Democrats! *Become* gun owners!!!

[benburch]

If we were as well armed as they are, do you think they would feel like they could push us around like this?

[Bronco69]

1. That's a good point! n/t

[Art_from_Ark]

2. If I were still living in the US,

I would probably be a gunowner by now

[Peak_Oil]

3. Gun control is using BOTH HANDS!!!

Nothing wrong with owning firearms.

[Trumanway]

43. True, there is nothing wrong with owning firearms.

However, those considering purchasing firearms should be educated about them and the laws governing firearms.

They should have training in safe practice and safe storage.

They should have a purpose for the firearm.

They should discuss with their family the rules regarding firearms and see that children are given gun safety training.

All this should be done before the purchase.

No one should purchase a firearm because they are angry, or upset, or displeased with whatever in their life.

Guns are tools that are entirely dependent on their possessor to be put to good use, buying one to prove a political point is not a good use. Recreation and protection are.

[number6]

45. good point

;)

[no_hypocrisy]

4. Brilliant gesture to the far right. Dems can own guns too.

I'm gun-control myself, but I like the idea of getting a yellow card and being on record that I can go out, get a firearm, and protect myself from far right gun nuts as leverage. It's the message, not the gun.

[slackmaster]

5. Are you saying that Democrats aren't well armed right now?

Lots of us own firarms. Some of us own lots of them.

IMO we're nowhere near the point where what kinds of weapons individuals own makes any difference in the distribution of power.

[SnowGoose]

6. Arm the homeless.

Yea, I know, the right to bear arms only applies to people who have enough money to have a place to live.

Boy, wouldn't it change the dynamics, though?

[NorthernSpy]

11. there is "real" fake organization called Arm the Homeless

They've held Christmastime donation drives, complete with the obligatory guy in a santa suit. It's not a real charity, but the media and officialdom have fallen for the hoax again and again.

The whole point behind the stunt has been to get people to think about what security is who is entitled seek it. Gun ownership has broad general acceptance in this society as both a personal right and a deterent to crime. And the homeless are far more likely to become victims of crime than most people are.

And yet, the public response to Arm the Homeless has been fierce and condemnatory. Unless all of the people who get hysterical over the prospect of homeless folks receiving gifts of guns and ammo are consistent supporters of gun-control, then there are some pro-rkbaers who perhaps don't really believe what they claim to believe.

Sometimes, you have to hit people from an unexpected angle to get past the automatic responses and get a glimpse of what underlying assumptions and sentiments really drive their thinking.


http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/pranks/homeless.html

[alwynsw]

7. Since the cannon was invented

it's been impossible, or nearly so, for the populace to match with any government.

OTOH, I feel that everyone should be armed according to their own needs and preferences.

[MrSandman]

9. Yeah, but it has helped out in times of civil unrest...

While I don't think the experience of LA will be repeated, what might happen if the US defaults due to a high debt.

I honestly don't see martial law, but the people may become more dependent on themselves, for food, shelter, and the amenities of life.

Medicines will take the biggest hit, IMHO.

[LinuxUser]

20. Nonsense

"Since the cannon was invented it's been impossible, or nearly so, for the populace to match with any government." Umm, have you not been following recent events in Iraq? Here we have a small group of people armed with 50-year-old rifles (AKs) holding off the world's only super power. What they do have is the will to win and broad support, and some AKs. That's all it takes. Read Mao's book on guerilla warfare; he confirms that the most important thing is the will to win and popular support. Strangely enough, even during the US occupation, and under Sadam, Iraqis had more gun rights than we have here.

"OTOH, I feel that everyone should be armed according to their own needs and preferences."

I agree with that. If you don't like guns, don't own one.

[Factoid]

23. Incorrect.

Up until the mid 1800's, most CANNON in the United States were owned by Citizens, not the government. They (mostly the merchant class) would loan theirs to government forces in time of need, such as the revolutionary war, war of 1812, and on through the Civil war. It wasn't untill post civil war that this practice ceased, mainly due to the merchant class no longer needing to mount cannons on their own vessels to defend against piracy.

