Sinple, stupid ballistics question that's been bugging me.

[6th Borough]

I shoulda took physics. Shooting a gun for the first time in over...damn...must've been a decade now...might help, but anyways...

Does recoil affect the accuracy of the first shot from a gun, or only subsequent shots? Does the bullet leave the barrel of a gun fast enough to "beat" the effect of recoil?

I'm sure I look like an ass for posting this. :silly:

[Lefty48197]

1. That's a good physics/gun question

I don't know the answer but it's a good question. I'm guessing that the bullet leaves the barrel so fast that the recoil has no effect, but I'm no Isaac Newton LaPierre, you know.

[Speck Tater]

2. Think action/reaction

As soon as the slug begins to move the recoil begins. So recoil starts while the slug is still in the barrel. However, the slug has far less mass that the rest of the rifle so there is usually very little motion by the time the slug reaches the end of the barrel.

Super-accurate target rifles have very thick barrels to add mass to minimize recoil and improve accuracy.

[kixot]

3. Not really a clear question but I'll give it a shot.

Since the recoil effect is a direct result of the bullet being launched it would be safe to assume that recoil can impact accuracy on every firing. I believe Newton's third law covers this.

[jody]

4. Yes, recoil affects accuracy but the amount depends on many factors

primarily the energy of the bullet and mass of the firearm. To demonstrate the effect, place a handgun on a table with the barrel pointed at a close target. Then devise a process to fire the handgun without disturbing the gun and then observe how the gun begins to move before the bullet leaves the barrel.

:-)

[6th Borough]

7. Thanks...

I assume a single supersonic bullet shot from a snub-nosed .22 pistol, if aimed exactly at a target (with no other variables involved) would therefore have a higher chance of hitting the target dead on then would a sabot shell from a sawed off 12 gauge shotgun...right?

When a question pops into my head that I can't answer myself definitively, it drives me nuts.

Maybe it will help if I put the question in a real-life situation...the situation I was thinking of that got me wondering about this.

You're at a target range with a pistol. Instead of holding the gun using the proper grip, you hold it limp-wristed while you fire one shot at a small part of a human paper target, such as the head. Assuming there is no wind and your aiming is absolutely perfect, will it hit the target where it was aimed?

If you're wondering why the hell I'm going nuts over this, it's because it was a "while falling asleep/in a twilight zone" thought. I should have taken sleeping pills :hangover:

[jody]

10. A bullet from a "snub-nosed .22 pistol", I presume you mean .22 rim fire

would be subsonic. The speed of sound is about 1,150 fps at sea level and a .22 RF Long Rifle from a 26" barrel would be about 1,150 fps. The velocity from a snub nosed pistol, i.e. a semi-automatic and not a revolver, would be in the 700-800 fps range. A sawed off shotgun, i.e. a barrel less than 18 inches, would have a velocity perhaps less than 1,200 fps. The shotgun has more mass than a pistol and a .22 bullet is perhaps.45 to 55 grs versus a 12 gauge load of 1 1/8 oz or 492 grs. One would need more specifications before making a definitive comparison between the two.
:-)

[teryang]

5. The effect on accuracy after first shot

...is usually caused by barrel lift, at least on a handgun. The sights are taken off the target and re-sighting needs to be done. The less the barrel lift, controlled by grip, compensators (if any), muzzle mass, etc., the easier to get sights back on target. The better accuracy of the first shot is caused by having no motion moment on the gun while trying to sight.

In terms of effect on the bullet while its moving down barrel, I think this is the same on every shot, potentially, if you keep the same grip and sight the gun exactly the same by waiting for the momentum from recoil and recovery vectors to end.

[-..__...]

6. On a semi-auto/full-auto the effect would be more pronounced..

than on a bolt action rifle or revolver. The slide, bolt (or bolt carrier), would be beginning it's rearward travel before the bullet left the barrel.

[6th Borough]

8. I was wondering how it would effect a handgun, really.

I own 2 guns. A Marlin tube fed (6 shot) lever action repeating rifle manufactured a while ago...no later than 1972, and a Winchester bolt-action, mag fed .22 rifle that's probably even older. Hell, I can't even remember the caliber of the Marlin(just that it makes a damn big boom :D)... 45/70 or 30-30 Winchester, I think...gotta dig deep in my closet to find the old boxes of ammo I still have.

Never have I shot a handgun in my life. That's (partly) why I'm puzzled.

[-..__...]

9. Probably negligible on a handgun.

But, introducing even the most imperceptible movement between the time the trigger breaks and the bullet leaves the barrel (locktime), will have some effect on accuracy.

