Why is gun control such a hot topic down here?

[BigDaddyCaine]

Do people really think that the government is going to take guns away from citizens in the US? It will never happen, there are way too many guns.

Do people really think that banning guns is gonna somehow be the cure to end all evils? Its not. Most people in the US will disregard any laws banning firearm ownership, kind of like how most disregard laws banning the use, sale, manufacture and possesion of marijuana.

Does anyone think they can get the otherside to switch sides? Has that ever happened down here before?

I realize that most of you are bored and this is an interesting topic to debate....but damn... Its a fucking flamefest in this motherfucker. Not a single topic of the real problems have came up today down here in Justice/Public Safety. Poverty and the rediculous war on drugs is the cause of, i would say, atleast 75% of gun violence.(that was a conservative number cause its probably more like 90%)

Why are more blacks dying in america from gun violence than whites? Cause the government pushed the war on drugs directly into their neighborhoods. Not a single person who is pushing for gun bans or more gun control has said anything about poverty and the war on drugs, atleast not that ive seen the past few days. Can you people really deny that this more of the problem then people being able to own guns?

Why has UK gun crime(or all crime for that matter) soared recently? Cause the criminal who has a gun knows for a fact that the persons he is commiting the crime against are unarmed. Can we all agree on this? If not please explain to my why the UK gun crime has been rising.

And yes, i dont care where you live, if you shoot an animal(crocodile) that is trying to kill you, IT IS FUCKING SELF-DEFENCE!

There i feel much better now. I must say, my dog would be pissed if he couldnt go hunting. He told me i couldnt move to the UK.

[el_gato]

1. It's a pet issue of some

for whatever reason.

The anti-gun types are also conspicuously quiet regarding the creeping police state across this country. I posted once about corporate mercenaries using guns for profit and I posed the question regarding the
need to take guns from the hands of these types of people first.

They wouldn't touch it. I see the anti-gun types pursuing their agenda mostly due to the worship of authority more than anything else.

[billbuckhead]

2. The USA is the ONLY advanced nation with these weak

weapons regulations and the only advanced nation with the high murder rate to prove it.

[goju]

4. Actually

Mexico has a higher non-gun murder rate than the US has for gun murders. Go figure!

[iverglas]

11. and Mexico became

... an "advanced nation" (and we all know what that meant) ... when?

It's pretty sad when you gotta claim superiority to Mexico, isn't it?


(edited only to fix typo: to change and "advanced nation" to an "advanced nation", for ease of reading)

[Jack_DeLeon]

12. that is a pretty racist statement.

then again you being Canadian you probably feel superior to us here in the US, so I guess its not too surprising coming from you.

[Romulus]

15. gotta love those chauvinists

thinking certain countries are in the dark ages and all, don't know where some people get these ideas. :shrug:

I remember back in my own experience hearing how some people were incredulous that there were cars and electricity in Mexico. The same people couldn't believe that "regular Mexicans" has internet access and everything . . .:eyes:

[iverglas]

29. me either

thinking certain countries are in the dark ages and all, don't know where some people get these ideas.

Where'd ya get that one?

You really oughta ask for your money back.

I remember back in my own experience hearing how some people were incredulous that there were cars and electricity in Mexico. The same people couldn't believe that "regular Mexicans" has internet access and everything . . .:eyes:

Uh, yeah. And the nationality of the incredulous people in question was ...?

I'll bet it was the same as the nationality of the people who regularly make equally monstrously ignorant comments on the Internet and elsewhere about, oh, Canada, the UK, Australia ...

http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/thismorning/sites/a&e/mercer_010330.html

Rick Mercer: Talking to Americans
Broadcast March 30, 2001

Should Canada go to a 24-hour clock? Did you know that Prime Minister Jean Chrétien is black? Or that we have a king named Lucienne Bonhomme? And how about the news that Mayor Mel Lastman has reinstated the Toronto polar bear hunt?

Happily enough for comic Rick Mercer, Americans don't seem to know any better. ...

Rogers: They offer up their opinion so freely. But even if they come from institutions of higher learning, they don't know what they're talking about. Why do you think they feel they can just weigh in with an opinion?

Mercer: I think they stop and talk because, not only do Americans like to go on at great lengths on subjects they <know> nothing about, they are also incredibly generous. And when they hear that I'm from Canada, they want to help out because, well, "Canada, they're our friends. Plus, no one will see this," because we're from somewhere else.

You know, it's not the hardest job I've ever had.

So go ahead, ask me why I'm not suprised at these surprised acquaintances of yours.

