Could You Draw on a 12-Year-Old Committing a Robbery?

[LAGC]

A 12-year-old Michigan girl will be charged with armed robbery after she tried to hold up a convenience store, MyFoxDetroit.com reported Monday.

Sheriff’s deputies say the girl walked into the Country Lake Food Center in Highland, Mich., with a nine millimeter gun demanding cash. Employees recognized the girl, who they said is a regular.
..
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According to investigators, the 12-year-old got the gun from her neighbor. She had a key to the house and knew where the gun was kept. The Oakland County Sheriff's Department says there may be charges for stealing a weapon.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/19/12-year-old-girl-holds-michigan-grocery-store/

I don't think I could. I'd try to defuse the situation any other way possible, knowing I'd never have the stomach to shoot.

Damn kids, getting more brazen every day.

[ZombieHorde]

1. Committing a robbery? No. Talking during a movie? Yes. nt

[WatsonT]

55. Ha!

Justifiable homicide.

[Sonoman]

2. One finger, one trigger.

Age doesn't matter when your fate is on the line.

Sonoman

[flvegan]

3. Could I? Do I need to?

Likely this is a disarm situation. Drama of "draw(ing) on a 12-year-old" aside.

Seems the OP forgets the first rule. At least, MY first rule.

[Starboard Tack]

67. Exactly, so a you wouldn't even need a gun, right?

[YllwFvr]

4. Wow what a rough scenario

Depends I guess on whether I had the drop on them. I couldnt say. Incredible story

[TheWraith]

5. I hope they charge this girl's parents with something.

Because seriously, that is just fucked up, and I can't imagine any scenario in which the parents aren't responsible in at least half a dozen ways.

[Starboard Tack]

68. How about charging the neighbor who left a gun lying around?

Could've been stolen by someone more likely to use it lethally.
Accountability is the key here.

[one-eyed fat man]

6. How do you read the situation?

Billy the Kid killed his first at 1l.

About twenty years ago there were a 11 and 13 year old in Cleveland who arrested for a contract killing. The junior hit men openly admitted they did it knowing if they got caught they were too young to be tried as adults. They had coldly calculated that they could kill until fourteen as the most time they would do is "juvenile detention" until 18, then be released with their criminal record sealed.

Who can forget the wonderful 13 year old piece of shit from Florida who told Sally Jesse on TV why they picked the tourists to rob and murder? Tourists have stuff worth stealing, they are easy to identify with rental car plates, and, best of all, coming from the airport they don't have guns.

The tough call is not her age, it is will she pull the trigger? If you think that impulse control is not fully developed in a 12 year old, maybe the odds are yes. No matter what you choose, there will be plenty of folks who will second guess your choice.

[RSillsbee]

7. I'd just take the gun away and beat her ass NT

[jeepnstein]

10. Good luck with that.

[RSillsbee]

85. Did you read the story?

That's pretty much exactly what the proprietors did

[GreenStormCloud]

86. They were very lucky.

Attempting to disarm anybody who has a gun with their finger on the trigger is a very high risk endeavour. All that 12 year old had to do was twitch her finger to prevent being disarmed.

[RSillsbee]

87. Apparently you are not keeping current on the latest Brady wisdom

Otherwise you'd know that any time anyone pulls a gun the person they pull it on takes it away and uses it on them. :sarcasm: ( Like I needed that)

Seriously, I did some weapon disarms in martial arts training and I was able to disarm the "attacker" when they knew what I was about to do.

The biggest mistake people make w/ guns is they assume they're magic and the mere presence of one will cow anyone in the vicinity into utter submission.
When the intended victim doesn't cower in fear and resists it takes time for the brain to process it. Action almost always beats reaction.

Depending on the circumstance I'd give it a shot

[GreenStormCloud]

88. Action does beat reaction - absolutely

However, there is an FBI retention hold that is used for a gun in close quarters. Using that hold it is extremely difficult to take the gun away.

There is a somewhat famous example of action beating reaction. In the days of the Old West a street robber attempted to make an armed robbery on John Wesly Hardin. Bad mistake!! Hardin practiced his fast draw daily. Robber was shot and killed where he stood.

