More evidence of guns pouring into Mexico--from the south

[Bold Lib]

Evidence continues to mount that contrary to claims on the part of those who would use Mexican drug war violence to justify heavier gun regulation in the U.S., the civilian gun market in this country is at most a very minor player as a source of the criminals' firepower--at least when the U.S. government isn't abetting the process. When the narco-thugs go shopping for firepower, they go south. The latest confirmation of that comes from McClatchy, in "Drug gangs help themselves to Central American military arsenals":

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-st-louis/more-evidence-of-guns-pouring-into-mexico-from-the-south

It's good to have the truth come out. Unfortunately some will refuse to see it.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. Right. We're the biggest arms dealer on the planet

...but the guns are coming from elsewhere. Who are you hoping to sway with such dreck?

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpak]

3. It's a distraction - large quantities of guns are obtained at US gun shops/shows by straw buyers

and smuggled to Mexico

The GOP/NRA are running interference for the drug cartel gun runners

yup

[Bold Lib]

4. cite to evidence please.

Oh, you don't have any.

yup

[jpak]

7. The GOP House blocked the ATF from monitoring multiple gun sales in border states

why?

to coddle criminal gun runners

yup

[YllwFvr]

31. where do I get my RPGs

and machine guns?

I checked my local stores and I didnt see any left! I saw a few hand grenades but some fool had drilled a hole in them.
Of course some illegal gun sales happen. Just like some illegal guns make the trip to NYC, Detroit, and Chicago. But if you recall seeing the arsenal captured from the drug lords house it was piled with gold guns, row after row of auto ak47s, and many other pieces of hardware. You dont think they came from the US do you?

[Tejas]

33. you get them wherever jpak thinks you do

so there!

:)

[Katya Mullethov]

36. Not fair at all

Jpak is just repeating the official party line , or conventional wisdom as it were . Your beef is not with Jpak . It's with Holder, Clinton, Calderon,Melson and Co .

[Tejas]

39. Look who's talking! If you think I'm going to

to offer that pawn a hug you got another thing coming!

:)

[Katya Mullethov]

40. I guess you're right

They're probably onto something big .

[Tejas]

42. Please stop now, I am not

I'm not in the mood right this minute to wipe yet another Dr Pepper off of my keyboard, your humor has cost me a small fortune in paper towels over the past few years as it is.

[Bold Lib]

43. No, the ATF was blocked from doing something they did not have authority to do.

See, multiple handgun reporting is already done? Why? Because the legislation made a law to do it. The ATF wanted to take it unto themselves to make multiple reporting of rifles mandatory too. That is beyond their authority.

Maybe you are not familiar with the "gun walker" scandal. Oh wait, I KNOW you are - you just ignore it.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

47. Shit-full of

Him

[spin]

8. Sure. I can buy fully automatic rifles and anti-tank weapons ...

at my local gun store. If you believe that you must also believe that the Easter Bunny will bring baskets filled with colored eggs, candy and toys to the homes of children on Sunday.



There has been no evidence produced to back your accusation that the GOP/NRA has been involved in smuggling firearms to Mexico that I am aware of. Perhaps you could show me some.

[Maine_Nurse]

11. Oh please, stick to facts, not your personal fiction. nt

[jpak]

14. the truth is bitter sometimes

and the bitter truth is that US gun shops and gun shows are major sources of arms for Mexican drug cartels

the Gun Lobby wants you to believe otherwise

because the truth

is bitter

yup

[Maine_Nurse]

15. No, the US Government, through military goods sales...

are a major source, with black market military arms from other areas secondary. The few hundred non-military weapons that cross from US civilian market are a tiny drop in the bucket and not even of the type of weapons desired. What don't you comprehend about cartels wanting fully automatic military weapons cheaply instead of paying more for semi automatic copies, not to mention the risks of cross-border smuggling?

Your version of facts borders on delusional.

[Katya Mullethov]

17. It may border on delusional

But "The Iron River that fuels Mexican Border Violence " is the official story coming from the US Department of State , DHS , ATF , FBI , EPIC , and DEA since 2009 .

[jpak]

18. NRA talking points are truly delusional - that is why Mexico is planning to sue US gun dealers

yup

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. "NRA talking points" has become the functional equivalent of a Bible quote.

A saving throw to be used when you have nothing else....

[jpak]

21. I see them all the time here - lots of folks cite Wayne LaPierre's latest delusional sermon

yup

[PavePusher]

27. If "they" are so "delusional" then it should be quite an elementary effort....

to come up with actual evidence to refute them.

