Dozens of weapons stolen

[Spoonman]

Thirty guns were stolen last month from Collector's Firearms on Fondren. Another 36 were taken from Carter's Country on Wilcrest. Officials are not saying whether the two hits are connected. The weapons are valued at $24,000.

While authorities aren't sure what the thieves plan to do with the weapons, experts say there is a demand for them on the black market.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/90203_local_weapons.html

a demand for them on the black market

Would registration and background checks prevent these firearms from ending up in the hands of criminals?

Smart gun technology would only slow them down, since the whole concept is based on programming that can be "hacked" these days by your average 15 year old.

Ballistic fingerprinting, well they might be able to say it came from a specific gun, but not who has it, and only if the thieves didn't ruff of the rifling and change the fingerprint (5 min job).

I guess we could always blame the “corrupt gun industry” seeing as they are blamed for everything else. The thieves probably contacted Winchester to get some advice on how to do the job without being caught.

Maybe we should just place blame were it belongs, on the scum that committed the crime.
We could then impose extremely harsh punishment on them, let’s say 20 years without parole, and maybe others would take notice.

Oh hell, let the criminals be, they were just trying to earn a living. Let’s blame and punish all the honest citizens of this country that believe in the RKBA by banning firearms. It's the honest citizens that are the real menace to society.

[CO Liberal]

1. MAybe There Should Be Minimum Security Requirements for Gun Dealers

Such as alarm systems with automatic dial-ups to the police, or 24-hour security guards for larger places.

The best way to eliminate the black market is to eliminate the source of supply.

[slackmaster]

2. Oh my, a supply-side economist on DU?

The best way to eliminate the black market is to eliminate the source of supply.

Yes, that really worked well for the heroin trade during those 9 or 10 years when Afghanistan produced no opium.

:eyes:

[CO Liberal]

3. There Were Other Sources of Supply

When the Afghan supply dried up, other countries were ready to take up the slack.

In order to eliminate any black market, ALL sources of supply would need to be turned off. And if that means that the law-abiding have to suffer a little bit of inconvenience in order to ensure that all gun sales are legal, then so be it.

[slackmaster]

4. There are other sources of guns besides retail stores

Granted that most guns used in crimes NOW were once upon a time in a retail store, but here in Cali we have had several major busts over the last decade of containers full (i.e. many thousands) of illegal firearms smuggled in from China and other countries. Basic market economics indicates that if one source dries up, another will grow to take its place.

Please don't take this to mean "it's pointless to do anything about it", but as with any other expenditure there will at some point be diminishing returns. Keeping known burglars in jail would help too.

[DoNotRefill]

39. How exactly would you do that?

"In order to eliminate any black market, ALL sources of supply would need to be turned off."

Nuke Eastern Europe, Asia, and South America? That would probably cut down on drugs coming from those sources, too...

[Spoonman]

5. Alarm systems

I worked at the Carter's Country store for two years after the military, and have been in Collector's several times.
Both of them have elaborate security systems with auto police contact.
The most of the Houston Police Department are regular customers of both, and respond VERY quickly to these locations when the alarm is triggered.
I have personally have witnessed this at Carter's Country.

The best way to eliminate the black market is to eliminate the source of supply.

So you do favor a total ban.
This is contradictory to some of your past statements.

Why should we sacrifice our rights to criminals?
Maybe we should ban walking in parks after dark and ski masks as well.

What is so wrong with placing blame where it belongs, on the individual who commits the crime.

[slackmaster]

6. HERESY!

What is so wrong with placing blame where it belongs, on the individual who commits the crime.

What's the matter with you? Everyone knows it's all Microsoft's fault when anyone commits a crime.

Get a Mac. Or a Linux box.

Wait a minute, this is J/PS.

Never mind.

[CO Liberal]

7. Huh?

The best way to eliminate the black market is to eliminate the source of supply.

So you do favor a total ban.

How the hell did you reach THAT conclusion???

