Holy fuck -- A Lurker's First Day In the Dungeon

[neverborn]

So I was at our local political chat group and guns came up. I'm quite liberal (Was a Dean supporter from the beginning), but with some Libertarian leanings on some issues. Guns are one of them. I was one of two who supported conceal-carry laws, ending the AWB, etc. So I decided to see what the "Gungeon" was -- and if it measured up to the I/P flame wars.

It's so much different here than elsewhere on DU, even the I/P forum.

It seems if you are pro-RKBA... you must be a Republican. People are calling out the "pro-gun Democrats" as being just Republicans in disguise.

I don't get it.

I'm very socially liberal... I'm somewhat fiscally conservative.... and I have Libertarian leanings on some issues(Guns being one of them)...

I protested the Iraq war twice in my town. I marched on CAT for selling bulldozers to Israel. I worked for Howard Dean. I'm volunteering for Kerry and Obama.

I think citizens have a right to keep and bear arms.

Am I a Republican?

[mhr]

1. No, When The Social Revolution Comes, I Plan To Be Fully Armed

I have no intention of letting any Freeper take me out!

[neverborn]

2. I am not yet old enough to own a gun.

However, when I am out of college(Where even if 21, firearms are prohibited in the dormitories), I very well may purchase a firearm. Does this make me a Republican? I just don't get it.

[iverglas]

21. gentle reader ...

I very well may purchase a firearm. Does this make me a Republican?

Whyever do you ask?

I just don't get it.

Unsurprisingly, Ms. Manners might say.

People who compose absurdities and then claim not to "get" them would be what Miss Manners doesn't get.

Since you are pursuing a post-secondary education, may one assume that you have a thirst for knowledge and understanding? Perhaps even self-knowledge and self-understanding?

Might one then recommend, based on that assumption, that you ponder the following real live question:

What are my reasons for purchasing a firearm?

This may assist you in determining whether or not you are a Republican. Others may be of assistance in determining whether, even if one is not a Republican, one is complicit, or a stooge, in the pursuit of knavish Republican goals.

Of course, there are many other, and perhaps better, indicators of being Republican that you might wish to ask yourself about at the same time.

Interestingly, placing concerns about firearms ownership at the top of the list of things one considers, when attempting to ascertain one's proper political affiliation, might be regarded as one such indicator.

Ms. Manners hopes that she has been of assistance to the gentle reader in his/her quest.


(typos fixed)

[MrBenchley]

22. The Littlest Gunslinger...

Ain't that cute?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[el_gato]

73. Name calling

ain't that cute?

[MrBenchley]

11. Always impressive to see how many "patriots"

are gleefully looking forward to plugging their fellow citizens.

Of course, they couldn't take any less drastic steps...like going to any gun nut forum to argue a liberal point of view.

[mhr]

13. When You Have Been Out Of Work At The Hands Of Republican

Policies for as long as some have, including myself, then you just might understand.

What's the old saying, don't judge a person until you have walked a mile in their shoes.

I truly believe that if the Republicans are allowed to continue we are heading for a social civil war.

They have become a cancer on our society and will need to be stopped one way or another. Since they don't appear to believe in reason, logic, or compromise anymore, that leaves the dull thud of lead as a persuasive tool.

[MrBenchley]

14. So you're going to shoot prospective employers

until one surrenders?

"the dull thud of lead "
Yippeee! Bang!! Yippeee! Bang!!

[mhr]

15. When Desperate People Have Nothing Left To Lose

Those desperate people will band together to seek redress of their grievances.

If in that process, there is no give on the part of the haves, the have nots will take whatever measures are necessary.

Some like myself have been wiped out under the Bush administration. We are no longer part of the American dream. We no longer count economically, just look at the labor utilization rates and the Bush administration's support of outsourcing.

I know exactly who and what causes my economic pain, Republicans.

[MrBenchley]

16. Gee, so rather than argue the liberal point of view

on a gun nut forum, you're just going to start blasting away.

Yeah, THAT will help.

[el_gato]

26. liberal comes from liberty, the liberal thing to do is support freedom

There is nothing liberal about praying at the alter of a fascist police state.

[MrBenchley]

27. Gee, gato...

so what's your excuse for not going over to the gun forums to fight those fascists you're always pissing and moaning about?

Or is fascism all right with you as long as you have a popgun to paly with?

[el_gato]

127. What's your excuse for supporting every effort to take away our rights

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[iverglas]

36. can I say it??

And the downside of this for MrBenchley (or heck, anybody else) would be ...?

[MrBenchley]

38. Non-existent...

Meanwhile, I can still point out the er, shortcomings, of our trigger happy friend....

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

41. with who? "pro gun democrats"?

hahahahahahaha!!!!

"standing naked in front of the rest of us "
Please note that I am conspicuously not mentioning the "Pink Pistols"

"who actually care about our freedom"
Not enough to actually mention anything pro-Democrat on a gun nut forum, obviously.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

51. Evidently not enough to mention it on gun nut forums....

"You may welcome the destruction of freedom in
America"
No, I don't like the gun lobby running roughshod over the rest of us.

"you really
are losing the debate here on DU"
Surrender, Dorothy!

"not because of anything I am saying"
I could comment, but at this point it would just be like kicking a blind dog....

"the ugly face of fascism that is creeping across this
country"
Oh no, the creeping face! Aiyeeeeeee!

Of course, guess the rest of us are not supposed to notice that its the gun lobby and the NRA fuckwits who are the loudest voice pushing for the Chimp and his ugly little knot of loonies...in fact, the NRA even started a "radio station" to get around the campaign finance laws and push for the Pirates of Halliburton.

[el_gato]

79. So then why are you opposed to Democrats owning guns?

Do you think only republicans should feel free to own guns.
You are constantly fighting against other democrats who advocate
gun ownership. I guess when the brown shirts start busting
down people's doors your still gonna be yelling at people
for advocting gun ownership by people who are opposed to
fascism.

You can whine and cry all you want about the NRA but there
are alot of people who are concerned about the being disarmed
in the face of fascism.

I'm not an NRA member because it's corrupt. That still does
not mean that we should not own guns.

[MrBenchley]

82. Tee hee hee....

"I guess when the brown shirts start busting
down people's doors"
Funny, the actual neoNazis at lewrockwell.com didn't seem to bother you one little bit....

[el_gato]

86. I'm the one warning about fascists

Your the one trying to disarm democrats.

[MrBenchley]

92. By defending crap from an actual neoNazi website?

Yeah, surrrrrrrrrre.....

[el_gato]

95. The subject is about the right to privacy not lewrockwell or whatever

red herring


next

[MrBenchley]

99. The subject is lewrockwell.com

who are the actual fascists that you're always caterwauling about.

[FeebMaster]

If lewrockwell.com bothers you

I suggest you stay out of GD. People seem to link it all the time up there.

[MrBenchley]

103. If it doesn't bother you, feeb...

I can only guess it's because you agree with its repellant message....

[FeebMaster]

105. That was a good one.

One of your better.

[el_gato]

111. The subject is the right to privacy free from extortion

but you can whine and cry about side issues all you want
I DON'T CARE

[MrBenchley]

114. The subject is why gato openly plays kneesies with fascists

like lewrockwell.com but then pretends his popgun is "freedom"

[el_gato]

121. Again benchly can't discuss the issue so he whines about a website

the issue here is the fact that the federal government will bankrupt you if you don't tell them everything they want to know about your bathroom. It's wrong and he knows it so he would rather whine and cry about a website.

Again, should the federal government have the right to bankrupt you if you don't tell them everything they want to know about you personal life?

Too bad benchly refuses to discuss the issue.

