GUNS IN THE NEWS--April 2, 2004

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
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[MrBenchley]

1. Man arrested in Agawam after attempt to steal drugs (MA)

"PITTSFIELD -- The Hillcrest Campus of Berkshire Medical Center was evacuated yesterday after a man armed with a handgun walked into a clinic and demanded narcotics.
Police said that Robert Fitzgerald, 21, walked into the New England Pain Center at Hillcrest at approximately 12:30 p.m. and demanded that an employee give him OxyContin, a powerful prescription painkiller used to treat severe pain such as that suffered by cancer patients. Fitzgerald allegedly showed that he had a handgun tucked into his waistband."

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/Stories/0,1413,101~7514~2057580,00.html

[slackmaster]

2. Woman shoots husband, 2nd woman, self (CA)

All expected to live; wife tried suicide twice in 2 days

By Gregory Alan Gross and Joe Hughes
STAFF WRITERS

April 2, 2004

JOHN GIBBINS / Union-Tribune
Police Officer Jay Gresham gathered evidence from a car in which a woman was shot by another woman who had shot her own husband. She then drove to the San Diego-Coronado Bridge, where she shot herself.

A woman who tried to kill herself Wednesday shot her husband and another woman yesterday before again trying to take her own life – a day after being released from a mental hospital for the first suicide attempt, authorities said.

All three were expected to survive, though the husband was reported in critical condition, officials said....

...Dr. Jack Shale, the county's director of mental health services, refused to detail Morris' treatment, citing patient confidentiality laws. By law, patients must be released from the emergency room within 24 hours, Shale said. For those who need more serious care, patients can be held no longer than 72 hours without a court order. About 10 percent of those who enter the hospital against their will are admitted. Patients who are threatening suicide are evaluated case by case, Shale said....

Another Great Victory(TM) for California's 36-year-old handgun registry. Every day we see stories about people who COULD have been disarmed and SHOULD have been disarmed but were not. I don't see any legal basis for disarming the shooter in this case, but surely someone around her - her husband, perhaps? - must have known she had access to a weapon but didn't so anything about it.

Gun control isn't always about government taking more power over peoples' lives. Sometimes people need to take action to protect themselves and others from a loved one who is having problems.

[iverglas]

5. absolutely

Gun control isn't always about government taking more power over peoples' lives. Sometimes people need to take action to protect themselves and others from a loved one who is having problems.

That can be said about any law: it only works if it's enforced, and somebody has to enforce it.

People do need to take action. But they also need the legal basis for taking action.

I can envision a Firearms Prohibition Order being sought, up here, in a case like this. (I have no idea whether it would be, but if the first suicide attempt had been made with a firearm, at least, I would hope it would be.) More simply, it would likely just be impossible for the woman to obtain permission to acquire a firearm, if she had already used one in a dangerous manner. If she had access to another firearm illegally, a firearms prohibition order would just be a way of dealing with the problem post facto, if she were alive (or with whoever gave it to her, if she weren't, although that person would already have made an unlawful transfer.)

Of course, it's doubtful that the woman would have been in legal possession of the firearm anyway, here, since it was likely a handgun. So it could simply have been removed without any need for a proceeding to bar her from owning it.

In both cases, someone would indeed have had to inform the appropriate authorities - police - about the existence of the firearm and her possession of / access to it. And the police would have had to have the authority to remove it. Otherwise, taking away her gun would just be theft, no matter who did it.

Now of course, it's fairly likely, up here, that she wouldn't have had a firearm at all. In that case, she might have succeeded in killing herself, but she wouldn't as likely have killed or injured anyone else.

.

[slackmaster]

6. Does a person have a legal basis for taking a gun away from a spouse?

People do need to take action. But they also need the legal basis for taking action.

I'm asking kind of a common law question, I think.

Suppose you are married and your spouse attempts suicide. Can you take your spouse's gun away on your own authority, without some kind of official order, judgement, edict, etc.?

[iverglas]

7. I wouldn't say so

Does a person have a legal basis for taking a gun away from a spouse?

I'd think it's kind of like taking away his/her bank account. ;)

There's always the "necessity" defence (yup, common law, now generally recognized by statute) -- which would work for anybody, not just spouses (including "common law" spouses of course, haha) -- but I don't think it would work for a permanent taking-away. Just whatever taking is necessary to avert an imminent danger.

.

