Missouri shooting case tests Castle Doctrine

[Logical]

Sounds like the shooter reacted too quickly to me but of course I was not there. Interesting case though.

She kept thinking that if only she hadn't gone to her neighbor's house to try to settle a dispute, the father of her two children would still be alive.

"I put myself through a really bad guilt trip," she said. "I relive that night: 'Well, if I hadn't gone down there, things would be so different; he would still be here.'"

But on that night --about 8 p.m. Jan. 17 --Hicks was shot and killed, allegedly by a neighbor whom he and Lawson called a friend.

When police arrived, they found Hicks lying on the front steps of that neighbor's house with a fatal gunshot wound to the upper chest.

<snip>

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110424/NEWS01/104240371/Nixa-shooting-case-tests-Castle-Doctrine?odyssey=tab

[no_hypocrisy]

1. I wonder how well will The Castle Doctrine hold up when the situation allowed for

police assistance before things spiraled out of control?

[MineralMan]

2. This should be an interesting thing to follow.

It's right on the edge, it seems to me.

My rule is that they don't come into the house. I will not shoot someone outside of the house unless they are firing at the house.

If they come into the house, they will have had to use force to enter. They will not survive that entry.

[geckosfeet]

7. It must be nice to make up your own laws. Try taking that one to court.

Castle Doctrine

A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal doctrine arising from English Common Law<1> that designates one's place of residence (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as one's car or place of work) as a place in which one enjoys protection from illegal trespassing and violent attack. It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his "castle"), and any other innocent persons legally inside it, from violent attack or an intrusion which may lead to violent attack. In a legal context, therefore, use of deadly force which actually results in death may be defended as justifiable homicide under the Castle Doctrine.

Of course, your mileage may vary with driving habits, terrain and weather conditions.

[MineralMan]

19. Actually, what I described is following the law where I live

exactly. If someone makes forcible entry, I am justified in fearing for my life and the lives of other residents. The forcible entry is sufficient evidence of a violent intent.

If they remain outside, and do not make entry, I would be on very shaky ground if I shot them.

It is that simple.

[geckosfeet]

23. Yes - forcible entry I think, would have me aiming as well

[jpak]

3. Castle Doctrine = legalized murder, and we will see more of this with more GOP/NRA Castle laws - yup

"But yer honor I felt threatened"

bang bang yer dead

no charges

yup

[geckosfeet]

5. Again, the proper phrase is 'yup yup yup'

[jpak]

6. yup yup yup

better?

:rofl:

[geckosfeet]

9. tanks

[Logical]

12. So are all justified shootings "Legal Murder" based on your logic? n-t

[DrDan]

31. and this was justified how?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

35. oh, I see what you are doing...

you do not want to broaden the discussion. You are attempting to stifle discussion.

[DrDan]

60. and how do you arrive at that bogus conclusion?

[GreenStormCloud]

52. No one here claims that it was.

So far we view it as suspicious.

[DrDan]

61. I seem to see several posts that conclude that this shooting was justified

[GreenStormCloud]

62. Only from the antis like you who want to use it as an excuse to ban guns.

Castle Doctrine laws only cover shootings INSIDE the residence. It is fairly difficult to make the self-defense argument for shooting someone who is outside presenting no threat.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. justifiable homicide and we will only see it if More people illegally enter

people's homes, especially after midnight.

and I betcha "yerhonor" has a gun at home.

[DrDan]

32. what was justified about it? What do he do that was "illegal"

[Tuesday Afternoon]

34. are you saying that there is not such a thing as justifiable homicide?

are you saying that nothing is illegal?

IF a person illegally enters (espcially after midnight)

that is all I was saying.

[DrDan]

59. I never said that at all - you seem to be saying this case was justified

just would like to understand how you came to that conclusion

[jpak]

36. It's all about shooting someone and getting away with it

doesn't matter if it's the diabetic having an insulin reaction or an Alzheimer patient confused over where they live or yer daughter's boyfriend on alate night visit

as long as they are dead dead dead we are safe in our Castle

yup

[Tuesday Afternoon]

40. no, it is not about that and you know it.

I don't have a daughter. Where I live, I doubt that a confused Alzheimer patient could stumble and the diabetic with the insulin reaction does not live with or near me.