[RSillsbee]

89. How mant 12 YOs do you know

that practice FBI retention holds?

There is a somewhat famous example of action beating reaction. In the days of the Old West a street robber attempted to make an armed robbery on John Wesly Hardin. Bad mistake!! Hardin practiced his fast draw daily. Robber was shot and killed where he stood.

Got anymore details ? I am somewhat of a JWH fan and I am unaware of this episode.

I am aware of an instance in which a relative of JWH was involved in an altercation w/ a local bully and went to JWH for advice. Hardin was trying to talk him out of it because the relative wasn't in the same class as the bully.

While they were discussing it the bully showed up and called out that the relative (possibly one of the Dixon's) had better say his prayers. The bully had no sooner finished speaking when a pistol shot rang out and he fell to the floor.

Hardin turned around, holstered his pistol and told the relative "You see? that is exactly what he would have doen to you." and walked away

[GreenStormCloud]

90. Thread drift.

Sometimes a discussion drifts. I am afraid that I was no longer talking about the 12 yr old but had switched to talking about disarming an armed person in general. Sorry that I didn't say that. It is true that few people, especially a 12 yr old, will have had specialized training in close quarters gun retention. I got lucky by having an FBI agent as a shooting friend about 40 years ago.

Here is where I found the bit about JWH. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley_Hardin#More_killings

Upon rereading it I see that Hardin gave himself an extra edge by distracting the robber. It also contains the bit about the daily practice.

"On December 25, 1869, Hardin was playing cards with Jim Bradley in Towash, Hill County, Texas. Hardin was winning almost every hand, which angered Bradley, who threatened to "cut out his liver" if he won another. After Bradley drew a knife and a six-shooter, Hardin (who was unarmed) excused himself and left.<8> Later that night, Bradley went looking for Hardin. Upon seeing him on Towash Street, he fired a shot which missed. Hardin drew both his pistols and returned fire —one shot striking Bradley's head and the other his chest. Dozens of people saw this fight and from them there is a good record of how Hardin had used his guns. His holsters were sewn into his vest, with the butts pointed inward across his chest. He crossed his arms to draw. Hardin claimed this was the fastest way to draw, and he practiced every day.

Less than a week after this incident, in nearby Kosse, Hardin was escorting a saloon girl home when he was accosted by a man demanding money. He threw his money on the ground and shot the would-be thief when he bent to pick it up."

[RSillsbee]

95. I knew about the Bradley incident

I heard the other incident was an attempt by both the hooker and the other guy to rob him.

[slackmaster]

8. How can you shoot women and children?

It's easy. You just don't lead 'em as much.

[jeepnstein]

9. Armed?

You betcha. Yup. Kids can kill. Just look up the concept of "child soldiers" and see for yourself. What kind of twisted world do we live in where kids think it's OK to rob people at gun point? Somebody's to blame and I don't think it's the NRA.

Of course we'll have a parade of people trotting through here in a minute or two blaming everyone but the girl and her parents. Yup.

[GreenStormCloud]

11. She has just promoted herself to adulthood.

Sometimes kids do things that place themselves in an adult situation with adult consequences. It isn't fair, but then life isn't fair. I likely would not shoot since most robberies are completed with no shots fired. But if she acts like she is about to shoot, then the lives of other innocents must take a higher value than hers.

[RamboLiberal]

14. +1 - I'd be very unlikely to get involved in stopping a store armed robbery

Unless I felt my life or life of another was in danger.

But a gun is deadly in any age hands and a kid criminal with a gun can kill you as dead as an adult criminal and may be even more likely to do so.

[Hoyt]

12. Some pro-gunners would. A few weeks ago they supported shooting unarmed woman robber.

Many of these folks have been preparing for decades for the excuse to shoot someone. Don't think age is going to matter to them in the unlikely event they have an excuse to use their newly acquired, hi-cap mag equipped, weapon.

I also suppose the neighbor in the OP was another law-abiding gun owner who left the gun lying around for anyone to take. Yet, pro-gunners deny these things happen.