[FatSlob]

8. already have a ton of them.

[MrSandman]

10. Sen 500lbs. this way...nt

[slackmaster]

12. If you get a gun, please practice safe storage

I practice very safe storage - in my brand-new shiny 1,200 pound, 6-foot high safe bolted to the floor. It cost me a little over $3,000, delivered and installed.



This provides many benefits:

- Protects my gun collection, other valuables, and financial records from fire and theft,

- Provides a potential tax writeoff for the part used for papers (ask your tax preparer about this),

- Exempts me from having to buy a useless trigger lock with every gun I acquire (California state requirement), and

- Gives me peace of mind that nobody is going to shoot down an airplane with my long-range target rifle.

[Spiffarino]

35. It's a great idea if you can afford it

Me, I have to use the cheap little cable lock that came with the Mossberg. It's a start but I'd love a safe.

[CarinKaryn]

13. Yeah. Might makes right.

I'm gonna buy a bigger gun than the shrub's.

:puke:

[goju]

14. Hmmm

While I dont agree with arming oneself because he/she doesnt like the outcome of an election, or because one's tin foil hat is on a little tight in anticipation of a "duel" with the evil ones, I dont think that you should equate gun ownership with "might", despite what the poster said.

[iverglas]

15. damn funny thing, though

I dont think that you should equate gun ownership with "might", despite what the poster said.

The poster actually was replying to WHAT THE POSTER SAID. And actually did respond to it.

Strange concept, eh?

[goju]

16. And it would appear

That Carin has bought into that line of reasoning. Hence, my suggestion to use more sense when discussing firearm ownership.

Indeed a very strange concept

[iverglas]

17. "And it would appear"

... to a deaf bat on acid ...

[goju]

18. Yet evidently not apparent

to a kanuck, acid, or not.

[FatSlob]

26. Nonsensical tortillas are in the frying pan.

:wtf:

[Columbia]

19. How about gun owners become Democrats?

I wouldn't mind there being both more Democrats and gun owners. The only problem is that Dems have gotten a bad rep (whether deserved or not is for another thread) of being gun grabbers. I think we are slowly turning the tide around, but we still have a ways to go.

[LinuxUser]

21. That rep is based in reality

The Dems have been practicing "gun grabbing" whenever they have had the opportunity, causing them much harm. I (and many others) believe that the Dems lost control of Congress as a result of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban. I (and many others) believe that, once they got control of Congress, Republicans did enough redistricting (gerrymandering) to entrench their control and the Dems will a hell of a time fighting this.

So the chain of events is this:

The Dems blow all their political capital to pass an utterly pointless law that bans useless, obsolete features like bayonete lugs on rifles, which also grandfathers existing guns so there's no shortage of them, and which sunsets in ten years.

By passing this totally ineffective law (even HCI admits the AWB had no real impact on crime) they then lost control of Congress.

By losing control of Congress they lost control of redistricting.

By losing control of redistricting they have lost even more seats in the recent election.

This whole chain of events seems like self-destructive, pointless hubris to me. I hope they won't repeat it.

NRA: 4 million members (voters)
HCI: 100,000 members (voters)

The Dems need to do some math here.

The Kerry campaign was a disaster, and I'm convinced that a big part of it is that everyone knows he's never seen a gun ban he didn't like, and that kind of stance just won't get him the votes he needs in Ohio. Sure, it gets him California and NY but he already had those.

Dems, please get some strategy! Don't blow everything over bayonet lugs!

[Romulus]

22. I thought redistricting was a state level thing? (eom)

[mosin]

25. It is a state level thing.

But the Democrats have lost control of many state legislatures. And in the great bipartisan tradition of gerry-mandering, the Repubs have entrenched their House majority and strengthened their state legislative majorities in many states. The 2010 elections will be key in many states. The more state legislatures we can (re-)capture before the 2010 census numbers come out, the better.

[Mohammed]

24. AK-47

I do have two AK-47, and my brother even got some hand grenades and a mortar from Kosovo.

[NorthernSpy]

30. sure ya do, bubba...

:eyes:

[iverglas]

32. and amazingly

He seems to have blown himself up with one of them.

