How to view S.1431

[FatSlob]

http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/g_three_sections_with_teasers/legislative_home.htm

type in S1431 and submit.

That is the link to the bill discussed in another, locked thread.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[Bowline]

2. This one's gonna die too.

Ain't nobody gonna touch it this year. The Democrats see this as a surefire way to lose votes. This election is gonna be a tight one and we don't need to give away even a single vote to Them.

[FatSlob]

3. Yes, it is tight, probably the tightest in decades.

Why, then, would Senator Kerry do something like this? It doesn't make political sense. Whoever advised him on this needs to be fired. Senator Kerry says that he supports hunters' rights. I believe that he will not try to restrict those rights if elected. However, he has signed on as cosponsor to a bill that could ban one of the most popular hunting shotguns in history. It wouldn't surprise me if he is completely unaware that this is a possibility.

[MrBenchley]

4. Because 70% of ALL voters support an assault weapons ban....

despite the lies of the RKBA crowd....

[Bowline]

5. Ahhh yes, the polls.

Who's polls are we quoting today? Did someone actually ask ALL voters to find out their opinion? Nobody asked me, therefore your assumption that ALL voters are represented is false.

[MrBenchley]

7. Ahh yes...the desperate attempt to pretend the polls are meaningless....

SSDD

[Bowline]

8. I believe it is you, sir, who are often fond of quoting...

"Figures can lie and liars can figure." I think we're all astute enough to know that polls can be conducted to ensure whatever outcome the pollster desires.

[MrBenchley]

9. No, I say bullshit is buillshit....

and the RKBA cause is nothing BUT bullshit from stem to stern....

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

11. And 90,000-115,000 Americans a year pay the price

"The time has come and gone for your kind Mr. Benchley."
Surrender, Dorothy!

[Romulus]

16. I'll award this in place of Iverglas

[iverglas]

18. nah, doesn't work

Appealing to the opinions of a large proportion of citizens/voters of a state as a reason to pass the legislation they want just isn't an argumentum ad populum.

Nobody's saying that their opinions are correct, or true, or right, or good.

Nobody's saying that their opinions are proof of anything, or authority for the truth of any allegation.

You see?

Democracy really isn't just one big ad populum argument.

And liberal democracy -- wherein the liberties of individuals and minorities are protected from interference at the hand of majorities -- isn't a statement that the majorities are wrong. It's just a statement they don't always get to do what they want, right or wrong, unless they have justification for doing it.

Now, you could always argue that what the majority wants to do here -- interfere in the liberties of people who want to own assault weapons, or whatever the fuck this thread is about -- is just that: an unjustified interference in the liberties of some individuals or minorities.

Of course, if that case could be made, I'd expect someone to have been making it someplace other than an internet discussion board ... like maybe a supreme court ...


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[Bowline]

6. I think the Dems wised up after 2000.

They saw that an anti-gun stance, at least a public one, is gonna cost 'em votes and this time around every vote really will be critical to winning the White House.

Like you, I believe Kerry does support hunters' rights. However, I'd like to hear him come out and say he supports the right of individuals to keep and bear arms for self defense. THAT's what the 2nd Amendment is all about, not hunting.

[goju]

12. He did say it

John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and both he and John Edwards support the Second Amendment right of law-abiding Americans to own guns.


From his site, http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/communities/

Note that he neglected to use the term militia in that statement. Never mentions militia.

[MrBenchley]

13. Yup...amd if it fools even one gun totin' yokel it's worth it...

But it's worth noting that I support the Second Amendment collective right to own guns....although if I was running for office I might soft soap the "collective" part in public....

"Note that he neglected to use the term militia in that statement."
Note that he omitted the term "individual"; that he omitted the term "self defense"; that he omiited any mention of "concealed weapon" that he specifically mentioned "banning assault weapons" and specifically mentioned "closing the gun show loophole."

[Romulus]

14. jeez, talk about spin (eom)

[goju]

15. Does it disappoint you

That he omitted the term militia?

Score one for the gun owners!

[MrBenchley]

20. Not me...

but then I'm not trying to peddle the NRA's lies.....

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[goju]

28. Show me

[MrBenchley]

Dupe

the board must be getting busy.....

[MrBenchley]

21. Trip...

[iverglas]

17. I just have to ask those questions

both he and John Edwards support the Second Amendment right of law-abiding Americans to own guns.

Can you point me to the bit in your second amendment where it says that it is the right of law-abiding USAmericans to own guns?

thank you in advance.

[goju]

19. Heres the set up, he swings.. and he hits it out of the park

Since you are on the apples and oranges bit, can you point me to where the constitution mentions voting rights for women?

thanks for soft ball

[MrBenchley]

22. More like his pants fell down as he swung and missed.....

"AMENDMENT XIX
Passed by Congress June 4, 1919. Ratified August 18, 1920.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

[goju]

23. Laugh,,, you will note the AMMENDMENT part of that

Its right at the top and starts with an A

[MrBenchley]

25. You mean as in "Second Amendment"?

Amendments are part of the Constitution here in the United States on planet Earth....even though they must not be over there in gunnutland....

[goju]

27. Pardon me, I thought she was referring to the ORIGINAL

BOR, since thats what she was referring to. You know, when they actually WROTE the 2nd? Laugh!

[Name removed]

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[goju]

30. No, in other words, I inferred she was setting up

a debate that is based on changing cultural norms. Since she wants to peg the 2nd to the exact language they used, I thought I would see how consistent she will be.

[MrBenchley]

31. Yeah, surrrrrre.....

[goju]

32. lol, yeah sure? Is that all?

Ok, thank you.

[MrBenchley]

34. Really, what else is needed?

[iverglas]

33. well this one sure went west in my absence ...

and my question never did get answered. Oh well.

But for the purposes of continuing education ...


both he and John Edwards support the Second Amendment right of law-abiding Americans to own guns.

Can you point me to the bit in your second amendment where it says that it is the right of law-abiding USAmericans to own guns?

Since you are on the apples and oranges bit, can you point me to where the constitution mentions voting rights for women?


Now at this point you've seen where you went wrong, right?

You see, you made an assertion; essentially: "there is a second amendment right of law-abiding Americans to own guns".

I questioned your assertion, by asking where in that second amendment -- the one your assertion was about -- it said that it was the right of law-abiding USAmericans to own guns.

And I try to make it easy. I UNDERLINED the important bit. And you still seem to have missed it.

I mean, frankly, I'm not even seeing where you went wrong. You just responded to my question with a complete non sequitur. I mean, unless only law-abiding USAmerican women have voting rights. (Dang, I know that's true to some extent -- but then I don't think that denying anyone, including the non-law-abiding, the right to vote is constitutionally valid anyhow.)

I just don't know what this very particular "Second Amendment right of law-abiding Americans to own guns" is, and you're just not gonna help me out, I guess.

Me, you could ask me anything at all -- like, where in your constitution does it say that women have a right to have abortions, or that you have a right to eat pizza for breakfast -- and I could tell you, snap like that.

And I know that it would be just not correct to say "constitutional right of white women to have abortions", or "constitutional right of teenaged boys to eat pizza for breakfast", because I'd be implying that somebody else didn't have that right, which is of course exactly what I think you were doing.

And then I'd have to substantiate what I'd said. Which is of course exactly what you're not doing.

[MrSandman]

35. Introduced in July, 2003...

Yeah it'll pass this session. And a good thing.

[EconGeek]

36. Bans all hunting rifles...

This was a very extreme bill. It would ban all hunting rifles, basically every semi-automatic rifle, or shotgun, and many semi-automatic pistols.

People would have to go back to designes from before 1900!