[one-eyed fat man]

18. Do you live alone?

Do you lock up every concievable implement of destruction in your house on the chance that someone is going to break in and steal it? That arsenic powder you dust your begonias to kill the aphids could make a nifty batch of Jonestown grape. Would you be responsible if she had decided to poison the coffee in the teacher's lounge instead of knocking over a 7-11?

By the standard you want to impose, if someone steals your car and uses it in a hit and run you just ought to lay down on the gurney and let'em hang the needle in your arm.

[Hoyt]

20. Do you have guns around that 12 year olds can see, get to (probably handle), and in this case steal?

[one-eyed fat man]

24. There are guns under lock and key

Unless they have the mechanical aptitude of a turnip that may or may not be a deterrent. Locks keep honest people honest. There was a well-known collector not very far from here who was at work when someone broke into his barn and used the tractor and high lift to break through the side of his house and load his safe onto a truck. There was nothing subtle about that burglary.

Even you might be bright enough to bring an oxyacetylene torch if you knew had a safe to defeat. On the other hand, if I live alone, what does it matter if a keep a cannon in the living room or a revolver in my sock drawer? A 12 year old burglar has no more fucking business in my house uninvited than you do.

Do you leave your car keys when any 12 year old burglar can find them? You keep a supply of medication in your bathroom?

I understand your blanket condemnation: if her neighbor didn't have a house to burglarize and no gun to steal, this angelic child wouldn't have been emboldened to commit armed robbery.

[Starboard Tack]

70. You get the prize for the stretch of the day

and that's impressive with all the stretching around here. But you should probably lock up your arsenic when the old lsdies come by for afternoon tea.

[one-eyed fat man]

75. Bullshit.

By what standard are you responsible for the crimes committed by someone who burglarizes your home? Explain why a thief breaking in and stealing your stuff, from inside your house, somehow turns you into an accomplice instead of a victim.

[Starboard Tack]

76. I see you have a typical toter's sense of humor

How about the neighbor's responsibility when he gave the 12 year old "burglar" the key to his house where she took the gun? No responsibility there either?

But I did love your story about the collector's safe. Priceless.

[one-eyed fat man]

78. I have a very low tolerance for thieves.

If the guy gave her a key to house that is a different kettle of fish.

As a kid, 60 years ago, gun racks or gun cabinets were in the farmhouse of every one I knew. But our parents imbued us with the quaint notion that helping yourself to stuff that wasn't yours was WRONG.

The collector's house was well off the highway and out in the county. Using his own equipment to load the truck was preplanned as well. Guns were not all they got and nothing much of value was over looked. He was not the only one victimized. Turned out it was an installer for the alarm company who bird-dogged for the ring of thieves. They had the means to disable the alarm and spoof the monitoring company.

[oneshooter]

19. Provide verifiable evidence, including link. n/t

[Hoyt]

21. Link provided in message. Now, your turn.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=397903&mesg_id=398498

That's just one post -- check out rest of thread.

[oneshooter]

22. Yes, the bank robber that claimed to have a gun.

You lose. If they claim to have a gun then they need to be treated as such.

[Hoyt]

25. Does that mean to draw and put one in their brain as soon as she says that?

I don't think so. A gun is not likely to improve the outcome of a bank robbery. Well, except among those who daydream about one of these situations actually arising.

[GreenStormCloud]

50. She is threatening the lives of people. She has to be taken seriously.

Only in your fantasy world are we clairvoyant and able to know that she is really unarmed. In the real world we have to believe her, and act accordingly. That may mean taking her out, or it may mean doing nothing. That depends upon other factors.

[Hoyt]

54. Good thing you, or those who think similarly, weren't there. You guys think "gun" too quickly.

Fortunately -- as in so many of these cases -- a friggin gun was not needed. Two people intervened without a shot -- one calling police, one holding the girl down.

You guys think "gun" too quickly.

[friendly_iconoclast]

58. You are the person that claimed armed home invaders weren't *really* dangerous

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x401286

...but legal gun owners are somehow problematic. How does that work, again?