[Spoonman]

9. Your words

The best way to eliminate the black market is to eliminate the source of supply.

How else is one to take this?

Eliminate the supply of guns = ban.

What did you mean by eliminate the source of supply?

I guess we could look at it from another perspective.

What supplies the black market? Thieves, correct?
So you agree we should eliminate thieves. If so, I agree.
If that is your position, then great. Let us quit arguing about guns being the problem and address the real issue, the criminals.
Write your congressional representative and insist that we start punishing criminals severely.

20 years for any offense committed with a firearms at hard labor and no parole.

Life at hard labor without parole for all but 1st degree murder.

Death penalty for 1st degree murder with limited appeals when DNA proof is verified, and no appeals for confessions or when caught in the act.
Standard appeals process for all others.

[CO Liberal]

10. To Eliminate the Source of Supply.....

...you make it harder to steal or smuggle guns.

You stiffen the punishments for engaging in this sort of activity.

You do NOT need to confiscate all guns.

Your pro-gun paranoia is showing, Spoonman....................

[Spoonman]

12. Finally

Your pro-gun paranoia is showing, Spoonman

Who said that??? <snicker>

Your first statement was misunderstood by me, not a paranoid reaction.

you make it harder to steal

I agree, I fully believe in your security aspect of the issue.

Both these places were VERY secure, Collectors has a steel plate gate that covers thier entrance.

I'll see if I can find out how the crooks got in.

[jody]

32. CO you say "You stiffen the punishments for engaging in this

sort of activity."

We already have stiff federal penalities subject to judicial application, see TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > Sec. 924. - Penalties

Your position seems identical to that of Asscroft who is blacklisting and intimidating federal judges who do not give a person convicted of violating one of the federal gun laws the maximum penalty? :shrug:

[DoNotRefill]

38. Uh huh...

"...you make it harder to steal or smuggle guns. You stiffen the punishments for engaging in this sort of activity."

That sure as shit eliminated this nation's drug problem, didn't it? So, CO, where would we put the additional 1/4 of a million prisoners?

[BullDozer]

34. Security thoughts

MAybe There Should Be Minimum Security Requirements for Gun Dealers
Such as alarm systems with automatic dial-ups to the police, or 24-hour security guards for larger places.

Regarding alarms systems, there was a recent gun shop burglary in this area, the alarm went off, police showed up checked doors and windows, and went on their merry way. Store staff shows up a little later and finds the hole in the roof that the crooks came in through and left via taking their loot with them.

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?c=1&slug=wades27m&date=20030827&query=wades (sorry you have to register to read it)

Just after midnight last Wednesday, Bellevue police responded to ...., after the store's alarm went off. Officers left after ensuring the store's doors and windows were locked. Around 2 a.m., store employees called police after discovering someone had broken in through a rooftop air-duct cover, smashed a display case and taken the guns, Chiu said.

I used to work in the alarm and bank security equipment field, alarms are easy to deal with, or the crooks just move fast enough that they are gone before anyone responds (my alarm company had a rash of chain drugstore break-ins that involved a trashcan or newspaper box through a front window and a snatch and run of their cigarette racks in and out with the goods in far less than two minutes as later installed cameras showed.), and even a typical bank vault is only a 30 minute job to enter via a nondestructive method (i.e. not blowing a big hole in the thing) it's even faster if you don't care about making a lot of commotion. I've worked in private security too you're lucky if one guard per shift would even notice if the site caught fire.

Alarms are a good thing, they help keep the amateur crooks away, grated windows are important too. Anything that slows a criminal down or will help make their presence noticeable is a deterrent but if they are serious about getting in they will do it.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spoonman]

11. Gun-a-phobia is alive and still horseshit

DE PLANE, DE PLANE……Welcome to gun o phobic fantasy solution island.

By the way, these guns sure were a big deterrant to crime, weren't they?

Had they been in the hands of Bill Carter or his daughter, you bet they would have prevented this crime, and generated some business for the local funeral home.

