Which of these ideas would be best...

[RoeBear]

...teaching children gun avoidance, teaching them gun safety, ignore the whole issue or some other plan that I haven't considered?


Which is most likely to save the most lives?

[Maple]

1. Gun safety

.

[alexwcovington]

2. Safety

[Blue_State_Elitist]

3. avoidance

There's no reason for the average Joe to have a gun. I don't and I'm living to talk about it.

[Ergotron]

38. There certainly IS a reason for the average Joe to have a gun...

it's called the right of self defense. You have a right to defend your home and your family...what will you do when the armed criminals come after you and yours?

P.S. could you please post this sign in the front window of your house, or perhaps in your yard? Thank you.

[Pert_UK]

40. OMG! When will those guys be here??!?!?!?!?!?! I must get a gun!

"what will you do when the armed criminals come after you and yours?"

I think that should read "What will you do IF..........?"

I had no idea that it was inevitable that all US homes suffer unwanted, armed invasions......It sure must suck to live there.

I think I'll stick to countries where you can choose not to own a gun and still face only a statistically tiny risk of being the victim of a violent assault.

I still cannot comprehend the idea that people are apparently HAPPY that the government has to allow them to own guns just so that they have a smaller risk of being killed in their own homes.

How come people say, "Look how free I am - I am allowed to keep and bear arms to defend myself!" rather than, "It sure sucks that I have to own a gun to defend myself"?

[Ergotron]

41. Sometimes the crime DOES come to you...like it or not.

Even if you avoid dangerous, high-crime areas, sometimes crime comees to you.

A few months ago I was in a "good" area of town, walking to my car with my wife after seeing a movie. As we approached our car we noticed two men sitting on a curb nearby. One of the men got up, approached us and asked us for "some change or a couple of dollars" so he could "get back home". When I told this man I didn't have anything to give him, he produced a knife from inside his coat and insisted that I hand over my wallet and car keys to him. Also, at this time, his 'friend' got up off of the curb and walked toward the two of us. This is where it gets interesting...for him at least. He showed me his knife again, and I then showed him my everpresent Taurus .45 and asked him, none to politely, to drop the knife. His 'friend', meanwhile, was circling around behind me...where he was introduced to my wife's .32 auto. Both "gentlemen" were kind enough at that point to drop their weapons and, as they turned to leave, ran headlong into an off duty police officer who happened to see what had transpired. He also had a pistol out and pointed at the guy with the knife...Long story short, the two "panhandlers" went BACK to jail for another of their many visits, and my wife and I went home to our children...alive and uninjured.

Just because you live in a "good" neighborhood with no gang members or other criminals doesn't mean you will never face them..on their terms.

One important note: If you are going to own and carry a firearm it is IMPERATIVE that you get proper training in it's safe and legal use. Your life, or that of your loved ones, may someday depend on it.

[Rick Newland]

43. You dont have a choice

"I think I'll stick to countries where you can choose not to own a gun and still face only a statistically tiny risk of being the victim of a violent assault." I don't understand your arguement.

[1a2b3c]

4. My parents tried the avoidance with drugs.

Look what happened. I vote safety.

[dofus]

5. Safety, however I'm not sure just how you do that

in a household without guns. Like mine.

[CO Liberal]

6. Teach Gun Avoidance WITHOUT Eddie Eagle

"Joe Camel With Feathers".

[Axman]

20. I used to think the same thing...

Until I attended an Eddie Eagle class. The line, "Joe Camel with Feathers" is pure bullshit. It's garbage like that which is why we will never get any reasonable gun control established. We've played into the gunners hands with these buzz words. While we've thought that we were clever with them, we've been laughed at and scorned.

We need to stop these kinds of outright lies if we want to achieve anything meaningful. As long as these kinds of catch phrases are used and especially the ones that have no merit in fact, we will LOSE.

[slackmaster]

25. Yes, the lies do more harm than good

When I was a teenager some of us figured out that the authorities were lying to us about marijuana. Some of us assumed that they were lying about other drugs as well, so we had a rash of cocaine problems for a while.

Every time someone tries to perpetuate the "kop killer bullet" myth or "Joe Camel with feathers" it gives the far right an opportunity to point out that someone is being less than truthful.

All sides should stick to the facts and eschew propaganda.

[CO Liberal]

28. We'd Be Better Off Eschewing Eddie Eagle

And anything else connected with the Nuts Ruining America until they stop supporting our political enemies.

[slackmaster]

29. And use WHAT instead?

Most parents are unqualified to teach gun safety.

[MrBenchley]

31. Kids, stay away from guns

Was that so hard?

[Spentastic]

32. If that statement is demonstrably true

Then surely most parents should be disqualified from owning guns.

:)

[slackmaster]

34. Most of them are disqualifed from owning guns

Because they have chosen not to own them. I respect that choice.