Of course, I'll admit to helping ...

[Union Thug]

47. I believe the AK47... part..

but as for the grenades, it's possible I suppose.

But really, I just wanted to say that I own a Romanian WASR-10 AK47 as well as three SKS's and I'm hardly a 'bubba'. Oh, the stereotypes that get thrown around in here (I'm guilty too, I admit it).

[Van23]

27. Great suggestion!!

I was mocked quite a bit before the election because of my strong Second Amendment leanings. Doesn't seem so stupid now, does it? I strongly suggest liberals develop a more generous view of the Second Amendment and get armed.

P.S. Yes, I did vote for Kerry!


www.liberalswithguns.com

[Spiffarino]

37. This is a battle worth fighting

...within the party. We have to get back to our roots and the Second Amendment is one of the most basic. No less a figure than the Democratic party's founding father, Thomas Jefferson, was a major proponent of it. Why we have let this issue slip away from us is beyond me. You have only to look at what's happening to our country now to understand that Jefferson was right.

Yes, guns are dangerous in the wrong hands (unattended children, the insane, the suicidal) but they are a necessary evil. Jefferson, Madison, and Hamilton knew this.

[solinvictus]

28. Firearms and personal freedoms.....

I really can't believe that anyone would discount the cause-and-affect relationship between gun ownership and personal freedoms. I get tired of hearing the defeatist "the government has {insert name of vehicle/weapon here} and it's impossible to defend yourself". I guess the Iraqis didn't get that memo as it's hellish over there for our troops. I don't envy them because ultimately, it's decided by ground troops facing off with small arms and grenades. Even if our troops win decisively now, you can bet a good portion of the guerillas simply faded into the desert to come back. I also don't think our own troops would crack down on fellow US citizens without a massive revolt.

There are plenty of options for those who wish to be gun owners and have a limited budget. Right now, surplus Russian and Warsaw Pact Mosin-Nagant bolt actions are well under $100 with cans of military cartridges for this rifle for $40/440 rounds. Keep in mind that thsi cartridge is about as powerful as our venerable 30/06 and can be purchased dirt cheap. Local dealers may have pump-action shotguns for about $100 or so with many other rifle options as well. I'm not so much on pistols at this point because a pistol won't protect your freedom, only rifles, shotguns, and carbines can do that. Your needs will differ if you live in a rural, urban, or sub-urban area. Here are some quick recommendations:
Urban: Either an SKS/Kalashnikov or AR-15 carbine; maybe even a Mosin-Nagant Russian M44 carbine. Another option would be a pump shotgun in either 12 or 20 gauge.
Sub-urban: Largely the same, except supplement with a good scoped rifle.
Rural: A bolt action rifle, preferably of a military caliber where large amounts of surplus ammunition can be purchased. I'd recommend a Savage 110 or Remington 700 in .308. If your budget allows, add a carbine from the above list to it as well with a decent pump shotgun. Here are some pricing guidelines that may differ per region:

Mosin-Nagant rifle or carbine: $85-100 depending upon condition.

SKS made by Zastava in Yugoslavia: $150-200
SKS, Chinese: $150-300
SKS, Russian: $200-500

Kalshnikov clone, including Egyptian Maadi, Romanian SAR series, and Norinco MAK-90: $300-500, depending upon caliber, condition, and manufacturer. The best among these is the Chinese, with the Romanian second, the Maadi last. The vast majority will be in 7.62x39, which is cheap, with 30 round magazines being about $10 each or so. Watch out for machining quality on the Maadi, such as tool marks or canted sights.

AR-15. There are a lot of price discrepencies among AR-15 carbines and it does reflect quality differences from manufacturers. Colt and Bushmaster, which are the best, run from $700-$1500, depending upon accessories and such. Armalites are $600-900 and Olympics run $600-900. I'd opt for the Colt if at all possible.

Bolt actions: The Remington 700 or Savage 110 in .308 are great choices. The Savage is easier on the wallet for a quality rifle. A Savage .308 Police Tactical can be had used for less than $500. The Remington will run over $500 new, used prices depending on the seller. My other choices would be either a Ruger M77 or a Winchester Model 70.

