National group honors 2 Las Vegas officers in fatal CCW Holder Shooting Costco

[RamboLiberal]

The National Association of Police Organizations has honored two Metro Police officers who were involved in the fatal shooting of Erik Scott last summer.

Officer William Mosher and Officer Joshua Stark are Nevada’s 2011 honorable mentions for NAPO’s "Top Cops" awards. Mosher and Stark were two of three officers who fatally shot Scott in July at the Summerlin Costco.

The third officer, Officer Thomas Mendiola, was charged in January with a felony count of furnishing a firearm to a prohibited person and relieved of duty without pay pending the outcome of the case.

NAPO’s website says the "Top Cops" awards program began in 1994 and pays tribute to “outstanding law officers across the country for actions above and beyond the call of duty.” The website says officers throughout the country are nominated by fellow officers. An awards ceremony will be held May 12 in Washington, D.C.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/apr/15/national-group-honors-2-metro-officers-fatal-erik-/

Very iffy shooting here. After the testimony I kind of came down on side of officers but just barely. And I know many here found it totally unjustified. No way in hell IMHO should they be honored for this action.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThatPoetGuy]

2. Hey RamboLiberal...

Wow, all the replies got deleted. That's because they weren't pro-gun.

Do you see a problem with a message board that prohibits discussion of one side of an issue? That's the Guns forum for you.

[gejohnston]

3. I read them before they were deleted

they were not "anti gun". Mostly questioning the cops getting the award because of some facts of the shooting.

[Hoyt]

4. A lot of pro-gunners question actions against Timmy McVeigh, Randy Weaver, David Koresh, etc.

[spin]

5. The federal government took a lot of heat for their actions in the Ruby Ridge incident ...

Aftermath of the Ruby Ridge incident

Weaver was charged with multiple crimes relating to the Ruby Ridge incident, a total of ten counts including the original firearms charges and murder. Attorney Gerry Spence handled Weaver's defense, and argued successfully that Weaver's actions were justifiable as self-defense. The judge dismissed two counts after hearing prosecution witness testimony. The jury acquitted Weaver of all remaining charges except two, one of which the judge set aside. Weaver was found guilty of one count, failure to appear, for which Weaver was fined $10,000 and sentenced to 18 months in prison. The reason he failed to appear was because he was officially told the court case was on the 20th March when in fact it was on the 20th February. He was credited with time served plus an additional three months, and was then released. Kevin Harris was acquitted of all criminal charges.<16>

In August 1995, the federal government avoided trial on a civil lawsuit filed by the Weavers, by awarding the three surviving daughters $1,000,000 each and Randy Weaver $100,000 over the deaths of Sammy and Vicki Weaver. The attorney for Kevin Harris pressed Harris' civil suit for damages, although federal officials vowed they would never pay someone who had killed a U.S. Marshal (Harris had been acquitted by a jury trial on grounds of self-defense). In September 2000 after persistent appeals, Harris was awarded a $380,000 settlement from the government.<17>

Controversy over the Ruby Ridge Rules of Engagement led to a standardization of deadly force policy among federal law enforcement agencies, implemented in October 1995 after the Ruby Ridge hearings by the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information, Senate Committee on the Judiciary.<18><19>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Weaver

[Hoyt]

7. Figured you'd be here spinning your junk about these gun criminals that had weeks to surrender.

Instead they stayed holed up in their unholy compound until things go out of hand.

[spin]

9. Are you denying the fact that the federal government ...

recognized that procedures were not followed at Ruby Ridge.

Even the FBI director Louis J. Freeh admitted that mistakes were made.

The F.B.I. and Ruby Ridge
Published: August 16, 1995

F.B.I. Director Louis Freeh has moved quickly to correct the egregious error he made earlier this year when, trusting his longtime friend Larry Potts, he declared that there had been no cover-up of the Bureau's activities in the 1992 standoff between agents and a white separatist family in Idaho.

The Government is already paying for that error in money and trust. Yesterday it awarded $3.1 million to Randall Weaver, whose wife and son were killed at Ruby Ridge by Federal agents. But the worst damage was to the Government's reputation. The incident has fueled concerns that the nation's highest law enforcement agency has grievously abused its powers.
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/16/opinion/the-fbi-and-ruby-ridge.html

Former FBI official sentenced in Ruby Ridge probe
October 10, 1997

E. Michael Kahoe, a former head of the FBIs violent crime and major offenders section, told the court he was sorry for his actions.