As far as rifles are concerned...

I've read (could be BS, but I doubt it), about world class benchrest shooters who use yoga techniques to control their breathing and know when to take their shot in between heartbeats.

[jody]

11. Don't knock mental preparation, it works if one is serious about winning

matches or setting records. :-)

[-..__...]

13. Far from that.

I wish I had that sort (level), of dedication or involvement.

Time, money and to some degree location (must be nice to just step off your back porch and have a wide open range or even 50' to the berm to practice on).

I do some upper body weight lifting; nothing heavy or serious. No question that it aids and improves my shooting skills.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

12. Recoil does act on the weapon

before the round exits the barrel. Whether or not it will affect accuracy depends on several factors as mentioned above. However, the most important factor is the consistancy of the shooter. It's much easier to observe the effect the shooter has with a rifle than with a pistol, as a pistol has less effect of recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Basically it boils down to this: you must grip, hold, push, pull and deal with recoil the same exact way every time. Ideally, the firearms will act the same way with each shot, so the variable is the shooter (we'll leave internal ballistics and barrel harmonics out of the discussion for simplicity). So what you need to pay attention to is:

- Are you achieving the same grip on the pistol every time? If your grip changes, the pistol can pivot along a slightly different axis.

- Is your trigger finger meeting the trigger in the proper manner every time? A bad pull on the trigger can allow the pistol to "torque" or yaw in the hand during firing.

- Are you anticipating recoil? You'll sometimes see a shooter with a 6 shot revolver try to fire a "seventh shot" and push the gun down anticipating recoil when the hammer falls on the empty chamber. You will not push the same every time, so learn to take the recoil impulse.

These are just some of the things that can happen during recoil that will affect the point of impact for every round fired.

[happyslug]

14. Depends on what you mean by "First Shot"

The problem is NOT the recoil but how your body is reacting to the recoil. In a perfect situation when a weapon is fired it will go straight back. This can be seen in the operation of Machine Guns in a Tripod. In such tripoded machine guns the recoil in STRAIGHT BACK with no up and to the right movement. In Shouldered operated automatic weapons, when fired in the automatic mode, the weapon's "fire" will be up and to the Right (if you are right handed, left if you are left handed) of the shooter. This is NOT the result of the recoil but your body's reaction to the Recoil and your body's attempt to get the weapon back to where it was when the weapon was first fired.

Remember in a triponded Machine gun, the recoil is controlled by the tripod NOT your body. With shoulder operated automatic weapons this is rarely the case for most times (and if you follow proper gun safety rules ALL TIMES) the weapon will be fired when it is in your hand. Thus you are talking not of the recoil itself BUT YOUR BODY'S REACTION TO THE RECOIL.

For example in the Automatic mode when the first round is fired the weapon will push back wards, your body will react to this recoil to put the weapon back where it was. In this process your body will over react thus you have the up and to the Right movement phenomenon. The greater the recoil of the weapon the greater the movement up and to the right. For example the M1918 BAR of WWI was designed to be fired no more than three shoots in the Automatic mode, for by the third shoot you were already shooting to high. The Thompson Submachine guns (and other submachine guns) could operate in burst of 8-9 rounds before the weapon was shooting into the sky.

In semiautomatic Weapons and manual operated weapons the fire rate is so low that the body can fully react to the recoil and the weapon will have been returned to the original firing positions before the second round is fired (Thus semi-automatic Mode fire is more effective than Full Automatic modes of operations in most combat situations).

With pistols you have the additional problem that the weapon is interacting with your body on one one spot (your hand) unlike rifles and shotguns where your body interacts with the weapon in three spots (Remember a Rifle or shotgun is fired when it is in BOTH of your hands AND the stock is in your shoulder, the THREE points of weapon-body interaction for a Rifle or Shotgun).

Given the one spot interaction, pistols are harder to control than rifles and shotguns and thus the recoil-body effect is more severe (this is compensated by the much weaker rounds most pistols fire, compared to Rifle caliber ammunition).

Thus the problem is NOT the recoil, but your body's reaction to that recoil and how this interaction plays out when firing subsequent rounds. In most situation given the time needed for your body to react to the recoil you are better operating any shouldered weapon in the Semi-automatic mode.

One comment on "Full-Automatic" pistols. Such pistols have been around since 1900 and have been generally ineffective. The up and to the right movement is even more severe in such weapons (and to correct this movement was the chief reason for the development of the submachine gun, a weapon capable of effective automatic fire with pistol ammunition).