Can regular hunting ammo penetrate bulletproof vests?

[ErskineBowlesVoter]

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_5592.shtml

[specter]

1. No

unless its teflon coated but thats not regular hunting ammo

[Retired AF Dem]

2. Yes

Most police officers wear bullet resistant vests that are rated for handgun bullets, so no they will not stop a typical hunting round.

[ErskineBowlesVoter]

4. That is what I thought

But the Kennedy amendment would not have banned typical hunting ammo right?

[goju]

14. Yes, it would have n/t

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Wrong.

You stand there, wearing a Second Chance Vest, and let me shoot you in the vest with a FMJ .243. Thing will go through that vest laughing all the way.

Fact is, those vests do not confer invulnerability. Just an extra level of confidence. Anytime someone gets shot and has a vest stop the round, should be considered their gift from The Deity.

[Devil Dog Dem]

7. Teflon has nothing to do with piercing.

It just protects the barrel from damage from the bullet, which is harder than lead.

[goju]

13. Who told you that?

Please dont read VPC propagand, ok? Its bad for the brain and, we dont really want to encourage their contempt for the American people. Deal?

[alwynsw]

15. Better check your facts unless you're deliberately being incorrect

Some standard handgun rounds and virtually all modern rifle rounds with the exception of a variety of the .22 caliber rounds will penetrate.

[quisp]

5. the answer is "It depends"

It depends on the body armor. It depends on the ammunition. It depends on the distance. It depends on if you said prayers last night...

Long answer no with a maybe
Short answer yes with a but...

[Devil Dog Dem]

6. Yes.

Like knife through butter.

[The_Camp_Ninja]

8. Vest

For the very most part, absolutely, and quite easily.

[jody]

9. The article you cite is wrong because

the bill Kerry sponsored would have effectively banned many semiautomatic shotguns. Senate bill 1431 says:
QUOTE
SEC. 2. DEFINITIONS.
(a) IN GENERAL- Section 921(a)(30) of title 18, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:
`(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means any of the following:
* * * * * * * * * *
`(K) A conversion kit.
`(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.'.
UNQUOTE

Popular semiautomatic shotguns like the Remington 1100 are used by the military and law enforcement and are presumed to be a “semiautomatic assault weapon” for the purpose of the bill and are therefore banned.

The article is also wrong about Kennedy's Amendment banning hunting ammunition for rifles because it says
QUOTE
SEC. 5. ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.
(a) EXPANSION OF DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.--Section
921(a)(17)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
(1) in clause (i), by striking ``or'' at the end;
(2) in clause (ii), by striking the period at the end and inserting a semicolon; and
(3) by adding at the end the following:
``(iii) a projectile that may be used in a handgun and that the Attorney General determines, pursuant to section 926(d), to be capable of penetrating body armor; or
UNQUOTE

Note that many calibers of ammunition used for hunting are also used in handguns, e.g. 30-30, 45-70, and 308. Under the bill, the Attorney General could ban those types of hunting ammunition because they penetrate body armor.

The Encore® pistol is available in a number of calibers used in hunting rifles.

Edit by adding links to Encore pistol.

[MrSandman]

10. If the vest did [unlikely] stop...

say a .30-30, the kinetic energy of the round would likely be fatal.

.30-30 is one of the least powerful of "medium game rounds."

[Jack_DeLeon]

11. Yes...

and btw "bulletproof" vests are not bulletproof.

[ElWood]

12. Yep

Vests are typically to stop handgun rounds. Rifle bullets are traveling at much higher velocities and are typically more pointed than rounded, decreasing the surface area of impact which increases the amount of energy available to penetrate the vest. As an example, take a #2 pencil. Push with the eraser end on your palm. Now, push with the pointed end with the same amount of pressure. See the difference? Which would be easier to penetrate the skin with? Same principle.


ElWood

[RoeBear]

16. From the article:

"Kerry said he favored a punitive tax on what the interviewer described as "cop-killer" bullets designed to mushroom on impact. And he also said he favored "more" tax on ordinary ammunition as well."

SO now it's bullets that mushroom that are 'cop-killers'?