In a nutshell, I believe that if you don't opt to take measures to defend yourself, you certainly can't expect others to do it for you. With the Patriot Act and an increasingly theocratic state, I'm worried about my personal freedoms.

[NorthernSpy]

31. this one little thing I was thinking about recently:

I also don't think our own troops would crack down on fellow US citizens without a massive revolt.

I hope you're right, but...

Me, I think that if they were ever ordered to shoot us, most of them would probably do it. As Stanley Milgram's experiments demonstrated, most people ultimately do as authority tells them, regardless of whether they want to or not.

http://www.stanleymilgram.com/milgram.html


:(

[Union Thug]

29. Whatta ya mean 'become'?

My family has been progressive/liberal/democrat for at least as far back as FDR and we've ALWAYS had guns in the house.

I think the stereotype of the gun-hating lib/dem is mostly BS. The part of the stereotype that is true seems like a recent development. My grandfather was a collector, my father is hunter/gun owner. I own guns, as well.

[arkie dem]

33. Been armed for years

wouldn't have it any other way. Lets say I've never trusted the opposing side.

[aikoaiko]

36. I agree, but

the biggest vocal anti-gunners are democratic leaders.

(whoops, this was supposed to be attached to the post about it being a stereotype that all democrats are anti-gun)

[Union Thug]

46. There are some vocal, well known Dem leaders, true...

I'm not sure what to do about that, other than to just keep talking about what it means to be an 'old school' or 'traditional' liberal versus the stereotype construct that the Conservatives have successfully vilified and painted as representing all of us.

We aren't all pacifists, anti-gun, etc. The conservatives were successful in vilifying an entire ideology based on a stereotype. We just need to keep hammering back. I think this is a time to become mean, aggressive and increasingly unrelenting in how we approach the political debate. We can't afford to be christlike. Never turn the other cheek. Instead, use a 2x4 and swing hard.

[Spiffarino]

34. Just purchased a pump-action Mossberg 12-gauge

Face it: If gun-nutty freepers are the only ones armed, we're in big trouble. If the revolution is about to start, I won't stand idly by and let my fundamental freedoms be taken away by fascist theocrats.

OK, ok. I have to admit it's mostly because it's really fun to shoot clays! Wheeeee!!!!:7

[arkie dem]

38. I like the sound a pump shotgun makes when

racking the slide. It's a great deterent.

[Spiffarino]

39. Me too

I wanted to do that to the people who were stealing my yard signs. The only sound more satisfying than racking the slide would have been hearing them crapping in their pants. Sadly, they stopped doing it after I bought the shotgun.

I wonder who told them...;)

[arkie dem]

40. LOL!!!

If you can hear them crapping your hearing is better than mine. I had the old Rem. 870 ready for those RW cleptomaniacs.

[Spiffarino]

42. Oh you are one lucky Arkansan...

The Rem 870 is a beauty. My buddy has a new one and it's as straight a shooter as there ever was. He kicks my tail at clays.

My other good friend shoots a Winchester that his father bought in the 1930s. He's had it refurbed and it's gorgeous. All original except for a few of the usual wear-and-tear items, it shoots like he bought it yesterday. No clay pigeon survives its wrath.

This one looks identical, though I'm not sure if it's the exact model:



;)

[arkie dem]

44. Mine isn't so much a beauty as it is

functional. I actually won it in a raffle about 15yrs ago. It's the plain jane Express. I did have the barrel cut back to 21" and rethreaded for Tru Choke tubes. It makes a nice home defense weapon, and have shot a few clays with it.

The old Win model 12's are quite collectible. The one in the pic I believe is an earlier model. Not much up to speed on scatter guns, centerfire bolt guns are more to my liking.

[Retired AF Dem]

48. The pic above

is a Win model 97.

[EstimatedProphet]

41. I already am armed

Got 4 guns, and somewhere on the order of 35 or more hand weapons-swords mostly, with some other things thrown in.
And it helps that I saber fence/practice katana, so I know which end to pick up...:)