[MrBenchley]

124. Too TOO funny...

You play with your neoNazi friends all you want, gato.

[el_gato]

130. Name calling because you have no points to make

DO you think it is okay for the feds to bankrupt a family because they don't want to talk to them about their bathrooms?

[MrBenchley]

143. Gee, gato, I've made at least two excellent points...

We've found that the reason you can;t say anything proDemocrat at a gun nut forum is that you claim to be unable to think of anything proDemocrat...and that the person peddling actual fascist propaganda turns out to be YOU.

[el_gato]

148. Again you can't defend your position so you try to distract

Your digging a hole benchley. Now tell me again exactly why you think
it's okay for the feds to bankrupt families who don't beleive that
they should turn over details about their toilet usage.

[RoeBear]

183. Hey Benchley! Since you are so opposed to gun ownership...

...when the shit hits the fan can I use you as a human shield?



At least you'll be of some benefit.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[LibLabUK]

33. Umm...

Are you advocating violence?

[MrBenchley]

57. Hope it's just the dull thud of rhetoric

but it sure seems to me that ever since the Wall Street Journal called DU a "left wing hate site" we've had a steady increase in these "let's grab our shootin arn and start blasting" posts from the trigger happy amongst us.

[FatSlob]

34. Always impressive to see how many "patriots"

have the goal of disarming the populace to make is unable to fight back against the government.

[MrBenchley]

44. Bang Bang! Yippeee!

The "dull thud of lead" is not nearly as dull as the tired rhetoric of the trigger happy.

[greendeerslayer]

187. blah blah blah

MisterB. - You don't seem to be tired of rhetoric one bit, day after day, you are here, calling anyone interested in keeping the 2nd Amendment a RWinger, or closet nazi, don't you have a day job? Some other outside interest other than what weapons I have in the gun safe (or loaded on my hip)?
You see I don't give a shit what personal property you own, you however are deeply (and irrationally) interested in taking my personal property. I have news for you, you can flame away here and donate money to Feinstein and do your best to enact gun laws - it will never happen. The american people are armed and we will stay that way. There is nothing you can do about it other than support a repressive state.

[library_max]

181. Again, it's ridiculous to suppose that you can take on the US military

with any weapons you might be able to buy. Maybe in a Will Smith movie, but not in real life. The way to fight back against the present government is with votes.

[greendeerslayer]

188. Really?

The Iraqi people are doing quite well, I plan on voting for Kerry this year, but I voted for Gore last time (along with a majority of the populace), but it didn't matter did it?

[patricia92243]

3. If you are a registered Republican and vote Republican, then you are a

Republican :) Nothing else.

[rpannier]

4. Dean's a Hunter and Owns guns...

So, it doesn't make you a puke.

[MrBenchley]

5. Jinkies!

Wonder how many liberals you've ever known who regurgitated stale right wing talking points about what a raw deal David Koresh got from "the government"?

"It seems if you are pro-RKBA... you must be a Republican."
Jeepers.....

[neverborn]

6. I'm pro-RKBA. MrBenchley, am I a Republican?

Don't beat around the bush with "Jeepers" and other bullshit.

Koresh has nothing to do with my post, I did not mention David Koresh, nor have I mentioned David Koresh in my entire time on DU.

So, given my post, am I a Republican?

[MrBenchley]

7. Well then excuse the fuck out of me....

Maybe you'd like to go over to one of the gun loony forums, where nothing but ditto-monkey rubbish is ever uttered aloud, and start making proDemocrat arguments and tell them why Kerry ought to be president. So far all of our "pro gun democrats" never have anything but excuses as to why they can't.

"Koresh has nothing to do with my post"
Maybe you ought to go peek at the thread where our "pro gun democrats" were regurgitating stale right wing crap about the gun nuts' little tin messiah for the past two days before you open your yap, then.

[T Town Jake]

18. Ahhh, I see our new friend has already...

...had an educational encounter about how things work down here, rhetorically at least, in the Gungeon with our gun control crowd courtesy of you, Bench. Gee, I wished I'd seen this before I wasted all that time trying to explain it to him myself...one of your posts is worth a thousand words in that regard, after all. Hope he's a quick learner.

[MrBenchley]

19. Yup...

He came in, bloviated about the RKBA and left....

"how things work down here, rhetorically at least, in the Gungeon with our gun control crowd courtesy of you, Bench"
Jeeze, Jake...I'm not the one who starts threads with phony slqams against Kerry...or tries to pass shit from right wing fuckwits as gold....

"Hope he's a quick learner."
Hey, if he was any sort of learner he wouldn't swallow that bogus "gun rights" horseshit.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

28. Actually, it's the RKBA cause that's bogus from stem to stern...

and peddled on the national stage by the actual scum of the earth...like the Second Amendment Caucus.

[el_gato]

40. Attacking persoal freedom at every turn is the benchly trademark

nobody is buying bench

[MrBenchley]

42. "persoal freedom?"

Gee, gato....the Democratic slate, most elected Democrats, most liberal writers and pundits, and 70% of the voters support gun control...guess a lot of people are buying.

[el_gato]

49. You don't have a clue as to what personal freedom means bench

sadly

[MrBenchley]

52. Sure I do...

and it doesn't involve skulking to church with a popgun in my pants...

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

66. Go ahead and show us the link, gato

[FatSlob]

109. If you want to call you penis a popgun, feel free.

Please don't do it here, though.

[MrBenchley]

115. Not me, fat slob...

but then I don't get my jollies off gun porn either...or pretend Dianne Feinstein is going to grab my gun....

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greendeerslayer]

189. So we don't have a 2nd Amendment cause you don't agree with it?

Is there anything else in the Constitution you'd like to delete?
You're not a liberal, you're an authoritarian.

[madmom]

8. people who vote one issue......

and one issue only is whats wrong with this country, they can't see beyond the end of their special interest noses. nuff said!

[Nay]

9. Not at all. I am practically a socialist and I have 2 guns. I can

use 'em, too.

[madmom]

10. I think it was...

Col. Jeff Cooper who said in his book The Art of the Rifle,"fear the man who owns only one rifle for chances are good he knows how to use it".

[MrBenchley]

12. That would be the same Jeff Cooper

who calls black people orangoutangs...helluva swell source you got there.

[taxidriver]

60. lol. whoops.

[T Town Jake]

17. I understand precisely where you're coming from...

...but if you're RKBA brace yourself for the coming blizzard of rhetorical garbage - including base innuendo's, repeated straw-men arguments, snide profanity tarted up as commentary, and cartload after cartload of apples being mixed with oranges about anything you have to say in a post - that's sure to follow. One thing you'll learn for sure is how many ways you can slyly be called a Freeper/Troll/Right-wing "Fucktwit" without actually openly & honestly being labeled as such within the bounds of the English language as it is strictly interpreted.
However, in the lull before that storm, allow me to say Welcome! Glad you're here; I look forward to your posts. But batten down your rhetorical hatches... :evilgrin: ...as you've observed, not even the I/P forum at DU has anything on the Gungeon in the passionately-held-beliefs Department.

[MrBenchley]

20. Hee hee hee....

"without actually openly & honestly being labeled as such"
Not true, Jake...we've got "enthusiasts" earning tombstones on a pretty regular basis.

"as you've observed, not even the I/P forum at DU has anything on the Gungeon in the passionately-held-beliefs Department."
That's probably true...I'll bet there aren't right wing fuckwits boasting about trolling on that issue here, the way there are gun nuts doing so on gun nut forums.