[Hoyt]

60. I did not say that. In any event, this thread does not involve a home invader.

It involved a 12 year old girl that was easily handled without a gun. Something gun-guys have a hard time accepting.

[GreenStormCloud]

62. If you can switch from talking about the 12 year old to talking about...

...the robber who was faking having a gun, then he can switch to talking about home invaders. In that thread you were against shooting a home invader who had already started shooting.

[Hoyt]

63. I think you've taken something out of context. Got a post #? You guys often don't get things right.

Might be lead poisoning or something.

[friendly_iconoclast]

80. Unlike you, I provide links:

Behold the subthread where .22s were deemed not much of a threat by you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=401286#401534

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=401286#401633

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=401286#401815


Again, why are guns in the hands of the law abiding a problem, but guns in the hands of criminals are not?

[Hoyt]

81. I didn't say to give me links that prove you are wrong. But you did anyway.

How does this stubstantiate your assertion:

"Truthfully, when someone enters your house -- just about anything the homeowner does is fair in my opinion. Although, I have very little or nothing in my house -- other than inhabitants -- worth killing someone for. Now, shooting some kid for stealing a pink flamingo off the front lawn or lawnmower out of the shed doesn't justify blasting away in my opinion."

Pretty clear to me that I'm saying when someone inters your home, they are fucked as far as I am concerned. The other qualifiers apply, unless you are just looking for an excuse to shoot someone. If they are in your house . . . . . .well, they are at your mercy as far as I'm concerned.

[GreenStormCloud]

82. Here is the link. You are clearly against shooting the home invaders..

...that have already fired shot(s) in the house.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=401286&mesg_id=401860

So in your world home invaders can come in the house shooting and we aren't supposed to shoot them.

[Starboard Tack]

71. So why don't you just claim to have one instead of having one?

Is that because you're one of the "good guys"?

[oneshooter]

84. No. because that could get you killed, very dead. n/t

[petronius]

39. Do you honestly believe that there are posters here who want to shoot/kill another

person, or do you just spew that nonsense to get a rise out of people? :shrug:

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[petronius]

43. So just to be clear: you truly honestly think that there are people right here at DU who will be

sad if they never get to shoot someone, and that they would consider a pre-teen girl a particularly desirable target?

[Callisto32]

74. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Yadda yadda yadda.

Your post is just an ad hominem without a named target, kinda like the nuclear option of logical fallacies.

[rl6214]

13. There are 12 year olds that look like they are 15 nowadays

and can be 150lbs, they are not all your friendly little kids any more.

[Hoyt]

26. Is that a rationale to shoot them, perhaps in the back?

[GreenStormCloud]

32. If the 12 yr old is holding a gun threatening to kill someone if they don't get their way - Yes.

The life of the innocent person must take a higer value than that of a violent criminal, even if the criminal is only 12. Whether or not I would actually take the shot would depend upon a number of other factors. Whether the shot is in the side, front, or back makes no difference.

[Hoyt]

33. Thank you Jesus, judge, jury, and executioner.

Another good reason to ban guns in public.

[PavePusher]

46. More proof that you want unarmed victims. Good grief. n/t

[Hoyt]

48. If one walks around in public with gun, suspecting/fearing 12 year olds -- good reason for controls.

[GreenStormCloud]

49. As usual you distort the situation.

If one walks around in public with gun, suspecting/fearing 12 year olds -- good reason for controls.
No one here walks around suspecting 12 yr olds. However if a 12 year old produces a gun and points it at someone then that is an entirely different situation.
At that point their age become irrelavent, as long as they have their finger on a trigger, at any age, they should be feared.

[Hoyt]

53. Society expects public gun carriers to have reasonable/rational judgement. Ain't seeing it here.

Don't think you guys are displaying it in comments related to the situation described in the OP.

[ManiacJoe]

57. Oh, you see it. You just don't agree with it being reasonable.

[GreenStormCloud]

61. Society gets that resonableness too from us.

The statistics that show that we are far more trustworthy than the general public and only rarely misuse our guns have been posted here before. You have seen them and ignore them.