[Axman]

37. I don't hate the NRA...

Hate is a waste of time and energy, I do disagree with their stance on almost every issue though. The Eddie Eagle program is a benefit for children. No matter how you feel about the NRA, don't dismiss a genuinely good thing they have just out of spite.

[MrBenchley]

26. Sounds good to me

[jody]

27. CO, I read very carefully every handout used in the Eddie Eagle program

The acronym NRA is used a few times, perhaps 5 times, to state copyright rights in very small inconspicuous places. The lesson plan encourages using a law enforcement officer in parts of the presentation and the handouts uses an African American female police officer in the pictures.

I know you don't like the NRA, however if you or anyone else came up with a gun safety program for very young kids, you would end up almost exactly with the Eddie Eagle program. Is it possible for you to set aside your hatred of the NRA and evaluate the program objectively?

If so, then I will mail you copies of the material and you can report your objections back to this forum .

[CO Liberal]

30. Sorry, Jody - No Can Do

I would like nothing more than the immediate demise of the NRA. My hatred for them knows no bounds, similar to my hatred for the Promise Keepers, Focus on the Family, Westboro Baptist Church, Christian Coalition, The 700 Club, the Republican Party, and all other similar piece-of-shit organizations.

I know this may sound emotion-based and irrational to some, but that's my position and I'm sticking with it.

[jody]

33. OK CO, looks like you and I have the same groups on our list. Now

to return to the issue. The Eddie Eagle program is effective and you don't like it apparently because it is sponsored by the NRA.

Assuming we both agree that a safety program for young kids is important, who do you propose offer the program?

P.S. Thanks a lot for letting Dobson visit Montgomery and Roy's Rock. We don't need any more Colorado Springs favors, thank you, very much! :evilgrin:

[CO Liberal]

35. If It Were Up To Me, Dobson Wouldn't Go Anywhere

He's be in chains at the SuperMax outside Florence, CO - home of the Unabomber, former home of Timothy McVeigh.

I believe the only reason the NRA developed the Eddie Eagle program was to get good PR. I say deny them the PR. A similar program from an organization without a political axe to grind would be far better.

[Pert_UK]

7. Loaded question........

One of the problems being that in teaching gun safety you are also introducing your kids to guns and making guns a familiar, "casual" object.

My personal opinion is that you should teach your kids a healthy respect for guns if they are likely to come into contact with them, but not automatically assume that they will become involved with them.

There's a difference between teaching "awareness" and teaching "safety" IMHO.

Without equating the two in any way, consider drugs - you'd tell your kids about the dangers of drugs and try to persuade them to stay away from them. You wouldn't teach them how to jack-up heroin in the safest possible way.

With guns, you might want to teach them that guns can be dangerous - to start teaching them about clearing the chamber, not pointing the gun at someone even if they're "SURE" it's not loaded etc. has automatically drawn them into contact with guns. That COULD encourage them to experiment by themselves.

Sure, as the kid gets older and shows an interest in hunting / target shooting, THEN teach gun safety.

[slackmaster]

9. Gun safety IS knowing the danger, how to clear them, etc.

I find it interesting that you would separate:

...clearing the chamber, not pointing the gun at someone even if they're "SURE" it's not loaded etc.... from

...THEN teach gun safety

There is no difference betweeen those two concepts. I learned gun safety at age 10. Hands-on instruction began after a few short minutes of lecture about what happens when a bullet hits something.

[Pert_UK]

10. Sorry - confusion here...

"With guns, you might want to teach them that guns can be dangerous - to start teaching them about clearing the chamber, not pointing the gun at someone even if they're "SURE" it's not loaded etc. has automatically drawn them into contact with guns. That COULD encourage them to experiment by themselves.

Sure, as the kid gets older and shows an interest in hunting / target shooting, THEN teach gun safety."

My point was to teach practical, hands on, gun handling safety (clearing the chamber, not pointing the gun at someone even if they're "SURE" it's not loaded etc.) would automatically bring the child into contact with guns or make them very familiar with guns.

Teach them that guns are dangerous, they're not toys etc. Teach them practical gun safety if they choose to become involved with shooting, or if their contact with guns is unavoidable.

There's "theoretical" gun safety and "practical" gun safety - if you teach them the practical stuff it automatically familiarises them with guns, and gives them no chance to reject using guns if they want to.

[slackmaster]

12. OK, but I think you are still making an unfounded assumption

Specifically:

...if you teach them the practical stuff it automatically familiarises them with guns, and gives them no chance to reject using guns if they want to.

I value knowledge so highly that I cannot accept that it can be harmful as you seem to be suggesting. I do not agree that teaching a young person to clear a gun would necessarily imprint an indelible, irresistable idea that having guns is something he or she must do.