[Romulus]

23. Nah -just a lunatic asswipe!

Welcome :hi:

[el_gato]

24. the sad truth about the anti-gun types here on DU

most of them are ideological puritans who constantly spew invective
at every turn. As well, they worship at the throne of big brother
and come down on the side of the government intrusion into our
private lives every chance they get.

These people have an agenda.

[MrBenchley]

29. Yup, those damn "big government liberals"

good thing your side has folks like Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity speaking up for them....they're pro-gun all the way.

[el_gato]

43. weak attempts by you to pigeon hole anyone who disagrees with you

no ones buying bench, get a new line at least

You consistently come down on the side of the state
whenever a question involving the right to privacy,
gun ownership, etc. is involved. You get mad at anyone
who does not worship at the throne of authority and it
pains you to see people who can't stand the bush regime
stand up for their right to own a gun and be free
of intrusion into their personal lives.

Your schtick is wearing thin here on DU and besides you
and the few others who hate personal liberty, the rest
of us see what your agenda is all about.

Sadly for you, resorting to name calling and trying to
paint the discussions in an ideological black and white
framework is all you have left.

Meanwhile the bushgang are out talking about cancelling
elections, expanding domestic spying etc. etc. In this
climate people are realizing that they cannot risk giving
up anymore of the our precious freedoms.

[MrBenchley]

46. Gee, gato, who needs a new line

when all you have is this same old puddle of blah?

"it pains you to see people who can't stand the bush regime
stand up for their right to own a gun"
It makes me laugh like hell to hear "enthusiasts" pretend that parrtoing the crap John AshKKKroft is peddling is somehow standing up to him.

Especially when we get nothing but excuses as to why our "pro gun democrats" can't say a single pro-Democrat word on those gun nut forums that drip with ditto-monkey rubbish.

[el_gato]

50. Again you engage in an effort at ideological puritanism

Anybody who is a Dem but owns a gun must be EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!

It all rings so hollow and pathetically desperate.

[MrBenchley]

54. And again you dodge the question

Wonder why all these "pro gun democrats" never have anything but excuses as to why they can't counter the right wing rubbish that is common on every gun nut forum.

They sure are quick to attack Democrats and post right wing horseshit day in and day out.

[el_gato]

65. your the one that lurks at these "gun nut" forums

Kinda like puritanical anti-sex fundamentalists lurking at porn sites.

But hey, I guess you're just upset that I spend my time here at
DU defending our freedoms.

You always resort to this phoney tactic when you've run
out of ammunition. Too bad for you because you're losing.

By the way, what is it that you want people to go to these
forums and say? You hate all of us who are democrats who
support the right to privacy and gun owneership but yet you
want people to go to some bullshit web forum and argue for
what you so desperately argue against on this forum.
You're strange desires leave me thinking you're just using
it as a red-herring more than anything else.

[MrBenchley]

67. Gee, gato, that's hilarious....

"Kinda like puritanical anti-sex fundamentalists lurking at porn sites"
Only to someone who can't tell the difference between a gun and genitals....for me it's like going to the zoo, only with weirder specimens....

"By the way, what is it that you want people to go to these
forums and say"
Well, that sure says it all.....excuse number 10,006: Gato can't say anything proDemocrat because he can't think of anything proDemocrat.

[FatSlob]

48. Sounds like...?

Worshiping at the throne of authority.
Hating when rights are stood up for.
Loving intrusion into personal lives.
Hating personal liberty.
Name calling.
Ideological black and whites.

Sounds like items out of Hitler's, Stalin's, and Mao's playbooks.

I'm glad that NOBODY here on DU thinks that way!

[MrBenchley]

55. Nope, instead we've got "enthusiasts"

Who attack Democrats day and night

Post right wing crap day and night, and

Defend bigots and crazies using right wing talking points

And unfortunately, we've got too many of them.

[FatSlob]

62. Hmmm, was I replied too? I wonder what it says.

I bet it has at least some of the following words:

trash, crap, fuckwit, right wing, bigot, enthusiasts, KKK, sheet, shitheels, "attacking Democrats", lunatic, asswipe, or other such sentiments, in fact, I'll bet that it is fairly predictable. I'll bet that it is well written and reasoned too! I'll also bet that MANY people take the author seriously.

After all, this is the guy who called me a neurotic in a oblique manner, but didn't have the testicular fortitude to say it directly.

[iverglas]

30. help me

before I die of curiosity.

"the anti-gun types here on DU
... These people have an agenda.

I'm not "anti-gun" (my nose does wrinkle in such disgust at such demagoguishly meaningless language), but if you didn't mean to include me in that "the anti-gun types here on DU", I don't know who you did.

So tell me, since you're pretty plainly claiming to know. What is my agenda?

And if you're *not* talking about moi, tell me what somebody else's agenda is. Call him/her "Mr./Ms. X", of course, and I won't complain. Just tell me what his/her agenda is.

[MrBenchley]

31. Funny, isn't it?

Running down Democrats and posting right wing horseshit on a daily basis doesn't seem to gato to be an agenda at all....

[iverglas]

56. chirp

Posts 39, 47, 49, 50, 53 have come and gone since I asked my question, and still no answer ... unless I should take the allegations of freedom-hating in some of those as applicable to moi and answers to my question. I'd rather have my very own answer, though.

[MrBenchley]

59. Guess the question can't be honestly answered....

Are you surprised? Me neither.

[el_gato]

70. It's crystal clear

But since your the one that hides behind the "well I live in Canada" excuse, I won't even bother to include you in on anything.

but anyway, just yesterday Benchly was attacking people who are
opposed to the feds fining people thousands of dollars for not
answering asinine questions like how many times a day you flush
your toilet.

The Agenda is one in which individual freedom is destroyed in favor
of total subservience to a tyrannical government. You can deny
and hem-haw all you want but the rest of us see it clear as day.

[MrBenchley]

74. Show her the thread, gato...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1984563

You might be surprised to see the thread concerns an article by far right wing loony Ron Paul, published on....(wait for it)...neoNazi nutsack lewrockwell.com.

"The Ludwig von Mises Institute, founded in 1982 by Llewellyn Rockwell Jr. and still headed by him, is a major center promoting libertarian political theory and the Austrian School of free market economics, pioneered by the late economist Ludwig von Mises. It publishes seven journals, has printed more than 100 books, and offers scholarships, prizes, conferences and a major library at its Auburn, Ala., offices.
It also promotes a type of Darwinian view of society in which elites are seen as natural and any intervention by the government on behalf of social justice is destructive. The institute seems nostalgic for the days when, "because of selective mating, marriage, and the laws of civil and genetic inheritance, positions of natural authority likely to be passed on within a few noble families."
But the rule of these natural elites and intellectuals, writes institute scholar Hans-Hermann Hoppe, is being ruined by statist meddling such as "affirmative action and forced integration," which he said is "responsible for the almost complete destruction of private property rights, and the erosion of freedom of contract, association, and disassociation."
A key player in the institute for years was the late Murray Rothbard, who worked with Rockwell closely and co-edited a journal with him. The institute's Web site includes a cybershrine to Rothbard, a man who complained that the "Officially Oppressed" of American society (read, blacks, women and so on) were a "parasitic burden," forcing their "hapless Oppressors" to provide "an endless flow of benefits."
"The call of 'equality,'" he wrote, "is a siren song that can only mean the destruction of all that we cherish as being human." Rothbard blamed much of what he disliked on meddling women. In the mid-1800s, a "legion of Yankee women" who were "not fettered by the responsibilities" of household work "imposed" voting rights for women on the nation. Later, Jewish women, after raising funds from "top Jewish financiers," agitated for child labor laws, Rothbard adds with evident disgust. The "dominant tradition" of all these activist women, he suggests, is lesbianism. "

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=106

Yeah, THAT lew rockwell....

