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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:24 PM
Original message
The future of gun control policy?
Where is the party going with this issue? I think it can be argued that gun control is certainly a wedge issue with the R's getting more traction right now, with help from groups like the NRA. Where will we go in the future? Where should we go?

Im not sure how many Ohioans or Pennsylvanians voted strictly on gun rights, but Im quite sure Kerry's faux hunting trips didnt resonate with the gun toters. What's next? It would appear that a better approach is needed, but what is it?

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aden_nak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. There are plenty of non-political reasons to rethink gun control.
DANGER: BLATANT REPOST AHOY!

And, incidentally, this is coming from someone who does not own a gun, has never had a strong interest in guns, and has really only fired a gun a few times in his life (in other words, I don't have a wall of shotguns in my basement or the Second Amendment tatooed on my ass). I just think it's funny that with any other social problem, drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling. . . we agree that prohibiting it only works to a point, if at all.

We understand that treating the SYMPTOM does not make it go away. And we also understand that the current prohibitions are often the cause of so much of the suffering surrounding said activity. I think the problem is that no one understands WHY guns are such a difficult issue in America. No one understands why we have so much more gun violence than other nations that have just as many people, just as many guns, and just as bloody a history. So like Freepers in the Clinton Library, we're seething with blind rage, and want to lash out at anything within arm's length.

Now, I think there need to be SOME restrictions. I think we need to completely re-classify what we consider to be an "assault weapon" because our current system is absolutely stupid. A weapon can go on and off the "assault weapon" list depending on whether it has a scope, a laser sight, a flash muzzle, or a retractable stock. And I DO believe in restricting military hardware, including what people generally think of as "assault rifles".

The truth is that most Americans agree with that, as well. Hell, even amongst the NRA, there is strong support for restrictions of military hardware. Unfortunately, that's the silent majority of gun owners. Well, the funny thing about silent majorities is that they may not speak up, but they sure as hell do seem to vote.

Maybe it's asking a lot of America to want a reasonable law that appeases the vast majority of citizens while simultaneously protecting those same citizens from excess harm. Maybe that's an unreachable ideal. I've always thought of the Democratic party as the party that brings impossible ideals within the reach of every American. Maybe I'm wrong. I certainly hope not.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Interesting thoughts
When you say military hardware and assault weapons, what definition are you using? I ask only because there are many many well meaning but ingorant people who believe assault weapons have something to do with automatic weapons. Military hardware, to me, means automatic weapons. To that end, I agree with you. Assault weapons however, are not an issue with me.
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aden_nak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Primarily fully automatic rifles. But that's not the whole definition.
Edited on Mon Nov-08-04 03:55 PM by aden_nak
Like I said, we need to re-classify that term entirely. Instead of being concerned about how many accessories a particular weapon has, we should be concerned with its rate of fire, with its capacity to puncture body armor, with the total amount of energy (in joules, perhaps) released per round. But this sort of thing should be the EXCEPTION to the rule, not the rule itself.

Maybe it's a matter of spin. Maybe it's a matter of public relations. I can deal with that, I suppose. But I think it's more of a core ideology. You know the slogan, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Of course, the response is, "Yeah, but guns make it a whole lot easier." And the problem is that BOTH of those things are true. I see gun violence the same way I see other crime. If you improve the conditions under which people live, they will be far less likely to resort to gun violence.

And like any other form of prohibition, it only has a chance of working in a "complete lockdown" situation. Good luck disarming every American in the nation. And even in that case, all you really do is create a black market for weapons.

I don't believe we even have a good political leg to stand on, since, well. . . gun control groups are still going to vote Democratic. They'll do the quick "lesser of two evils" calculation. Though if we're to believe what we read, those gun control moms are the same moms that voted for Chimpy McFlightsuit because he's "tough on terror". So what demographic ARE we losing?
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Good points n/t
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. vegetation and fishies
I appreciate that your comments are likely meant sincerely, but there are some serious flaws.

And like any other form of prohibition, it only has a chance of working in a "complete lockdown" situation. Good luck disarming every American in the nation.

Good luck ... to whom? I don't know of anyone, let alone anyone serious in the Democratic Party, proposing such a thing.

The response to other social problems is not generally to prohibit the products or activities associated with the problems; why would it be the response to firearms crime/harm? Why would a free and democratic society even attempt to completely eliminate something that many people have legitimate needs and uses for, if there are other ways of addressing the problems associated with the activity or the possession of the thing, by them or others, that strike a reasonable balance between individual interests and the public interest?

Alcohol isn't prohibited any more -- but the sale and use of alcohol certainly are heavily regulated.