I must live every day with the realism of what Ive done, he said tearfully. I will always be known as the agent who plead guilty to obstruction of justice in the Ruby Ridge case.

Kahoe was sentenced by Judge Ricardo Urbina, who could have given him two years. The judge also ordered him placed on probation for two years after his release from federal prison.

***snip***

As head of the FBIs major crimes section, Kahoe was responsible for preparing a critique of the FBIs performance at Ruby Ridge. Federal prosecutors said he repeatedly refused to hand over documents and later destroyed the report, which they were able to recreate from computer files.
http://articles.cnn.com/1997-10-10/us/9710_10_briefs_kahoe.sentencing_1_ruby-ridge-randy-weaver-fbi-official?_s=PM:US

The FBI's Revised Rules of Engagement Assumed in Force at Ruby Ridge

The FBI's Standard Rules of Engagement:
Agents are not to use deadly force against any person except as necessary in self-defense or the defense of another when they have reason to believe they or another are in danger of death or grievous bodily hard. Whenever feasible, verbal warning should be given before deadly force is applied.

The FBI's Revised Rules of Engagement, Assumed in Force at Ruby Ridge:
1. If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement, deadly force can and should be employed, if the shot can be taken without endangering any children.
2. If any adult in the compound is observed with a weapon after the surrender announcement is made, and is not attempting to surrender, deadly force can and should be employed to neutralize the individual.
3. If compromised by any animal, particularly the dogs, that animal should be eliminated.
4. Any subjects other than Randall Weaver, Vicki Weaver, Kevin Harris, presenting threats of death or grievous bodily harm, the FBI rules of deadly force are in effect. Deadly force can be utilized to prevent the death or grievous bodily injury to oneself or that of another.

***snip***

6. A Department of Justice Task Force in 1994 reached the following conclusion about the Revised Rules of Engagement at Ruby Ridge:
"Our review found numerous problems with the conduct of the FBI at Ruby Ridge. Although we concluded that the decision to deploy the HRT to Ruby Ridge was appropriate and consistent with Department policy, we do not believe that the FBI's initial attempts at intelligence gathering at the scene were sufficiently thorough. We also found serious problems with the terms of the Rules of Engagement in force at Ruby Ridge. Certain portions of these Rules not only departed from the FBI's standard deadly force policy but also contravened the Constitution of the United States. In addition, we found these Rules to be imprecise and believe that they may have created an atmosphere that encouraged the use of deadly force thereby having the effect of contributing to an unintentional death."emphasis added
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/weaver/fbirules.html

U.S. Will Bring No More Criminal Charges Against F.B.I. Officials in Ruby Ridge Siege
By TIM WEINER
Published: August 16, 1997

The Justice Department said today that it would not bring more criminal charges against senior F.B.I. officials in the 1992 siege at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, where a Government sniper killed the wife of a white separatist as she clutched their baby daughter inside a mountain cabin.

The Ruby Ridge case led to a criminal cover-up inside the Federal Bureau of Investigation. It provoked a national debate over the bureau's decision to bend its own rules and tell its sharpshooters to fire on any armed man. It ruined the reputation of the bureau's Deputy Director, Larry Potts, and damaged other fast-track F.B.I. careers.

In testimony in 1995, the bureau's Director, Louis J. Freeh, said ''Ruby Ridge was a series of terribly flawed law-enforcement operations'' in which ''the F.B.I. did not perform at the level which the American people expect or deserve.''

Michael R. Stiles, the Federal prosecutor who led the criminal investigation into Ruby Ridge, said today, ''I don't disagree with that statement in the least.''emphasis added
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/16/us/us-will-bring-no-more-criminal-charges-against-fbi-officials-in-ruby-ridge-siege.html

Notice that I am not posting in support of Randy Weaver, but merely pointing out that the FBI did admit fault in handling the incident. The situation would not have resulted in the death of Vicki Weaver, Randy's wife, had Randy Weaver surrendered peacefully. I also disagree strongly with Randy Weaver's racist views.

I am not "spinning junk" just reviewing history. Our history is filled with many incidents that many would overlook or ignore.


Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it
George Santayana http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana

[Hoyt]

13. I'm always amazed at the support pro-gunners give these criminals.

Whatever the FBI agents did after the fact is a different issue. Weaver could have surrendered and faced whatever was coming to him. Instead, he hid in his para-military compound, probably continuing to plot against the government and the minorities he hated.