Needless to say, Paul's diatribe is about the Census bureau attemting not to undercount minorities. Funny how rubbing elbows with real fascists didn't seem to bother gato there...

[el_gato]

84. You came out attacking the messenger, you hated the message

I guess it's okay for the feds to fine people for protecting
their right to privacy. I suppose, in your mind, the feds have
a right to know how many times you go to the bathroom everyday.

Anybody who thinks the governemnt needs to know every little
detail of your personal life is sadly in favor of the destrution
of privacy.

Here is what Ron Paul had to say:

-----------------------------------------------------

You may not have heard of the American Community Survey, but you will. The national census, which historically is taken every ten years, has expanded to quench the federal bureaucracy’s ever-growing thirst to govern every aspect of American life. The new survey, unlike the traditional census, is taken each and every year at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars. And it’s not brief. It contains 24 pages of intrusive questions concerning matters that simply are none of the government’s business, including your job, your income, your physical and emotional heath, your family status, your dwelling, and your intimate personal habits.

The questions are both ludicrous and insulting. The survey asks, for instance, how many bathrooms you have in your house, how many miles you drive to work, how many days you were sick last year, and whether you have trouble getting up stairs. It goes on and on, mixing inane questions with highly detailed inquiries about your financial affairs. One can only imagine the countless malevolent ways our federal bureaucrats could use this information. At the very least the survey will be used to dole out pork, which is reason enough to oppose it.

Keep in mind the survey is not voluntary, nor is the Census Bureau asking politely. Americans are legally obligated to answer, and can be fined up to $1,000 per question if they refuse!

---------------------------------------------------------

Yep, if you think the right to privacy is a good thing then
you're gonna be demonized by those who want to destory the right
to privacy.

[MrBenchley]

87. The messenger is a extremist right wing loony

and the message was being pushed by actual anti-Semitic neoNazis...if that's your idea of freedom...you're welcome to it.

[el_gato]

91. So how many toilets are in your house bench?

Again it's the message that we have a right to privacy that you
can't stand. You can attack Ron Paul all you want but he's right
on this one, just as he was right to oppose the patriot act as
well as the Iraq invasion.

I know it's a little complicated but people are individuals and I
don't expect to agree with everybody on everything. I'm not
and ideological puritan and thus I can understand how
some people come to view that are not in line with my own.
Thus, the fact that you have to bring up other issues in order
to try to dismiss his point is very telling.

The point is though, we should protect our right to live
in the privacy of our own homes without being fined by the federal
government for not reporting our bathroom habits.

[MrBenchley]

94. I'll tell the Census Bureau

"You can attack Ron Paul all you want"
Yeah, we still got that right, although "enthusiasts" like you try to pass the extremist loony off as some sor tof holy saint.

"the fact that you have to bring up other issues"
Gato, you're defending ACTUAL NEO-NAZIS. That;'s hardly an "other issue."

"I'm not and ideological puritan"
Gee, so you're just going to swallow crap from lewrockwell.com like "Later, Jewish women, after raising funds from "top Jewish financiers," agitated for child labor laws, Rothbard adds with evident disgust. The "dominant tradition" of all these activist women, he suggests, is lesbianism. ?" Include me out.

[el_gato]

97. Again you can't stand the message

The right to privacy is what you don't believe in judging
buy you effort to defend the feds for fining people thousands
of dollars if you refuse to report your bathroom details.

[MrBenchley]

If you get your message from fascists like lewrockwell.com

you're welcome to it.

But don't even try to pretend that it has anything to do with "freedom."

[el_gato]

104. Again you can't deal with the issue, so you engage in unrelated details

lewrockwell is not the issue

The issue is the defense of our right to privacy.
I know you don't believe in the right to privacy and you
support the federal government fining people thousands
upon thousands of dollars if they don't bow down to
the tyrrany. That is the issue.

[MrBenchley]

106. Fascism is not an unrelated detail...

and the fact that it doesn't bother you to rub elbows with actual neoNazis says VOLUMES.

[el_gato]

113. I'm opposed the subjugating the individual to the corporate/government

tag team

unlike you

You are the one siding with fascism when all of your arguements
are against individual freedom. Nevertheless, you emply the
red-herring tactic.

[MrBenchley]

116. And yet you're the one snuggling up to neoNazis

and trying to help far right wing loony Ron Paul block the American people from learning needed facts about the country they live in...

[el_gato]

122. Again you can't debate the issue so you try distractions

too bad for you

[MrBenchley]

126. Gee, who is that using a neoNazi site as a refernence

why it's the guy who claims he's fighting fascists....who else is surprised? Me enither.

[el_gato]

134. look who's afraid to discuss the issues

I would be trying to avoid discussing them too if I
were supporting an out of control federal government
that sees fit to bankrupt people for not revealing
details about thier toilet bowls.

[el_gato]

138. Bench thinks bankrupting people in order to invade their homes

is okay

In other words, if you don't tell them everything they want to
know about your bathroom, your route to work, your ability to
walk up and down stairs, etc. then benchly thinks the federal
government should have the right to bankrupt you and your family.
Holding a position like that is antithetical to what is means
to be an american.

[MrBenchley]

142. Gee, gato, I'm happy to discuss fascism

and the sort of neoNazi nonsense lewrockwell.com is peddling.

[el_gato]

145. You can't discuss your position

Which is the feds should have the right to extort details about our private lives.

It's and indefensible position and you are smart to run from it.

[MrBenchley]

147. My position is I'm opposed to neoNazi propaganda

unlike the person who seems to want to spread it...

[el_gato]

154. You are on this board advocating governmental extortion

talk about nazi horseshit

[el_gato]

163. The destruction of the right to privacy is fundamentally fascist

Too bad benchly thinks it's okay to bankrupt people
if they don't reveal every aspect of their personal lives
the the fascists.

[iverglas]

78. I just can't find it

I used my gold star, and I searched, and I just can't find Benchley talking about toilets. Can ya maybe just tell me what forum it was in??

Oh, oh. Maybe I get it. Maybe what he was really doing was defending the position that the government is entitled to ask the public questions to which it needs answers in order to plan public policy for the future -- for things like freshwater conservation and planning -- in the interests of the nation and its people, and to require that answers to those questions be given.

Could it have been something like that?


But since your the one that hides behind the "well I live in Canada" excuse, I won't even bother to include you in on anything.

That would be my "excuse" for ... ... working ... what?

And how might the excuse you are offering for not substantiating your allegation have anything to do with that allegation? --

the sad truth about the anti-gun types here on DU
most of them are ideological puritans who constantly spew invective at every turn. As well, they worship at the throne of big brother and come down on the side of the government intrusion into our private lives every chance they get.
These people have an agenda.

Sure, maybe I refrain from "com<ing> down on the side of the government instrusion into <your> private lives every chance they get". But am I not an ideological puritan who constantly spews invective at every turn? How would hiding behind being Canadian be an excuse for ... well, I don't know. Not doing that? I guess it might be an explanation for not doing that, Canadians being so nice and all.

So all in all, you weren't talking about moi? How nice.

And what you were saying -- about "the anti-gun types here on DU" -- is that the agenda they have is this:

The Agenda is one in which individual freedom is destroyed in favor of total subservience to a tyrannical government.

Well, I guess I got my answer, and may I say how brave that was.

[MrBenchley]

80. Here's the thread he's on about, Iverglas...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1984563

And guess which one of us is sticking up the for the actual fascists at lewrockwell.com who promote a neoNazi agenda, complete with anti-Semitism?

