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Station may be liable for selling gas to drunk driver

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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:03 PM
Original message
Station may be liable for selling gas to drunk driver
The Tennessee Court of Appeals has reinstated a lawsuit against a gas station filed by two victims of drunken driving.

The court ruled Gary West and Michell Richardson could sue East Tennessee Pioneer Oil Company for negligence.

An investigation concluded that employees of a Knoxville Exxon station operated by Pioneer refused to sell Brian Lee Tarver beer because he was intoxicated, but helped him pump fuel into his car.

Police say Tarver left the station with his lights off, driving in the wrong lane and crashed head-on into the car carrying West and Richardson in July, 2000.

more...
http://www.wbir.com/News/news.asp?ID=18975
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Ohio Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Was the drunk's car completely out of gas?
I mean, it crashed almost immediately after leaving. If they wouldn't have sold him the gas, wouldn't he still have left driving drunk?
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Perfect point. n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. A followup to your astute hypothetical
What if they'd refused to sell to him, he drove off, then caused a crash by running out of gas on the freeway?

Would the station then be liable for not selling him gas?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Next up, someone liable for not popping some drunk guy's tires.
Of course you'd be liable if you did pop them too, but not as much. Unless the drunk guy gets home alright.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Did they know he was drunk and the driver?
It's not a gas station's job to be a sobriety checkpoint, but if the evidnece is unambiguous that the patron is drunk AND he/she is the driver they should not be sold fuel to drive more.
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pnb Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. What?
And when the drunk driver just drove out of the station with a quarter tank instead of a full tank?

At some point, responsibility falls to the perpetrators...the drunk drivers and them only. The gas station attendants are not responsible for this nor are whoever sold them the alcohol for that matter (I'm not speaking legally but realistically).

This suit is just plain ridiculous and I would hope would go nowhere.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree with this
First the employees recognized he was drunk and didn't sell him beer. They should have also said the same thing about the gas and offered to call someone to pick him up--and then if he left they should have called the police to report him--of course this guy crashed almost immediately which seems to indicate just how drunk and dangerous he was.
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Spinzonner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Hmm, wonder if there's either

an opportunity or even an obligation for a Citizen's Arrest there.

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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Gas station attendants make about 6 bucks an hour
Edited on Fri Jul-23-04 09:22 PM by Carni
ON EDIT: I didn't realize they "helped him" pump gas into the car
(Didn't read that far) If that is the case THAT IS INCREDIBLY DUMB!
:(

and they don't get tips...furthermore half of the time they are foreign (at least in my state they are)

Would it be common sense not to sell gas to someone you won't sell beer to? Yes, of course it would be...but they aren't trained to do that (like bartenders & food service people would be)

I think it's pretty far reaching to legally hold some person working as a gas station attendant responsible for this.

I mean using this logic anyone working in a store (or for that matter any person in a public place) could make a "citizens arrest" of a person who acts drunk and that is just a little to John Ashcroft for my tastes.
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enfield collector Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. how about holding the drunk driver liable?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Naw, that makes way too much sense
:argh:
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metasphere Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. This is a ridiculous but scary case
of how out of control our civil litigation system is. Sure, it would have been the right thing to do if the gas station employees had restrained the drunken driver. But was he obligated to, or is it reasonable to expect him to? It's probably not a usual or typical situation for gas station attendants to deal with.

We really need to reform the tort system to create disincentives for frivolous lawsuits.
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vpigrad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Ridiculous?
They intentionally did the wrong thing! Why can't you sue someone for doing something wrong, especially for something that endangers the safety of the public!
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JayS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. "They intentionally did the wrong thing!"
From my perspective, they did do the wrong thing. From their perspective, I would venture to guess that they probably thought they did the right thing to not sell him anymore alcohol.

I would have called the police about a possible drunk (soon to be) driver before I helped him pump the gas, and perhaps "lose" his keys and then help him "look" for them. It isn't too hard to fool a drunk much of the time.

Generally, I will stop and check on someone that has had a minor collision to make sure they are okay and not suffering from some ailment. Quite often they are drunk, or at least appear to be. I used to give them a ride home if they appeared drunk; a long time ago that appeared to me to be the right thing to do. I now look under the car and report damage to the tie rod or something and offer to call a wrecker guy I know that can check it for free. I then call 911 and as for an officer to just happen by the scene.

Note that in one case, what appeared to me to be a drunk, due to the smell of beer, was someone that had consumed alcohol after taking a prescription medicine that specifically warned that doing so was extremely dangerous. This is something I would not have never thought of but the officers knew to check.

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. YOU
Are a rightwingnut.

GO.

AWAY.

We're NOT AS STUPID AS YOU ARE.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is why you shouldn't joke about that sort of thing.
"What's next? Holding _blank_ liable for _blank_?" It just gives them ideas.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. Corrupt Motor Fuels Industry...N/T
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skippythwndrdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
13. Who can I sue today?
Will the lawsuit insanity never stop?

