A Challenge To The Pro-Gunners On This Board

[CO Liberal]

We're always hearing pro-gunners talking about all the "defensive" uses of guns that take place each year, yet I never find examples of them during my daily Google searches for "Guns in the News" items.

I hereby challenge all pro-gunners to find CURRENT stories about defensive gun uses - thwarted robberies, rapes stopped, etc.

Again, the stories have to be CURRENT - recent incidents that were posted tot he Internet in the past 24 hours. If any older stories are posted, I'll ask the moderators to delete them.

Wayne
(CO Liberal)

[MrBenchley]

1. Remember

Last time this was tried, within 24 hours the stories had sunk from "Joe Homeowner nobly defending himself from predators" to "Joe Riffraff defending himself from cops come to arrest him."

[OpSomBlood]

2. Crimes are always reported. Thwarted crimes rarely are.

So you've got us at a disadvantage from the get-go.

[CO Liberal]

6. But If They're So Commonplace.....

...it stands to reason that a few wqould be reported.

Perhaps they're just not as common as some people believe they are...

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

11. Reverend Moon owns a gun factory and makes up news

and even HE has a shortage of such stories...

[OpSomBlood]

21. Therefore all pro-gun people are insane right wingers with a god complex.

It's all so clear to me now.

[CO Liberal]

29. I Guess That "Logic" Makes Sense.....

...to anyone who thinks that Diane Feinstein, Sarah Brady, or Rosie O'Donnell speaks for everyone who favors gun control.

:shrug:

We all have brains and think for ourselves. As opposed to those out there who let the Nuts Ruining America tell them what to think.

[OpSomBlood]

30. The NRA doesn't tell me a damn thing.

And until people on the anti-gun side start disavowing the nonsense spewing forth from Feinstein, Brady and O'Donnell on a daily basis, we'll continue to assume that they speak for you.

Because God knows that the pro-gun side here at DU has disowned Ted Nugent and Grover Norquist.

[CO Liberal]

31. Not Everyone

I still see people talking about what a great guitar player and griller Nugent is.

If you're gonna disavow an asshole, you have to disavow EVERYTHING about him. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke out of your ass.

[OpSomBlood]

33. Your problem is your failure to see gray.

If you're gonna disavow an asshole, you have to disavow EVERYTHING about him.

So what you're saying is that if I disagree with Ted Nugent's backwards political opinions, I have to hate his music and his recipes, too?

That's a wonderful way to look at the world. It reeks of the closed-mindedness Democrats accuse Republicans of so often.

[CO Liberal]

37. A Scumbag Is A Scumbag

"Logic" like that means we should look favorably on Adolf Hitler because he was nice to his dogs...

[OpSomBlood]

42. If Hitler had released "Stranglehold" or "Cat Scratch Fever"...

...I'd still like those songs in spite of the fact that he was a genocidal maniac.

Way to inject Hitler into the conversation, by the way.

[slackmaster]

43. I think I posted my Goering quote first

Neener, neener!

:argh:

[CO Liberal]

44. I Would Consider Nugent an Asshole....

...even if he were anti-gun.

He's just an asshole, through and through.

And BTW, I think "Stranglehold" and "Cat Scratch Fever" both suck big-time.

[skippythwndrdog]

49. No accounting for taste. n/t

[slackmaster]

34. How about just disavowing a person's ass-holiness?

Sometimes assholes speak the truth. Here's a quote from a much worse asshole than Ted Nugent, and I'll be damned if he wasn't right on the money:

"Naturally the common people don't want war. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. All you have to do is to tell them that they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

- Hermann Goering

Quite an astute observation, eh? Goering was one of the biggest assholes who ever lived, but we ignore his analysis at our own peril.

On edit: Egad, I hope I haven't just run afoul of Godwin's Law by comparing George W. Bush to the Nazis.

Naw.