So far, you got bupkiss.

[Katya Mullethov]

32. Are the US Secretary of State and the Mexican President delusional ?

Or are they high ?
That's a very serious question . Was the intense and lengthy Iron River National Reeducation Campaign driven by delusion ? Or was it collusion and a Machiavellian construct ?
The consequences of the later conclusion (based on repeated patterns of behavior) are so serious as to be considered in the realm of the imponderable . But it is what they do for a living .
It's what they "produce" , and exactly the kind of innovative thinking that is driving our national.... economic .......recovery .

[Bold Lib]

46. "NRA talking points are truly delusional" - Translation.

You have no evidence to back up your fiction and cannot debate the point made.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Correction: Why Mexico is planning to lose in American courts.

[Tejas]

34. Fred Phelps says the same thing, and almost

has about as much of a leg to stand on as you.

[Bold Lib]

45. Still waiting on some evidence to back up your fiction. Oh wait, there is none.

YUP

[Bold Lib]

44. I take it you were unable to cite evidence of your claim? YUP!

[Bold Lib]

5. It is correct that the US exports many weapons through legal channels. So what?

We are discussing how the drug cartels get their illegal arms. The evidence is mounting that the majority is coming from south of their border. Or do you have any evidence to the contrary that has not been debunked?

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. IOW, the cartels are getting weapons from the US through US gun dealers

as well as from the US through US armed Central American governments.

[Maine_Nurse]

10. Dreck? How about truth.

The US civilian market is a tiny drop in the bucket, even with the BATFE screwup. What don't you understand about that?

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skink]

12. round trip trades.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

19. Well then, put your google-fu to work and dig up some primary documents

If the media accounts you posted are accurate, they will have sources for them. Find them and post them here.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

22. thanks for the assignment, prof, but I dropped your class

It's not incumbent on me to provide any information (irrespective of whether it's deleted or not). The OP has the burden of proof with the ridiculous assertion that the guns are magically coming from south of the Mexican border. But again, either way, it's US guns being used by narco thugs to slaughter and terrorize a population. The source of Mexican drug cartel guns is a settled matter; if you want someone to believe your cold fusion theory, you'll need to provide some proof--the real kind, preferably.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. True, you are not required to post a blessed thing.

But that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.


You may find the OP's evidence to be shoddy and biased- but it is there. Simply claiming it is a "ridculous assertion"

without further evidence of same is not a refutation.

The source of Mexican drug cartel guns is a settled matter...

Proclaiming something a 'settled matter' hardly makes it so. I'd go so far to say that such a claim is mere dogma.

[one-eyed fat man]

29. WikiLeaks disagrees with you

http://www.wikileaks.ch/cable/2009/03/09MONTERREY100.html

Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
09MONTERREY100 2009-03-03 17:05 2011-02-10 12:12 SECRET//NOFORN Consulate Monterrey


VZCZCXRO7584
PP RUEHWEB
DE RUEHMC #0100/01 0771547
ZNY SSSSS ZZH
P R 031719Z MAR 09 ZDS
FM AMCONSUL MONTERREY
TO RUEHME/AMEMBASSY MEXICO 4622
RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 3569
INFO RUEHXC/ALL US CONSULATES IN MEXICO COLLECTIVE
RUEHCD/AMCONSUL CIUDAD JUAREZ 0070
RHMFISS/DEPT OF JUSTICE WASHINGTON DC
RHMFISS/FBI WASHINGTON DC
RUEHGD/AMCONSUL GUADALAJARA 0114
RUEHGD/DTS GUADALAJARA
RUEHHO/AMCONSUL HERMOSILLO 0048
RUEHHO/DTS HERMOSILLO
RHMFISS/HQ USNORTHCOM
RUEHRS/AMCONSUL MATAMOROS 0260
RUEHRS/DTS MATAMOROS
RUEHRD/AMCONSUL MERIDA 0275
RUEHRD/DTS MERIDA
RUEHMC/AMCONSUL MONTERREY 9135
RUEHNG/AMCONSUL NOGALES 0012
RUEHNL/AMCONSUL NUEVO LAREDO 0221
RUEHNL/DTS NUEVO LAREDO
RUEHSN/AMEMBASSY SAN SALVADOR 0035
RUEHUL/AMEMBASSY SEOUL 0006
RUEHTM/AMCONSUL TIJUANA 0102
RUEHTM/DTS TIJUANA