Protecting myself and dead, dead, dead are 2 very different things.

You can not legislate away every possiblity.

Have you no common sense?

You have an agenda and that is fine.

Guess what in America both sides get to discuss the issues, both sides of it.

We have judges and juries to decide on the individual cases.

[GreenStormCloud]

54. If they kick the door in, then none of that matters.

Why would a diabetic kick my door down? Why would an Alzheirmer patient kick my door in? Why would a daughter's boyfriend kick the door in? You seem to forget about the violent entry part of the equation. If someone kicks my door in then I don't have the time to ask them why. But if it is just some guy knocking on the door then I can call the police as long as he is outside.

[geckosfeet]

4. Does not sound justified to me, but I was not there either.

The incident report stated that no weapon was found on or around the body of Hicks after he was shot.

Amanda Hicks said she didn't believe her father was presenting an imminent danger to the neighbor or his wife.

"I've read up on (the Castle Doctrine). I've read the whole thing. I've analyzed it," she said. "And what I get from it is that you can protect yourself (with deadly force) if it's either your life or their life."

[jpak]

8. When the Texas moran shot two alleged burglars in his *neighbor's* yard...

That didn't seemed justified either

but the moran walked

legalized murder

yup

[Logical]

10. The guy was an idiot in Texas and should have went to jail. But of course you ignore....

the cases where it helps people.

[jpak]

14. Helps people to do what - kill people?

It's a vigilante miscarriage of justice

yup

[Logical]

16. LOL....so no shooting is ever justified to you? Figures. n-t

[geckosfeet]

11. Seems like it. Amazing that in 2011, we are still hashing this out in the courts.

And it appears that sanity is losing.

[Upton]

20. "That didn't seemed justified either"

A Texas grand jury decided otherwise..and to you, nothing seems justified. Apparently you expect us all to just cower in fear when confronted.

[geckosfeet]

24. Sorry to hear about your 'cowering in fear' problems, but the willy nilly shooting

of people who scare you is not proper use of the castle doctrine.

[jpak]

25. The Texas grand jury let the Texas Castle Moran walk

Clue: he shot 2 men that were *not on his property* because he *thought* they were breaking into *someone else's house*

The 911 operator tried to stop him

but the moran invoked the Castle Doctrine and shot them anyway.

Legalized murder

yup

[PavePusher]

21. And that was under a different set of laws, unique to Texas....

as you have been told before.

-1 for dishonesty.

[GreenStormCloud]

55. They were on his yard when he fired.

The responding deputy arrived as Horn fired and the deputy said that the burglars had started to come at Horn. And they weren't "alleged" burglars, they were burglars. Further, Texas law is different from Missouri law.

[S_B_Jackson]

22. I think much is going to turn upon daddy's little girl's conduct......

and whether or not the daughter, Amanda Hicks, actually made the type of calls that are being alleged.

However, the biggest question would be whether the suspect reasonably believed he needed to use deadly force, he said.

According to the police incident report, the suspect's wife "made several spontaneous statements that Rex's daughter, Amanda Hicks, had called her several times and told her that Rex was going to come over and kill them."

If she did make those calls, then the daughter may have to come to terms with the fact that her behavior likely cost her father his life........

[The Magistrate]

15. This Is Murder, Sir, Cut And Dried: Hesitation By the Prosecutor Is Idiocy Or Incompetence

[Logical]

17. Yes, because you were there and know exactly what was going on. Glad you are not.....

on a real jury.

[The Magistrate]

18. There Is Sufficient Information in The Accounts Provided, Sir

The man who shot was beating a woman, her boy-friend approached, and the man beating the woman shot him dead.

Had Mr. Hicks approached with a pistol and shot the man beating Ms.Lawsaon, he would have been acting properly and legally.

[Logical]

26. Yes, because a local newspaper coverage is what we should base...

guilt on. Wow, that would save a lot of time and money in a trial. Great idea!

[The Magistrate]

27. Good Luck With That Line, Sweetie....

"The meaning of an utterance is that taken from it by the auditor."

[Logical]

28. Not sure what that means. Not as smart as you I guess. n-t

[Katya Mullethov]

29. You tweeked the "Sir " right out of 'em

Good shot .