I believe it is possible for a person to learn how to unload a gun and still not want to own one.

[Pert_UK]

14. I agree with you on that......but.............

As an Englishman, to whom guns have always been the exception, rather than the rule, this whole concept is alarming....I only ever came into contact with guns when I wanted to start shooting air-rifles at the age of about 12.

"In order to improve their chances of survival and avoiding injury, each and every child in the USA should be taught how to handle firearms safely."

This seems to be what your comments boil down to, and I have to say that it is one of the saddest and most frightening thoughts I've had in a while.

The US has lost its head so badly that kids need to be made familiar with the safe handling of guns???

I still find it hard to believe...

[slackmaster]

16. 227 years and counting and nothing has materially changed

The US has lost its head so badly that kids need to be made familiar with the safe handling of guns???

The guns have always been here and the lessons of gun safety are no different today than they were in 1776. I see teaching gun safety as a very positive thing. The rates of injuries and deaths from unintentional shootings have been dropping since the early 1900s. Education is good. Knowledge is good. Ignorance kills.

[Ergotron]

39. Avoidance works....until they are out of your sight

Anybody with kids knows that they will do whatever they can get away with. If you don't teach your kids about guns, they'll just learn from someone else....perhaps the neighbors kids who like to "play army" with dads gun, or just want to show your kids how cool they are.

[CO Liberal]

42. I Disagree

My father had several guns. I remember when he got a handgun - he and my mother called us kids into their bedroom, showed us where the gun was kept, and told us that we were NEVER to touch it.

And none of us ever did.

[Ergotron]

44. That was called "good parenting" and "personal responsibility"....

...a couple of the things lacking in today's society.

[slackmaster]

8. The situation is very similar to drugs and sex

Drugs, sex, and guns are unavoidable realities of life. Survival requires a person to knowhow to be safe around all of them. Sooner or later any child, adolescent, or adult is likely to come into contact with them, and parents won't be around to supervise.

Teach gun realities (guns exist, guns are dangerous, guns are not toys, guns can kill you, lots of people have guns, people who have guns are not necessarily bad, etc.), then how to handle them safely if you must handle them.

Anyone who has raised kids knows that trying to teach pure avoidance always results in curiosity.

[Pert_UK]

11. This is a US-specific comment?

"Drugs, sex, and guns are unavoidable realities of life. "

Yes, in the US they are. Not in the UK. Nor are they "unavoidable" in most developed, "Western" countries. Even in European / Australasian countries which allow the ownership of firearms, it would only be necessary to teach gun safety if a child wanted to become involved in shooting.

OK, maybe in rural communities where hunting or pest control is commonplace then it makes sense to teach kids gun safety basics, but there is something profoundly disturbing about your assertion that American children cannot avoid coming into contact with guns even if they want to.

Land of the free?

P.

[slackmaster]

13. Yes, very much USA-specific

...there is something profoundly disturbing about your assertion that American children cannot avoid coming into contact with guns even if they want to.

Be disturbed if you wish. I recognize it as a reality of life in the USA, and it's not confined to rural areas. Far too many US kids are killed because they or a friend finds and plays with a gun that was stored negligently or discarded to hide evidence of a crime.

We have all kinds of dangers you won't find in the UK including poisonous reptiles, deadly spiders, mountain lions, and guns. Responsible parents and society owe it to the children to teach them how to deal with their specific environmental dangers.

[Pert_UK]

15. Unbelievably screwed up............

All US children need firearms training to prevent them accidentally shooting themselves and each other, in the event that they stumble across a firearm.

Excuse me while I weep myself unconscious at a world that has lost its way so very badly.......

[slackmaster]

17. No more screwed up than the situation with sex

When I was a teenager the worst thing that could happen to you for having random unprotected sex was pregnancy or an easily curable disease and all the embarrassment and shame that came with either. Now unprotected sex carries a risk of death. I wish it was not so. I wish we could go back to the way things were in the good old days, but I cannot make that happen.

It is not and will never be possible to ensure that all gun owners will always store their guns responsibly. The only logical answer is teaching kids how to take care of themselves.

Excuse me while I weep myself unconscious at a world that has lost its way so very badly.......

Weep if you need to. Guns cannot be un-invented. The genie is out of the bottle, especially in the USA.

A world with no guns would be better than ours in some ways and worse in other ways, but whatever you or I think about that prospect it simply is not going to happen.

[Pert_UK]

19. Depends on how you're viewing it.....

If you're saying that "kids cannot in practice avoid guns, so a practical way to reduce child injury and death due to guns is to teach kids how to handle a gun safely" then I don't disagree.

If you're happy with it, you're insane (no offense).

Consider your example of STDs - we don't just accept the inevitable presence of STDs, slap on a condom and go about our merry way. We spend billions trying to wipe the diseases out. We address the causes. The education element is that we try to minimise damage from STDs while we attack the underlying causes.