Why stop with Pioneer Oil? Let's go after the automobile manufacturer and dealer for selling a potential drunk driver a car. Next comes the Tenessee DOT for issuing him a license. It's illegal to drive in TN without liability insurance, so let's add the insurnce company as a enabling entity. Hell, we may as well go after his parents for giving birth. What about whomever sold or gave him the alcohol that intoxicated him in the first place? Let's add the police: local, state and county sheriff for not being on the scene to stop him in the first place. I suppose I could go on, but-

Yes. The attendant(s) did a stupid thing by helping put the gas in his car. It's not incumbent upon anyone to attempt to restrain the rest of society from wrongdoing.
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
16. Well, apparently these idiots think money will bring their family back...
Good god, this is just a case of trying to find EVERYONE they can to blame for their family member's death except for who really should be to blame: THE DRUNK DRIVER. Oh, but he's going to prison and he's broke, so let's go after someone we can get some cash out of. Yeah. That solves EVERYTHING.
Duckie
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. just curious
Well, apparently these idiots think money will bring
their family back... Yeah. That solves EVERYTHING.


Is there some other sort of wrongful death lawsuit, or other lawsuit seeking monetary compensation for harm intentionally or negligently done (like, out of the thousands and thousands that are won in the US every year ...) in which someone's family WAS brought back ... or someone's mobility restored, or head injury cured, etc. etc.?

Is the purpose of ANY lawsuit to bring anyone back to life ... or heal their injuries, or restore their abilities ... or is it rather to obtain compensation for the loss?

Might it also be that SOME lawsuits are launched out of an altruistic desire to spare others the pain or grief or loss that resulted from someone else's negligent or intentional act, by putting people likely to engage in such negligent or intentional acts on notice that they will be liable for damage that results?

Do we not imagine, in a case like the one in this thread, that the plaintiffs would fully acknowledge, and any award they received would fully recognize, that any negligent or intentional act by these defendants was only a partial cause of the damage, and that they were only partially liable to compensate for that damage? In this case, might we not indeed expect that since the crash happened immediately after the driver left the lot, the act by the defendants would not be found to have been causal, in this particular case? But what if his tank had been nearly empty, and the crash had occurred 20 miles later?

I'm expressing no opinion on this particular case -- simply saying that it's improper to reject these plaintiffs' claim for reasons that would not be applied to anyone else's claim. No one sues in order to bring a dead person back to life, or expects that any award received will make everything okay again.

The liability question here is an interesting one, and simply can't be answered "no" out of hand.

Do vendors of any things have responsibility to the public, or to particularly vulnerable individuals?

If an individual walked into a gun shoppe and said "I need some bullets so I can go outside and shoot my spouse who's standing on the sidewalk" (or "because I'm mad as hell and not going to take any more"), should the vendor have a responsibility to refuse to sell them? If a sidewalk peanut vendor is approached by someone saying "quick, here's a buck, gimme some peanuts for my kid who's violently allergic to them", what then?

I actually had just this drunk driver / gas station situation happen a few years ago, me being a bystander to the incident. There was a bunch of guys at a self-serve station on a secondary highway, late at night, gassing up a car. Interestingly, I recall that the car contained firearms -- I believe I must have known this because the driver said that they were going hunting, and claimed that he was not drinking, when I inquired. Given the obvious pissed-drunkenness of the other men milling around, I wasn't quite prepared to rely on his statement. I asked that the station owner call the police. He refused. I used the pay phone and did so; this was a bit complicated since I was in a rural area where 911 was not yet in effect, and I had to make more than one call. Ultimately, I reached the appropriate provincial police detachment, and was told that I was not the first caller about this car and its occupants, and they were already on the lookout for them. My memory is a little dim at this point, since it was at least 10 years ago, and I'm not sure why I didn't do a little more to waylay them. I suppose it was because they were large, male, drunk and in possession of firearms ...

In that case, since it was a self-serve, pay-after-pumping station, the owner could hardly have refused to sell the gas. And nobody's liable for not calling the police, that much is for sure.

But to intentionally turn over to someone the thing s/he needs in order to carry out a clearly expressed intention to do something illegal and dangerous to the public and/or to particular vulnerable individuals, I dunno.

What social value is advanced by *not* holding such vendors liable?

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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. What kinda smart ass reply is that to my smart ass reply?
Now before you get pissed at my smart ass subject line, read, please. Liabilty, to me, makes me think of a wrongful death suit and getting money. And no, money has never brought anyone back from the dead. When people start suing everyone they can after their loved one dies, it makes me think that they are trying to get rich off their family member's death, and it makes me ill, and makes me think they believe money will bring them back. I was being a smart ass, deserved the smart ass remark from you, and completely agree with what you said.
Duckie
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. A very obvious value....
Edited on Mon Jul-26-04 12:29 PM by MrBenchley
if one is pimping for the vendors...

You'll notice the usual gang of "enthusaists" is BIG on the right wing mantra about "personal responsibility"...by which they mean nobody should ever be found responsible in court and citixens should be denied the right to seek civil redress for wrongs.
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
18. More Appeals Court Idiocy.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Is Court Idiocy...
A valid basis for appeal?
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Would be nice.
"We bring this appeal on the basis that the previous court engaged in idiocy. Your honor, those judges are fucking idiots"
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Trashman Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Were these attendants
qualified to establish that the driver was drunk. Even Doctors and police are required to perform test.
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