"Maybe what he was really doing was defending the position that the government is entitled to ask the public questions to which it needs answers in order to plan public policy for the future -- for things like freshwater conservation and planning -- in the interests of the nation and its people, and to require that answers to those questions be given."
Now who could possibly object to that, except a right wing loony who has dedicated his "career" to ensure inequality, injustice and greed rule...you know, somebody like Ron Paul?

[el_gato]

88. Yeah your toilet is so important to the federal government

what a larf!!!!

It's funny you have to resort to pathetic name calling and attacking the messenger rathe than deal with the issue.

But hey, I have never seen you post one little thing
in favor of protecting our freedoms.

[MrBenchley]

No, gato, what's funny

is you trying to pretend you do anything but stick up for fascism after this.

[iverglas]

96. what's funny

"Yeah your toilet is so important to the federal government
what a larf!!!!

is people going bonkers over things they haven't a clue about.

Number of toilets in a household is a universally standard question in census surveys. It provides a measure of social/economic development in the country, and of levels of poverty. Some here might be surprised to know how many in their country don't have indoor toilets. I was, when I picked up a middle-aged woman hitchhiking on the back roads of north-central Maine and declined her offer of a couple of bucks for going out of my way to take her home in favour of the use of her bathroom when we got there ... and didn't mention it again when I realized that the tarpapered ex-mobile home she lived in didn't have one.

Information like that can assist govt. in targeting economic development and social assistance spending. Not that this is something a Libertarian would regard as a valid govt. objective, of course.

Statistics Canada (the census-administering govt. agency) specifically asks about low-flush toilets in its surveys. They're mandatory for new sales now, but old water-guzzling ones are still affecting our use of water resources.

Information about their numbers, and household toilet use, can provide guidance for the govt. on things like whether to offer subsidies for replacing old ones with new. Again, not something you'd find a Libertarian applauding.

But how much nicer if they come out and state their - ideological or other - objections straightforwardly, rather than representing the govt. policies and actions in question as stupid when they know the rationale and should be addressing it, or larfing uproariously when they have not even bothered to investigate the reasons for those policies and actions.

Me, I don't know which is the case here. But I'm not seeing any straightforward criticism by an informed person, in any event.

[el_gato]

100. The objections are clear

Either you think the federal government should have the ability to extort details about every aspect of your personal life or not.

It's very simple.

[el_gato]

101. As he points out here

"The census also represents a form of corporate welfare, since the personal data collected on hundred of millions of Americans can be sold to private businesses. Surely business enjoys having such extensive information available from one source, but it’s hardly the duty of taxpayers to subsidize the cost of market research."

[MrBenchley]

102. Too too funny...

Restrict such information to the corporate powers instead of the American public...that's "freedom" all right.

No wonder the neoNazis at lewrockwell.com love this loony.

[FeebMaster]

107. Way to miss the point.

He's arguing against the government selling the data to corporations.

[MrBenchley]

117. Didn't miss the point at all...

and in fact, the data is available to anyone who visits the Census website, despite Paul's lies...

[el_gato]

125. benchly has no problem supporting heavy handed governemental extortion

Bankrupting people because they feel their bathrooms are none of the governments business is a dispicable act but for some strange reason
benchley thinks its great.

[MrBenchley]

128. Nope...and I know neoNazis when I see them too...

Guess I'm one of those "big government liberals" right wing loonies like Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity are always ranting about...and they're pro gun too....

The RKBA crowd has just the nicest playmates...

[el_gato]

137. Bench has to talk about "playmates" because he can't discuss the facts

And the fact is he supports the federal government bankrupting
families because they don't think that their bathrooms are any
of the governments business.

The right to privacy is a fundamental aspect of living in
a free society. Too bad benchly wants us all to subjugate
our freedoms to an out of control federal governemnt.

[el_gato]

140. and the facts are the feds will fine you thousands

If you don't tell them everything they want to know
about your private life. The right to privacy is
fundamental to living in a free society.

[MrBenchley]

146. And the fact is that lewrockwell.com is a neoNazi site

and that Ron Paul is a far right wing piece of shit, opposed to anything even the least bit liberal or progressive...and that the guy who howls loud and long about "fighting fascism" turns out to be promoting it.

[el_gato]

156. This is not about lewwhatver it's about your support of fascism

You are sitting here advocating the right of the feds to bankrupt people for not giving detailed private information about everything from your bathroom to your drive to work.

Instead you want to whine and cry about some website. Why are you afraid to discuss your own position?

[MrBenchley]

158. It certainly is about lewrockwell.com

You go on and on about fighting fascists...yet you swallow their propaganda without even pausing...and then try to peddle it here.

[el_gato]

160. This is about your support of fascism

Subjugating the individual for the needs of the corporate police state.
IT's an indefensible position and you are smart to avoid discussing it.

[MrBenchley]

162. It's not ME pushing neoNazi propaganda, gato...

[el_gato]

164. Your very postion is fascist

bankrupting people for not bowing down to even the smallest
of demands of an out of control and intrusive government is
about as fascist as you can get.

[MrBenchley]

167. And yet you're the one with the neoNazi playmates...

Guess we can see gato's commitment to "fighting fascism" refers to fighting FOR it.

[el_gato]

169. Destroying privacy is #1 on the fascist agenda your supporting

You talk about "playmates" because you can't defend your position.
Time and again you take the side of the corporate/fascist state over the rights of citizens. Your position is fundamentally fascist.

[iverglas]

180. could you at least

learn how to use contractions in these flaming and scurillous and really very very silly fables you're telling?

"You are" is contracted to "you're", NOT "YOUR", as you've been spamming the board with all day.

Not the sort of thing that normally warrants comment, but really, my eyes are starting to bleed.

Thank you in advance.

[el_gato]

108. I am against the corporate powers as well the federal powers

lewrockwell is not the issue

I know you can't understand the complexities of this discussion very well so I will explain it to you.

As Mussolini, who coined the term fascism, pointed out, fascism is the marriage of corporate power and government power. Now this detailed information that the feds extract from you under the threat of bankrupting you is then turned over to the corporate slime.

It was even pointed out in the article cited that this is a form
of corporate welfare.

Now as far as your lame effort to try and pigeonhole my position, you have failed. I don't support those in the libertarian sections who advocate corporate freedom. I do not feel that corporations should be given the freedoms that inherently citizens hold. I use the word inherent here because our freedoms are not "given" by the government, they are ours by right of birth. But that is a side issue. The main point here is that we have the right to live in the privacy of our own homes without fear of government snooping.

[MrBenchley]

118. lewrockwell.com is exactly the point...

"It was even pointed out in the article cited that this is a form
of corporate welfare."
And you actually believe at face value what a far right wing loony tells you on a website run by people who are openly promoting neoNazi beliefs?

Yeah, that's freedom, all right.

[el_gato]

123. Again benchly can't discuss the issues so he hides behind distractions

Should be federal government have the right to bankrupt people
for not telling them everything they want to know about your personal
life? The clear answer is no here but yet benchly wants to whine and
cry about some website.

Too bad he can't actually address the issues.

[OpSomBlood]

129. Nothing "too bad" about it.

It serves as a fantastic indicator for most of us of the level of discourse we should expect from Ignored.

[MrBenchley]

175. It's an even better indicator of what's really lurking

under that gun rights sheet....and what sort of things our trigger happy brehtren are really defending when they spout their RKBA rubbish...