[iverglas]

19. I give up

When did Mexico become an "advanced nation"?

Notice how I said (when I quoted someone else's use of the expression "advanced nation") "and we all know what that means"? Are you seriously pretending that you didn't know what it means?

That would be sad too, wouldn't it? To have to pretend to be so, well, dumb, in order to make some dull point?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html

Environment - current issues:

scarcity of hazardous waste disposal facilities; rural to urban migration; natural fresh water resources scarce and polluted in north, inaccessible and poor quality in center and extreme southeast; raw sewage and industrial effluents polluting rivers in urban areas; deforestation; widespread erosion; desertification; deteriorating agricultural lands; serious air and water pollution in the national capital and urban centers along US-Mexico border; land subsidence in Valley of Mexico caused by groundwater depletion note: the government considers the lack of clean water and deforestation national security issues

Infant mortality rate:
total: 21.69 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 23.63 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 19.65 deaths/1,000 live births (2004 est.)

Population below poverty line: 40% (2003 est.)

Household income or consumption by percentage share:
lowest 10%: 1.6%
highest 10%: 35.6% (2002)

Distribution of family income - Gini index: 53.1 (1998)

That last one's a good clue. A Gini index value higher than the value for the US (40.8 in 1997, and that is waaay out of date; it would be considerably higher now) is not the mark of an "advanced nation".

The Gini index measures the equity of income distribution. Canada, the UK, *all* other European nations and Japan have Gini indexes far below the US's; Russia, South Africa, Colombia -- all have Gini indexes higher than the US's. Oh no! Russia's in 2001 was 39.9 -- *more* equitable than the US's.

An infant mortality rate like that isn't great, either, in comparison to other nations.

Essentially, given that "advanced" is really just a comparative term, the net migration rate might be our best indicator. A negative net migration rate -- net *E*migration -- suggests that an awful lot of people think that, in a comparison with some other countries, Mexico loses.

But anyhow, what all this might have to do with race or racism is quite beyond me.


You looked up "equivocation" lately? Let's give it a try.

To equivocate is to use ambiguity to conceal the truth.

What's the ambiguity?

"Advanced": well, it could mean "civilized", or "cultured", or "very moral", I suppose. Would those meanings be relevant to our little chat here? I wouldn't have thought so.

I'd have thought that something like "possessed of an economy that is capable of meeting the needs of its members, and a system of government that is designed to achieve that purpose" might do the trick.

That's how we'd distinguish between, say, Canada and Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe and Zimbabweans may be lovely, but Zimbabwe is not an "advanced nation" within the meaning that is relevant in this context.


"that is a pretty racist statement."

Ya think, do you? (C'mon, I know you don't really think it, although I don't know for the life of me why you'd want to portray yourself as someone who would actually think it.)

It would be nice if you'd substantiate your own statement, but I know you won't.


then again you being Canadian you probably feel superior to us here in the US, so I guess its not too surprising coming from you.

Nah -- that "superiority" business, that's your gig. We aren't looking to horn in on it. You folks do it so well.

[goju]

21. Explain to me

how being classified an "advanced nation" has any bearing on homicide rates.

[iverglas]

23. well gosh and goldarn

"Explain to me
how being classified an "advanced nation" has any bearing on homicide rates."

Good bleeding grief.

Wasn't I just hearing a few folks whining away down here this very afternoon about how nobody ever talks about POVERTY and how it contributes to violence/homicide rates?

Wasn't one of them you -- and weren't you doing it in this very thread not 3 hours ago??

3. The gun controllers feign concern but,
they wont even mention other factors that contribute to our violent crime rates. That is what bothers me the most. For all the brain power down here, the issues of poverty, drugs, addiction, and gangs receive very little if any attention and more often than not, are ridiculed or ignored as being irrelevant. And what attention those issues do receive, its usually prompted by the pro gun side.

Are you SURE that you want to portray yourself as being this dim?

[goju]

24. Thank you

See, I had a bet going that you wouldnt be able to admit the role of poverty, education, drugs, gangs etc in homicide rates. I guess I lost. Or did I?

Are we still preaching gun control, or do we have more important issues we can turn our attention to?

[iverglas]

26. goodness gracious

"See, I had a bet going that you wouldnt be able to admit the role of poverty, education, drugs, gangs etc in homicide rates. I guess I lost. Or did I?"

Don't gamblers usually check out the track records of their subjects?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=80724#80856
(That's # 1 on a list of many posts by moi containing the expression "income disparity", the more relevant factor for the more sophisticated thinker.)

