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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 09:21 PM
Original message
VPC -caught in a lie?
http://www.vpc.org/studies/ltk4conc.htm

" Other states do not provide any information at all about the number and types of crimes committed by their concealed carry licensees. Allowing the public full access to this information on concealed carry holders is essential to a fair examination of the concealed carry licensing system."

But Michigan makes theirs available. They didn't know that?
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-77621--,00.html

So what is the VPC's motive for ignoring the facts? Are they just trying to make honest gun owners look bad? Why would anyone believe anything that they say?
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Florida's and Oregon's CCW stats are available:
Reposted from the "Detroit" thread:

- In Florida between 1987 and 1994, 17 out of 204,108 (0.008%) CCW permit holders were convicted of gun crimes.
- In Oregon, 4 out of 14,000 (0.03%) of CCW permit holders were convicted of gun crimes.

Unfortunately, at the VPC's website you only find skewed Texas statistics. Strange.
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Low Drag Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. For the same reason
the make not attempt to report on legal vs illegal guns used in crime.

Hey, a guy gets a gun from the dirt bag they get their crack from and honest gun owners pay for it. They have an anti-liberal agenda, plain and simple.

Remember if a 20th century dictator or 17 century monarch would like it, it's conservative. They'd both like gun control/bans.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. It's a difference of philosophy.
I wouldn't go so far as to call the VPC a bunch of Nazis (I leave juvenile ad hominem attacks to people who are otherwise unable to prove a simple point). They probably do have good intentions, and it is foolish not to acknowledge the fact that there is a serious gun problem in this country.

The difference lies in the solutions to the problem that have been presented. Pro-gun people like me have been shooting all of their lives (including *GASP!* as small children) and understand that strict adherence to safety rules will always prevent accidents. We obey the law, and would never use our guns to break it.

On the other hand, there's a large portion of the country that have never even seen a gun, let alone handled or shot one. These are the people who are the most influenced by baseless anti-gun rhetoric. They are the ones who are easily led to believe that the term "assault weapons" refers to machine guns.

But the simple fact of the matter is that gun technology has undergone very few changes in the last hundred years. What we today call an illegal machine gun used to cost $15 at the hardware store 70 years ago.

It is foolish to blame guns for crime, since the guns themselves haven't changed much while the crime rates have. There are sociological shifts that have resulted in a disregard for the law, and these need to be addressed rather than collecting guns from law-abiding citizens in an effort to appear progressive.
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Something Blue Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Sorry
I should have been more specific. My bad.

The people who listen to the tripe are fools.

The people who spew the tripe know exactly what they're doing and are a bunch of fucking nazis.

Normally I don't like those kind of attacks either. But if I'm a nazi for attending a gun show, then sauce for the goose is....
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I understand your frustration.
When you are called a shitheel, Glocksucker, humhole, right-wing apologist, liar, bastard, thug, sumbitch, ignorant, terrorist enabler, idiot, imbecile, nutcase, rancid, neo-Nazi, asshole, fuckwad and yokel simply for believing in the right to own guns, it is tempting to fire back. But we are the ones who have to present the facts and let the other side resort to this strategy.
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demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. It is a strategy they have been using for 30 years
the idiots haven't figured out yet for the past ten years it has been back firing on them.
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Something Blue Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. Yes!
"it is tempting to fire back"

that is true on so many different levels :)
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. And It's Equally Foolish....
...to totally absolve guns of blame. Guns have to be present in order for them to be used to kill. That's a basic fact that no amount of pro-gun blather can change.
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DavidMS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. You just reminded me...
One of the better gun control quotes:

Marlowe: My, my, my! Such a lot of guns around town and so few brains! You know, you're the second guy I've met today that seems to think a gat in the hand means the world by the tail. - From the The Big Sleep

http://home.earthlink.net/~ajdlro/bigsleep.html

The problem with guns is not in a person's hands, but between their ears.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. How True
And some of the most prominent pro-gunners (such as Ted Nugent) have virtually nothing between their ears.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Gee, blue...and you got such NICE playmates too....
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Your ad hominems are boring and baseless.
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 07:39 AM by OpSomBlood
Maybe I'll do a little browsing today and find out how many Democrats own guns.

EDIT: At first glance, the numbers are coming in just a hair under 40% of Democrats owning guns. And labor union members own guns at a significantly higher rate than non-union members. I'll post links later when I have more time.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Go ahead, op...
"And labor union members own guns at a significantly higher rate than non-union members."
Wonder if those are the labor unions that ended up on the NRA enemy lists? And the union members I know are more concerned with jobs and other issues than on whether neurotics can skulk to chuch with popguns in their pockets...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. No, obviously...
But hey, anybody who thinks the American Daily or the Stentorian is a news source is desperate to pretend so....
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. my breath is bated

"VPC -caught in a lie?"