[CO Liberal]

38. Why Are People Coming To Ted Nugent's Defense????

:shrug:

He's an asshole, a scumbag, and a child molester. With absolutely NO redeeming values.

[MrBenchley]

39. As I often ask...

where are all these "pro gun democrats" we keep being told are out there calling for his removal from the NRA board? You can go from gun nut forum to gun nut forum and you won't find the slightest murmur of complaint about scummy Ted.

[slackmaster]

41. WHO is coming to Ted Nugent's defense?

Not I. You have the power of Search, CO. Prove me wrong if you can.

I may have given the man lukewarm praise on his musical talent once or twice, but I agree completely with you that he is an asshole. However, we part company in that I disavow YOUR package deal rejection of everything a person (not specifically Ted Nugent) might say on the basis of him or her being an asshole. You engage in a form of guilt by association that I find inappropriate, yet I do not reject YOU as a person. In fact I kind of like you.

I respond to people based on A) The content of what they say and B) How they treat others. I can think of one individual here to whom I have stopped responding because the content of that person's posts fails my tests of logic and because the person treats others badly. However, I am not prepared to say the person is all bad. In fact I found an essay the person wrote and posted somewhere other than DU that I find myself in complete agreement with. OpSomBlood knows who and what I'm talking about.

Just because a person is an asshole in some respects doesn't mean everything he or she says or does is necessarily tainted, or that everyone who associates with that person directly or indirectly is also wrong.

[CO Liberal]

46. As I Said in Post 37...

"Logic" like that means we should look favorably on Adolf Hitler because he was nice to his dogs...

[slackmaster]

48. No, but I think I can clarify if you are willing to listen for a moment

I can look favorably on Hitler's treatment of his dogs because he was nice to his dogs.

The fact that he was a scumbag in just about every other respect does not diminish his good behavior toward his dogs, for what it's worth.

[CO Liberal]

54. It Still Makes Him A Scumbag

There are somepeople on this board willing to overlook all the negatives about ted Nugent because of his guitar playing. I can't. Because I think even his guitar playing sucks.

[slackmaster]

56. Uh, you still haven't named one person who is willing...

...to overlook all the negatives about ted Nugent because of his guitar playing. (underlining added for emphasis)

Maybe I missed them. If you have a moment I'd appreciate you pointing them out. AFAIK everyone here agrees the guy isn't exactly a good role model for The Children.

[CO Liberal]

58. I Don't Have the Time To Search The Threads

Let's face it - one of the most vocal spokesmen four your side is a racist asshole scumbag child molester.

(I almost forgot the racist part - he made some racist remarks on a Denver radio station a while back, and a concert of his was cancelled as a result.)

[slackmaster]

61. There you go again with the guilt by association

Ted Nugent isn't MY spokesperson for anything. Ted Nugent isn't on my "side".

I am my ONLY spokesperson. Nobody else speaks on MY behalf.

My views are MINE and nobody else's.

If someone over whom I have NO CONTROL WHATSOEVER who happens to be a flaming asshole has a similar viewpoint to MINE on a thing or three that doesn't diminish MY viewpoint or lower MY esteem in any way.

I don't give a flying fuck who else happens to agree with ME on one issue or another. Ted Nugent might like the same kind of beer as I do. He might enjoy spumoni ice cream or sleeping in a hammock under the stars. If I found out that was the case I wouldn't switch to a different brand of brew or start eating chocolate mint chip or sleep in a tent just because HE happened to share a viewpoint with ME.

Let Ted Nugent be a vile racist pedophile. It really doesn't bother me. If I cared I'd probably become a voting member of the NRA just to oppose him.

[OpSomBlood]

64. I sometimes wear red shirts.

It's called a "coincidence." It doesn't mean that I'm emulating Tiger Woods.

I think that's going to be my response to the guilt by association attacks from now on.

[skippythwndrdog]

47. Well said!

I have two words for thought on that topic: Clinton and NAFTA.

Those of my generation appreciate the fact that, despite everything else, Nixon did get us out of Viet Nam.