[The Magistrate]

33. Courteous Respect, Ma'am, is The Proper Opening Position

But it is quite possible for a person to demonstrate it is folly to continue on that line in the individual case....

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. !

lord, the pomp. and the quotes with no credit given. you are a true gem.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

41. !

wow. the condescension is palpable.

[The Magistrate]

43. People Who Think They Are Being Condescended To, Ma'am, Usually Know Best Their Own Level....

[Tuesday Afternoon]

44. people who capitalize every word in their post

are of a level all their own.

good day, sir.

[The Magistrate]

48. Having Quite A Good Day, Ma'am

Just put the leg of lamb in the oven, cooking it with mint and apple juice: it should be out around four-thirty. The older grand-children will be going off to spend easter money, and the youngest is down for her nap, so we will have the house to ourselves for a bit, which is always pleasant.

The small increment of amusement you are adding is welcome, though hardly necessary....

[Tuesday Afternoon]

51. same for you

you have given me quite the grin. Sanctimonious, judgmental people tend to do that. Happy Easter!

[DrDan]

30. sad - but will certainly not be the last of incidents like this

no wonder we are the laughing-stock around the world with our rambo-like approach to gun laws.

[Taitertots]

37. She went over to cause a fight about some alleged debt and got exactly what she was looking for

Now she will have to deal with the guilt of knowing that her actions caused the death of someone she cared about.

Hicks had no business being there in the first place. He was jumping in on the side of the aggressor against two people fighting in self defense.

[1monster]

38. What an incredibly sexist piece of garbage that line is. No woman looks for

(as in wants) a man to beat her!

I'm so thouroghly disgusted by your post that I don't dare to comment further so as to avoid breaking TOS. :grr:

[Taitertots]

39. If they attack his wife than that is exactly what they are doing

Men have as much right to defend themselves and their loved ones as Women do.

[one-eyed fat man]

42. Clear something up for me then

If a woman physically assaults a man, what are his options? Maybe I am just too Neanderthal but it would seem to me if some woman comes up to someone and starts slapping and hitting them, they are asking for a fight. Are you saying they should just suffer the abuse until she gets "it" out of her system?

"If you're looking for trouble, I'll accommodate you. Otherwise, leave it alone."

[1monster]

46. Please enlighten me on where the partner of the man who was killed

physically attacked the killer or his wife. I've read the article twice now, and perhaps may have misinterperted something, but I read the woman confronted her neighbors about money owed to her and that she was beaten by the killer and his wife. Not that the woman had physically attacked them.

Please point out where I misunderstood what I read or another link that states she attacked them.

[one-eyed fat man]

47. Nowhere in this case does it say.

You made the blanket statement:

"What an incredibly sexist piece of garbage that line is. No woman looks for(as in wants) a man to beat her!"

I suppose in all cases then you are still correct, even if she is the assailant she doesn't want the man to beat her.

I don't know what happened. It may have started as a cat fight and then husbands and boyfriends got involved. The husband and wife may have been beating up the other woman, I sure don't have a clue. But if she went over there spoiling for a fight, she has no bitch coming if she got one.

[The Magistrate]

49. The Statement 'I Sure Don't have a Clue', Sir, Ought To Be Followed by Silence

As that is an announcement a person has nothing useful to say on the matter at hand....

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[one-eyed fat man]

63. well, I see.

May as well have added peevish, petulant and hypersensitive.

[Taitertots]

50. Why don't you show me where they were allowed to speak in their own defense

This article is nothing but an ideologically driven hit piece of junk journalism featuring nothing but the uncontested ramblings of the person who caused the incident.

[Hoyt]

53. Another trigger happy gun owner shooting an unarmed man. Glad this wasn't at a public place.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GreenStormCloud]

56. Getting involved in domestic disputes is the number one cop killer.

NEVER, ever, personally go the home of a fighting couple while the fight is going on. If need be call the cops and let them handle it. On the face of it this doesn't sound like self-defense, but there could be other factors.

[geckosfeet]

64. Probably the most pragmatic reply on the thread... a no brainer if you are in

a metro/urban area with a well staffed and accessible police department - as (I suspect) most of us are.