Oh my dear. What was I saying about this apparent memory problem of yours?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=78913

goju (869 posts)
Tue Aug-17-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #80
93. Oh my
... You see, what you have failed to do in your sunscreen diatribe, and what you continually fail to do in your gun control jihad, is make ANY mention of "other variables" that have "direct" causative influence on the death rates. You know, those factors "other" than sunscreen use or gun ownership.

and

iverglas (1000+ posts)
Wed Aug-18-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #93
96. I love a newbie
... When newbies make statements about things of which they know nothing, their statements are so often, well, false.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=73321
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=58809

... Interestingly, figures out this week show that income disparity in the US has continued apace in the last year -- and that the top 20% of the population (in terms of income level) has now managed to get its hands on 50% of income, while the bottom 20% has slipped to 3-point-something per cent. There simply is no "all other things being equal" comparison possible between the US and any other country, because there just isn't any other country in the world with anywhere near the amount of income there is in the US *and* anywhere near the disparity in the distribution of that income.

Hell, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you SHOULD be comparing yourselves with Mexico, eh?

Hey, why isn't somebody telling that Republican I saw on CNN this morning, who said that John Kerry will tax the middle class for the same reason that bank-robber guy robbed banks -- because that's where the money is -- that it isn't??

One out of 5 people in the US receive 1/2 of all income in the country.

A lot of the rest of us think that's just plain sick, and that anyone who would vote for the administration that has accomplished this, FOR ANY REASON, other than the most abject stupidity, is just plain evil.

[goju]

31. So how's that arrogance working for you?

Doing ok? Generally when someone trys to talk down to others its because of some, well, issues. Just wondering how you are doing?

And hows that gun control jihad holding up? Or do guns still haunt your existence?

[iverglas]

32. and allow me

How's the dumb act doing for you?

Do you find it awfully entertaining to say, over and over and over, that you don't know things that you have read/seen repeatedly?

Why exactly *would* someone say:

See, I had a bet going that you wouldnt be able to admit the role of poverty, education, drugs, gangs etc in homicide rates.

when he knew, absolutely positively and beyond a shadow of a doubt KNEW, that he was saying that he had bet that something false was true?

To make himself look foolish?

Or to convey the impression to some third party that he actually thought that what he was betting was true was true, even though there is no remote possibility in the world that he thought it was true?

Are there other possible answers? Can't think of any, myself.

I mean ... apart from actual genuine real stupidity, and I'm not making any allegation of that sort, not least of all because I would be making an allegation that I believed to be false, if I did, and I don't do that sort of thing.

Or do guns still haunt your existence?

Sweetheart, there has never been a gun in my existence, so I'm damned if I could know how one or more of 'em could "haunt" it.

How 'bout you: stopped beating your dog yet? going to vote Republican again this time around?

Heck, you wanna play loaded question, you might want to find some better ammunition, if you hope to stay standing.

[kiahzero]

40. Mexico is a developing nation. Pointing that out isn't "racist." (n/t)

[Egalitariat]

45. Thank you***

nm

[goju]

13. What does that have to do with it?

I thought the issue was guns. :shrug:

[iverglas]

20. boy, you are confused

I say:

and Mexico became
... an "advanced nation" (and we all know what that meant) ... when?

and you reply

"What does that have to do with it?"
I thought the issue was guns. :shrug:

just as if billbuckhead had never said

2. The USA is the ONLY advanced nation with these weak
weapons regulations and the only advanced nation with the high murder rate to prove it.

and YOU had never said, IN REPLY TO THAT

4. Actually
Mexico has a higher non-gun murder rate than the US has for gun murders. Go figure!

Go figure indeed.

Maybe you could chew on this while you're figuring.


http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/

Mmm mm. Good.

[goju]

22. Well I guess I am

I thought the prevalence of guns was the reason we have such a high homicide rate here in the good ole US of A. Now you appear to be saying that, because Mexico isnt an "advanced nation", that a comparison isnt valid. I wonder what other factors you think might have some effect on homicide rates, other than guns?

[iverglas]

25. maybe you need to go to some re-education camp

I thought the prevalence of guns was the reason we have such a high homicide rate here in the good ole US of A.

Or you could see whether Walmart has some shiny new thoughts on offer cheap.

Now you appear to be saying that, because Mexico isnt an "advanced nation", that a comparison isnt valid.

Gosh. I'm sure you're very proud that your infant mortality rate is 1/3 of Mexico's, too.

You could always try comparing yourself to Chad, if you wanted to feel really smug: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cd.html

Infant mortality rate:
total: 94.78 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 104.01 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 85.17 deaths/1,000 live births (2004 est.)