[RoeBear]

17. Also from the article:

"Kerry's Stated Position:In a campaign document on his website called a "Sportsmans Bill of Rights " Kerry vows to support "The Right to Own Firearms," and adds:

Kerry Campaign: John Kerry and John Edwards will always support the Second Amendment right of law-abiding American citizens to keep and bear arms, such as rifles and shotguns, including semi-automatic firearms used by hunters and sportsmen across this country. Gun rights are fundamental for the sport of hunting, and they will vigorously support those rights as president."

Although the article refuted alot of the reasons not to vote for Kerry if you're a hunter or sportsman, it didn't do much for someone like me who is neither one. I'm just a person who wants to be able to own firearms for self defense.

[Lefty48197]

19. It's a shame that they need to make a statement like that to counter

all the lies in this forum, and on the pages of the NRA magazines.

[alwynsw]

54. The only thing that bothered me about that statement

is the fact that handguns were not mentioned. It made me wonder, but not enough to change my vote.

[Liberal Classic]

18. I must concur

...what Kerry voted for was an amendment sponsored by Sen. Ted Kennedy that would have covered rifle bullets capable of piercing soft body armor and also marketed as "armor-piercing," and wasn't aimed at hunting ammunition. 

"Bullet-proof" vests are only effective against small caliber pistol ammunition.

[Iver Johnson]

20. Body Armor

Military body armor (level IV, with ceramic trauma plates) will stop virtually any civilian small arms ammunition. Anything less protective decreases in effectiveness as you go down the scale. A military set will run up to $2,000.00 new. Just curious, are you planning on stopping incoming fire? Or wondering how effective body armor will be against your fire?

[jody]

21. Do you have body armor recommendations for troops going to Iraq? n/t

[Iver Johnson]

22. Body Armor recommendation

A level IV vest (vest is a misnomer in this case)with 10"X12" ceramic trauma plates front and rear (there are pockets on a level IV meant to accept the plates),pay extra for the kevlar groin protector, kevlar sides, kevlar pauldrons, which are kind of like short sleeves or shoulder protectors, and the kevlar collar is useful also. Have extra trauma plates as they become less effective after taking direct fire impact. The plates alone are around $500 per set. A top quality set of body armor will run $2,000 or more new. I left mine with a newbie when I rotated out earlier this year. Good luck.

[jody]

69. Thanks for your advice. I've purchased a set for a Major going to Iraq. nt

[Iver Johnson]

75. Excellent!

Unfortunately, it will probably come in handy, to put it mildly. Is your friend Army or USMC?

[iverglas]

23. I've got a better recommendation

Don't go.

(No, no, not you, jody. I know you're not going, and I know you're not reading.)

Simple to execute, investment required minimal, possible returns enormous. I mean --

The life of the person whom one doesn't kill: Priceless

-- eh?

How the hell does anyone justify personally participating in this monstrous crime against the world?

Beats me all to hell.

[Iver Johnson]

24. Do you imagine

That I'm the only veteran of OIF I or OIF II who visits here? I'm a registered Democrat and a U.S. Marine. I follow the lawful orders of those Officers legally commissioned to give those orders. I was an instrument of U.S. policy under Presidents Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan (Beirut 1982-1984), George H.W. Bush (Panama 1989 and Kuwait 1991), William Clinton (Somalia 1993 and Kosovo 1995), and now George W. Bush. I will continue in my chosen profession, the profession of arms, as long as I am able and as long as the Marine Corps allows me to. I do not seek your good opinion or your high regard, as while you have been here accumulating a high post count, I've been elsewhere accumulating the respect and affection of my fellow Marines, sailors, and soldiers. Other than my wife and daughters, they are the only ones whose regard matters at all to me.

[iverglas]

25. dandy

"I do not seek your good opinion or your high regard, as while you have been here accumulating a high post count, I've been elsewhere accumulating the respect and affection of my fellow Marines, sailors, and soldiers. Other than my wife and daughters, they are the only ones whose regard matters at all to me."

And perhaps you imagine that any of this matters to me. Perhaps you think that my regard, or the regard of anyone to whom you refer, is even in issue.

Just so's you know, your choice of profession and your standing in the eyes of whom/how many is really of no concern to me ... any more than mine would be to you if I were engaged in acts you regarded as reprehensible and inexcusable ... because they were.