Guns don't prevnt crime, law abiding property owners with a gun prevent crime.

You still seem to have trouble realizing a gun is an inanimate object.

auto registration and licensing

Vehicles are driving on public roads, and pay registration for maintenance of those roads. The registration number is proof that the particular vehicle registration has been paid.

Yea, registration sure does prevent all those drunk driving fatalities each year.

Licensing? Drivers licensing is an established method to demonstrate the proven ability to operate a vehicle, and identification of the individuals record of operation. It is also used as proof of identification.

How on earth would firearms licensing have prevented this crime?
Do you mean licensing criminals?!

I would venture to guess thousands of cars are stolen annually by licensed drivers.

Ballistic fingerprinting information would be useless for these weapons, because nobody knows who stole them!

The ballistic fingerprint of a firearm is only accurate for a short period, and is subject to change VERY easily.

Even when presented with examples of corruption

You have NEVER posted any evidence of this.

They lobby and pursue legal channels to protect their interests the same as the AARP and thousands of other industries and organizations.

By your standards, the AARP is corrupt because they lobby to keep the transporting of prescription drugs across the border from Mexico to Texas by the elderly un-enforced.

[MrBenchley]

13. Gee spoon...

"Had they been in the hands of Bill Carter or his daughter"
They WERE in their hands...and somebody stole them....

"You still seem to have trouble realizing a gun is an inanimate object."
I got no problem with that...it's the RKBA crowd that thinks it's some magic totem.

"Yea, registration sure does prevent all those drunk driving fatalities each year."
So what are you saying, spoon? That you think that drivers ought to be UNlicensed and cars DEregistered?

"The ballistic fingerprint of a firearm is only accurate for a short period, and is subject to change VERY easily. "
Surrrrrrrrrrre....every punk a metallurgist...

"Even when presented with examples of corruption
You have NEVER posted any evidence of this."
The hell I haven't. And you should know...you've sure done enough screaming in rage when it was presented, spoon.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

14. You don't have to be a metallurgist

You don't have to have a metallurgy doctorate to change the rifling of a gun barrel, all you have to do is SHOOT THE THE GUN!

Do you need a metallurgy degree to figure out that the friction between a copper or steel clad bullet travelling down a rifle barrel at Mach 2 or Mach 3 with no lubrication will cause scoring on both the bullet and the barrel? Would it not be just a small matter to also assume that repeating the above scenario would wear down the barrel enough to change the markings on a bullet? (i.e. sharp rifling marks versus no-so-sharp rifling marks?) Or you can use an abrasive paste (JB bore paste comes to mind) to take the edges of the rifling in a few minutes.

You don't have to be a metallurgist, just have a passing familiarity with how a firearm works, coupled with the knowledge that:

1. metal on metal contact causes wear on both surfaces.

and

2. abrasive on metal contact causes wear on the metal surface.

It's really not that difficult.

[MrBenchley]

15. Tell us another fairy tale

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/08/03/old.murder.mystery/

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

18. From your link

The gun was the same type used to kill Orner, and detectives were able to prove that Freiburger bought the gun in a Columbia pawn shop the day before the slaying.

Ok, so we can assume this wacko didn't try to alter the BF. He only bought it the day before. He could have, but abviously didn't because 39 years later, ballisticians were able to link his gun to the bullet recovered from a body. Simply amazing! given both pieces of the puzzle with no alteration that a ballastician could make BF work! They knew

1. Whose possesion the gun was in after the murder.

2. Were able to reproduce the markings of the bullet from subsequent firings.

This is a much different setting that trying to match a lone bullet to an unrecovered firearm somewhere, wouldn't you agree? In fact this latter system is in place in Maryland, where it has not solved a single, solitary crime shooting. Quite effective.

This leaves us with acknowledging that there are two methods of BF:

1. The gun is recovered and ballisticians fire test rounds to duplicate the markings of the evidence bullet.

2. Bullet markings and brass case markings from newly manufactured firearms are stored in a database. When a criminal shooting occurs, the bullet recovered from the victim is matched against the database and if all works well lists the name and address of the owner.

