LA Democrats: This is a call for action

[Peak_Oil]

OK, this is my first attempt at any kind of organized political activity. I'm very interested in advancing the interests of gun owners in the LA area. To get the ball rolling, I started up a Yahoo group for Democratic gun owners. If you're a gun owner, this is in our collective best interest. Let's do something positive!

I propose a group to do a monthly shoot at the Angeles Range (my favorite) that has trap, silhouette, skeet, rifle, and long-range rifle ranges. Also, let's contact the city council, the Mayor, Boxer, and any other political figures we can think of to lobby our interests. I'll bring the envelopes and stamps, let's get busy!

I belong to another group that has an NRA certified instructor out at the range on a montly basis. He's a really friendly guy who will help the newbies learn how to be safe and how to shoot properly. Every time I go with him I learn something new. There's been a lot of debate on this site about how to put the Dems in the lead in the next election. This is one way to get 79,999,999 more votes in the Democratic party in the next four years.

This is worth doing! This could be the single issue that would pull a certain group of potential Democratic voters into our corner. I know, I know, CA is locked up for the Dems, but you never know. How would you like to see our PRK loosen up on gun control a little? I can't buy a Black Widow, which I'd love to have, because California isn't friendly to certain models of handguns. Why? Let's get together on this and take some action. When we do a good job on this, we could be a part of the vanguard of the Democratic party in reaching out to a new group of potential Democrats. I go shooting at least once a month anyway, why not do it in a group?

It's my hope that getting gun owners on the side of the Democratic party is the thing that will swing the next election to the good guys. There are certainly a hell of a lot of us.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LAdemgunowners

[LinuxUser]

1. This is a great idea

I'm so sick of the pointless gun laws we have here. Why is it that a certain kind of handgun is available here, but if the finish is different, it's not legal? How does that make us more safe? Also, if the safety approved handgun list is about safety, why is it that law enforcement is exempt from it? Shouldn't they have access to only the safest equipment? Or does the list exist just to harass gun manufacturers and purchasers?

I'll join. We need to get rid of these stupid laws and also we need to either reform Boxer and Feinstein, or replace them.

[Wonk]

2. You're actually in favor of fingerprint resistant finishes?

Yet another pro-criminal-element gun nut here on DU ... great :eyes:

[LinuxUser]

3. Finishes

I hope that's sarcasm... but maybe I should explain a little bit better: CA has this brilliant law on the books that says that every model of handgun sold here must be on an "approved" list. Unfortunately for us here in the Golden State, many manufacturers have different model numbers for the same gun with different finishes. For example, the SigARMS GSR (http://www.sigarms.com/products/gsr.asp) has two different finish options: one is "satin stainless", and it has part #1911-45-S, and the other is in a black polymer finish they call Nitron, and it has part #1911-45-B. The only difference between these two is the color; one has this sprayed-on black polymer coat, and the other doesn't. But because they have different part numbers, each one must go through the whole process to get on the CA-approved list (http://justice.hdcdojnet.state.ca.us/safeguns/safeguns_new.taf) and SigARMS hasn't spent the time or money to get the -B model on yet. Absolutely the same gun except for the color. Both will show fingerprints equally well, of course. Talk about stupid laws.

I assume everyone knows that there's no such thing as a "fingerprint resistant finish"; they can lift fingerprints off nearly anything that 's flat and isn't a liquid these days, including materials like tree bark, paper and cloth. Any gun that has smooth surfaces is going to show fingerprints without any trouble. Guns are finished in stainless, nickel, chrome, polymer, bluing, and phosphate (Parkerized) and absolutely all of these finish options show fingerprints just fine. Take any gun with any of these finishes, put your finger on it, and look at it in the right light and you'll see the fingerprint. Maybe some "pebble-finish" grips might not show it, but that's just inherent in the idea that a grip has to be rough for it to be easy to get a good grip on it. Guns have plenty of flat surfaces. "Fingerprint-resistant finish" is a new one to me, though. Maybe that term belongs in the same urban-legend category as "cop-killer bullets" and "Glocks don't show up in x-rays" and such nonsense.

As for the safety-approved list... I wish gun manufacturers would try to lump more stuff into one model number to get around this law.

[Columbia]

4. Apparently you are not aware of California laws

Every manufacturer who wants to sell handguns in California must pay the state an exhorbitant fee (in the thousands of dollars) for each gun they sell to go through so-called certification tests. No matter that just about any modern firearm is capable of passing these tests or that a test is required for each model of a handgun even if the only difference is the type of finish (i.e. chrome vs. blued). What ends up happening is that many manufacturers will simply not submit their handguns for testing simply because due to the legal hoops and extortion they decide it just isn't worth the trouble. End result - fewer handguns, but not necessarily "safer" handguns, for sale (which is probably the desired effect anyway).