Yes, while you were earning all that high regard, I was ... well, I was posting on the internet. Yup, posting on the internet was all I was doing, for sure. And earning high regard was all you were doing, for just as sure. Sarcasm off.

But hey, it's always fun to see the discourse on display.

"Lawful orders" ... . So many questions raised, and left unanswered.



I wasn't talking to you, actually, but if you'd wanted to answer my question, you could have done so.

How the hell does anyone justify personally participating in this monstrous crime against the world?

You didn't. There we are. All done.

[Iver Johnson]

26. Let's just agree that we disagree

And leave it at that. The Marines and soldiers in the field certainly do not see our actions as criminal in any way. If I was too quick to take offense, then mea culpa. It's been a tumultuous couple of days for everybody.

[FatSlob]

27. This is about as rude a post as I've seen here.

I expected better. Maybe you, Iverglas, think of the war as a crime against the world. I do not. I respect Iver Johnson and thank him for his service to our country. I am dismayed by your attitude towards such a fine man. The fact that you and I and Iver Johnson don't agree with the justification that was given for the war in Iraq does not mean that there wasn't any. Everybody thought there were WMDs. You belittling, demeaning attitude towards others is indicative of one who only views things from her side, I suggest that a barrister such as yourself could do quite a bit better. As you smugly sit in your home enjoying the lovely Canadian Fall and early winter, you should note that there are men and women fighting for their fellow Marines out there, and wish them the best.

[iverglas]

30. and I care that you're dismayed

... uh, not.

"Maybe you, Iverglas, think of the war as a crime against the world. I do not."

Ditto: I care ... not. Although I'm mildly curious why someone who does not think that the invasion and occupation of a sovereign country by an imperialist power in search of profit, and the killing of thousands and thousands of the people of that country, is a crime against the world would be hanging out here, I won't bother asking.

"The fact that you and I and Iver Johnson don't agree with the justification that was given for the war in Iraq does not mean that there wasn't any."

What are you on about? Nothing that has anything to do with anything I've said, that's for sure.

"Everybody thought there were WMDs."

What colour is the sky on your planet? Why would anyone make such an outrageously false statement? And even were it true, what does it have to do with anything? The actions of the US would still be monstrous.

"You belittling, demeaning attitude towards others is indicative of one who only views things from her side, I suggest that a barrister such as yourself could do quite a bit better."

I'm not a barrister, whatever that has to do with anything. Did ya want to tell me what your occupation is, so that I can cobble together some bit of chiding nonsense for you?

If you think that there is another "side" to the question of the monstrousness of the invasion and occupation of Iraq by Imperial America and the killing of people for profit, you feel free to sit on it. You'll be invisible to me, I'm afraid, since you'll have entered the other side of the looking glass. Your saying that there is another "side" to the question doesn't make it so.

"As you smugly sit in your home enjoying the lovely Canadian Fall and early winter, you should note that there are men and women fighting for their fellow Marines out there, and wish them the best."

Cue The Green Berets while I polish the apples for that pie.

If I can think of some reason why I would wish the best to someone involved in the atrocity in question, I'll be sure to do it. I'm afraid that I don't generally take instruction without a good reason to follow it. And I generally suggest that people who issue admonitions such as yours find a better place for them.

I'm sure I hope they all come home safe and sound, as long as they manage to do it without doing a single fucking thing to advance the US agenda in Iraq. I doubt that this applies to many.

In the meantime, anyone who wishes to avoid doing such things and cannot do so otherwise than by leaving his/her country will be welcome in my home, at my expense, for as long as necessary. (I mean, until the beds are all taken, anyhow.) I've done it before, and I'll do it again, and I suppose I'll just keep on doing it as long as your country keeps on doing what it does.

There were without question a lot of "fine men" doing their "service to their country" in Hitler's army. Following those lawful orders.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

65. oh look

"I have no respect for you, due to your association of fine American War Fighters with Nazis."

(Wtf is an "American War Fighter"? ... Isn't it Germans who capitalize non-proper nouns ...?)

You might want to go withdraw your respect for some of these folks. More masquerading Canadians, I'm shoor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2598569

[iverglas]

66. oh no, there's more!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2601500

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

72. well hmm

"Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines" They are lumped together as War Fighters."