Were you planning to offer an answer?

Or even the evidentiary basis for your question?

Or, to get really basic, some idea of what you're talking about?

I doubt that even a worldnetdaily editor would have let that headline slip by.

.
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demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. When are you going to contest
statements made by some that the NRA lie? You are a fair minded person aren't you?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Gee, dems...I'm going to wait until
we see even a single pro-Democrat post you've made....
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demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Unlike some
I have never bashed Dems for what state they live in.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Unlike some others...
I don't have to distort what other people say to have any sort of argument at all...

But hey, I'm still trying to wonder who would possibly pretend Roy Moore's Alabama isn't a right wing shithole. I can only assume it's somebody who has nothing at all pro-Democrat to say.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. quote please

When are you going to contest
statements made by some that the NRA lie?


Find me a statement to that effect that you regard as false, and offer me some prima facie evidence of its falsity. I won't ask you to prove the negative -- that the NRA doesn't lie; just offer me an instance in which it was, in your opinion, falsely accused of lying, and some basis for your claim of falsity.

.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Too TOO funny, isn't it....
It isn't enough for you to make your case...in order to please dems ,you have to make the case that he cannot make (for the excellent reason that the NRA lie like rugs.)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. In other words...
A) You can't find an instance in which the NRA was telling the truth

or B) You know the NRA lies...and got busted trying to pretend otherwise.

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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. That Would Be Like Contesting the Sunrise
A few undeniable facts:

1 - The sun rises in the East and sets in the West.

2 - Water flows downhill.

3 - The NRA lies.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. we hold these truths to be self-evident?

1 - The sun rises in the East and sets in the West.
2 - Water flows downhill.
3 - The NRA lies.


Now *those* I'll buy as Natural Law.

;)

.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. The point is that the VPC claims ignorance....
...on statistics that prove their arguments false. They say that information on crimes committed by CCW holders is unavailable, when in fact anybody with internet access can find them in a matter of minutes from official state websites.

It is intellectually dishonest to say facts don't exist when in fact they do.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. quote please

The point is that the VPC claims ignorance....
...on statistics that prove their arguments false. They say that information on crimes committed by CCW holders is unavailable


In their own words, please.

.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. I think roe is trying to pretend
that because Michigan makes its statistics available although other states DON'T (thanks to the corrupt gun lobby and the GOP), that somehow VPC could track those stats if they wanted to.

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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. He Also Believes The VPC Can Travel Through Time...
...and reference reports that were released AFTER their report.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. LOL!
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. The law was already written...
Michigan Law 28.425e state that the information must be reported. This law went into effect 7/1/01. A credible source would have known this whether the first year's report was ready.

http://www.michiganlegislature.org/documents/publications/firearms.pdf
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
24. I Couldn't Get The Links On the MSP Page to Work
Guess it's an issue with the firewall here at work.

But since the links on the Michigan Spate Police site identify the reports as 2001-2002 and 2002-2003, I think it's safe to assume that the reports were prepared in 2003 and 2004, respectively. And when you consider that the VPC article is copyrighted in 2002, there IS a possibility that the Michigan reports were released AFTER the VPC Report was prepared, right????
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
30. Please keep on track in this discussion
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 01:11 PM by lunabush
its an interesting one, I'd like to see it continue. Our discussion pool is somewhat lessened, but I think reasoned discussion can still occur.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
33. The VPC caught being honest:
Edited on Wed Apr-28-04 11:29 AM by OpSomBlood
"<Assault weapons'> menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully-automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons --anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun-- can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons."

http://www.quoteworld.org/author.php?thetext=Josh+Sugarmann

So, in essence, the VPC acknowledges that public confusion with regard to "assault weapons" is a big advantage. Don't honest activists generally want the public to make well-informed decisions about public policy?

Not if they have something to hide. Much like statistics showing that CCW decreases violent crime.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. quotations, sources, contexts ...
That was shore enlightening -- a quotation with a link offered as the source ... to a site which offers no source for its quotation. Cute.


So, in essence, the VPC acknowledges that public confusion with regard to "assault weapons" is a big advantage. Don't honest activists generally want the public to make well-informed decisions about public policy?