Thus, this is not a case of "another pro-criminal-element gun nut here on DU." I do believe you should unroll those eyes and give linuxuser an apology.

[LinuxUser]

5. Thank you Columbia...

I'm sure Wonk was just joking, or else repeating some other source that was ill-informed. Just to be sure, I just took out my Glock (http://www.glock.com), which has a typical dull black no-glare "combat" finish found on most high-quality self-defense weapons. I pressed my index finger on the top of the slide (similar to what would happen in normal handling of the gun) and sure enough, the fingerprint was visible to the naked eye if I angled it to the light correctly. It wasn't visible like a fingerprint on glass is visible, but it could be seen by my unaided eye. If I had better photography skills, I would post a photo of it here, just to nip in the bud any urban legends about "fingerprint resistant finishes".

Anyway, gun manufacturers don't sell guns to criminals. They do sell guns (lots of guns) to government agencies. Government contracts make up their "bread and butter" sales. SigARMS in my example just recently completed a sale of about $20mil worth of handguns to the DoHS. The concept that they could design a gun specifically for criminal use is hard to imagine, given that they are in business to make money, and their executives probably don't want to go to jail.

Anyone here in the LA area who doesn't know much about guns but would like to learn... drop me a message and I would be happy to take a few hours to teach ethical use of deadly force, basic gun safety, function, and marksmanship at a local range here.

[Peak_Oil]

11. What's a safe handgun, anyway?

This has always confused me. I always thought handguns were built to kill or stop. I wouldn't want one that shot nerf balls. What's the point?

I think a safe gun is one in the hands of someone trained in responsible use of firearms.

[Columbia]

12. An illusion

What is worse is legislation that has already been passed that allows only newly manufactured handguns that have loaded chamber indicators to be considered "safe."

Years ago, when anti-lock brakes were developed people thought the number of vehicle accidents would decrease. Unfortunately, this was not the case. Instead people drove more aggressively and with less caution, and more people became involved in accidents.

Like anti-lock brakes, this will probably result in people being more lax and complacent about firearms handling and thus more negligent discharges will probably occur.

Unintended consequences...

[Wonk]

14. Ah, so you're in favor of sharp spikes on all vehicle dashboards to

make them safer?

Gun nut "logic" at it's best :silly:

[Columbia]

15. Straw

Loaded chamber indicators do nothing to increase or decrease the lethality or "safety" of firearms.

They do, however, lull the user into falsely believing a weapon is not loaded and treating it as such, when they should always treat it as loaded.

[LinuxUser]

17. That's right

For a user with training and experience, the loaded chamber indicator may be somewhat valuable; it might help me clear a jam in the dark, for example. But, Rule #1 of gun safety is, "it's always loaded". A loaded chamber indicator might cause people to think Rule #1 is less important. I know that magazine interlocks had that effect. People started thinking "if there's no mag in there, it's not loaded." Wrong! "It's always loaded."

And yes, there are no safe guns. Guns are designed to stop an attack and they do that by causing as much damage to the target as possible. Wounds from long arms (rifles and shotguns) are usually fatal. Wounds from handguns are usually serious but not fatal. But they are all lethal and cause serious injury or death.

You can't add or remove features to a gun to make it safe. Taking off bayonet lugs (the Assault Weapons Ban) or adding junk like loaded chamber indicators doesn't change the fundamental reality that guns launch a little piece of lead with enough energy and speed to be fatal to a human being at a substantial range. That's just inherent in the physics, biology and technology. Nothing can change that. All these fights over features are just voodoo, handwaving, urban legends and so forth.

That said, I actually like the idea of a loaded chamber indicator on my gun, but that's because I understand what its role is: helping me know what's going on in the chamber without having to look at it. Doesn't change the rules of gun safety at all; the gun is always loaded. But, sometimes I would like to confirm that in the dark. If I hear glass breaking in the middle of the night, and pick up my gun from the drawer, I could do a quick tactile confirmation that it's loaded, and that would give me some reassurance. But that's all that loaded chamber indicators are good for.

[Billy Ruffian]

19. Of course guns are dangerous

That's why I have one for self defense!

(I'm with you, LinuxUser ... good posts)

[slackmaster]

6. I'm strongly in favor of fingerprint-resistant finishes

Their purpose is to keep the metal from corroding.

Wonk, I'll bet you didn't know that latent fingerprints show up on them just fine. Police can retrieve identifiable fingerprints from non-stick cooking utensils.

Yet another pro-criminal-element gun nut here on DU...

Yet another well-meaning DUer duped by hysterical anti-gun propaganda.

[Billy Ruffian]

18. Wonk wrote:

You're actually in favor of fingerprint resistant finishes?

Gee, all my firearms have a removable fingerprint proof (not resistant) finish.