Google finds me 83 instances of "American war fighters" ... not one of 'em capitalized beyond the "American" bit. Ditto when I take out the "American" and look for the phrase in an appropriate context.

And that was actually the question, y'see.

"Your Russian tactics are showing through."

What's that, some sort of riff on my reference to your German orthography? Who knows ...

[iverglas]

73. good job

That told 'em.

Glad to be of assistance.

[slackmaster]

31. Well said FatSlob

Here we have an attorney advising someone to commit a capital offense!

From the Uniform Code of Military Justice:

885. ART. 85. DESERTION

(a) Any member of the armed forces who--

(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;

(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or

(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another on of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.

(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.

(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

[iverglas]

34. aren't we cute

Once again, for the really hard of hearing. I am no longer a barrister, and the only time I was ever an attorney was when my elderly African-Canadian friend travelled to Africa and gave me power of attorney over his bank account while he was gone.

So ...

"Here we have an attorney advising someone to commit a capital offense!"

What you actually have is a former barrister & solicitor stating that if someone wishes to do something that is no offence whatsoever where she's saying it (there being no capital offences whatsoever here to start with), she will provide him/her with food and shelter.

Your laws just don't apply to me, y'know? Even if anything I had done were contrary to any of them. I mean, did I see you QUOTING ME "advising someone to" do ANYTHING? As usual, nope.

(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct ... .

And I'm just proud as hell to say that I've had such persons as co-workers (yup, working for the Cdn gummint) and friends, and harboured one of them personally, along with occasionally harbouring mere resisters.

Damn. I guess I don't just post on internet boards. How come nobody's lining up to congratulate moi on my service to the fine men in question?

Anybody who quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid KILLING PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF PROFIT is A-Okay in my books.

And anybody who congratulates them for doing it nauseates me.

[slackmaster]

35. I respect your right to choose to be nauseated

Knock yourself out. Your comments and attitude are offensive.

:puke:

[iverglas]

36. hey, you gotta admit

"Your comments and attitude are offensive."

I'm not killing anybody for profit, or engaged in any campaign to subjugate any other people for profit.

Or offering ostentatious thanks to anyone who is.

Offence is just so in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?

Some funny eyes there are around here, fer sure. I tell how I actively aided USAmericans who were victimized by their own government, and who were actively resisting participation in the obscenity that was the Vietnam War at risk and sacrifice to themselves (and as I've said before, there are details that are not going to get said in cyberspace, but there was a wee bit of personal risk and sacrifice of my own involved), and I get dissed.

Where am I?

[goju]

42. Well

"Where am I?"

That is about the best, and most honest question Ive seen from you yet.

[-..__...]

37. "Your laws just don't apply to me, y'know?"

Then why would you be so emotional and opinionated on gun control (or lack of), laws in the United States? Yes, I know; xx% of firearms used in crimes in your country are smuggled in from the US. Where does the fault lie? In our "gun control" laws, CA border interdiction, or penalties for illegal possession? A little of everything?

You speak of our laws, what about your own? Rather than blame the US for the flood of easily available cheap handguns across your borders, is there any culpability or responsibility that should also be addressed by your own government? Why should we be expected to stiffen our laws to suit "our good neighbors to the North" when they do little or nothing to discouraged or penalize the offenders?

You're pretty keen on CA laws and punishment. What is the max and average sentence for illegal smuggling and/or criminal possession of firearms?

Before you ask us to change our laws, reexamine your own.

Your laws just don't apply to me, y'know?

[iverglas]

39. put your money where your mouth is

Then why would you be so emotional and opinionated on gun control (or lack of), laws in the United States?

And demonstrate that there is any factual basis to the allegation implied in your "question".

Yes, I know; xx% of firearms used in crimes in your country are smuggled in from the US.

Oh look! You answered it yourself -- as it relates to any opinion that I have ever in fact stated about the matter.

Anything else you'd like to know ... or insinuate?

You're pretty keen on CA laws and punishment. What is the max and average sentence for illegal smuggling and/or criminal possession of firearms? Before you ask us to change our laws, reexamine your own.