Instead of being concerned about how many accessories a particular weapon has, we should be concerned with its rate of fire, with its capacity to puncture body armor, with the total amount of energy (in joules, perhaps) released per round.

I wouldn't disagree that those are all reasonable things to be concerned about -- but I think you've fallen for a very successful disinformation campaign when it comes to these "accessories".

I've never seen any evidence that the intent of the previous assault weapons ban in the US was to ban the accessories, or to ban any firearms because of the accessories. I really thought it fairly obvious that the legislation referred to the accessories because they were characteristic of the firearms that were in issue.

As an analogy, one could prohibit the sale of beer by banning the sale of beverages packed in brown glass containers -- a format that is (or used to be) characteristic of beer.

Obviously, such bans can be got around, with varying degrees of ease, by eliminating the characteristics in question, leaving an item or substance that is just as undesirable as its predecessor unbanned. Beer can be sold in tins. Firearms can be made that are exactly like banned firearms except that they don't have the characteristic in question.

Now, I'd point out that this appears to me to be the case for some of the characteristics in question, but not necessarily all. Someone will immediately correct me if I have failed to take sufficient interest in the US assault weapons ban to recite all its features by heart, but I gather that magazine size was one of the criteria by which the affected firearms were distinguished from others. And a high magazine capacity isn't just characteristic of a firearm that it was deemed undesirable to have in general circulation, it was a specific reason why the firearm was deemed undesirable.

In both cases, in any event, the concern could not fairly be characterized as a "concern with accessories".

I see gun violence the same way I see other crime. If you improve the conditions under which people live, they will be far less likely to resort to gun violence.

As a very broad generalization, that is undoubtedly true.

However, there are all sorts of aspects of firearms harm that it does not address.

Accidental or intentional harm done by children with access to firearms, to themselves or others, is one such aspect. The actions of children in those cases have little to do with the conditions in which they live (in terms of economic quality of life, opportunity, the usual suspects), and it in fact doesn't matter how privileged children are -- if they have inappropriate access to firearms, there will still be dead kids (and other victims).

The use of firearms by those law-abiding gun owner types is another problematic area, and one that is also unlikely to be affected by a general enhancement of socioeconomic conditions in the society. Alcoholism and spousal abuse are not specific to the poor or desperate (making them, themselves, further examples of problems that aren't going to be universally cured by enhancing economic justice).

But a whole lot of people are injured and killed by people in lawful possession of firearms, not using the firearms to facilitate any crime or as part of any part of a course of criminal conduct, who just use them to harm or terrorize people in their entourage. They aren't "resorting to gun violence" -- they are using firearms to achieve a purpose, that they have adopted for no reason associated with socioeconomic status or involvement in crime as an alternative to getting a job to pay the mortgage.

Measures that could reduce these kinds of harms are available, and don't call for a society as a whole to be overhauled ... or require that everybody sit around waiting for that to happen and doing nothing in the meantime.


On your basic question, the future of firearms control in the US Democratic Party, I'm seeing pretty much the same premise as I'm seeing among people who want that party to abandon the rhetoric of rights on the issue of abortion or same-sex marriage.

The premise is basically that a political platform exists to attract votes, and that if some part of it ceases to attract votes it should perhaps be jettisoned for that reason alone.

Seems to me that the reasons why the policy is in the platform in the first place have to be seriously considered before any jettisoning decision is made.

And maybe your traditional firearms-control-supporting constituencies would still vote for you if you advocated a handgun in every pocket. But what happens if you add opposition to same-sex marriage to that policy; and support for restrictions on access to abortion; and what the hell, support for the occupation of Iraq?

At what point do you have either
(a) the straw that broke the back of the constituency that would have tolerated one or two or three of these betrayals, or
(b) enough accumulated members of the various groups who have been betrayed, by enough of the various betrayals, who won't keep voting for you that you've lost more than you've gained anyhow?

If a party is going to start adopting platforms based on popularity, I can think of several things more likely to get more votes, on balance, than abandoning firearms control. Abandon women's reproductive rights; what are rights-loving women going to do, vote Republican?


Hmm, "aden_nak" -- any relation to the "Adanac"s who seem to own so many businesses where I'm at? ;)

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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Huh???
Alcohol isn't prohibited any more -- but the sale and use of alcohol certainly are heavily regulated.

How many forms must one fill out and how many backgroud checks must one of legal age to purchase alcoholic beverages sub,it to?

CALL GUINESS!!!

Our very own grammar nazi ended a sentence with a preposition!
Hmm, "aden_nak" -- any relation to the "Adanac"s who seem to own so many businesses where I'm at?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. tsk
"... any relation to the 'Adanac's who seem to own so many businesses where I'm at?"
"Our very own grammar nazi ended a sentence with a preposition!"