It's called 'gloves'

[jody]

7. Suggest you read

2004 California Democratic Party Platform and consider becoming an activist within your local party group to change where appropriate your state's party platform that says:

QUOTE
End Violence Against Children, Young People and Their Families. Support full wrap-around services to abused and neglected children, including their families. Lower county social workers' caseloads to the same level that the state requires of publicly funded private programs. Ensure that children receive the same legal protection as adults. Make counseling available to all children with emphasis on the prevention, detection and treatment of child abuse to stop the cycle of violence against children. Provide armed and unarmed patrolling of public schools and public meeting areas for the safety of minors. Provide effective community-based law enforcement with an emphasis on prevention programs. Expand school-based training in non-violent conflict resolution and problem solving. Support programs which help break down prejudice and improve relations between law enforcement officials and youth. Enforce strong gun control laws and ban the sale of ammunition to minors. Effectively prosecute perpetrators of sex crimes against minors. Fully fund alternative sentencing programs for juvenile offenders. Support community education programs on the danger of hate crimes.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Support Responsible Gun Possession. We support efforts to require reasonable controls on weapons that are not used for legitimate hunting, sporting and self defense purposes. California must take the lead in continuing to support the federal ban on deadly assault weapons and eliminating the sale and manufacture of easily procured and hidden handguns. We support the prohibition of gun dealers operating from residential dwellings and strongly urge that all sales at gun show and sales between private parties in California conform to the same requirements as any licensed gun dealer. When a weapon used in a criminal act is obtained through a “straw buyer” (one who illegally provides a weapon to another), that provider should be found culpable as an accessory to the crime. We support maintaining the 10-day waiting period currently required for delivery of guns, the background checks for anyone who wants to purchase guns, the ban on flea market gun shows and internet gun sales. We support fighting all efforts to overturn the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban. We further support continued adequate funding at the national level for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF).

Support Handgun Safety. We must protect public safety by supporting reasonable laws that provide training for handgun owners, make handguns safer and keep guns out of the hands of our children. All guns stored where minors reside or visit should be locked up or have effective trigger locks properly maintained and installed.
UNQUOTE

[Peak_Oil]

10. This is what I'd like to change.

We support fighting all efforts to overturn the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban.

This is part of the problem. As an activist, I want to see this plank of the platform changed. I'd rather not support this position, so being active in the support of this plank would be counterproductive to me.

Waiting periods... they have their upsides and downsides. Straw man buyers should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law in my opinion. Eliminating the maufacture of easily procured and hidden handguns??? Horrible idea! Why would you want to disarm a small woman?

What I'd rather see, and I know this is probably opposed by gun rights supporters, is a criminal background check and a mental illness records review coupled with a good firearm training program as a prerequisite for firearm purchase. Once your background is checked and you've been trained in the responsible and safe use of firearms, you should be good to go. Buy whatever you want and go to a safe place to use it. Carry for self defense, go hunting, go target shooting, whatever. Get the education and training out there, though. That's the thing that's missing. That's just my personal take though, and I'm not sure I'd advocate changing the law on requiring a mental illness check. It's got potentially weird implications if somebody decides that being a Democrat is a mental illness.

As it is, the only requirement to purchase a handgun is a passing score on a 50-question test and no felony background. It's nice, but I'd like to see some kind of safety training in there, military and police excluded.

Another thing I'd like to see is to have the local police departments and military institutions offer training in the use and care of firearms. In a lot of cases, they're the experts.

[jody]

13. Excellent start. Suggest you and friends write a talking point paper

on why the sentence "We support fighting all efforts to overturn the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban" should be revised. Then get a petition signed by local Democratic party members, recruit them if necessary to join the party, and present your paper with petition to your local chapter.

Don't give up, be persistent because it will not happen over night but, doing something is more productive than complaining about a problem.

Good luck :hi:

[Peak_Oil]

20. Exactly! That's what I want to do!

Thus, this thread. And the yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LAdemgunowners, where such things will be debated, written about, and sent to the Powers that Be. I'm not talking about posting to a message board, this is meant to be a real live face to face action group.

I imagine this will be something that will start very slowly but will build with time. Thanks for your support and suggestion, I think we're on the same page.

[alwynsw]

8. May I join in if a shoot coincides with my regular visits to CA?

[Columbia]

9. Regular visits! Ha!

I'm still waiting for that 'regular' visit...

[alwynsw]

16. Well, I do get to Pendleton twicw a year

But now it's going to be San Diego. The kiddo got transferred.

[Wonk]

21. Excuse me while I laugh in your general direction for the response that

your sister thread (aka a dupe) to this one got in the California forum.

(*hears crickets*)

Of course, now that I've brought this to your guys attention I expect that we'll see lots of astroturfing over there too?

[Peak_Oil]

22. I know. Nothing.

I don't see a whole lot of support for this idea. Oh well. I'm carrying on anyway. Sooner or later I'll find other people who agree and are willing to take action.