[spin]

17. Reading skill is fundamental ...

if that comment is directed at me.

Did you read all of my post? I said:

"Notice that I am not posting in support of Randy Weaver, but merely pointing out that the FBI did admit fault in handling the incident. The situation would not have resulted in the death of Vicki Weaver, Randy's wife, had Randy Weaver surrendered peacefully. I also disagree strongly with Randy Weaver's racist views."

Our government always has a responsibility to abide by the Constitution. Our citizens are not slaves. If you read my post I posted this:

6. A Department of Justice Task Force in 1994 reached the following conclusion about the Revised Rules of Engagement at Ruby Ridge:
"Our review found numerous problems with the conduct of the FBI at Ruby Ridge. Although we concluded that the decision to deploy the HRT to Ruby Ridge was appropriate and consistent with Department policy, we do not believe that the FBI's initial attempts at intelligence gathering at the scene were sufficiently thorough. We also found serious problems with the terms of the Rules of Engagement in force at Ruby Ridge. Certain portions of these Rules not only departed from the FBI's standard deadly force policy but also contravened the Constitution of the United States. In addition, we found these Rules to be imprecise and believe that they may have created an atmosphere that encouraged the use of deadly force thereby having the effect of contributing to an unintentional death."emphasis added

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/weaver/fbirules.html

Notice that it was not only "pro-gunners" who were critical of the FBI but a Task Force assembled by the Justice Department.

[one-eyed fat man]

18. You think entrapment is a proper law-enforcement strategy?

Believing that he attended the Aryan Nations church and Aryan Nations World Congresses, the U.S. Secret Service and the FBI interviewed Weaver and his wife in 1985. Weaver denied belonging to the Aryan Nations, and the couple cited differences in religious beliefs between themselves and the group. Randy Weaver was approached by the ATF to inform on the Aryan Brotherhood and declined. Undercover ATF agents finagled him into violating the NFA by sawing off a shotgun. Weaver refused to shorten the barrel to less than 18 inches which is a rather well known restriction.

Under the National Firearms Act (NFA) it is illegal for a private citizen to possess a sawed-off modern smokeless powder shotgun, i.e. with a barrel length less than 18 inches (46 cm) and an overall length less than 26 inches (66 cm), without a tax-stamped permit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which requires a background check and a $200 fee for every transfer.

The ATF informant did talk him into removing enough wood from the stock the gun was 3/8 inch too short. The lack of a tax stamp was the leverage the government was using to force Weaver into becoming an informant and he was ordered to appear in court on the charges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Weaver#Ruby_Ridge_incident

Weaver's original court date was Feb. 19 1991; it was changed to the following day, but Pretrial Services sent Weaver a notice citing the date as March 20. As a result, Weaver missed the hearing and a bench warrant was issued for his arrest, with the U.S. Marshals Service directed to serve it. By Feb. 27, it was widely known that Weaver had been given the wrong date. The U.S. Marshals Service wanted to allow Weaver the opportunity to show up in court on March 20, but the U.S. Attorneys Office sought a grand jury indictment on March 14 for Weaver's failure to appear.

After long-term surveillance, the Deputy Director of the Special Operations Group of the Marshals Service recommended against a tactical assault on the Weaver residence. He recommended that the indictment be dismissed and then refiled later under seal, so that Weaver would be unaware of the new indictment, in hope of causing him to drop his guard. An undercover operation could then be executed to arrest Weaver without incident. His recommendation was rejected.

However reprehensible Weaver's personal beliefs may have been, there is no evidence he want anything more than to be left alone on his mountain top. There is plenty of evidence of collusion and an apparent desire exact retribution against Weaver for not wanting to be an informant.

Much controversy was later generated by the fact that, after the first day's events, the FBI had changed its usual rules of engagement; specifically, "deadly force can and should be used against any armed adult male if the shot could be taken without a child being injured." No request for surrender or announcement of officials' presence would be needed to shoot.