The method you cite is the same method that the BATF uses; matching recovered weapons to shots fired. Assuming the recovery was within a short enough time frame from the shooting, the BF could easily be matched. Were the gun not recovered, or the BF altered on the weapon from, say, 1,000 rounds of practice ammo then the BF may well not match conclusively. The ATF is not even 100% on their rate of match.

So how exactly would the stolen guns above be matched to anyone? They won't, not including the fact that Maryland's ballistics fingerprinting database has solved exactly 0 crimes using the #2 method.

[MrBenchley]

23. Peddle it to someone dumb enough to care

"They won't, not including the fact that Maryland's ballistics fingerprinting database has solved exactly 0 crimes using the #2 method. "
Proof?

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

26. Proof?

The guns were STOLEN, as in no record of sale. How would a Maryland style BF database track those guns to anyone? They don't have a known owner. Do I need to provide a link to prove this? Isn't it obvious?

[MrBenchley]

27. Jeeze, it was spoon who dragged the MD database

into this....not me. I'm just jeering at the general paranoia and hysteria....and your claim that the database is useless.

Funny how hard the gun industry is beating the drums against this.

[Spoonman]

28. Don't drop the ball and run now

Your the one who proclaims "Ballistic Fingerprinting" would some how solve and prevent crime.
Yes I "dragged the MD database" to demonstrate how wrong you are.

"Paranoia and hysteria" are monopolized by the anti-RKBA movement, as demonstrated by the beating of the useless "fingerprinting" drum.

[MrBenchley]

29. Not going anywhere.....

"Yes I "dragged the MD database" to demonstrate how wrong you are."
And instead all you showed is how desperate the RKBA crowd is.

[acerbic]

30. You're absolutely right:

"Paranoia and hysteria" are monopolized by the pro-RKBA movement

I agree totally.

[MrBenchley]

31. Consider this peach of a thread

Hard to get much sillier....but then I thought that was true before the "guns for the blind" kick the RKBA crowd got onto, too....

[Spoonman]

19. Another fairy tale

of the gun o phobic crowd.

First off - CNN now who's pimping right wing shit?

Facts:
Edward Freiburger bought the pistol one day prior to shooting the victim.

Three weeks later a Tennessee state trooper arrested Edward Freiburger
who was in possession of a pistol.

Initial ballistics tests were inconclusive

Advances in ballistic testing were now able to tie Freiburger to the murder.

Edward Freiburger did not know of these advances at the time of the murder

Highly probable:
Edward Freiburger did nothing to alter the "fingerprint" because he knew nothing of this technology.

Edward Freiburger did not shoot a few hundred rounds through the pistol.

YouR story, which I saw on A&E, does not demonstrate the failing of the system you think will deter or solve future crimes.

It would cost billions of dollars, it’s riddled with inaccuracy, and you don't always have a bullet to compare with.

The casings, hell go to a gun range and pick up a few of the same caliber, drop them at the crime scene and watch an innocent person get arrested.

The ballistic testing is very good at solving crime once it has been committed, and evidence has been gathered, but it falls way short of the grand solution you try to say it is.
Maybe some day it will get to were it needs to be, but it ain’t there yet.

[MrBenchley]

24. CNN right wing?

Go peddle this rubbish to the dimwits at highroadrage.com, spoon.

[Superfly]

17. Or, just don't clean the thing for a while

powder residue is hydroscopic...it attracts moisture. So, all a crook has to do is use the thing in a crime once, never clean it, and the ballistic fingerprint will be altered the next time due to rust, grime, etc.

B

[Spoonman]

20. Gee Fly

Don't cloud the issue with FACTS!!!

[shatoga]

36. or

dip a bore brush in acid,
clean it repeatedly.

use another (stainless 'toothbrush') brush to 'clean' the ejector and firing pin.