What a bunch of blustering blowhardness having nothing to do with any topic under discussion.

I happen to be quite familiar with my own laws. And I don't happen to share the moronic/right-wing notion that the sentence to which an offender is liable has some miraculous general deterrent effect (look that up in your Funk & Wagnall's, eh?), in any event. So I'm seeing no point calling for response.

Why should we be expected to stiffen our laws to suit "our good neighbors to the North" when they do little or nothing to discouraged or penalize the offenders?

I dunno. Stopped beating your dog yet?

"Your laws just don't apply to me, y'know?"

I gather that you intended this as/thought this to be wit. That's just sad.

[alwynsw]

32. I'll stay out of the middle of the argument in spirit although the posting

program will place this comment there.

This post is to thank you for your service to us and our country. Uncle Sam's Motorcycle Club needs more like you.
:toast:
(Although you might have done better in the Air Force. Now guess which branch I served in.)

[Iver Johnson]

38. It's been a privilege

to have served this country. Thanks for the support expressed by you and Fat Slob. I know that's just a screen name, but it hardly seems right to refer to him as that. In three more years I'll have 30 in, and I wouldn't have missed a minute of it. By the way, there are a lot more Democrats in the ranks than you might believe. Not among the Ofiicers, but certainly among the enlisted. And the best that I can tell, it has nothing to do with Michael Moore or F/911. We've always been there. We are a cross section of America. And for the Canadian poster who got this going, your opinion of my country and those of us who serve is about as irrelevant to me as your country is to world affairs.

[iverglas]

40. oh look

your opinion of my country and those of us who serve is about as irrelevant to me as your country is to world affairs.

It's an officer and a gentleman!

Plainly not a scholar though, more's the pity.

[Iver Johnson]

41. No, I'm not a scholar ,

Just a Master Gunnery Sergeant of Marines, you uninformed, elitist, pacifist. By the way, that's not a commissioned rank.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goju]

46. "that's not a commissioned rank"

"Just a Master Gunnery Sergeant of Marines, you uninformed, elitist, pacifist. By the way, that's not a commissioned rank."

Im not sure our little canadian instigator would care, or even know the difference. Her contempt for you and your service, regardless of whether she will actually point a finger specifically at you or not, is plain to anyone. She is an admitted abettor to desertion, and from her thinly veiled gloating, probably other crimes as well. I would guess that the only time she, and people like her, will ever give you the respect you deserve is when their country of residence is threatened. More's the pity, when you dont show up.

Thanks for your service.

[iverglas]

47. almost there

She is an admitted abettor to desertion

I am a loud and proud helper to resisters of fascism.

I don't "admit" things I have never denied and have no reason to deny.

I don't "abet" people who have committed no offence.

But hey, you were, uh, close, eh?


I would guess that the only time she, and people like her, will ever give you the respect you deserve is when their country of residence is threatened. More's the pity, when you dont show up.

I wonder when that would be. There's only one visible threat to my country's security right now, and you're sitting in it.

[goju]

48. Well smack me with a dictionary

Semantics seems to be your only game, but dont let that ugly little fact kill your buzz. You go girl!

"There's only one visible threat to my country's security right now, and you're sitting in it."

Really? I dont recall the US ever making any threats to Canada. Maybe you could be specific, or would that tax your tin foil reserves?

[iverglas]

49. ooooh, that hurt

"you uninformed, elitist, pacifist"

An insult that is (a) dumb, (b) dumb and ... oh yeah, (c) dumb.

Not to mention (a) unrelated to reality and based on nothing, (b) unrelated to reality and based on nothing, and ... wait for it ... (c) unrelated to reality and based on nothing.

I mean, wow, talk about uninformed. And the informational foundation for that opinion is ...?

And hey, élitist. I guess that would be the conclusion from the fact that the resisters I was aiding were working-class kids who hadn't got past high school, if they'd got that far, including the one particular one who'd actually volunteered before realizing that what he was going to be sent to Vietnam to do was abhorrent and immoral.

Or oops. Maybe it was just an unfounded false allegation.

And pacifist? Moi? You might not want to put that one to the test.


"By the way, that's not a commissioned rank."

Ah, forgive my assumption that someone announcing he was held in such high regard by all and sundry had some formal importance to go with the self-importance.