My point: good people can do bad things. Conversely, bad people can do good things.

[skippythwndrdog]

45. Child molester?

I'm not plugging for Nugent in any way, but show me a conviction for that. To the best of my knowledge it's a felony. If that's the case, how in the hell is he toting a shotgun on "Surviving Nugent"? We all know that convicted felons can't have firearms.

My point here is not Nugent or his psitions. My concern is how the assumption of guilt sits with a liberal viewpoint of justice - you know, innocent until proven guilty, jury of his peers - that sort of thing.

[slackmaster]

50. Someone claimed Courtney Love said he molested her at age 12

Now THERE'S a really fine credible source.

:eyes:

[CO Liberal]

51. A Lot of Child Molesters Never Get Convicted

Either because they never got caught, or their victims (or their families) didn't press charges. Like my wife's uncle (an elder in the Baptist church, BTW) who molester her and all her female cousins. That doesn't mean the molestation naver took place.

It would be hard to find a jury of Ted Nugent's peers - I don't think there are twelve other asshole-scumbag-child molest3ers out there like him.

[skippythwndrdog]

52. NIce liberal point of view.

What part of the Constitution do you want to unilaterally scrap next? RKBA is gone in your book. Now the right to a trial is gone (you know, that pesky little innocent until proven guilty thing).

Personal knowledge of a family member, friend, or associate is one thing (your wife's uncle in this case). Beyond that relatively small circle the only thing we have to work on is hearsay. Hearsay does not prove guilt.

That's it! We'll scour all sources available. If anyone says that someone else did something illegal, we'll just lock his ass up and throw away the key. I don't know why those guys sweated so long and hard over that feeble little document in Philadelphia all those years ago. We've got all we need right here! If I personally don't like something - it's banned. If I think you're guilty, your ass in in jail.

I'll be sending your dinner over to you - and you'd better finish those damn peas. I don't care what you like or want. I know what's best and you'll abide by it.

as an aside, a "lot" is either real estate or a manufacturing run of product. I believe that you meant to say "A Great many of Child Molesters Never Get Convicted

[CO Liberal]

53. I Stand By My Point of View

Ted Nugent is an asshole-scumbag-child molester. Period. And nothing will ever change my very low opinion of him, except to make it even lower.

[Liberal Classic]

55. I didn't know that

Nugent had been accused of child abuse. Goodness gracious, how did he get off?

[skippythwndrdog]

40. That's throwing the baby out with the bath water.

If you're gonna disavow an asshole, you have to disavow EVERYTHING about him. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke out of your ass.

Remember the joke about Pierre? "I build all these great things, but just one little..."

[OpSomBlood]

3. Deadly robbery attempt in Groton

Groton -- Police are investigating a robbery at a Dairy Queen on Fort Hill Road that turned deadly after the store owner surprised the robber with a gun.

http://www.wfsb.com/Global/story.asp?S=1975216&nav=1VGmOGWq

[CO Liberal]

10. OK - There's One

I reposted this story in the GITN thread.

[H2O Man]

4. Gun owners do not

feel the need to score with debater's points, or to look for an authority figure to censor other people's opinions. As a gun owner, I am content to read the United States Constitution, rather than google an opinion or news story of lesser significance.

[Wickerman]

24. Hello?

I guess you don't get my alerts! RKBAers outnumber gun control folks 3 to 1 and easily post 4-1 alerts - and no - they are on everyone - not just on one punching bag!

"or to look for an authority figure to censor other people's opinions"

ROTFLMAO

[CO Liberal]

32. You May Think Your Position is Absolute, H2O Man

However, many disagree with you - myself included.

[PopeyeII]

5. Challenge accepted with the following revisions.

Crimes to be posted that could have been prevented if the victim did have a gun and the perpetrator did not use a gun.

[CO Liberal]

7. Your Revisions are Pure Conjecture, IMHO

We're interested in actual stories, not hypotheticals.

