were to be used on public lands, such as at a State Park's shooting range, or for hunting in a National Forest. It chooses not to. Anyway, it could only compel the registration of the particular guns used on the public lands, as a prerequisite of the use of the land. As far as cars/waterways/airways go, the government can not compel registration for cars that never leave the farm, boats that never sail a navigable waterway, or aircraft that are never to leave the ground and fly into the public airway.

[alwynsw]

19. If you check the history of these registrations,

they're there in order to efficiently tax the items mentioned.

[DoNotRefill]

31. Last time I checked....

you can't get records of who owns what cars, boats, or planes, either if you're just a member of the public. It's also tax information.

Regarding the "baiting the field" and shooting people for stealing my shit, nope. If I shot them for trying to steal stuff from my house, I'd obviously be at home when they were doing it, right? At that point, I'm obviously confronting them while they are committing a felony (breaking into a dwelling place to steal is a felony) so I have a reasonable suspicion that both my life and the lives of the rest of my family are in danger, so I have a moral obligation to shoot them. Oh, yeah, I also have a legal right to do so. Now if they're stealing my shit out of my home while I'm not there, how exactly am I going to shoot them? If I'm there, they pose a danger to me. If the house is empty, they can take whatever they want and can get past my dog.

Let me ask you this. Would you want to go to an open balloting system, where everybody knows you voted and who you voted for? After all, exercising your franchise is exercising your rights, dont'cha know....and if the public has a right to know who exercises ONE right, shouldn't they know EVERY right you exercise?

[-..__...]

38. Times have changed.

you can't get records of who owns what cars, boats, or planes, either if you're just a member of the public. It's also tax information.

Used to be the case that anyone could walk into their local DMV with a license plate number and find out who owned the vehicle... no questions asked (as always, differences in state and local laws apply). Problem was, there were cases of stalkers using the info to trace their victims; Rebecca Schaeffer being a notable example. Running plate numbers was, and still is, a favorite tactic of anti-abortion crusaders. As a result, abortion providers and their families have been harassed or threatened at their homes. Not being satisfied with that, the plate numbers of patients entering clinics have also been traced and the car owners harassed.

As someone pointed out, what's the justification of giving the public access to information that criminals/thieves could use to either rob or assault an intended victim? What would prevent current or potential employers from using that info to deny a person a job?

[-..__...]

39. Ever hear of "privacy"?

Why the big need to hide the fact that you possess an arsenal? It's your proud 2nd Amendment right, correct?

Ahhhh, the old "why would you be worried about it unless you had something to hide" chestnut.

Why not place a large sign on ones front lawn listing the contents of valuables kept in the house? Let's make it even more convieniant and include the dates and times when no one is home.

Unless you or anyone else, can provide a valid "need to know" argument that trumps ones rights to privacy, then there is no need to know.

[forgethell]

11. Are you seriously comparing

a law-abiding gun owner to a convicted rapist? How about this: The rapist gets the gun records, finds out that you are NOT armed, and comes to your house for a party? Better to keep this information from the media.

[CarinKaryn]

13. Sorry to burst your paranoid bubble...

but I don't have sick fantasys of using my assault weapon to fight off hordes of rapists.

I feel very comfortable in my home. Sorry you have to live in fear.

[jhfenton]

15. Comfortable in my home

I'm very comfortable in my home. I'm protected by dead-bolt locks on every door. I'm protected by a home-security system. I'm protected by numerous firearms, including my new "assault weapon." I don't waste any time "liv(ing) in fear" worrying about home invaders, but that doesn't mean I'm not prepared.



My MAK-91 actually would not be my first choice as a home defense weapon. It's rather heavy. I prefer a 12ga shotgun loaded with 00 buck.

[CarinKaryn]

18. That picture makes me ill...

...and I don't mean the sight of a gun makes me sick. It makes me sick that you have that in your home. It's like living in a toxic waste dump.

[alwynsw]

20. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Why do you insist on making it more ponderous than it already is to enjoy our 2nd Amendment rights?

edited to add: SO DON'T LOOK AT IT!

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alwynsw]

22. Damn your time, Columbia!

For once in a friggin' blue moon, I had a latte with sugar while perusing the boards. The operative word is had.

Damn good thing I got the liquid resistant keyboard. Now it's just sticky.

edited to add: YOu can be an annoying shit at times. ...making me spit crap all over my puter....WHAT AN ASS!

[Columbia]

33. Hehe

I know you are but what am I? :P

[FeebMaster]

23. I'll say.

Those damnable thumb-hole stocks are disgusting. Who was responsible for those anyway?

[alwynsw]

24. Is that what those holes are for?

[FeebMaster]

25. I forget.

Does the thumb-hole stock enhance the killing power of the weapon or diminish the killing power of the weapon?

[alwynsw]

26. I thought it was a convenience for gun fetishists.

[FeebMaster]

28. I see.

It's all clear to me now.