[TX-RAT]

8. Possible case of negligence if you didn't.

[MrBenchley]

3. Coroner Says Easley Antique Dealer Was Shot To Death (NC)

"An Easley man found dead a week after he was reported missing was shot to death.
Anderson County Coroner Greg Shore said Bryan Nick Moore, 36, was shot in the face and chest. Moore's body was found in a wooded area off Highway 81 on March 12, a week after he was reported missing. "

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040401/lo_wyff/2077404

[MrBenchley]

4. Police kill gunman after fatal shooting in Las Vegas bar-casino

"Police shot and killed a man moments after witnesses said he gunned down a customer inside an off-Strip bar-casino, authorities said.
Witnesses said the customer was shot after trying to stop the gunman from shooting at the bartender. Police said the man died later at University Medical Center. His name was not immediately released.
Two officers confronted the gunman in a rear parking lot of the Eureka Casino, and shot him when he raised his handgun, Las Vegas police Capt. Tom Lozich said. "

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/02/state0956EST0051.DTL

[MrBenchley]

9. One killed, two injured in Olympia bar shooting (WA)

"OLYMPIA, Wash. - Police said they're getting information from witnesses that should allow them to identify a suspect in today's fatal shooting outside an Olympia nightspot.
Commander Tor Bjornstad said the gunman was known to some of the people involved in the dispute at the Bar Code bar.
It began after two men were asked to leave. One said he'd be back with a gun. The club closed down and people were still on the sidewalk outside about 1:30 a.m. when the man showed up and opened fire. "

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_040204WABolympiashootingEL.e6cbd8c4.html

[Superfly]

29. I was in Oly during this shooting...

just came back from vacation yesterday. Suspects and victims were members of rival gangs from Lakewood or University Place, both suburbs of Tacoma. The suspects had prior arrests and convictions....they were picked up within a few minutes of the shooting trying to get back on I-5 headed north.

The shameful thing about this is that these fuckers brought their crime to Olympia, which is a quiet little hippy town (Home of the extremely progressive Evergreen State College). I lived about 1 mile from this bar where the shooting occured (called the Bar Code) and I never felt threatened while walking to and from the many great clubs in downtown Oly. The good thing is, I s'pose, is that the Oly crowd is a tight one, and should respond positively to keeping this kind of thing from happening in the town again.

Too bad for Olympia.

[MrBenchley]

10. Ex-CMU Professor Guilty In Mt. Lebo Cop-Shoot (PA)

"An Allegheny County jury found a retired Carnegie Mellon University professor guilty of trying to kill a Mount Lebanon police officer, Channel 4's Sheldon Ingram reported Friday.
Edward Constant, 61, of Mount Lebanon, was convicted of attempted homicide and aggravated assault for the incident at his Piper Drive home on April 30, 2002.
Prosecutors said Constant shot Officer Dan Rieg in the chest and fired in the direction of Officer Jeff Kite after both came to his home to investigate reports of a loud argument. Rieg was shielded by his bulletproof vest. "

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040402/lo_wtae/2078203

[MrSandman]

11. Three Arrested After Shootout At Meat Company(CT)

EAST HAVEN, Conn. -- Three suspects were arrested in the attempted robbery of a meat company in which the owner of the business and a suspect were wounded.

Armed men shot the owner in the leg during a robbery attempt Thursday night, according to police. The victim also shot one of the alleged robbers, police said.

Police said Joseph Gigliotti, owner of New Haven Provisions of Foxon Road, underwent surgery at Hospital of Saint Raphael in New Haven Thursday night. His condition was not available Friday morning.
http://www.nbc30.com/news/2969931/detail.html

Three thugs off of streets of CT.

[MrSandman]

12. Would-be robber dead, victim jailed (LA)

(Shreveport-AP) -- A would-be robber is dead and one of his victims is in jail on drug charges after a home invasion in Shreveport. Police say 22-year-old Carlos Cannon of Shreveport died after allegedly breaking into a home early yesterday morning and being shot by the homeowner, 24-year-old Quirinius Wilson.

Detective Jeff Brown says Wilson and his wife were asleep when Cannon and at least two other men allegedly forced their way inside. Brown says Wilson heard the door being kicked in and told his wife to hide in the closet.

Cannon, armed with a semiautomatic handgun, charged down the hall but didn't make it farther than the open bedroom door when he was hit in the abdomen by more than 12 rounds fired from Wilson's SKS assault rifle.

http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=1758170&nav=EyAzM0ei


Who says regular capacity mags hold too many rounds?