Anybody sensible and sincere would of course be more interested in, and concerned about, the fact that the firearms homicide rate in the US is many times higher than the Canadian rate, which is higher again than the rates in the UK and Australia.

But my dear boy, if it makes you feel good to compare the outcomes your society produces to those produced by Mexico, or, hell, Chad, you go right ahead.

[goju]

28. Anyone "truly" sincere

Would attempt to address the causes of those gun deaths, not besmirch others in some thinly veiled harangue of chauvinistic patriotism. But hey, whatever makes you feel good.

[BigDaddyCaine]

16. have you been to mexico?

Just thought i would ask.

[iverglas]

27. what

now you want to take me to Mexico?

Indeed I have. The same number of times I have been to the UK and to France. Not nearly as many times as I have been to Cuba. Or the US, of course.

I do hope you're happy.

[BigDaddyCaine]

37. no i dont wanna take you to mexico

I want you to take me out and show me around when i go to canada. :loveya: :hug:

[el_gato]

5. You avoid addressing the issue the orginal poster brought up

the root cause of violence in the U.S.

[BigDaddyCaine]

6. with 80 million guns

It would seem kind of hard to avoid 10,000 homocides by firearms, wouldnt you think? I dont think weapons regulations are the reason for high murder rates...do you?

[mikedemocrat]

46. The US violent crime rate in general is high

not just for guns although they make it easier to kill

[goju]

3. The gun controllers feign concern but,

they wont even mention other factors that contribute to our violent crime rates. That is what bothers me the most. For all the brain power down here, the issues of poverty, drugs, addiction, and gangs receive very little if any attention and more often than not, are ridiculed or ignored as being irrelevant. And what attention those issues do receive, its usually prompted by the pro gun side.

[Dolomite]

7. It's the only place you're allowed to talk about guns on DU.

It's really quite simple.

[BigDaddyCaine]

8. so if i shoot a deer this year

i cant go in the lounge and talk about it with other hunters?

[Dolomite]

10. If you shoot it with a gun - it will end up here.<n/t>

.

[skippythwndrdog]

18. My dadhad a good lounge thread about his deer hunt last year

in the lounge. If he'd fed some to everyone who asked, his 3 deer would have lasted about 2 minutes. As I recall, he only got flamed by a couple of PETA types.

[MrSandman]

41. Got some venison...

in the dehydrator now...Archery season opened Saturday.

[iverglas]

9. good for you

"And yes, i dont care where you live, if you shoot an animal(crocodile) that is trying to kill you, IT IS FUCKING SELF-DEFENCE! There i feel much better now."

I, on the other hand, tend to feel better when I've said something meaningful and accurate than when I've said something pointless and uninformed ...


"Do people really think that banning guns is gonna somehow be the cure to end all evils? Its not."

You really shoulda waited for somebody to answer the question.

It was, of course, not whether "banning guns is gonna somehow be the cure to end all evils". It was whether people really think that.

Met some people who do, have you? Or are you just jealous that the strawperson argument of the week award has already (if prematurely) been given out?

"Why are more blacks dying in america from gun violence than whites? ...
Why has UK gun crime(or all crime for that matter) soared recently? ..."

But heck, I do appreciate how you've explained so many things for me here. Would you consider taking on the burning issue of how to get mould off my shower ceiling? I could use some help.

"Cause the criminal who has a gun knows for a fact that the persons he is commiting the crime against are unarmed. Can we all agree on this? If not please explain to my why the UK gun crime has been rising."

I very much regret having to inform you that "we" do not all agree ... but you're safe; I wouldn't think of bothering you with an actual explanation of the complex phenomenon that is the apparent source of your apparent distress.

[BigDaddyCaine]

17. are you baiting me here or what?

Why post an essay if you dont wanna talk about the topic? And here i thought you might be smarter than me sense you write longwinded posts that you need a theasaurus to decifer...but after reading one i see it really just a bunch of crap with some fancy words mixed in.

[iverglas]

30. there once was ...

There once was the most charming jay-pee-ess-er
whose posts you needed a thesaurus to decifer
Stop! don't open that url!
Don't you know - that's no girl,
that's the angel of death come from Lucifer.

'Cause you see, my friend, it's been said before you, and by authors far better than you:

Here Malice, Rapine, Accident, conspire,
And now a Rabble Rages, now a Fire;
Their Ambush here relentless Ruffians lay,
And here the fell Attorney prowls for Prey;
Here falling Houses thunder on your Head,
And here a female Atheist talks you dead.
-- LONDON: A POEM In IMITATION of the
THIRD SATIRE of JUVENAL,
By Samuel Johnson, 1738

Watch out!