Or maybe just forgive me for using a figure of speech.

My grandfather was a warrant officer ... after being a captain in a previous army, that is. My great-uncle, a private, was gassed a month before the end of WWI and is buried in France; he's listed here:



I often attend Remembrance Day ceremonies to honour him and all the men who were cannon-fodder to the imperialists in that war and wars before it (and the women who nursed them); and the people who served and died for honourable causes in WWII and in Canadian peacekeeping missions all over the world (including the ones killed by a dishonourable USAmerican or two).

There are cannon-fodder in the US military in Iraq too, as there were in Vietnam. The evil and self-interested are not the only ones who vote for the monstrous Bush and agree to do his bidding; the hopelessly and unfathomably ignorant do it too, against their own interests. And they, who are mainly without any other opportunities in their own society and are ripe for exploitation of all sorts, "volunteer" to do the exploiters' dirty work, certainly, and are to be pitied, and I do pity them. Where does their personal responsibility lie? I'm no more capable of deciding that, or willing to assign blame, than I am of deciding where the personal responsibility of an abused child for abusing as an adult lies or eager to assign blame. They may simply not have had the opportunity to make a moral choice, not knowing that there was a choice to be made. But as far as I can tell, I'm not talking to them.

[alwynsw]

51. And your point about your warrior heritage would be?

Pacifist or not? I believe we know the answer. The fact that you had warriors in your lineage proves nothing concerning your positions. After all, Hillary Clinton's father was once the chairman of the Illinois Republican Party. As i understand it, he died clinging to those values. My point? Offspring often follow paths far different from the parent's path.

Insofar as aiding deserters and/or dodgers is concerned, the practice is beneath contempt.

[iverglas]

57. let me s p e l l it out

"Pacifist or not? I believe we know the answer."

I'd tell you what *I* believe about that ... but I'm sure I don't need to.

"The fact that you had warriors in your lineage proves nothing concerning your positions."

Nope. And amazingly enough, it was offered for that purpose. It was a fairly simple and direct progression of thoughts, but I guess you didn't follow. The fact that I participate in activities to acknowledge and appreciate their and others' military service -- in ways far more sincere and appropriate than anything I've seen happen in the US, incidentally; we don't have tailgate parties on Remembrance Day, we gather in public places and remember -- kinda obviates the "pacifist" label, doncha think?

"Insofar as aiding deserters and/or dodgers is concerned, the practice is beneath contempt."

Then I guess the practice of killing civilians and plundering their societies in the service of one's masters' profits and power (if not one's own, a possibility not excluded) must be in about ... well, I guess it would be the seventh circle of hell, the place for those who have committed violence against their neighbours.

I must say that some true colours really are shining bright tonight. I thought that, on the whole, DUers opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq as a bit of an article of faith. Back when people opposed the atrocity that was the war against Vietnam, we progressive types didn't actually praise the people committing it and condemn those who refused to be complicit in it. Times certainly do change, I guess. I'm just the same as I always was, but now progressives say that participating in the murder and maiming of innocents on a higher moral plane than refusing. Or so one would think if one just hung out here.

You might want to figure out the difference between opposing wars of oppression and opposing wars against oppression. If your new little buddy wanted to go defend a few Sudanese refugees, I'd be patting his brushcut head with the rest of you ... I mean, assuming you'd still be patting his head. Of course, I'd be patting it if he were defending Iraq and Iraqis against his brothers in arms, too.

[alwynsw]

61. Your argument is beyond redemption. n/t

[slackmaster]

74. You haven't learned a thing from anyone here

Maybe if you spent more time reading and less pontificating and scolding, you'd understand other peoples' views better.

I thought that, on the whole, DUers opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq as a bit of an article of faith.

Faith is fine for religion, but many of us including myself oppose the whole Iraq situation on rational and moral grounds.

Back when people opposed the atrocity that was the war against Vietnam, we progressive types didn't actually praise the people committing it and condemn those who refused to be complicit in it.

There's a big difference between a person of conscience leaving the country, fleeing to Canada or wherever to avoid serving; and someone who is already a sworn member of the armed forces going AWOL. The former is on firm moral ground as long as he or she NEVER RETURNS to the country. I know people who did that, and I respect them. The latter, a deserter who violates his oath, is a criminal.