With guns, it would be obscene to just shrug our shoulders, accept that guns are an unavoidable, omnipresent element of society and that it is perfectly natural that kids HAVE to learn gun safety as soon as they can walk.

I'm not (and have never) suggesting a total ban on handgun - can we at least agree that it's a bad thing that kids in the US cannot avoid guns even if they and their parents want them to?

Seriously - the US must be the only "modern" country where kids can't avoid guns.....I can't think of any similar Western nation where the suggestion that CHILDREN must be introduced to weapons "for their own safety" wouldn't sound insane.

Have you given up on trying to keep your kids out of danger, and are now just telling them how to live more safely with it?

[slackmaster]

23. To me the answer is education, education, education

The underlying cause of "gun violence" isn't the guns themselves. It's bad BEHAVIOR that usually results from being chronically poor, unemployed, drug-addicted, hopeless, and overcrowded.

If you're happy with it, you're insane (no offense).

<elvis mode>

Thankyouverymuch, thank you, thank you.

</elvis mode>

...can we at least agree that it's a bad thing that kids in the US cannot avoid guns even if they and their parents want them to?

YES, YES, YES!

And the best way to curtail that problem is to:

1. EDUCATE gun owners about the dangers of improperly stored guns, and

2. EDUCATE kids on what to do when step 1 fails.

Have you given up on trying to keep your kids out of danger, and are now just telling them how to live more safely with it?

Based on my personal experience as a parent, the older a child gets the farther from the nest they wander and the more independent they become. You can completely protect an infant from danger, you do everything in your power to keep things safe around your own home when the child becomes mobile, but beyond your home's threshold your ability to control what influences the child drops precipitously. When that happens efforts to ISOLATE them from dangers produce rapidly dimishing returns, so the wiser course is to equip their brains with knowledge and skills so they will protect themselves from danger when (not if) they see it.

You teach them what poison ivy looks like and what it does.

You teach them about the habits of rattlesnakes, how to avoid being bitten, and what to do if they are bitten.

You teach them how to swim.

And unless you live in an isolated community where nobody has a gun, you teach them what to do when they see someone handling a gun in an irresponsible manner. (In short, leave the area and tell an adult what is happening.)

You teach them not to point toy guns at strangers. That forms the basis of teaching muzzle control later when they are ready for it.

I think middle-school age kids are old enough to be taught how to safely unload a gun, and I think that in the USA where guns are common, they should be. Most parents have no experience with firearms and are therefore not qualified to teach gun safety. That's why I support having it taught in public schools by experts.

[Terran]

22. Not where I grew up

Drugs, sex, and guns are unavoidable realities of life.

I was raised in southern California, and my household never had a gun in it; guns were never mentioned, nobody wanted one; they simply weren't in our universe. And the same was true for everyone I knew in that area, which was an average middle-class neighborhood. The area was not without crime, but I never heard of anyone I knew there rushing out to buy a gun. Guns are a cultural item, just like many other things. They are not inevitable. If you don't live in a culture that values guns, you don't have guns.

[slackmaster]

24. I grew up in Southern California too

An upper middle-class neighborhood near a major university.

We had guns in the house and I know that many of my neighbors and classmates did as well. I don't know how old you are, but my parents' generation had a lot of WWII and Korean War veterans. Many of the men had military experience and/or hunting in their backgrounds so a lot of them owned firearms. I and many other boys were taught gun safety at an early age by our dads. Guns were not a big deal, only rarely a topic of conversation. People started getting a lot more interested in them in the late 1980s when the state legislature started going hog-wild enacting ever more restrictive gun laws.

It's possible that some of your neighbors owned guns and never mentioned it to you. You can never be sure whether or not your neighbors own them unless you talk to them about it. (And even then you may not always get candid answers.)

BTW Dirk, how were the sex and drugs in your 'hood? :D

[Terran]

36. Dunno about the sex

but the drugs were decent!

I still think that if my little friends' dads had had guns, I would have heard about it at some point. You know how kids like to brag about stuff like that. As to my age, I am 43. My father was barely too young to have served in WW2; he was in the army toward the end of 1945, in El Paso. My uncle, being a couple of years older, did serve, and in Korea also (had some horrific experiences there); if I had been his son, I probably would have been exposed to guns a lot more (I didn't mean to imply that SoCal is some sort of gun-free culture!). Of course, my uncle and his family lived in Whittier--a different kinda place than LA County...

[Shanty Oilish]

18. Each and every child should be taught....

How to handle a baby. That'll come in handy. Guns...no.

[DoNotRefill]

21. Gun avoidance....

my neices recently visited. They'd been taught the "guns are bad" mantra in school. They seemed awfully interested in the contents of my safe....