"Since the late '90s, neo-Confederate historians, "heritage" advocates and hate groups have declared total war on what they call the "Lincoln myth." Firing away in books and articles and Web sites, they've been battling to transform Lincoln into a figure few history students would recognize: a racist dictator who trashed the Constitution and turned the U.S.A. into an imperialist welfare state.
"They've decided to make him into a kind of Stalin or Hitler," says historian George Ewert, who directs Alabama's Museum of Mobile. For proof, check out the bulging "King Lincoln" archive on the libertarian Web site LewRockwell.com (see also Ludwig von Mises Institute, in Into the Mainstream), where the headlines tell the story: "Heil, Abe," "Lincoln vs. Liberty," "Hitler Was a Lincolnite," "Lincoln: Slavery A-OK," and, for Lincoln's birthday, "Happy Dictator Day." "

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=52

Almost goes without saying that the fuckwits at lewrockwell.com are "gun rights" all the way...

[MrBenchley]

131. I'd say neoNazis ARE the issue, gato...

and that your phony issue is nothing but a lame attempt to hurt people by keeping information they're entitled to from them...which is why a far right wing loony like Ron Paul is pimping it.

[MrBenchley]

132. I'd say neoNazis ARE the issue, gato...

and that your phony issue is nothing but a lame attempt to hurt people by keeping information they're entitled to from them...which is why a far right wing loony like Ron Paul is pimping it.

[el_gato]

135. Finacially destroying people over details about their bathrooms

I would be trying to avoid discussing them too if I
were supporting an out of control federal government
that sees fit to bankrupt people for not revealing
details about thier toilet bowls.

[el_gato]

136. This goes to the heart of your mindset benchly

You are always on the side of destroying individual freedom
and subjugating citizens to an out of control government.
But hey, I guess in your mind, it's okay to fine people thousands
of dollars because they think their private lives are none of the
federal governments business.

[MrBenchley]

150. Yup...I'm opposed to Nazis

and think people have a right to know about their own communities.

[el_gato]

159. Your advocating fascism

You are sitting here advocating the feds financially destory people for not telling them details about their bathrooms. You are
holding an inherently fascist position. But intead of
discussing it you want to talk about a website, very telling.

[MrBenchley]

168. lewrockwell.com--neoNazi propaganda

and openly so.

[el_gato]

170. You are being openly fascist in your positions

but you want to whine and cry about a website.

Seems like you spend alot of time hanging out in places you say
you hate. Maybe it's gotten to you bench. I don't know nor do
I really care what is affecting your mind but the fact remains
that you support the subjugaction of people to the primacy of the
corporate/government tag team of fascist shitbags.

You have painted yourself into a corner bench and it appears that
you can't get out. I sure would hate to be you about now.

[iverglas]

149. too bad (edited)

Too bad he can't actually address the issues.

Too bad that when I did, you chose not to reply.

See post "chirp" and follow the dotted lines back.
All replies by el_gato to the post in question: 100% non-responsive.

Uh oh.



And oh yes -- have we somewhere established that the rules regarding responding to census surveys really can be characterized, i.e. can be honestly characterized, as "the federal government <having> the right to bankrupt people for not telling them everything they want to know about your personal life?"

'Cause if we haven't, that question -- "Should be federal government have the right to bankrupt people for not telling them everything they want to know about your personal life?" -- is just one of those nasty diaper-like ones: loaded. With a false premise. So nobody has to answer it, or should even try. So the kettle would have to be expunged from that picture, cause all there'd be would be a pot.


(edited because I'd pulled a bit of a CO Liberal in following my dotted lines)

[MrBenchley]

153. He's also resolutely ignoring post 120

which not only discusses the issue pretty well, but explains why a right wing loony like Ron Paul and the neoNazis at lewrockwell.com are so adamantly opposed...

[iverglas]

112. uh

it’s hardly the duty of taxpayers to subsidize the cost of market research.

If the information is being *sold*, are we quite sure that the cost of the research to the purchasers is being "subsidized"?

If the govt collects the information for proper govt purposes in any event (I don't think you've responded to my statement of what the purposes are), is there something wrong with the govt making a buck back on the cost by selling the information - as long as what is sold is aggregate and not nominative or identifying information? Does selling it at less than cost -- when the govt itself receives a benefit in return for the cost not covered by the sale -- amount to subsidizing?

Not by me. Looks like sound business practice, to me. Selling, at a discount, the surplus that is of no use to one's self.

Is fair trade not trade in which each party benefits -- gets something in return that is more valuable to it than what it gave up? Isn't that kinda the basis of that whole free-market thingy that Libertarians are so fond of?

[MrBenchley]

120. And in fact

what Paul objects to is that the American people can access such data so that natural resources can be apportioned fairly, so that communities can be empowered to take action, so that affirmative action can help level the playing field, so that the need for such things as public housing can be gauged and met...

but of course that's exactly the sort of thing far right wing loonies like Ron Paul object to...in the name of "freedom," of course. Which appeals to the sort of person who can't see beyond the end of their little popgun.

Of course, that's also why a bunch of neoNazis like the scum at lewrockwell.com love it. They eat this crap up with a spoon.

[el_gato]

161. So then you think the feds should bankrupt people

for not revealing details about their bathrooms.

Anything can be justified in the name of the public good.
Hell, in Singapore they were beating people for spitting
on the sidewalk. If that is the type of society you want
to live in don't expect many supporters.

[MrBenchley]

166. Yeah, and neoNazi propaganda will always be neoNazi propaganda

and you're welcome to it.

[el_gato]

171. You are the one expressing fascist positions

When someone holds so dearly to the idea that the citizens
of a country have no inalienable rights then that person is
truly a fascist. You can get out of this buy stating that
the feds should not have the right to financially destroy
somebody because they believe details abou their bathrooms
are none of the governments business but I have a feeling
that you think it's okay.

[el_gato]

172. Very telling how you don't even address the issue

you were whining about not responding to post 120, which I did
and then instead of addressing my debunking of your claims you
choose to go back to your red-herring games.

[iverglas]

177. hell, at DU

Anything can be justified in the name of the public good.
Hell, in Singapore they were beating people for spitting
on the sidewalk. If that is the type of society you want
to live in don't expect many supporters.

... it certainly found some support in the right-wing troll faction only just recently:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=63693

and I didn't notice Benchley jumping on that bandwagon. A right-wing troll or 2 (or 3 ;) ) did, though.

Anything can be justified in name of the public good?

I guess that's like how anything can be justified in the name of individual liberty.

I don't see anybody here attempting to justify beating people for spitting on sidewalks, in the name of the public good. In fact, I can't even begin to imagine how it could be so justified -- or how you would imagine it could ... or why you would say that you imagine it could ...

I surely do see some people attempting to justify some weird shit in the name of individual liberty, though.


(edited to insert missing word)

[iverglas]

139. chirp

But how much nicer if they come out and state their - ideological or other - objections straightforwardly, rather than representing the govt. policies and actions in question as stupid when they know the rationale and should be addressing it, or larfing uproariously when they have not even bothered to investigate the reasons for those policies and actions.

Me, I don't know which is the case here. But I'm not seeing any straightforward criticism by an informed person, in any event.


But oh well. I guess I'm just

[leanings]

35. Not only are you a Republican

You're also an incorrigible liar, a nutcase, an asswipe, a member of the Klan, a small-minded fetishist AND you have a small penis.

Welcome to the last acceptable nasty ignorant stereotype.

[taxidriver]

58. you may not be a republican, but be ready for mrbenchly....

utter not a pro gun word in his presence, lest he flame the hell out of you with his righteous indignation.

-sarcasm off-

(my apologies MB, i figured he deserved to be warned)

[MrBenchley]

61. Or he may be...

It's not like they don't wander in and earn tombstones with monotonous regularity...