Well now. Let's just look at where the quotation in question actually did come from.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/awaconc.htm

That's the conclusion portion of a study by the VPC called "Assault Weapons and Accesories <sic> in America". (I'll assume for the sake of argument that Josh Sugarmann actually wrote it. I sure wish they'd use a spellchecker, though.) It starts here:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/awaintro.htm

and it contains the following sections:

Introduction
Assault Weapons Violence
Drug Trafickers <sic>, Paramilitary Groups... And Just Plain Folk
Assault Weapons Marketing
Assault Weapon Look-Alikes: Airguns and Toy Guns
Publications
Accessories
Paramilitary Training Camps and Combat Schools
The Assault Weapons Debate
Conclusion
Appendix I
Appendix II

Here's the bit of the conclusion that the quotation in question (emphasis added) came from:

Assault weapons are increasingly being perceived by legislators, police organizations, handgun restriction advocates, and the press as a public health threat. As these weapons come to be associated with drug traffickers, paramilitary extremists, and survivalists, their television and movie glamour is losing its lustre to a violent reality.

Because of this fact, assault weapons are quickly becoming the leading topic of America's gun control debate and will most likely remain the leading gun control issue for the near future. Such a shift will not only damage America's gun lobby, but strengthen the handgun restriction lobby for the following reasons:

It will be a new topic in what has become to the press and public an "old" debate.

- Although handguns claim more than 20,000 lives a year, the issue of handgun restriction consistently remains a non-issue with the vast majority of legislators, the press, and public. The reasons for this vary: the power of the gun lobby; the tendency of both sides of the issue to resort to sloganeering and pre-packaged arguments when discussing the issue; the fact that until an individual is affected by handgun violence he or she is unlikely to work for handgun restrictions; the view that handgun violence is an "unsolvable" problem; the inability of the handgun restriction movement to organize itself into an effective electoral threat; and the fact that until someone famous is shot, or something truly horrible happens, handgun restriction is simply not viewed as a priority. Assault weapons — just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms — are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons — anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun — can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons.

Efforts to stop restrictions on assault weapons will only further alienate the police from the gun lobby.

- Until recently, police organizations viewed the gun lobby in general, and the NRA in particular, as a reliable friend. This stemmed in part from the role the NRA played in training officers and its reputation regarding gun safety and hunter training. Yet, throughout the 1980s, the NRA has found itself increasingly on the opposite side of police on the gun control issue. Its opposition to legislation banning armor-piercing ammunition, plastic handguns, and machine guns, and its drafting of and support for the McClure/Volkmer handgun decontrol bill, burned many of the bridges the NRA had built throughout the past hundred years. As the result of this, the Law Enforcement Steering Committee was formed. The Committee now favors such restriction measures as waiting periods with background check for handgun purchase and a ban on machine guns and plastic firearms. If police continue to call for assault weapons restrictions, and the NRA continues to fight such measures, the result can only be a further tarnishing of the NRA's image in the eyes of the public, the police, and NRA members. The organization will no longer be viewed as the defender of the sportsman, but as the defender of the drug dealer.

Efforts to restrict assault weapons are more likely to succeed than those to restrict handguns.

Although the majority of Americans favor stricter handgun controls, and a consistent 40 percent of Americans favor banning the private sale and possession of handguns,<129> many Americans do believe that handguns are effective weapons for home self-defense and the majority of Americans mistakenly believe that the Second Amendment of the Constitution guarantees the individual right to keep and bear arms.<130> Yet, many who support the individual's right to own a handgun have second thoughts when the issue comes down to assault weapons. Assault weapons are often viewed the same way as machine guns and "plastic" firearms — a weapon that poses such a grave risk that it's worth compromising a perceived constitutional right. ...

Now ... what are we seeing here?

Are we seeing someone with "something to hide"?

Or are we seeing a FACTUAL assessment of a situation?

Are we seeing someone who wants to ban assault weapons BECAUSE OF their "menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully-automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons"?

Or are we seeing someone who has REASONS for supporting the ban on assault weapons, REASONS which have been set out in considerable detail in the study, in the conclusion of which that statement was made, REASONS which have nothing to do with the "menacing looks" of assault weapons, or the public's "confusion" with respect thereto?

Is there evidence that Sugarmann, or the VPC, has ever "concealed" its reasons for advocating the assault weapons ban, or the basis on which it advocates the ban? Evidence that it has attempted to create or exacerbate the public confusion in question? Not that I know of.

So the statement in question is no more nor less than a statement of fact. Is the fact in question "a big advantage" to advocates of the ban? Perhaps. And in an assessment of the likelihood of success of the assault weapons ban campaign, which is the context in which it appeared, it would be a relevant fact.

Are those advocates responsible for that advantage? S/he who says so had better do something to substantiate the allegation.

.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Paraphrased:
"Most people don't know the difference between 'assault weapons' and machine guns, and this confusion will help our cause."