Ballistic fingerprints are BS and always have been.
"Evidence" presented in court is manufactured testilying.


Perfect crime?
Cop or prosecutor kills the victim.
system knowingly convicts an innocent
to cover up.

That's why up to one-third of people in prison are innocent of the crime they got convicted of.

eg: a pot dealer in Phoenix who got framed for two child murders.

Every time an innocent goes to jail...
The guilty person walks the streets, free to kill again & again.

Careful when you buy a hot gun!
It could be planting 'evidence' by making you the patsy.

[Spoonman]

16. DE PLANE, DE PLANE

Welcome to another exciting episode of

Gun o Phobic Fantasy Island

They WERE in their hands

No they were not, the stores were closed, and this is just another one of your spinning fantasies.

I got no problem with that

It’s pretty obvious that you do.

drivers ought to be UNlicensed and cars DEregistered

You know damn well that's not the point being made, so quit trying to side track the point by spinning it of into another something it's not fantasy.

Plain and simple:

Registration of cars and licensing of drivers do not prevent criminal acts committed by drivers that are licensed and vehicles that are registered.

Registration of guns and licensing of gun owners will not stop crimes commtted by criminals.

Surrrrrrrrrrre....every punk a metallurgist

I guess you are an expert, not!!

<snip>

Maryland and New York already require ballistic fingerprinting. It hasn't helped convict a single criminal. And there isn't likely to be success any time soon, according to California's study.

The report included the test firing of more than 2,000 rounds from 790 pistols.

When cartridges from the same manufacturer were test-fired and compared, computer matching failed 38 percent of the time. With cartridges from different manufacturers, computer matching failed 62 percent of the time.

"Automated computer matching systems do not provide conclusive results," requiring that "potential candidates be manually reviewed," said the experts.

But the experts estimated a California database would increase about 108,000 entries every year for pistols alone. "This study indicates that this number of candidate cases will be so large as to be impractical and will likely create logistic complications so great that they cannot be effectively addressed," they said.

The test-firing results only scratch the surface of ballistic fingerprinting's problems.

Lockyer's experts concluded it's unknown whether cartridges fired after typical firearm break-in and wear can at all be matched to the cartridge fired when the gun was new.

"Firearms that generate markings on cartridge casings can change with use and can also be readily altered by the users," said the experts. "They are not permanently defined like fingerprints or DNA."

<snip>

Anti-gun activists fog debate by claiming a July 2001 report from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms found computerized ballistic fingerprints produced 8,800 ballistics matches with 17,600 crime scenes during 2000-2001.

But the ATF report involves standard matching of crime scene evidence with post-crime ballistic testing - quite different from comparing crime scene with pre-sale ballistics.

http://www.cato.org/research/articles/milloy-021022.html

Welcome to reality island

The hell I haven't

Your right, you haven't, not even close!

[acerbic]

21. This thread is stupid.

Looks like the "point" is that because criminals can steal guns, the "law abiding gun owners" must be allowed to sell guns to criminals freely. Well, it makes about as much sense as all the other "pro-RKBA logic" spewed here... :eyes:

[Spoonman]

22. Yea surrrrre,

about as much sense as the fantasy solutions of the gun o phobics, and their unrealistic interpretation of the Bill of Rights.

This thread is stupid, I know you are but what am I, I’m rubber your glue what ever you say, bounces off me and sticks to you.

Got any more adult comments with relevance to the underlying implications of the topic?

[MrBenchley]

25. Amazing, isn't it?

How desperate is the RKBA crowd? REALLY desperate.

[iverglas]

33. lemme ask just one more time

"Maybe we should just place blame were it belongs, on the scum that committed the crime."

Blame for what? Guns being stolen?

WHO EVER suggested that the blame for this lay anywhere other than on the people who do the stealing?

I've always said -- I just don't give a crap who gets his/her guns stolen. Get better locks, or insurance, or eat the loss. I don't care. Blame whomever you like for any of it. I don't waste my time on blame, and I can't think what earthly purpose any discussion of "who's to blame" for ANYTHING serves.