Is there a WOD thread?

[Low Drag]

13. Minnesota DGU

See this for the full details, including a link to the police report.
Sorry, checked link to police rpt and it's dead.

Short form: We've now got the first documented self-defense case by a Minnesota permit holder since the carry bill passed. (There's been some others, apparently, but they weren't well-documented.) This one is.

It's really, really nice -- no "blood on the streets." No "leaping pistols." No shots fired -- and the cops who were called to the scene conducted themselves with exemplary professionalism.

The Event

The short form is this: guy -- call him Frank; I don't know his name and don't want to -- is driving down the street on Valley View Road, wanting to make a left turn, when he comes near a bicyclist. Let's call the bicyclist Bozo (you'll see why in a second); he's a fifty-year-old guy, 5'11", 195 pounds. Frank's a young guy, not quite 22, and has a carry permit, and is carrying a .45 caliber semiauto.

It's one in the afternoon.

Now, there's some conflict in the statements, but it comes down to this:

For whatever reason -- Frank's take is that it was to get Bozo's attention, so he wouldn't end up running over Bozo -- Frank honks his horn as he approaches, then goes on by. Frank stops at the red light. Bozo rides up, drops his bike in front of Frank's car, and walks up to the driver's side window, which Frank starts trying to roll up.

Bozo either "asked what he was trying to do," or said, "What the **** do you think you're doing, you ****ing punk?" and grabs Frank.

No question that Bozo grabbed Frank: Bozo only admits to grabbing Frank; Frank says Bozo was trying to choke him.

Frank, who has a permit, tells Bozo that he's got a gun, and goes for it at the same time that he's trying to roll the window up.

Bozo backs up, and when the light turns green, Frank drives through the intersection, going over the bike as he does, getting far enough away so that he can keep an eye on Bozo, and sees him going into the PDQ store there, but not close enough to resume the confrontation.

The Witness

The witness, a bus driver, saw it, from the point where Bozo was at the window. He didn't report seeing Bozo choke Frank, but he did see the bike in front of the car, and Frank drive off, over the bike.

The Aftermath

Both Bozo and Frank call the cops -- Frank via 911 on his cell phone; Bozo via the pay phone at the PDQ store across the street. Bozo reports it as a "road rage incident."

Eden Prairie Officers Miles, White, and Sergeant DeMann respond. (It's not clear to me when the Sergeant is on scene; it's possibly later.)

And they do it right. They temporarily relieve Frank of his handgun, and ask him what happens. He tells them that he was attacked, that he feared injury, and that he "had to run over the bike in order to escape." They talk to the witness, and to Bozo, who admits grabbing Frank.

The cops return Frank's gun to him.

Bozo, upon advice of the city attorney, gets arrested, and charged with 5th degree assault...

[iverglas]

14. and having dealt with such people

... I know exactly how much of the story told by Frank (a fit 22-year-old gun-toting punk who obviously believes that he owns the road and is master of everything else in the universe) I believe, vs. how much of the story told by Bozo (a middle-aged man on a bicycle going about his own business when he is, for no reason, terrorized by said punk asserting his ownership of the road and mastery of the universe by intentionally scaring the shit out of him) I believe.

Sorry, punk. You don't honk your horn at middle-aged men on bicycles for no reason whatsoever. If you are afraid that you might run over them, you slow down and pay attention. It's called sharing the road, which, despite your personal rules of life, doesn't belong to you. Honking your horn at them from close quarters, on the other hand, might just cause that accident you claim to have been wanting to avert. Not that you care, since you're safe in your big car-car and have nothing to fear from middle-aged men on bicycles. But of course, if any of them ever dare to challenge your ownership of the road and mastery of the universe, you've got your pocket pistol to march them back into line with.

Who knows; if the punks of the world didn't have their pocket pistols, they might not be so quick to terrorize middle-aged men on bicycles from the safety of their big car-cars; or they might only do it once and think better of it next time.

Of course, I also know which of these two groups of people a lot of cops most closely resemble, so I'm not at all surprised at the outcome of this little tale.

.

[slackmaster]

16. Honking a horn, even if done capriciously, is not assault

Grabbing someone in anger over a non-physical provocation, or a perceived one, is definitely assault.