It was far, far worse than that, I'm afraid. No points for missing the point for you.

One is not "at there". One is "there". That is, a linguistically correct speaker would say "where I am", never "where I am at". The position of the preposition in the sentence is wholly irrelevant when it should not be at there at all.

The sentence "That is where I am at" is incorrect not because of the terminal preposition, but because the preposition itself is inserted incorrectly: "That is where I am" is correct.

A linguistically correct speaker who says such a thing must be presumed to be deliberately speaking in an incorrect idiom, for effect.

Glad I could help. Figured out what "Adanac" is yet?


"How many forms must one fill out and how many backgroud checks must one of legal age to purchase alcoholic beverages sub,it to?"

You folks just don't have any sense at all, do you?

How many people have been killed by someone aiming a bottle of gin at them?

Gosh, it looks like your analogy fell flat.

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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. A little something for you. (You can never have too many.)
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. That is hysterical.
:wow:
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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Happy to be of service! n/t
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. ROFL
right-click > save as..
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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I stole it for just such occasions. n/t
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UNIXcock Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. "what demographic ARE we losing?", I'll tell you
... my democrat dad and two brothers are so old-schooled RKBA die-hards that they refused to vote for Kerry. They didn't vote Bush either, but they were committed not to vote into office a (perceived IMO) so called "gun-grabber".
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LinuxUser Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. I understand what you're trying to say, but...
Capacity to puncture body armor: Basically, no pistol rounds go through body armor, and all rifle rounds go through it. If you want to ban guns that can puncture armor, you have to ban all rifles. And bows and arrows too, I believe.

Rate of fire: Anything semi-auto has a high rate of fire. Any semi auto should be able to fire two or more times per second. I can shoot a pump-action shotgun two or three times in a second. So... regulating rate of fire is going to be a challenge.

Joules of energy: Again, it sounds reasonable, but... a whimpy 22lr cartridge has no problem killing. Are we going to say guns must have less energy than a 22lr? We're talking about airsofts and bb guns at that point. Also, the highest energy guns are big hunting rifles, which are very very rarely used in crime. Ever heard of a criminal packing a 300 Win Mag? Neither have I.

You're absolutely right that regulating accessories like bayonets, etc, is just stupid. Ever heard of a criminal wasting time with a bayonet? Neither have I.

What would make a lot more sense would be closing the gun-show loophole and otherwise regulating transfers in a uniform way that includes background checks. That's really the best approach. Worrying about joules, bayonets and magazine capacity won't work. They're ALL deadly, ALL of them. Guns can't be made "safe". Their danger is inherent in the physics: a little bit of lead going at those speeds is lethal and that's all there is to it.
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ironrooster Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. democrats need to arm ourselves
before we are taken off to the Repuke Re-education camps. ;)
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well lets not get crazy here
Lets have a real discussion on where we want to go with gun control policy. Hysteria or gun buying crusades aside, we should focus on what the future of gun control will be.
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jtb33 Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. My opinion is to...
just let them have it their way with the "gun control". It accomplishes a few things: (1) takes away a dividing issue for us in the south, and (2) if things really start to get bad regarding a drastic increase in gun violence, it was the R's who did it.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. I think our gun control policy should be...
that violent felons should not be allowed to own firearms.

That should be it.

IMO anything more is infringing on the 2nd amendment.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Violent felons...
...should be in jail.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
11. Leave it to the states,
maintaining current level of federal regs, or, if we were in power, pass an outright national ban on OWNERSHIP of hand guns. I believe this would cause the SCOTUS to overturn the ban and say that regulation is a largely state function. After such a ruling, gun owning union members et al. would not be as concerned with the anti-gun views of national candidates.

This is very much like what Roe v. Wade did for the Republicans: They can espouse anti choice to their constituent base, but people in the 'burbs are unworried because of the protection their choice is afforded by virtue of Roe v. Wade.
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-04 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
12. I would like to see most laws restricting ownership repealed.
Exceptions include: instant background checks, and purchasing must be done through an FFL. Otherwise, they can pretty much all go.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Jeez!
Boy you get rid of all those regulations, NFA & '86 restrictions, and you'll drive the cost of a full auto Sten down to a few hundred bucks, where an open market would probably put it..

<sarcasm on>
You'll really piss off Dick Cheney too with his full auto collection being de-valued by several thousand percent overnight.
<sarcasm off>

Me? I like the idea.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. All guns for noncriminal, noncrazy adult citizens


Still my favorite position on gun control.

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Bad Words Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. That's not a repeal
As it is, you don't have to purchase from an FFL - that would be an added restriction.
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