194998
2009-03-03 17:19:00
09MONTERREY100
Consulate Monterrey
SECRET//NOFORN

VZCZCXRO7584
PP RUEHWEB
DE RUEHMC #0100/01 0771547
ZNY SSSSS ZZH
P R 031719Z MAR 09 ZDS
FM AMCONSUL MONTERREY
TO RUEHME/AMEMBASSY MEXICO 4622
RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 3569
INFO RUEHXC/ALL US CONSULATES IN MEXICO COLLECTIVE
RUEHCD/AMCONSUL CIUDAD JUAREZ 0070
RHMFISS/DEPT OF JUSTICE WASHINGTON DC
RHMFISS/FBI WASHINGTON DC
RUEHGD/AMCONSUL GUADALAJARA 0114
RUEHGD/DTS GUADALAJARA
RUEHHO/AMCONSUL HERMOSILLO 0048
RUEHHO/DTS HERMOSILLO
RHMFISS/HQ USNORTHCOM
RUEHRS/AMCONSUL MATAMOROS 0260
RUEHRS/DTS MATAMOROS
RUEHRD/AMCONSUL MERIDA 0275
RUEHRD/DTS MERIDA
RUEHMC/AMCONSUL MONTERREY 9135
RUEHNG/AMCONSUL NOGALES 0012
RUEHNL/AMCONSUL NUEVO LAREDO 0221
RUEHNL/DTS NUEVO LAREDO
RUEHSN/AMEMBASSY SAN SALVADOR 0035
RUEHUL/AMEMBASSY SEOUL 0006
RUEHTM/AMCONSUL TIJUANA 0102
RUEHTM/DTS TIJUANA

S E C R E T SECTION 01 OF 02 MONTERREY 000100

C O R R E C T E D C O P Y - Classification

NOFORN
SIPDIS

PM FOR DTCC FOR BALLARD, DS FOR IP/ITA, WHA FOR MEX AND CEN, EAP
FOR EAP/K
SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 3/3/2034
TAGS: ETTC MASS SNAR PGOV KCRM CASC MX KS
SUBJECT: MEXICO: TRACKING NARCO-GRENADES

CLASSIFIED BY: Bruce Williamson, Principal Offficer, Consul
General Monterrey, State.
REASON: 1.4 (a), (b), (d)
1. (SBU) During recent months Mexican narco-traffickers have
directed a series of grenade attacks directed against, inter
alia, Mexican law enforcement and military facilities, civilian
crowds, and U.S. consular installations. The escalation in the
strength and power of the weapons used by the narco-traffickers
has not only cost lives, but has taken its toll in terms of the
damage done to local civil society.

2. (S) AmConsulate General Monterrey's ATF Office, the ATF
Explosives Technology Branch, and AmEmbassy Mexico DAO have been
working with Mexican law enforcement authorities to identify the
origin of various grenades and other explosive devices recovered
locally over the past few months, including the unexploded M26A2
fragmentation grenade hurled at the Consulate itself during the
October 11, 2008 attack. Other ordnance recovered includes 21
grenades recovered by Mexican law enforcement on October 16,
2008 after a raid at a narco-warehouse in Guadalupe (a working
class suburb of Monterrey), and twenty-five 40mm explosive
projectiles, a U.S. M203 40mm grenade launcher, and three South
Korean K400 fragmentation grenades recovered the same day in an
abandoned armored vehicle that suspected narco-traffickers used
to escape apprehension.

3. (S/NF) Local Mexican law enforcement has recovered a
Grenade spoon and pull ring from an exploded hand grenade used
in a January 6, 2009 attack on Televisa Monterrey, a Monterrey
television station. Based upon ATF examination, it appears that
the grenade used in the attack on the Consulate has the same lot
number, and is of similar design and style, as the three of the
grenades found at the narco-warehouse in Guadalupe. On January
7, 2009, the Mexican Army recovered 14 M-67 fragmentation
grenades and 1 K400 fragmentation grenade in Durango City,
Durango. Finally and perhaps most disturbing, on January 31,
2009 three men tossed a K-75 grenade into a night club near
Pharr, Texas -- an East Texas border town --but the grenade did
not explode. The attackers may have been targeting three
off-duty police officers who were in the club at the time.

4. (S) The lot numbers of some of the grenades recovered,
including the grenade used in the attack on Televisa, indicate
that previously ordnance with these same lot numbers may have
been sold by the USG to the El Salvadoran military in the early
1990s via the Foreign Military Sales program. We would like to
thank AmEmbassy San Salvador for its ongoing efforts to query
the Government of El Salvador as whether any of its stocks of
grenades and other munitions have been diverted or are otherwise
unaccounted for.