That's the quote in a nutshell. No activist should ever celebrate the public's confusion and ignorance on an issue, they should always strive to make sure that people have all of the facts needed to develop their own informed opinion.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. "paraphrased"

celebrate the public's confusion


... Well ... I'm sure that there are *some* who would call that a paraphrase.

For whatever reasons they might have, none of which would be that it actually is a paraphrase ...

.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. "Celebrate" wasn't part of my paraphrase.
But thanks for playing!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. No shit
"Celebrate" wasn't part of my paraphrase.

That's exactly right, isn't it just?

What it was part of was your misrepresentation (I cast no aspersions! misrepresentations can of course be of innocent provenance) of the statement of fact that you paraphrased relatively accurately as:

"Most people don't know the difference between 'assault weapons' and machine guns, and this confusion will help our cause."

It undoubtedly helps the Democrats' cause that some people think Bush is a damned Yankee passing himself off as a good southern boy. Is a Democrat who states that fact -- that some people dislike Bush for bizarre reasons of their own and are likely to vote Democrat as a result -- "celebrating" it?

It might look as if I'm asking a question, but I'm really quite aware I'm pissing in the wind.

.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. No, not pissing in the wind.
I actually do want to know what the pro-gun control side thinks of this quote, and your own interpretation is duly noted.

However, it disturbs me that this VPC report acknowledges that public ignorance on the issue will help their cause. They express no desire to educate the public, because doing so would reveal details of the AWB that they don't want the average person to know about.

Believe it or not, I am in favor of gun laws that make it more difficult for criminals to get guns. I just don't see how the AWB does that.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. oh really
I actually do want to know what the pro-gun control side thinks of this quote

I guess I'll just repeat that the "quote" was taken entirely out of context and that it would be moronic for anyone at all to have or express an opinion on it without knowing what its context was.

If you were actually interested in, shall we say, the MEANING of the "quote", I would have expected you to read the materials at the site to which I referred you. Like maybe this:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/awadebat.htm

While the NRA struggles to turn the assault weapons debate into a semi-auto debate for public relations purposes, legislators and members of the press have been making it into one inadvertently. Neither of America's national handgun restriction organizations has come out in favor of restricting or banning all semi-autos, and have only recently begun dealing with long guns (there is no national organization calling for restrictions on all guns). Yet in discussions of assault firearms, those urging restrictions on these weapons have used the terms assault, paramilitary, and semi-automatic weapon interchangeably. This misusage apparently stems from an unfamiliarity with weapons terminology and a lack of understanding of the wide range of weapons covered by the term semi-automatic. As the result of this lack of knowledge, and the difficulties in defining assault weapons in legal terms, laws have been proposed on the state level that would place waiting periods on all semi-auto weapons. In August 1988, The New York Times ran two editorials in favor of such a law on the federal level, as well as urging a ban on the sale of assault weapons.

According to John Hosford, executive director of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA), a 500,000 member pro-gun organization located in Bellevue, Washington, the issue of paramilitary weapons will be addressed at the organization's board meeting in September 1988.

Oh, well, for crissakes. Let's just end our little deconstruction of this "quote" right here, shall we?

IT WAS WRITTEN IN 1988.

http://www.vpc.org/studyndx.htm

Assault Weapons and Accessories in America

1988
42 pages
Cost: $6.00

So:

However, it disturbs me that this VPC report acknowledges that public ignorance on the issue will help their cause.

... I think you can stop being disturbed now maybe.

They express no desire to educate the public, because doing so would reveal details of the AWB that they don't want the average person to know about.

And despite my having provided you with links to the study from which the quotation was taken, from which you could have determined both that IT PREDATES THE BLOODY ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN BY SEVERAL YEARS and thus determined that YOUR STATEMENT IS A NONSENSE (how could anyone conceal details of something that DID NOT EXIST???) ... but even apart from that, could have determined that your "interpretation" of what was said was plainly a misrepresentation of it ... you just keep on saying it.

Well done, old chap. And hey, congratulations to whoever it is who operates the disingenuous little site you took the quotation from in the first place. S/he sure can fool some of the people some of the time.

.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. I tried to be civil.
You're in the Benchley bin, too. Congrats.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. strange dictionary
I tried to be civil.

Yeah. Pasting an unsourced quote and representing it as being and meaning something it neither was nor meant, and making unsubstantiated (and, as demonstrated, ultimately false) allegations of malicious motivation against the person who said what was quoted ... and tarring those who support the policy positions of the speaker with the same unfounded and false allegation of malicious motivation ... that's real civil.

The "Benchley bin" sure beats engaging in ACTUAL civil discourse, wherein people speak candidly and straightforwardly, and respond to rebuttals of their allegations and to questions put to them.

By someone's rules of debate, anyhow.

.
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