[OpSomBlood]

8. "Robber gets scared and runs away" doesn't sell newspapers.

And you know it.

[CO Liberal]

9. I Don't Buy a Paper Based On Its News Stories

And I don't believe that many other people do nowadays. That was the case back in the heyday of newspapers, when they would print "Extras" containing the latest information about a breaking story. That has been reduces to nothing more than an old movie cliche ("Extra, Extra - Read All About It!!!).

[PopeyeII]

14. More people killed by tractors in my town than guns (10 years)

Tractors 5, guns 0; in fact there is only one known house on my road that does not have a firearm in it. Zero accidents, zero gun murders. Zero accidents includes accidents in the home, range, and hunting. Auto accidents yes, gun accidents no.


Statistical proof positive that we need more tractor control and that John Deere makes unsafe nussiance products.


Meanwhile if I go into the city the gangbangers keep a plugging away, home invasions etc. Yes, less guns means less accidental shootings of gang bangers and home invaders.

Why is it your message is not getting to the people that need it?

[CO Liberal]

16. Could It Be....

...that some people aren't listening??

[PopeyeII]

25. You could be right.

If we had heard the tractors go over then those farmers might not have died.

[minavasht]

12. How many stories about drivers who drove home without

hitting something can be found in the news?
In the 2 cases I know of (none of them recent, though) guns were brandished, not fired. None of them was reported.
One was a single guy against 4 tugs in a dark park, second was a home invasion - a guy woke up to some noise, found somebody in his living room going trough the cabinets - just the sight of the 44 revolver made the bad guy to run.

[PopeyeII]

13. The farm market in my town didn't get held up again.

20 years and a 16 gauge Browning Sweet Sixteen in plain sight behind the counter.

Kind of boring I guess, the news not worth reading about.

[Wcross]

15. I am not going to put a lot of effort into this...

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/opsd/default.asp

Go to this page and the defensive gun use stories are on the right.

[slackmaster]

18. They aren't "current" according to CO's definition, but...

...the fact that they happen at all is enough reason for me to retain the right of people to keep and use guns for their own defense.

On two occasions over the last 10 years I have armed myself with a gun and a flashlight while investigating things that went bump in the night outside of my house. In one case a neighbor had told me she saw a man lurking by the side of my house. I'm pretty sure it was one of my cats peering at her over the fence. The other time it turned out to be a large dog that was running loose and tearing up my vegetable garden looking for something smelly to roll in.

I didn't have to fire or brandish the weapon either time, but having it handy made the difference between me taking an active role in verifying the safety of my surroundings vs. calling the police and waiting 45 minutes for them to possibly show up and find no problem. That's an hour and a half of sleep I would have missed otherwise.

[Wcross]

28. Some are current- check the dates.

First of all, why demand defensive gun use stories on a Monday? Is this a fair test? Why not compare a whole week? Also, unless someone is killed or seriously injured you will be hard pressed to find a story on it.

[Liberal Classic]

17. The news is often times sensationalistic

As others have noted, their existance to sell papers and advertising, not give accurate staticstics on the successful occurances of self defense. Tragedy on the other hand, sells. I don't think there's going to be much argument on that. For this debate I would rather rely on governmental statistics, even as incomplete as they are.

Just to play along, here's one from less than 24 hours ago:

http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_fullstory.asp?id=20296

The problem is that if the police aren't involved, it is unlikely to make the news. To me, this is kind of like those "guns not in the news" threads. It's hard to prove a negative.

I can say from personal anecdote that sometimes just unconcealing is sufficient to discourage a would-be mugger. It has happened to me. Also my family was the victim of a home invasion on Thanksgiving of last year. The police got there quickly and no one was shot, but ask anyone of my family about the uses of self defense and you'll get an earful.

This is, of course, unscientific. However, so is counting the number of news articles. Google news is a search engine, but it does not represent an accurate or scientific picture of the number of crimes that occur.