[Jack_DeLeon]

14. My thoughts...

Do people really think that the government is going to take guns away from citizens in the US? It will never happen, there are way too many guns.

I'll agree with you partially.

I dont think its possible for "the government to take away all the guns," however it is entirely possible for the government to turn current law abiding gun owners into criminals.

Lets just take California for example. There it is illegal to buy weapons that are legal in almost every other state in the US.

If you owned one of these weapons before they were made illegal to buy you can legally keep them as long as you registered them. That right there made many law abiding gun owners into criminals, either not registering them out of principle or out of ignorance.

Additionally that person can now no longer give that weapon to anyone within the state either as a gift to friends or family, or as part of an inheritence when they die. To me that seems like a large violation of thier property rights.

Poverty and the rediculous war on drugs is the cause of, i would say, atleast 75% of gun violence.(that was a conservative number cause its probably more like 90%)

I agree with you completely. Alot of people here agree with that so much so that there isnt anything to argue. The war on drugs is what is ruining our country.

I think the only argument anyone had on that topic was one "anti" saying something to the effect of "so you want to get high and have guns."

[Donald Ian Rankin]

39. I don't entirely agree:

>I dont think its possible for "the government to take away all the guns," however it is entirely possible for >the government to turn current law abiding gun owners into criminals.

I don't agree with the way you've phrased this. If the government makes it illegal to do something, and I then do it, then I'm the one turning myself into a criminal, not the government. It's only "turning me into a criminal" if the government makes it illegal for me to do something I *can't* stop doing, and stopping owning guns is very easy indeed.

Oh, and the reason gun control is such a hot topic down here is easy - it's because it's a conflict that doesn't split down a right-left line, so that even when you segregate on those lines you still get people who disagree violently in the same groups. I'm sure that most of the people who get so worked up about it here, on both sides, actually care more about other issues, but because everyone on DU agrees about them it generates far less heat.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has the same effect, only more so, because again there are left-wingers on both sides. - the administrators have to keep it in it's own little lead-lined box, covered with warning notices and fire extinguishers, and it still regularly spontaneously combusts. I imagine that the cluster of issues surrounding protectionism/tariffs/subsidies/third world aid, which again doesn't correlate well with left-right, has something of the same effect, but I haven't got round to checking yet- I'm still fairly new here.

[slackmaster]

33. You should have been here a month ago

Discussions about the demise of US federal "assault weapons ban" were all the rage.

It's been a whole month now and the sky hasn't fallen yet. Amazing.

[billbuckhead]

34. Yet is a very big word and we know the terrorists want Bush to win

One reason is because the real terrorists want Bush to win. I predict after the election that the bad guys will go wild with our weak gun regulation.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

35. You mean to say

that terrorists would rather come here and spend upwards of $300-$500 for a semi auto AK variant with paperwork, rather than bring their $50.00 Afghan full auto, possibly with a GP30 grenade launcher?

I doubt terrorists are going to flock to our shores and invade gun stores and gun shows because they can get semi auto weapons with flash hiders and bayonet lugs now.

[billbuckhead]

36. It's easier to buy the guns over here than smuggle them in

President Kerry beat Chimpy over the head with this last night.

[BigDaddyCaine]

38. did you catch the part

where kerry mentioned that our borders are not being protected enough? Bush is so worried that people are gonna cross over from mexico that he seems to have forgot canada.

[solinvictus]

43. Borders

BushCo wants the borders open to exploit the cheap labor. Still, I don't see a connection between terrorism and our gun laws. All the laws that prevent guns on airlines did nothing to prevent the Sep. 11 attacks, but I'd wager a passenger with a .38 and the will to use it could've done so.

[alwynsw]

48. Agreed.

O.k. So I'm a little late. Just catching up on this thread.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

42. If you can smuggle a human being across the border

you can damn well get a rifle across.

[superblah]

44. what about the DC sniper

he was using an assault weapon.

That anyone can go into a gunstore and come out a deadly sniper with an assault weapon is a tragedy in this country.

[slackmaster]

47. You are wrong in so many ways

he was using an assault weapon.

No he was not. The DC "snipers" used a post-ban AR-15 clone made by Bushmaster.

It was a perfectly legal rifle, not an "assault weapon".

That anyone can go into a gunstore and come out a deadly sniper with an assault weapon is a tragedy in this country.

No weapon can make a person into a "deadly sniper". That requires the will to become one. With that in place, any arm that shoots straight can become a "sniper rifle".

On edit: Never mind. You are already dead.