Times certainly do change, I guess. I'm just the same as I always was, but now progressives say that participating in the murder and maiming of innocents on a higher moral plane than refusing.

You have to weigh all possible alternative paths starting from where you are, not where you wish you were. If every member of the US armed forces walked out of Iraq now the slaughter of innocents surely would not stop. The country would plunge into a lengthy period of anarchy. One soldier or a thousand deserting wouldn't make a hoot of difference in Iraq, other than to make more difficult the job of those who fulfill their duty.

The RIGHT way out of Iraq from where we stand today is to change the leadership of the US and get on with a better plan that involves cooperation and peace-building by many nations. The Democratic Party blew its best opportunity to do that in 2004. We failed as an opposition party, and as a result George W. Bush is Commander in Chief of the US armed forces.

[alwynsw]

50. BTW, Gunny. Welcome to DU.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goju]

53. Jingoism isnt soley an American phenomenon

Everyone's a pacifist between wars. It's like being a vegetarian between meals. ~Colman McCarthy

Forgive her. When canada gets a bloody nose, her/their perspective will change. Who do you suppose they will run to for protection?

[alwynsw]

56. Greenland, of course!

[iverglas]

60. you're getting ahead of yourself there

"When canada gets a bloody nose, her/their perspective will change. Who do you suppose they will run to for protection?"

Who or what, exactly, am I supposed to be running from?

Somebody whose aim was a little off?

Here's something for you:



Don't forget to pin it to your backpack next time you go abroad; it tends to deflect unpleasant things that might otherwise get lobbed your way.

[goju]

71. Do you think canada is immune from attack?

Because if you do, you are living a delusion.

"Who or what, exactly, am I supposed to be running from?"

Hmm, I cant imagine.

"Don't forget to pin it to your backpack next time you go abroad; it tends to deflect unpleasant things that might otherwise get lobbed your way."

What unpleasant things? Insults from pompous, self reightous America haters? I seem to get that right here in this forum, without going abroad.

[iverglas]

59. sailing pretty close to the wind there, fella

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility

Don't say I never gave you anything.

She is an enemy of our country, sure as hell.

Hee hee. Tell that to people who actually voted Democrat.

Or you could tell it to the Marines, I guess. You might get a better reception there.

[iverglas]

64. oh look

Some more enemies of your country? --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2590647

I know, they're all just Canadians pretending to be Democrats.

[iverglas]

67. this time it's a Brit

... but it's one of yer own posting it at DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1325477

http://www.mirror.co.uk/columnists/brianreade /
GOD HELP AMERICA Nov 4 2004
THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN..

THEY say that in life you get what you deserve. Well, today America has deservedly got a lawless cowboy to lead them further into carnage and isolation and the unreserved contempt of most of the rest of the world.

... A self-serving, dim-witted, draft-dodging, gung-ho little rich boy, whose idea of courage is to yell: "I feel good," as he unleashes an awesome fury which slaughters 100,000 innocents for no other reason than greed and vanity.

But hey, why not just help him out?

[iverglas]

68. there they go again

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1324439

murder ... slaughter ... carnage ... pillage ... killing ... GENOCIDE.

Someone tell these people they're enemies of ... um, their country.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[T Town Jake]

55. Whatever happened to the poster in question, BTW?...

...I figured that he'd be swarming all around this forum, boasting about how the gun control banner he so proudly waves around carried our side to such a smashing Congressional & electoral victory last Tues-- oh, yeah, right, I forgot...nevermind...

[iverglas]

58. oh, you mean

the unemployed 20-year-old kid?

"boasting about how the gun control banner he so proudly waves around carried our side to such a smashing Congressional & electoral victory last Tues-- oh, yeah, right, I forgot...nevermind..."

I must be hearing things, or perhaps I should say smelling them. I thought there was a whiff of gloating there ...

[T Town Jake]

62. What are you on about, pray tell?...

...oh, you mean the unemployed 20-year-old kid?

I'm sure that has some vague, witty meaning to you in some way, but I could really care less what it is.