[taxidriver]

63. except he has a 1000+ posts, and people here are more perceptive than

that.

oh well. as a pro-gun person myself...more power to him. in my opinion, i wouldnt want to live in a world where the only people with guns are cops, criminals, and freepers. i'd think most people will agree with that.

[MrBenchley]

68. Don't bet on it...

There's at least one gun nut site where the right wing fuckwits were advised to post 1,000 times or so in the lounge on non-political topics before they started trolling....

You know, everybody's got guns in Somalia...somehow it isn't heaven on earth, though.

[taxidriver]

69. that's because everyone with a gun in somalia is the equivelant of

a freeper, getting paid to whipe out political dissidents.

everyone also has a gun in switzerland, by national law. and it is pretty damn close to paradise. very, very low crime rates.

[MrBenchley]

71. Too TOO funny....

"everyone also has a gun in switzerland"
The guns are all registered and every round has to be accounted for IN WRITING. And it's near impossible to get a handgun. Sounds good to me.

Of course, they're rethinking those laws after some nutcase shot up his canton's legislature.

[taxidriver]

72. i didnt say they werent registered. but they're there. and wrongdoers

know that.

are you going to rob a home when you know they have a military rifle inside, loaded?

[MrBenchley]

75. So does that mean you support registration of all guns?

"are you going to rob a home when you know they have a military rifle inside"
Happens here all the time....it's a great way for a criminal to get his hands on one. Hilariously, it was one of the rationales offered by those of our trigger-happy brethren who claimed they needed to have concealed weapons to skulk to church or the pancake house as to why the names of permit holders had to be withheld from the public....not only did their guns endanger us, but then they had to hide among us unarmed folks for "cover."

[taxidriver]

81. i dont care if my gun is registered. i was just pointing out...

that if they are used responsibly by proper citizens, they can help defend themselves against many forms of, shall we say, yuckiness. i'm not trying to start a flame war here- i was just trying to illuminate the other side of the issue.

please notice i havent said anything bad about democrats or anything, dont feel like you have to slap my wrists. i was trying to clarify what my thoughts were on guns and self defense.

by the way, i've only been posting in this forum for about a week. I've noticed that you probably post here as much as half of everyone else combined- are you making it your mission to flush out suspected freepers?

(if you are, i laud you- it certainly seems as if you've made a name for yourself here).

[MrBenchley]

85. So you support gun registration?

I myself think guns should be registered and gun owners licensed and regularly required to demonstrate proficiency and account for their guns. And that ammunition sales should be restricted to those able to produce a valid license.

[taxidriver]

89. i'm torn- see, i like some notions of registration...but if bush 'wins'

again...i wouldnt want the resulting powerbrokers to know where and what guns i had. i think we can agree that swiss leaders have been a bit more reasonable than buscho.

can you understand where i'm coming from?

[MrBenchley]

98. Gee, it's hilarious

IF the Pirates of Halliburton "win" it's going to be the gun lobby that provides most of the push, again.

[OpSomBlood]

133. That's exactly why it's important to take gun control off the table...

...so that the right-wing "gun lobby" no longer has any teeth or power. If Democrats would stop trying so hard to take gun rights away from law-abiding citizens, organizations like the NRA would have no reason to align with the Republicans.

Not that I expect you to see it that way.

[MrBenchley]

141. Gee, what a preposterous idea...

We should bend over and spread 'em for the ugliest, least honest, and most extreme splinter group the Republicans have...because otherwise they'll act like ugly dishonest extremists.

And of course, then we could have the "joy" of having fuckwits like Ted Nugent and Jeff Cooper on our side...no thanks.

[OpSomBlood]

151. It's funny how the right to own guns wasn't considered "extremist"...

...until about 20 years ago.

[MrBenchley]

155. Not so funny at all

It's no mystery what's really peeping out from under that "gun rights" sheet....

"Guns entered national politics in the 1970s. What is called the gun rights movement sprang into motion against a waning civil rights movement and a growing push for women's rights. One organizer of gun rights from the early '70s put it bluntly when I interviewed him. Conservatives were taking a beating. Something was needed to "reverse the flow in the pipes" of the civil rights movement. The social movements based on the rights of women and minorities had bolstered the Democratic Party. Conservatives who had fought against the gains of civil rights and the Equal Rights Amendment needed to counter. Enter the gun.
And when the gun spoke, it championed the cause of conservative and libertarian America. A proxy politics, the gun rights movement is a potent reaction to the social and political agendas of what is perceived as "liberal America." It takes aim at a range of social solutions for crime, international conflict and personal security. In America, the gun has become a litmus test for political beliefs.
The beginnings of this movement were quiet. In the early '70s, the Young Americans for Freedom, a conservative political organization, started the Student's Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. From it sprang the Second Amendment Foundation and then Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. In those groups a righteous cause and a political vision was born. Guns began their career as key props in a changing political theater.
Within two years, the Gun Owners of America organization appeared with its leadership roots in the John Birch Society. Thirty years later, the group remains true to its mission, a watchdog group making sure the gun rights movement stays on course, fulfilling its reactionary conservative mandate. "

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/176458_focus06.html

[OpSomBlood]

173. You're right. We want the right to own guns because we're racist.

Damn, I didn't think we were so transparent!

[el_gato]

144. this ones for you OP

in honor of your quote

[OpSomBlood]

152. The new DVD is spectacular.

It's what inspired the sig quote.

[taxidriver]

185. i wont be one of them. and it isnt fair to infer that gun owners

are freepers.

[greendeerslayer]

190. why stop there?

Free speech should be limited to intellectuals who own a license and can prove they actually know what they're talking about. Those speaking in public should be tested and gauged to make sure they won't say anything inflammatory or incorrect. Sounds good doesn't it?
But seriously folks, if the pen is mightier than the sword (which it often is) and Bench and his type trust the government to hand out gun licenses, why not speech licenses?
I have a suspicion that if Bench would have been alive in 1775 he would have been a tory.

[iverglas]

196. gee

"But seriously folks, if the pen is mightier than the sword (which it often is) and Bench and his type trust the government to hand out gun licenses, why not speech licenses?"

Well heavenly days, you're right! If dirt is harder than sausage on a bun, why not demand licences for selling dirt to the public? After all, we demand that people who sell sausages on a bun to the public have a licence.

Could it be because the hardness of sausages has nothing to do with whether the sale of them to the public can properly be made subject to a licence requirement?

Can it be that the mightiness of firearms (or swords) DOESN'T HAVE THE FIRST FUCKING THING TO DO WITH whether ownership of them can properly be made subject to a licence requirement?

Can it be that the reason that people who sell sausages on buns to the public must have licences is that there is a potentially serious danger to the public if there is no public control over the making of sausages on buns for public consumption? And that if people ate dirt, we would indeed require a licence to sell it?

Can it be that you are a disingenuous sophist?


"I have a suspicion that if Bench would have been alive in 1775 he would have been a tory."

I am confident that if you had been alive in 1775 you would have been exactly what you are today.

There have been demagogues willing and eager to manipulate and deceive the public for their own ends throughout human history, even if it does seem that we're more infested with them these days than ever before.

I rather suspect that if your founders & framers had known that the demagogues would one day have the electronic media and the internet from which to practice their art, they might well have considered imposing a licence requirement on speech in the public interest. That is, in the interest of having public policy decided by informed individuals honestly weighing the interests at stake -- not by deluded sheep, or dishonest worshippers of themselves and their self-interest -- and of having a nation whose public policy was in the interests of the public and its members.

You ever heard of the US Federal Communications Commission? Can you guess how many results you get if you ask Google for "federal communications commission" licence? (Oh, all right, license.) I got 163,000. I wonder what the explanation for that could possibly be ...