I can see the cyclist's POV here, being an occasional rider myself. But nothing Frank did justifies Bozo committing assault.

Nobody goes to jail for improper use of a car horn.

and having dealt with such people

It's always sooooooo refreshing to see someone on a "progressive" forum indulging in stereotyping.

:eyes:

[iverglas]

19. ah

You believe *Frank*. I don't, you see.

From the account:

The witness, a bus driver, saw it, from the point where Bozo was at the window. He didn't report seeing Bozo choke Frank, but he did see the bike in front of the car, and Frank drive off, over the bike.

We have Frank's word for the choking ... and me, I don't believe the 22-year-old gun-toting punk who honks his horn at middle-aged men on bicycles for no reason other than that he's a punk. (There just ain't any other reason to do that.)

But nothing Frank did justifies Bozo committing assault.

Unfortunately, people who have just been scared shitless by someone, and felt their safety and security endangered for no reason, don't always act completely calmly to the person who did it.

Nope, yer Frank brought the whole thing on himself. That's not to say that yer Bozo should not be charged for assault; we do expect people to maintain their self-control -- but in situations where it is extremely difficult, we also make allowances where no harm is done.

And Frank will just go on his merry psychopathic way, terrorizing anyone who he thinks is in it.

And I guess he'd just better hope that none of *them* ever has a pistol in his pocket, eh?

.

[slackmaster]

22. I don't necessarily believe Frank, but I know a couple of things

And Frank will just go on his merry psychopathic way, terrorizing anyone who he thinks is in it.

1. You aren't qualified to diagnose Frank's behavior as "psychopathic" based on the information presented here, and

2. You don't know what's going on inside of Frank's head.

You believe *Frank*. I don't, you see.

It looks like you harbor a bias against Frank. You don't have any evidence that Frank is telling a fib other than your opinion of what sort of person he is. That's prejudice. You'd rather automatically believe someone who may be facing assault charges than believe Frank's account. They both called the police. They both think they're right. That's usually the case in disputes. It sounds to me like they both could have handled the situation better, but allowed emotions to overcome them. What is it about Frank you don't like? The fact that he's a motorist? The fact that he has a gun and a permit to carry it?

On edit: Or perhaps you're just so pro-bike that you have to always take the cyclist's side. I know a few "people like that". :D

I don't give Frank's account any more or less credibility than Bozo's account, which hasn't even been aired here.

[iverglas]

23. how much clearer to I have to make it?

What is it about Frank you don't like? The fact that he's a motorist? The fact that he has a gun and a permit to carry it?

THE FACT THAT HE HONKED HIS HORN AT A MIDDLE-AGED BICYCLIST FOR NO REASON.

I thought I'd made that perfectly clear. And despite your effort to dream one up, FRANK STATED NO REASON FOR HONKING HIS HORN. "I wanted him to stay out of my way", which is what his "reason" comes down to, is NOT A REASON to honk a horn at a bicyclist in traffic.

I'm sure you know what the purpose of a car horn is. It isn't a doorbell, it isn't a device by which to communicate "here I come! watch out!" to other users of roads. It is a warning of danger. It is designed to catch the attention of anyone in the vicinity and alert them to a possible danger. It is specifically designed to startle. That is what it's for, and that is exactly what it does.

People who use their car horns as doorbells, or to make other people get out of their way, or to express their emotions, are punks.

It looks like you harbor a bias against Frank.

You need to learn what "bias" means.

My assessment of Frank is based on what he did.

If I dislike someone who beats up children, I am not biased against him/her, I have made a judgment of him/her based on what s/he did. I don't dislike George W. Bush out of "bias" against him.

Now, if I were to disbelieve Frank *because* he is a car-honking punk, yeah, you might call that bias.

But I disbelieve Frank both

(a) because he is a car-honking punk and because of my vast experience with punks, car-honking and otherwise, and my knowledge of how freely and easily they lie to protect themselves; and

(b) because I find the actual story of a middle-aged man trying to choke a punk through a car window somewhat not credible -- especially given that no one else seems to have seen it happen, including the disinterested witness.

Frank would have known perfectly well that if he had pulled out his pistol simply to settle a dispute (that he started), it would have looked pretty bad on him. How much better it would have sounded, when it came time to tell his story to the authorities (the fact being that he called the cops only once he saw the writing on the wall) if he had to do it because someone was choking him, hm?