[slackmaster]

19. Someone will probably whine that this one doesn't count

Because the shooter was a "security guard".

:eyes:

[OpSomBlood]

23. Do police who use their guns in self-defense count?

Probably not, because in the anti-gun untopia only the police and the military have guns.

[slackmaster]

26. You've got that right

I used to participate in another forum where one individual "disqualified" any DGU where someone protected himself or herself against an attacker who was also armed with the gun, because if there were no guns the attack would not have happened.

:freak:

[Liberal Classic]

27. I don't know but

I do know the government has a hard time itself collecting accurate statistics on rape due to the highly personal nature of the crime. Rape and child abuse are still considerably under-reported crimes.

[OpSomBlood]

20. While we're at it, lets start a "car accidents avoided in the news" thread

Tampa, FL

Today John Smith swerved and barely missed another driver who cut him off on I-4 today. Film at 11.

[slackmaster]

22. How about Defensive Fire Extinguisher Uses?

I'm sure every one of those gets printed in a newspaper or posted on a Web site.

[JayS]

35. We have stories of this nature in our local paper fairly often...

...but usually only if they demonstrate a firearm used as a last resort and go into quite some detail about the situation. Anything else is generally frowned upon. If there is something in the story that will really sell advertising it will be front and center in all media though, but this is rare.

[skippythwndrdog]

36. Nice try.

Let me get this straight. You want us to find news about non-news events?

Flash!

Mrs. O'Leary's Cow Did Not Kick the Lantern

<snip> During milking last evening, Mrs. O'Leary's cow, Mabel, of this city did not kick the lantern used by Mrs. O'Leary to illuminate her endeavors. By the act of not kicking the lantern, Mrs' O'Leary's cow saved Chicago form the worst fire in it's history.

Had Mrs. O'Leary's cow indeed kicked the lantern, the only structure remaining in downtown Chicago at this writing would be the stone water tower.

[CO Liberal]

57. But It WOULD Be a News Event

Since you rarely hear about defensive gun uses, they must be relatively rare. Hence, newsworthy.

Perhaps that's why only ONE pro-gunner (OpSomBlood) rose to the challenge and posted a defensive gun-use story.....

[JayS]

62. It is common but not newsworthy. It would also be incredibly...

...irresponsible to run such stories routinely. I've posted some here before, but not in the last twenty four hours, because they were textbook illustrations of when the use of force is both legally and morally allowed. There is at most one story a week in the paper here that meet those qualifications and is interesting enough for it to go to print.

There are some sites that collect these sorts of stories everyday but I cannot see why anyone would want to read them. There is no joy to be found in having to shoot someone. If someone finds joy in this, it is best to stay far away from them.


From a prior post:
We have stories of this nature in our local paper fairly often but usually only if they demonstrate a firearm used as a last resort and go into quite some detail about the situation. Anything else is generally frowned upon. If there is something in the story that will really sell advertising it will be front and center in all media though, but this is rare.

[CO Liberal]

59. I Guess It's Time to Lock This Thread

I made the challenge first thing this morning, and only one person rose to it. Everyone else just gave the same old lame excuses why they can't post stories about defensive gun stories.

Thanks for playing, folks. In less than seven hours, you've made my point.

Wayne
(CO Liberal)

[FeebMaster]

60. lol (nt)

[slackmaster]

63. FWIW I looked in my local newspaper

No documented DGUs FWIW, which isn't much because as has already been said many times such events are neither newsworthy nor likely to be reported.

CO, you have done something you often rightly accuse others of doing here: Indulged in an apples-to-oranges comparision. I'm not persuaded to change my view one iota. But it has been fun. At least we have been able to calmly discuss Hermann Goering's observations about human behavior and Ted Nugent's guitar playing and Adolf Hitler's kind treatment of his dogs without having anybody get tombstoned.

:evilgrin:

[Wickerman]

65. Good thing the topic of Jarts never came up

locking