[iverglas]

83. Switzerland's always fun

Look at all the guns they got! And what a peaceable society it is!

Um, yeah. And shall we now examine the differences between that gun-peaceable society and the gun-violent one that is the US?

Oh look! All firearms in Switzerland are registered, and handguns in private possession are scarce as hen's teeth.

And oh look! The same is true for Canada -- and it's a pretty peaceable realm itself.

Could firearm registration and tight restrictions on access to handguns be a reason why some realms are so much more peaceable than others, even though lots of people there have firearms just like the unpeaceable realm?


.... Nooooo. It's magic. That's what it is.

[MrBenchley]

90. Wonder why "enthusiasts"

always make it seem like Switzerland hands guns out like candy to every Hans, Fritz and Otto who can wobble up to the town square?

[Romulus]

76. from the Horse's mouth

http://www.eda.admin.ch/washington_emb/e/home/legaff/Fact/gunown.html

"As a general rule, the Arms Act requires a permit for each transaction involving weapons or relevant parts of weapons purchased from an authorized gun dealer's shop. Permits for purchasing weapons are issued by the competent authorities of the Cantons, which have to ensure that the necessary legal requirements are fully met.

The selling party has to verify the absence of any legal obstacle on the buyer's side (18 years of age, absence of an apparent risk to the buyer or third persons, no entry in the Register of Convictions for Violent Crimes and Misdemeanors).

Subsequent transfers either by sale or by another transaction among private individuals have to be documented through a written contract between those individuals themselves, which they have to keep for at least ten years. (Rom - Oh, look: a gun show loophole!!) In addition, foreign nationals without a permanent residence permit in Switzerland need an authorization to purchase weapons or relevant parts of weapons from private dealers as well."

*snip*

"In addition to requiring the above-mentioned permit to purchase weapons, the Arms Act also requires a special certificate to bear arms in public. A person who requests such a permit must demonstrate that he needs to bear arms in public in order to protect himself, other persons or goods against specific risks. To obtain a permit to bear arms one also has to pass an examination on the correct handling of weapons as well as a test on legislation on the use of firearms. Permits are normally valid for a specific type of weapon and for the entire territory of Switzerland, but are limited to five years."
(Rom- look, a CCW system!!!)

*snip/More*

Babelfish (http://babelfish.altavista.com) translated the Swiss firearms laws (French:http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/514_54/index.html) to indicate that all ammo sales require registration of identity and age of ammo purchasers, nothing about what is purchased. Maybe a Francophone can double-check that.

[slackmaster]

77. Looks like Deleted Message and Ignored have stolen your thread

That'll teach you.

:freak:

[OpSomBlood]

93. I keep un-ignoring "Ignored" because I hate letting him get the last word.

Heh, that's a good nickname. I'm just going to call him "Ignored" from now on.

[FatSlob]

110. I'll do that too.

Or better yet, ignore "Ignored" completely.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

165. Dear Neverborn...

Funny you mention Muddle....guess what he was always pushing down here? That's right...that bogus "gun rights" crap.

But then this board is lousy with right wing pieces of shit that come in here to push this RKBA crap...they even boast about it on their rancid little websites. And they get tombstoned sooner or later.

[OpSomBlood]

176. It's unfortunate that you consider 40% of the US "RW pieces of shit"

I guess winning elections and furthering the Democratic cause isn't a very high priority to you.

[MrBenchley]

178. Gee, op...most gun owners are for gun control...

It's only the tiny knot of extremist loonies pushing for assault weapons...

I guess for some people playing with a popgun is more important than any issue or principle.

[OpSomBlood]

191. You have yet to define why "assault weapons" are more dangerous.

We're all waiting with baited breath.

[iverglas]

179. it's sadder still that you make such deliberate or grossly negligent

... FALSE ALLEGATIONS about another member of DU.

Doncha think?

It's unfortunate that you consider 40% of the US "RW pieces of shit"

Pieces of shit are as pieces of shit do.

Now, +/- 40% of the US population does support the vicious moron occupying their presidency, so if anybody did consider 40% of the US "RW pieces of shit" they might not be far off.

But we can really pretty much assume that this wasn't what you were basing your allegation against Benchley on, can't we? I mean, if that were what you were accusing him of doing -- calling the +/- 40% of the US population that supports George W. Bush "RW pieces of shit" -- you'd be agreeing with him, right?

But it wasn't, was it? You were accusing him of calling firearms owners "RW pieces of shit". (Do correct me if I'm wrong, and when presented with the credible alternative explanation, I'll retract that assertion immediately.) And you know, or must be deemed to know because you could only have avoided knowing it if you were truly too stupid to live, that he has never done any such thing.

There seems to be a death-wish virus hereabouts today.

[OpSomBlood]

186. ~40% of the US owns a gun.

That's the 40% I was referring to.

[iverglas]

195. do you imagine that *I* am as stupid as ...

... well, you fill in the blank.

~40% of the US owns a gun.
That's the 40% I was referring to.

I KNOW what you were referring to. I'm just amazed that you have come out and said it without hiding behind insinuation and obfuscation. Your choice.

I was talking about WHAT YOU SAID.

What you SAID, to MrBenchley, was THIS:

you consider 40% of the US "RW pieces of shit"

WE KNOW that the statement that MrBenchley considers that 40% of the US, the 40% that owns a gun, to be RW pieces of scum IS A LIE -- since despite all the opportunities that he has had to say that, HE HAS NEVER SAID IT, and has never said anything from which it can necessarily or even logically be inferred.

So now that you have clarified that the "40% of the US" that you were referring to, when you said that MrBenchley considered it to be RW pieces of scum, was the "~40% of the US <that> owns a gun", you have explained that your own statement was a statement that we know to be a lie.

Your choice, son.

[neverborn]

192. Never came down here before, but I despised Muddle everywhere else.

Am I a "right wing piece of shit", Bench?

[OpSomBlood]

174. The DU board rules on respect and civility don't seem to apply to Ignored.

It's been a mystery for a long time.

[library_max]

182. Something you have to understand

is that an awful lot of the RKBAers who post down here post practically nowhere else in DU. They have practically no interest in any liberal or progressive ideas whatsoever, and when they mention our nominee in any of their posts it is to vilify him. There are certainly exceptions to this, and I have no present reason to suspect that you are not one of those exceptions. But a lot of us pro-control regulars get awfully tired of obvious right-wingers pretending to be Democrats and progressives to excuse their presence on DemocraticUnderground. Hence a certain lack of willingness to trust the newcomer.

RKBA is, generally speaking, a Republican issue. But politics is full of issues. Either party would be very foolish not to take a big-tent approach and welcome people who generally agree with its stands and agenda even if they don't agree on every single point. What is depressing is to see the number of single-issue RKBA voters. Sure hope you're not one of those.

[library_max]

184. Oh, and hey, now that I've read the whole thread,

let me apologize on behalf of the whole forum for our two worst-behaved children (who slackmaster hilariously called "Deleted Message and Ignored") trotting out on your very first day here and showing you all their unpleasant tricks. Neither of them is typical of either side of the argument down here, no matter what any of the more eager partisans on either side try to tell you.

And to give MrBenchley his due, it IS true that guest RKBAers wander in here with some frequency and get tombstoned for being right-wingers. The fallacy is in tarring you with that same brush without any evidence to support the conclusion.

[neverborn]

193. First day in the Gungeon... will it be my last? :D

Who knows :P

[FeebMaster]

194. Run while you still can!

Don't let it suck you in!

[iverglas]

197. First day in the Gungeon... will it be your last?

Who cares?

[Wickerman]

198. magic 200 - locking

and it seems to have run course