[Hoyt]

65. Yes, I've seen those stats ad nauseam. Your sample is biased because of requirements to get a CCW.

I suspect that if we took another group -- say people who could pass a CCW background check but don't see the need/rationale to carry a gun in public -- they would be even less likely to commit a crime. I will certainly read anything you have to disprove that.

[GreenStormCloud]

83. That would be pure speculation.

That are no available stats on the group you describe. The only way to know if someone can pass the FBI background check on someone is to do the check. People who aren't interested in getting a CCW are generally not going to pay for an FBI background check. So there is no defined group to collect stats on. But CCW holders are a defined group and Texas publishes detailed stats and those stats show us to be model citizens with only RARE exceptions.

[petronius]

64. You obviously see what you want to see. And what you want to see has no relation to reality

I honestly can't tell if you're massively deluded about the state of society, or if you're just here to troll the forum with inanity. I'm also not sure which of those options would be sadder...

[Hoyt]

66. "Massively deluded about state of society"- I'm not the one irrationally compelled to tote in public

[petronius]

69. The fact that you insist on phrases like "irrationally compelled" is evidence of your delusion,

or willful ignorance, or complete lack of seriousness.

As I said: troll, or extremely confused...

[PavePusher]

91. You have consistently failed to prove that it is "irrational". n/t

[rl6214]

36. For you maybe, not for me.

If the 12yo is growing a beard you may not know that they are 12.

[Hoyt]

38. You guys have all kinds of justification to put a notch in your gun.

[petronius]

47. Actually, there's only one justification, and nobody wants to "put a notch" in anything

[one-eyed fat man]

44. Since when has that bothered you?

The cops in Las Vegas shot Erik Scott 5 times in the back while he was laying on the ground and you thought that was just fucking peachy!

[Starboard Tack]

72. Hmm! Looks 15 and weighs 150. Sounds shootable to me

[chibajoe]

15. Could I? Yes. Would I? Probably not. I'm reasonably sure I can disarm a 12 year old girl

without getting shot if I'm within arm's reach.

[ManiacJoe]

16. The obvious followup question: What if you are not within arms reach?

[Hoyt]

27. Offer em a candy cane and free tickets to Miley Cyrus of something. Maybe see why she's doing this.

I don't think you draw, I don't think you do anything with a gun until maybe she points it at you. In fact, one would be better off without a gun in these situations. And, no I don't have a link, and neither do you.

[Hoyt]

28. Good reason to let folks carry stun guns, rather than guns designed and carried to kill.

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. Pat Robertson claims divine authority for *his* judgements.

From whence do you derive yours?

[Hoyt]

31. I know, not enough blood and gut splatter for you with a stun gun.

Or, other means to disarm a 12 year old kid -- who did not shoot anyone. Glad you didn't have your chance to play "hero", judge, jury and executioner with your gun.

[gejohnston]

35. you want

someone to say "yeah blow her away" to confirm your world view. Sorry, won't be able to make any GOP/Brady propaganda here.

[Hoyt]

37. I don't need to state it explicitly. Known too many carriers. Besides what other reason is there

to walk in a bank -- where there usually is an armed guard -- with a friggin gun. If a 12 yo ain't pointing it at you, I don' think there is any justification for you to blast away even though you have been preparing for this chance for so long. Sorry, man -- this situation ain't your decision, no matter how much you want it to be or think you are anointed to handle it. Let a grownup step in.

[GreenStormCloud]

45. I have never seen a bank with an armed guard in it.

That's only in old movies.

[Katya Mullethov]

51. A recurring refrain

Judgment systems and infantile projection based on the richness of experience brought only through a lifetime of watching television and hanging out with Fudds and arrogant knobs .

[friendly_iconoclast]

52. I'd love to be able to serenely pass through life issuing moral diktats to the rabble.

I know P. Robertson claims to get his ideas straight from The Big Guy Upstairs, but our resident spokesperson for the Brady curia

never does spell out just who exactly has his back...