What I care about is what is done with those guns after they get stolen. Like their being used to kill and cause harm.

And again, I don't give a shit about "who's to blame" for that. What I care about is the killing and harming -- and the possibility that they could be PREVENTED.

"Blaming" someone -- anyone -- is not going to have a nanoiota of effect on that.

"We could then impose extremely harsh punishment on them, let’s say 20 years without parole, and maybe others would take notice."

Maybe they would. You got any evidence to support that theory?

Me, I'm just not satisfied with one "maybe" as a solution to a problem WHEN THERE ARE OTHER POSSIBLE, and possibly more effective solutions, to the problem.

Once again, THE PROBLEM is not firearms being stolen. THE PROBLEM is people being harmed and killed with firearms.

If I, or any intelligent person, wants to address THAT PROBLEM, I'm going to try to come up with some way of actually PREVENTING the harm, not sit around in my darkened living room looking for someone to blame for it.

"Let’s blame and punish all the honest citizens of this country that believe in the RKBA by banning firearms. It's the honest citizens that are the real menace to society."

You can blame and punish anyone that takes your fancy. No concern of mine. If you choose to misrepresent what anyone else does or says, or why s/he does or says it, in the process, why that's just between you and your conscience.

.

[shatoga]

35. a favorite gun of mine was police confiscated from Black Panthers

In a 1967 raid on the Phx black panthers HQ...
cops seized dozens of guns.
I bought some from the trunk of one cop's car.

That black market?
"In my experience" has included:
Cops selling seized guns...
National Guardsmen selling gov't issue machineguns and hand grenades
employees of firearms manufacturers selling "lunchbox" non serial numbered handguns.
Home machinists manufacturing weapons.
Class III registered gun owners' names and addresses sold by the BATF to thieves;
who have resold the machine guns to anyone with the money.
Right wing militia members who have "collected" weapons from sleeping National Guard sentries during a Guard weekend.

It's far easier and cheaper to buy a gun on the black market than from a gun show.
At gun shows they call the BATF for approval before handing a gun over.
A crooked cop in the parking lot can sell the same gun for less money with no paperwork.

(After one shooting- I was told my non-serial numbered (Ruger) gun was illegal.
I took a number & letter stamp set and stamped a number on the gun.
It's in the next room in my gun safe right this minute.
Cops returned the gun to me after the Grand Jury twice refused to indict me for justifiable self-defense.

[iverglas]

37. yeah

After one shooting- I was told my non-serial numbered (Ruger) gun was illegal.
I took a number & letter stamp set and stamped a number on the gun.
It's in the next room in my gun safe right this minute.
Cops returned the gun to me after the Grand Jury twice refused to indict me
for justifiable self-defense.

After my father's car was struck in Florida by a car driven by a woman who had no driver's licence and no insurance, the cop wrote her tickets for the two offences and watched her drive away. Told my open-mouthed Canadian father that he couldn't stop an unlicensed driver from driving an uninsured car.

One hell of a weird country ya got there.

.

[shatoga]

40. One hell of a weird country ya got there.

Yeah.

The wierdest part of is is the peoples' (bananna) republic of "florida

Known locally as "Bushylvania'

Where the government works overtime to piss people off via continual injustice.

Your dad should have told them "I don't vote" and they might have served him better.


The letter of the law is sooo much more important than the spirt of the law.

In bushylvania it matters most: Are you connected to anyone with influence?

answer NO "you're shafted" answer YES "everything goes your way"

Get the point?

Canadians like David Letterman can literally get away with murder.

Not connected to the rich and powerful?
You lose! (the amerikan way)

Want to really hit bottem?
"Drive while black" in New Jersey.


You can even get the death penalty for that offense.
Search for "Hurricane Carter"

[acerbic]

41. What fresh delusion is this:

Canadians like David Letterman can literally get away with murder.

?