Or perhaps you're just so pro-bike that you have to always take the cyclist's side. I know a few "people like that"

Y'know, the funny thing is that I'm thinking of a very, very similar incident I know of in which the bicyclist was the punk. So much for that theory, eh?

.

[slackmaster]

28. This story has too little data for hard conclusions

THE FACT THAT HE HONKED HIS HORN AT A MIDDLE-AGED BICYCLIST FOR NO REASON....

...FRANK STATED NO REASON FOR HONKING HIS HORN.

Do you see that those statements don't jibe?

The sketchy account presented here does not necessarily support the interpretation that Frank's use of his horn was improper. It may be the case, or it may not. But whether or not the honking was justified may make no difference to the core of the matter, i.e. whether or not Frank's use of his pistol was a proper defensive gun use (DGU). And that hinges on what Bozo said and what Bozo did when he confronted Frank. "Starting" an altercation does not make an individual solely accountable for every event that flows from whatever act triggered the interaction.

My assessment of Frank is based on what he did.

You don't really know what Frank did. All you have is a third-hand account. Your interpretation of the story has extrapolations and assumptions that are not necessarily supported by the information presented here. You might be right, or not. You seem to be very sure of yourself. I'm not sure about what happened. I'm not sure the DGU was legitimate, OTOH reading your post carefully I see you haven't said you are completely sure it was not.

Y'know, the funny thing is that I'm thinking of a very, very similar incident I know of in which the bicyclist was the punk. So much for that theory, eh?

That was the first thing that came to my mind when I read the story. I've seen many indicidents in which a hot-headed bicyclist did something stupid in response to a traffic altercation involving a motor vehicle. Often the car driver is in the wrong, but some bicyclists, men in particular, are capable of overreacting. I personally know middle-aged males who are militant car-haters. I have no difficulty at all believing that Bozo either assaulted or threatened Frank, which would make his action a legitimate DGU (which was the core point of this sub-thread, BTW).

I also have no problem believing that Frank was in the wrong and embellished his story or lied to cover his ass.

We don't really know what happened.

[MrSandman]

30. Sure, but uncertain?

[MrBenchley]

18. Meanwhile

for those of us who find RKBA "logic" such an entertaining lapse of reason:

"See this for the full details, including a link to the police report.
Sorry, checked link to police rpt and it's dead.
Short form: We've now got the first documented self-defense case"

By the way, wonder how many Minnesotans got shot in the last year? Wonder how many of those were unsolved? Wonder how many culprits in the solved cases cried "self defense!" when they got nabbed?

[Me Me Meme]

15. Terrific!

And not a shot fired - just the way it should be.

Think Bozo would have let go without the heater? I wouldn't want to lay money on it. People who walk up to cars and accost the driver generally need something significant to make them back down - a .45 does nicely for that. :D

Valley View Road? Where? I work right off of 169 at the Valley View exit. That's mighty close to home...

Glad no one was hurt and it ended well.

Edited to add: If you've got a link to the story - post it please? Thanks!

[demsrule4life]

17. And of course it is ok for Bozo

to assault someone. Problem with some Bozo's riding bikes they forget that they are suppose to follow the same rules of the road as the Franks driving cars. If I had to guess like some people calling people a punk for carrying a gun, is Bozo was not following the rules of the road and Frank was doing his best not to run the idiot over.

[iverglas]

20. oh my

If I had to guess like some people calling people a punk for carrying a gun, is Bozo was not following the rules of the road and Frank was doing his best not to run the idiot over.

You not only believe Frank, you're eager to make stuff up that he apparently never said, to help his case! What a fraternity you folks seem to have. No one, least of all Frank, seems to have made any suggestion that Bozo was not following the rules of the road.

*I* didn't call him a punk for carrying a gun, I called him a punk because of his behaviour. I'd say that he was carrying a gun because he was a punk, not vice versa.

You, on the other hand, will apparently jump through any hoop necessary to snatch any "fact" from thin air that you can find ... *because* he was carrying a gun?

.

[demsrule4life]

21. I dont think the story

gave either one of us enough information to make an informed comment.

[Me Me Meme]

24. Look at it this way...

"No one, least of all Frank, seems to have made any suggestion that Bozo was not following the rules of the road."

How about the rule where you don't throttle motorists at intersections?

The thing everybody's passing over here is that there was a determination made by two people in a much better observational position than anybody here, and there is something to learn from that. The police arrested Bozo, and they not only did not arrest Frank but they gave him back his firearm at the scene.