5. (SBU) AmConsulate Monterrey requests that Department
instruct AmEmbassy Seoul to discreetly query the Korean
government regarding the whereabouts, disposition, and the
possibility of any missing stocks of South Korean-made:

--- 40mm High Explosives Cartridges K200, with Lot numbers
HWB95L615-012; HWB95L615-014; EC-87E615-061; EC-88G615-071,
EC-84D610-096, EC-83H615-012, and EC-83H815-012.

--- K400 Fragmentation Grenades, with Lot numbers
EC-89E605-063, HEB96H605-033, HWB96H605-033, HWB96H-609-003,
KG94DK400002-017, KG94D002-017, HWB89S605-063, ME183D, and
HWB95K605-029.

--- K402 Fragmentation Grenades, with Lot numbers HWB96H605-063
and HWB96H605-033.


MONTERREY 00000100 002 OF 002


--- K75 Fragmentation Grenade, with Lot numbers EC-85E605-031
and EC89E605-073.

6. (SBU) Any information as to the destination of this
ordnance and to whom it may have been sold would be most
appreciated. This information will be used in an U.S. ongoing
criminal investigation.
WILLIAMSON

[GreenStormCloud]

30. Not magic. Just Cold War left-overs.

Maybe you aren't old enough to remember Iran-Contra. The U.S. equiped lots of rebels and governments to "fight Communism" during the 1980s. And the Soviets also poured in guns. Many of the M-16s that were captured had serial numbers of rifles that were given to South Vietnam pre-1975. We supplied mostly AK-47s to the Contas and M-16s to the El Salvador government. The Soviets supplied AK-47s to Nicaragua and M-16 to rebels. Guns are extremely durable. Almost all of those guns are still functional. They are the source of much of the hardware arming the cartels in Mexico.

[Tejas]

41. "ridiculous assertion that the guns are magically coming from south of the Mexican border"

"The source of Mexican drug cartel guns is a settled matter"


I like your handle, it's one of the most clever I've ever seen, seriously, no BS whatsoever, just wanted to mention that before I refer you to









post #38 in this thread.




Being as you thought up such a clever handle/nickname, I will hope that you'll digest #38 as something other than just a drop in the bucket or isolated incident...and come to the realization that smuggling of guns across Mexico's southern border is indeed a fact.




Seriously, your nickname is cool :)




disclaimer so I don't get teh tazuh: no, Katya Mullethov, not as cool as yours :) :) :)

[rrneck]

23. Shucks, I never saw it.

Try reposting it without the personal attack, bigoted smear, or excluded forum specific terminology and I'll bet you won't have a problem.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

24. Thank you for the sage advice, mister Neck.

You're right. I was bad and mentioned dirtysexthings that don't have anything at all to do with guns. I've now learned to stick to the murderous and vile topic at hand. I'm sorry that my reply was so...inadequate (check me on that word--I'm not clear on whether you permit it or not).

[rrneck]

25. I'm not a moderator.

How about that info Mr. Disgustipated. Eat a muffin. Or maybe you already did, which would explain your post.

:rofl:

[DisgustipatedinCA]

28. wait, wait....I get it.

Maybe I ate a muffin. Maybe it was a bran muffin, or something else high in fiber. And that will make me full of....thinking, thinking....oh, poop (I don't want to say the badword). So like, I'm full of it.

Hey, that's pretty cool, and you've shown yourself to be very, very clever. Why don't we team up. We can both conduct personal attacks on other posters, and mine can be deleted while yours aren't. Then, during our downtime, we can talk about blowing away perps and scumbags and suchforth. Maybe some of your advanced wit will eventually rub off on me and I, too, can place icons on the floor so as to maniacally laugh at my own humor. Neato. I'll call you later on and we can decide what to wear tomorrow, k? TTYL.

[Tejas]

35. "talk about blowing away perps and scumbags"

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter

[rrneck]

37. Got that info yet

or are you incapable of posting without getting your knickers in a twist?

[Tejas]

38. Los Zetas busted at -----------> Guatemala airport (150 AK-47's + $60k)

Googled Guatemal + AK-47 and got this original link:
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2010/12/21/guatemala-seizes-plane-guns-cash-anti-drug-raids/

For some reason the page won't load on my computer so here is the cached link:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Hxgir2u9dAwJ:latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2010/12/21/guatemala-seizes-plane-guns-cash-anti-drug-raids/+guatemala+ak-47&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com



US gun stores are Mexico's least worry, much less US gunowners.