[one-eyed fat man]

79. If you remember the Dodgers in Brooklyn

or packages delivered by Railway Express before the "Great Society," the Gun Control Act of 1968, you would remember armed bank guards.

Back before "Tricky Dick" did away with the Post Office Department and it became the Postal Service, you might have known that mail carriers were issued a revolver, carried concealed.

[ManiacJoe]

59. You seem to be suggesting that

you are OK with the guard shooting the kid to protect the lives of the others, but not OK with a customer shooting the kid to protect the lives of the others. If that is a correct interpretation of your post, please explain what difference it makes who shoots the kid since the outcome is the same in both cases.

[PavePusher]

92. Didn't you know?

Only State-appointed and annointed personnel, chosen by careful examination, have the moral judgement to shoot people on behalf of the Authorities. It's not at all about defending the unwashed commoners.

You've been missing meetings again, eh prole? Hmmmm.....

[ManiacJoe]

93. Oh, sure, Take all the fun out of it...

:evilgrin:

[chibajoe]

41. Then I will try to get within arms reach without getting shot, or just observe

the situation and hope she doesn't start shooting or turn the gun towards me. I am not a cop; I have no obligation to intervene to stop a crime, and I'm sure the store has insurance. My only obligation is to protect myself, although I might feel compelled to act on behalf of the clerk and others in the store if I feel their lives are in imminent peril. But seriously, a 12 year old girl, even a very big 12 year old girl, is going to be relatively weak compared to an adult male, and will probably not have the situational awareness to deal with more than one perceived threat (the clerk) at a time; moving to within arms reach should be possible. Now, if she appears to be an exceptionally strong, alert, situationally aware 12 year old girl, then I guess I'll have to perforate her. ;-)

[bluedigger]

17. It's situational, obviously.

But I'm pretty sure I'm not asking for ID. There's nothing "honorable" about being shot by a minor. A 14 year old shot and killed a woman during an armed robbery a block from my house while I was cooking dinner a couple years ago...

[LibertyFox]

23. I doubt it

I'm not a bloodthirsty person. I wouldn't have even recommended that the woman working there grab the child though I'm glad it worked out. If she knew the kid, give her the cash and then call the police.

The point of being armed is not to go guns blazing when provoked. It's having that tool handy when you feel that if you do not use it you or someone else will be maimed or murdered. A 12 year old girl doesn't strike me as wanting to kill anyone though you just don't know with some kids.

[AzNick]

30. Yes, she's holding a gun.

Would I kill child soldiers in Western Africa if they were holding a gun at me?

Yes.

[gejohnston]

34. I don't think it is the same thing

the soldiers are brainwashed.

[Hoyt]

40. Well, at least you recognize that. Some of public gun carriers are just as brainwashed or worse.

[gejohnston]

94. Not what I meant

with the kid in a store, the possibilities are infinite. It would seem to me that unless she is a sociopath, she would be just as afraid and have a better chance to have everyone leave vertically. The only way to know is to be unfortunate enough to be there and have to deal with it. Neither one of us can say with certain sitting on our asses in front of a monitor. A couple of folks here I know are combat vets and one seems to be a cop. I am a vet, not direct combat. Never been a cop. I am not going to pretend to know what I would do or not do.
Child soldiers on the other hand, are the rare case where sociopaths are made and not born. Choice is more clear cut. If you don't shoot, he will shoot you. His mind has already been murdered, which is far worse than killing the body.

[WatsonT]

56. The reason the person is pointing a gun at you is secondary

to the fact that they are pointing a gun at you.

They may want to kill you or they may think it shoots out magical candy!

Either way the end result will be the same.

[oneshooter]

96. Shot by a child, shot by an adult, same thing. Lots of pain.

Don't want to go through that again. Give her one chance to surrender the weapon.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Callisto32]

73. Does the tender age of a would-be shooter matter?

I think not. They are just as dangerous as adult would-be shooters. I would think the situation would be similar, except if you did have to defend yourself or another the PTSD would have the added stress of it having been a kid.

Edit: Spelling error.

[rrneck]

77. Hell yeah I could draw on a twelve year old.

Wait.. What?