Much of the discussion thus far concerns whether you find one participant to be more credible than the other. Cops have to make decisions like this a LOT. And if both parties sound like they're spewing bullshit and coverups, they'll just haul 'em both in and let it get sorted out later. Unless they had a relatively high degree of confidence in Frank's tale over Bozo's, they might have taken Frank in too, and for certain if they thought Frank was "hinky" in any way they would NEVER put a gun back in his hand. NEVER NEVER NEVER.

[iverglas]

25. y'know

I meant to remark earlier that you are one of the finest practitioners of sophistry to grace these pages in a long time. My congratulations; you seem to be able to sustain the effort.

No one, least of all Frank, seems to have made any suggestion that Bozo was not following the rules of the road.
How about the rule where you don't throttle motorists at intersections?

Damn, the way you skillfully juxtapose these two things, one might even think they were related ... if one didn't have two brain cells to rub together.

Yes indeed, the rule of the road that Bozo was breaking WHEN FRANK HONKED HIS HORN AT HIM was "don't throttle motorists at intersections". I mean, the only time that any rule of the road was ever in issue was at the time WHEN FRANK HONKED HIS HORN AT HIM, that being, of course, some time BEFORE any throttling allegedly occurred.

Aha. Maybe *this* is the sixth dimension that that other newbie was leading us toward. Frank honked his horn at Bozo BECAUSE BOZO WAS GOING TO THROTTLE HIM in the future. Gotcha.

... Cops have to make decisions like this a LOT. ...

Yeah ... and you'd really think that will all their experience, they'd be a little better at seeing through the manipulations and rationalizations of bullies with narcissistic/psychopathic personality traits. In my experience, they aren't. One factor is that manipulative, rationalizing bullies are often really good at what they do, and often have really really good stories; another is that the traits and behaviours in question aren't exactly strangers to police forces, and a lot of cops just identify a little more with young punks in cars (and, in the US, from what I gather, with guns) than they do with middle-aged folk on bicycles.

It just does all hinge on whether we believe that Frank was the poor innocent victim of an unprovoked attack. And it's just damned plain from the facts that he wasn't.

In any event, did anybody happen to catch where I said that none of my opinions meant that Bozo should not have been charged with assault?

It's just that the whole sorry scene could have been avoided if little master Frank had just decided not to behave like the punk bully he so obviously was, and intentionally scare a bicyclist minding his own business shitless to avert any possibility of having to slow down 1 mph or veer 1 cm. off his own chosen course, that being precisely equal to the course ordained by the gods for the universe.

But no. Obviously Bozo was just itching to pick a fight for no reason with a stranger in a car. The horn honk was just a friendly greeting, and only a bozo would have taken it otherwise.

.

[MrSandman]

26. Where is this place?

"a lot of cops just identify a little more with young punks in cars (and, in the US, from what I gather, with guns) than they do with middle-aged folk on bicycles."


Most of the cops that I have known who were bullies, punks, etc. have not lasted long.
While they did, they did not suffer challenges to their absolute right to the top of the bullying heap.

[Me Me Meme]

27. Ha!

"Damn, the way you skillfully juxtapose these two things, one might even think they were related ... if one didn't have two brain cells to rub together."

Damn, I could take that as an insult if you were important! See, you can say that to someone like me, and you'll just get laughed at. Best not say it to Bozo though. Not unless you're packing. ;)

Sorry, all your assumptions and posturing don't change the outcome. The one all-important fact remains: If Frank even looked like he was still agitated, the cops wouldn't have given him back his gun at the scene. That has nothing to do with right or wrong, that's a safety issue - the cops first priority is to go home in one piece at the end of his shift.

You base your entire position on Frank being a young punk and Bozo being this sweet old man toodling along merrily. It's a fucking joke to assume that, or assume anything really about these two men. WE DON"T KNOW. WE WEREN"T THERE. You can read anything you want into it that makes it fit comfortably into your little fantasy world, it doesn't matter.

I'm perfectly willing to admit they're probably BOTH assholes. But asshole two decided to grab asshole one. By the neck or by the shirt doesn't really matter, we don't allow that here.

I toodle along in cars and on bicycles. I've been both the honker and the honkee. Never once has assault entered the picture. Whatever the situation on the ground was, the cops dealt with it in a way that says you're wrong.