I must be hearing things, or perhaps I should say smelling them. I thought there was a whiff of gloating there ...

Uh-huh. The arrogance of this post is only exceeded by its ignorance, and that's par for the course. Sniff a little harder, and perhaps you'll pick up a whiff of the normal contempt any decent person has for smarmy innuendos that never quite seem to make an open and honest point. It reminds me ever so much of what Democratic nominee Adlai Stevenson said about Richard Nixon during the 1956 presidential campaign: "a land of slander and scare, the land of sly innuendo, the poison pen, the anonymous phone call, and hustling, pushing, shoving; the land of smash and grab and anything to win." That pretty much sums up how the gun control crowd operates down here in the Gungeon; and, to coin a phrase, you're welcome to the scummy rhetorical company & practices of Richard Milhouse Nixon...

[iverglas]

63. oooh!

"... smarmy innuendos that never quite seem to make an open and honest point."

Lookie there! Somebody's been paying attention when I speak. Imitation and flattery and all that, eh?

"a land of slander and scare, the land of sly innuendo, the poison pen ..."

That's this land here all right.


Then why would you be so emotional and opinionated on gun control (or lack of), laws in the United States?

The oft-repeated not-quite allegation (I love 'em when they come as "questions") of something that no one has ever actually produced evidence of ... no matter how many times the request has been made.

She is an admitted abettor to desertion, and from her thinly veiled gloating, probably other crimes as well.

Well now, there's an honest, straightforward, manly kinda ... innuendo.

Im not sure our little canadian instigator would care ...

"Instigator"? Of what, I wonder?

I would guess that the only time she, and people like her, will ever give you the respect you deserve ...

Ah, but will he bet on that? -- or even just come out and say it. Guessing is just so ... consequence-free.

Pacifist or not? I believe we know the answer.

The suspense is killing me. What's the answer?? I can't seem to find it.

(Of course, I'm still agape at the idea of "pacifist" being used as an insult. Wot a funny old world. Or dank and dingy little corner of the world, anyhow.)

... that canadian moron. She is an enemy of our country, sure as hell.

Well okay. Nobody can characterize *that* one as "innuendo".

Everyone's a pacifist between wars. It's like being a vegetarian between meals.

Hmm. I gather this was directed at me, ridiculous as it is. And I kinda suspect that it's an innuendo-ish kind of insinuation that some people don't have the courage of their convictions, or the moral strength to act on convictions rather than self-interest. Nothing to do with me, that one, but certainly not a kind word about pacifists.

Your attitude is similar to that of another who used to hang around here.

Ah, bravely speaking ... well, not ill, I guess, just "speaking" ... of the absent. Very straightforward, very straightforward indeed.

I thought you better, iverglas, than to stoop to personally attacking individual U.S. soldiers over a disagreement with U.S. policy. I guess I was wrong.

Well, I guess I can see why some prefer innuendo. When one decides to make an actual statement, it's apparently just so difficult for one to make a true one.

Have I missed any? If I have not provided satisfaction, I'd be happy to move on to a neighbouring thread.


"I'm sure that has some vague, witty meaning to you in some way, but I could really care less what it is."

Yes, but funny how you don't actually ask what it is. Or is your memory really that short? It didn't seem to be at 3:06 Wednesday morning. You managed to get that little ode to moi almost verbatim from the first time around. March of this year, it was, as I recall, in some other place.

Did you enjoy your excursion to the Canada forum? Funny ... you don't look Canadian ... and you don't actually seem to have been there for the scenery.

Just how much less could you care?

[mosin]

28. "monstrous crime"

I thought you better, iverglas, than to stoop to personally attacking individual U.S. soldiers over a disagreement with U.S. policy.

I guess I was wrong.

[iverglas]

29. I'd say you're wrong

about probably several bazillion things.

But since I haven't personally attacked anyone "over a disagreement with US policy", I guess your opinion about me for doing it ... well, isn't "wrong", it's just worthless bullshit.

If you need any more assistance, just buzz.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wickerman]

76. Well, now, not to rain on everyone's parade, but this is now locked

I know everyone was having a grand ol' time using this forum to express everything down here that you would get mobbed on if you expressed same "up there", but I this has clearly run its course.

Lets let this end here, 'kay?