[alwynsw]

29. Glad to be of service.

Don't ask me to give you a hand with that.

[beevul]

34. McBeevul's hazzardous bylaw.

Seeing as the toxic/hazzardous waste card has been played a bit as of late, I am hereby enacting effective immediately - McBeevul's hazzardous bylaw. In an effort to eliminate the use of the "hazzardous waste card", and in the spirit of the pioneer "McFeebs law", McBeevul's hazzardous bylaw states that any comparison of firearms to hazzardous waste means an automatic loss of the debate in question for the offending party. :evilgrin:

What say you Feeb? Maybe we can make those 2 the start of the ACC? :evilgrin:(Anti-gun Criminal Code):evilgrin:

[alwynsw]

36. Can I have McFries with that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1117878

(and while you're visiting the thread, say ,"Hi!", to the missus, kokofitz. She finally signed on to DU.)

[jhfenton]

40. Thumb-hole stocks...

were a response to the import-ban on pistol-gripped semi-automatic rifles.

Thumb-hole stocks are less than desirable, but to legally put a standard stock and pistol grip on the rifle, I would have to change out 6 parts for US made parts so that no more than 10 parts would be foreign-made. I'm reluctant to do so, because it would mean replacing some of the trigger group, and this thing has a pretty good trigger already.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoNotRefill]

32. What's wrong with living in a toxic waste dump if you want to?

the land prices are CHEAP!!!! ;-)

BTW, while you're getting sick about what he's doing in his home, and while you're working to outlaw such conduct, conducted in the privacy of his home, should we be working to extend the same to you? Does this mean I can put 24 hour webcams in every nook and cranny of your house without your consent? Somebody'd probably pay money to see that...

[FatSlob]

35. I like that gun...

In fact, I used to have one. They are quite accurate and shoot very cheap Russian ammo. The heavy weight reduces the felt recoil...my petite wife felt very comfortable shooting it.

[MrSandman]

37. Well, giving a gun a good home...

keeps it off the street. OTOH, it does look lonely.

[jhfenton]

41. Actually, I rather like my home.

It may be a tad cluttered with our 14-month-old son running around pulling things out of drawers, but it's otherwise clean. And we keep all the toxic chemicals in the detached garage or in the basement.

The MAK-91 normally lives in my gun safe, I just set it out for pictures. I keep pictures and serial numbers in a separate location for insurance purposes.

I'm curious, would you react the same way to a hunting rifle? Perhaps a semi-automatic Remington 7400 in .308Win (aka 7.62NATO)?



The two rifles fire ammunition of the same diameter (7.62mm). The Remington rifle's ammunition is just slightly more powerful.

[alwynsw]

42. Look, Ma!

It's my 30.06's brother!

OK, so I own several .06's. I like the Remington, but the Weatherby is my baby.

[jhfenton]

43. Maybe she doesn't like the bipod or the thumbhole stock? (eom)

[alwynsw]

45. Read posts #23 thru #29

OK, we got a little out of hand.

[Hrumph]

44. You make me laugh. (n/t)

.

[JOE T]

47. Yea Im very comfortable in my home also

Yea my watch dogs keep me safe, but they eat too much..5.56mm that is.
Joe

[alwynsw]

48. Very nice toys!

I'm more of a sporter guy, but I do love my Colts.

Welcome to DU!

[DoNotRefill]

49. Heh....you're sporting a "SHE" gun....

did you keep it in the original caliber or sleeve the chamber to 7.62x39?

[forgethell]

46. I don't live in fear,

I have a gun.

[alwynsw]

17. No validity to that argument

Why register something in the event that it might be used in a crime?

You're talking about keeping track of the possessions of innocent people as opposed to keeping track of a convicted criminal. There's a huge difference.

[DoNotRefill]

4. Heh...

"The media used the data and audits on gun dealers to trace the rifle used in the Washington-area sniper shootings to Bull's Eye Shooter Supply in Tacoma, Wash., which had a history of lost guns."

Indeed? How did it allow the media to do that?

"The FBI Agents Association opposed the 24-hour purge rule, saying it would let improper gun sales slip through the cracks. They cited a report by the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, that 228 of 235 illegal gun sales between July 2001 and January 2002 took more than one day to detect."

Apples and oranges. The 24 hour purge rule only applies to APPROVED transfers. If a transfer is NOT approved, it doesn't get purged, it gets worked on until it's either approved or disapproved. If it's approved later, it gets purged, but if it's disapproved, it doesn't, it is supposed to be turned over to the appropriate authorities for prosecution.

[Baclava]

7. The end of illegal gun registry...finally

"The new law also requires the ATF to purge its records of background checks within 24 hours, rather than keeping them for 90 days."

Here's another shocker...most criminals obtain their guns illegally!!

[MrSandman]

As long as they do their job in a timely manner...

three days.

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