The next day, August 22, 1992, HRT sniper/observer teams were deployed on the north ridge overlooking the cabin. Randy Weaver, Harris, and Weaver's 16-year-old daughter Sara were seen outside the cabin. Weaver went to view the body of Sammy Weaver,<8> which had been placed in a shed after being recovered the previous day. Weaver's back was to FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi. Horiuchi aimed to sever Weaver's spine for an instant kill. Weaver moved in the last split second as Horiuchi fired and the bullet entered Weaver's right shoulder and exited the armpit. As the three ran back to the house, Horiuchi fired again at Kevin Harris as he ran away, but this time hit Weaver's wife Vicki in the head as she held their 10-month-old daughter Elishiba at the door. Vicki Weaver collapsed on the floor, dying instantly with her bloody but uninjured daughter in her arms. Harris was hit in the chest by the same bullet. A Justice Department review later found this second shot was unconstitutional and the lack of a request to surrender was "inexcusable", since Harris and the two Weavers were running for cover and could not pose an imminent threat. The task force also specifically blamed Horiuchi for firing at the door, not knowing whether someone was on the other side of it, and criticized those who had decided on the special rules of engagement allowing shots to be fired with no previous request for surrender.Much later, a robot vehicle approached the cabin and announced the presence of law enforcement. According to the Weavers, this was the first announcement of the source of the violence.

A stand-off ensued for 10 days as several hundred federal agents surrounded the house, in which Weaver and his three surviving children remained with Harris and the body of Vicki Weaver, under a blood-soaked blanket. During the stand-off, the government force, which numbered 350 to 400 men, had named their temporary camp "Camp Vicki". The negotiators who later claimed they did not know Vicki was dead would call out in the morning 'Vicki, we have blueberry pancakes.' To Sara Weaver inside with her dead mother's body, they were deliberately taunting the survivors.

The government was heavy-handed in their response at best and reprehensible at worst. That you laud their actions is despicable.

[PavePusher]

20. A ply-wood shack is now a "para-military compound"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/weaver/weaveraccount.html



Dude, you are either terribly ignorant, or disturbingly unbalanced, perhaps both. Seek help, please.

[Union Scribe]

21. Ok, so, you're cool with guns being used by the government

to kill people, but not with ordinary citizens to even carry. Gotcha.

[PavePusher]

6. McVeigh, not so much.

The rest... yeah, the government should always shoot and burn people who were not convicted of any crimes, and who had not been properly presented with correct court papers.

:sarcasm: ...if I must.

[Hoyt]

8. Koresh had 51 days to come out peacefully after he killed agents. Weaver had time too.

They both decided to play tough and the feds took action. They could have surrender weeks before things happened. But, those obsessed with guns are seldom rational.

[PavePusher]

10. Why "surrender" when you haven't done anything wrong?

Should I surrender to the police on their random whim?

[Hoyt]

12. If you've shot 4 agents in Koresh's case, or converted guns in Weavers - you've done something wrong

Not to mention the young girls Koresh's folks raped, etc. As to Weaver, he was a dang militia, racist, gun criminal. You have a very warped sense of morality if you don't think those are serious crimes. The government was overly patient with them. Why is it that so many of the gun obsessed accept these type people?

[Glassunion]

14. "As to Weaver, he was a dang militia, racist, gun criminal"

So... He was a "gun criminal" and he was charged and convicted of what gun crimes? Not one... Nothing, nada, zip, zero, zilch...

Weaver was charged with multiple crimes relating to the Ruby Ridge incident, a total of ten counts including the original firearms charges and murder. Attorney Gerry Spence handled Weaver's defense, and argued successfully that Weaver's actions were justifiable as self-defense. The judge dismissed two counts after hearing prosecution witness testimony. The jury acquitted Weaver of all remaining charges except two, one of which the judge set aside. Weaver was found guilty of one count, failure to appear, for which Weaver was fined $10,000 and sentenced to 18 months in prison. The reason he failed to appear was because he was officially told the court case was on the 20th March when in fact it was on the 20th February. He was credited with time served plus an additional three months, and was then released. Kevin Harris was acquitted of all criminal charges. Kevin Harris was also charged with the murder of Bill Degan in spite of the fact he had been acquitted on that charge in federal court; that charge was dismissed also.

In August 1995, the federal government avoided trial on a civil lawsuit filed by the Weavers, by awarding the three surviving daughters $1,000,000 each and Randy Weaver $100,000 over the deaths of Sammy and Vicki Weaver. The attorney for Kevin Harris pressed Harris' civil suit for damages, although federal officials vowed they would never pay someone who had killed a U.S. Marshal (Harris had been acquitted by a jury trial on grounds of self-defense). In September 2000 after persistent appeals, Harris was awarded a $380,000 settlement from the government.

[Hoyt]

15. Yes sir, he was a saint. Could probably walk into gun show and buy weapons capable of killing 100s.

Sainted by the Aryan Nation I guess. Next you'll tell us he attended their rallies by mistake. The guy was a criminal and worse.

[Glassunion]

16. Don't get me wrong...

I don't like the guy. I don't like what he stands for. But nothing he did was a crime. With the exception of failing to appear at his March 20th court date on February 20th.

It is perfectly legal to be a racist.
It is perfectly legal to attend a Klan rally or whatever.

In order for speech to be protected, all speech, no matter how unpopular needs to be protected.

[Union Scribe]

22. You don't deal with facts well.

Seems to be a constant with your sort.

[David West]

25. What crimes did Randy Weaver commit?

"Dang militia"
Not illegal in the slightest, and he wasn't even in a militia. It was just him, his wife, 4 kids, and a 20-something family friend living in a cabin in the middle of no where. If that's a militia, that's one sorry militia.

"racist"
Idiotic, but in no way illegal or deserving of any sort of violence.

"gun criminal"
Getting tricked by a government agency looking to extort you into cutting an inanimate object 3/8 of an inch shorter than an arbitrary limit written on a piece of paper is a "serious crime?" What the hell does that make smoking weed? A mortal sin?

Not only does violating the NFA in any logical way constitute a legitimate crime, Weaver was ACQUITTED of this crime because it was nothing more than good old fashioned entrapment.

And it's not that those of us who are "gun obsessed" "accept these kinds of people," it's that we're mature and rational enough to stick up for the innocent even when we have personal differences with them.

[one-eyed fat man]

19. Let's do this again slowly.

If the Federal government does you like they did Weaver they will give you a legal document that tells you you are to appear in court in March. The US Attorney will then schedule the court case for February and when you don't show up ask the judge for a bench warrant for your arrest for failing to appear in court. Again, is this your idea of proper law enforcement?

You can't say he failed to show in court, he was told the wrong day. Even the Marshall's service knew that but the US Attorney seems to have had as big a hard-on for him as you do.

[David West]

24. And rightly so.

Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris were exonerated in court of the shooting of a federal marshal as it was ruled legitimate self defense, and all other charges were also dropped (including the original ATF entrapment incident that set the ball in motion) save for Randy Weaver's "failure to appear in court" charged. As he had already been in custody for something like a year and a half at this point, he was credited with time served and released. Wouldn't that seem to imply that they were, I don't know... in the right, and the government was in the wrong?

And because the feds wanted to stage an invasion instead of balling up David Koresh while he was alone on one of his regular jogs, 80 some people were killed. Yeah, that doesn't deserve ANY criticism whatsoever...

[Euromutt]

11. One way or the other, that's a pretty awful reason for a nomination

Leaving aside the question of whether the shooting of Erik Scott was justified, the bottom line is that the two cops in question were essentially being nominated for shooting a private citizen who was, at worst, behaving erratically but didn't seem to actually be in the process of committing a crime at the time of the confrontation. It's not like these cops were nominated for the title of "Top Cop" for foiling a major armed robbery, recovering the victim of an Amber Alert, taking down a repeat cop killer, or pulling a basket of puppies from a burning minivan.

In fact, I find it a rather unnerving idea that there are law enforcement personnel out there whose idea of performance worthy of the title of "Top Cop" consists of fatally shooting private citizens who very probably shouldn't have been shot. That's not the kind of thing that cements good relations between the law enforcement community and the citizens they're meant to protect and serve.

[one-eyed fat man]

23. You have to look at from Hoyt's perspective

He is nothing, if not consistent. He revels in unmitigated glee when anyone he deems a "toter" gets shot afoul the law, regardless the circumstances. He decries any violence visited upon home invaders, bank robbers, assassins or burglars.

Despite conflicting testimony at the coroner's inquest, the most charitable version of events is that the Costco manager exaggerated claims of Scott waving a gun around in the store set up the police to over-react. Dispatch sent three squad cars and a helicopter. With the magical mysterious malfunction of all of the relevant Costco security cameras, the shooting could at best have been ruled excusable.

Scott was shot seven times, including once in the chest, once in the shoulder, and five times in the back while he was on the ground and Hoyt has been: