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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 08:58 AM
Original message
Setting Up Palestinian Authority Leader Abbas
September/October 2005

Israeli peace activist Jeff Halper argues that Prime Minister
Sharon has accomplished all he set out to do 38 years ago, and the final
piece is to make Abbas his accomplice.

SETTING UP ABBAS

By Jeff Halper

With unlimited resources at his disposal, Sharon set out to establish irreversible “facts on the ground” that would preempt any process of negotiations. Supported by both Likud and Labor governments, he oversaw the establishment of some 200 settlements (almost 400 if you include the “outposts”) on land expropriated from Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. Today almost a half million Israelis live across the 1967 border. With financial backing of the Clinton Administration, a system of twenty-nine highways was constructed in the Occupied Territories to incorporate the settlements into Israel proper. In the meantime 96% of the Palestinians were locked into what Sharon calls ”cantons,” dozens of tiny enclaves, deprived of the right to move freely and now being literally imprisoned behind concrete walls twice as high as the Berlin Wall and electrified fences. Although comprising half the population of the country between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, the Palestinians - including those with Israeli citizenship - are confined to just 15% of the country.

In order to secure permanent Israeli control, however, the “facts on the ground” had to be legitimized as permanent political facts. International law defines occupation as a temporary situation resolvable only through negotiations. It prohibits an Occupying Power from taking any steps that makes its control permanent, specifically transferring of one's population into an occupied territory and building settlements. Indeed, international law holds an Occupying Power such as Israel responsible for the well-being of the civilian population under its control. For help in by-passing international law and transforming Israel's Occupation into a permanent reality, Sharon turned to Israel's one and only patron in such matters, the US, which promptly obliged. In April, 2004, the Bush Administration formally recognized Israel's settlement blocs - euphemistically called “major population centers” - thus unilaterally removing from the Palestinians 20-30% of the already truncated area in which they wished to establish a small state of their own. It was tantamount to Mexico requesting that Spain return Bush's Texas. Israel's annexation of its settlement blocs was subsequently approved almost unanimously by Congress: in the House by a vote of 407-9, in the Senate by 95-3.

Still, Israel needs a Palestinian state. Although the annexation of the settlement blocs gives Israel complete control over the entire country between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, it needs to “get rid of” the almost four million Palestinian residents of the Occupied Territories to which it can neither give citizenship nor keep in a state of permanent bondage. What Sharon seeks, and what Bush has agreed to, is a truncated Palestinian mini-state, a Bantustan, a prison-state on 10-15% of the country that relieves Israel of the Palestinian population while leaving it firmly in control of the country and its resources. Whether or not we like the term, this amounts to full-blown apartheid, the permanent and institutionalized domination of one people over another.

Having created irreversible “facts of the ground” and gotten American political recognition of an expanded Israel, Sharon lacks just one last piece to make Israeli apartheid official: either the signature of a Palestinian quisling-leader agreeing to a mini-state, or an excuse to unilaterally impose it. Arafat refused to play that role. Now it is Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' turn. When, just this week, Sharon's advisor on strategy, Eyal Arad, raised the possibility of turning unilateral disengagement into a strategy that would allow Israel to draw its own borders, the message to Abbas was clear: Either you cooperate or lose any input whatsoever into a political resolution of the conflict.

More at;
Tikkun


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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. strange.....
on land expropriated from Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza

is this guy living in an illusionary world too....its seems so far that all the critisims of israel seem to either (like above) forget gaza is now in palestenain hands...or some how claim that the israel controls the egyptian borders..


until these writers get their facts right their writing isnt worth the paper its written on.....guess its really really hard to let go of a good knee jerk blame israel for all evil deeds reaction.....or some good sneaky conspiracy....
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Illusionary world?
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 04:02 PM by manic expression
look at your own beliefs. THAT is illusionary.

Gaza is in Israel's hands. Palestinians are little more than squatters. The borders, the seas, the airspace, all of it under Israel's control.

Get YOUR facts right. Delusion is a sad thing.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. facts?
and the palestenians in gaza will continue to have limited freedoms until they somehow develop a society that we believe wont be attacking us with 40 missles or tossing a mortor now and then over the border.....

i realize you dont like the idea of Egypt closing the border to the palestenains..but get a map out...at least learn the geography a bit...(have you ever even seen a picture of the border?)

in fact do you have ANY idea of what your writing about....

you probably believe that if the palestenains get a state..thats all that has to be done. The concept of a failed state, an theocracy, a version of Sudan, probably doesnt even concern you.....

thats the irony....whereas we demand the palestenains first and formost creat a society that can live with us as its neighbors in peace...its also the only way the palestenain citizen will also have a secure life as well.

all the crying and bellyaching to give them a state now....will possibly result in a failed, violent society that, like sudan,....nobody will no longer bother with....
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Yes, something you cannot comprehend
When Israel gives Palestinians some respect and end their oppression, perhaps the attacks would stop. However, it refuses to do either.

Israel is maintaining control of the ENTIRE BORDER. THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN MULTIPLE TIMES. How is that hard to understand? Israel is controlling the border to Egypt.

If Palestinians get a state, they will actually have control of their lands. That is progress, that is improvement, that is justice and that is what Israel has been fighting against. Your pathetic comparison to Sudan is ridiculous on many levels, and it is most vile in its broad characterization of Muslims as such. Sudan's actions resemble Israel's policies in the Middle East more than anything else, as ethnic cleansing and attacks on innocents is very commonly used by both governments.

Do you actually think Palestinian society is "not worthy" of self-determination? GET REAL! That is base, jingoistic and reactionary all rolled up into one wrong view.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Gaza is not in Israel's hands.
How many times does this have to be repeated for you to get the message?

YOU get YOUR facts strait. Okay?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yes it is
Israel controls the borders, the coastlines and the airspace. They also reserve the "right" (it's not a right) to attack the Palestinian people there. Gaza is in Israel's iron fist, and that is wrong.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. is not
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Please reply with logic and an actual argument
Thank you.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. see posts 1, 6, 8
and you are welcome
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I have, and I responded to them
with arguments. Address those arguments when you reply.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Palestinian security forces are in control of Gaza
Abbas has several thousand police and military personnel
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. And Israel is in control of the borders
and the coastline and the airspace. They control all movement in and out of the area. Israel has launched multiple attacks into Gaza, which should also tell you something.

"Israeli forces have also launched about 30 aerial attacks on Gaza, destroying schools and homes as well as firing artillery into open areas of Gaza as a 'warning' for the first time."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1581455,00.html

Do you see that? Schools and homes. :puke:

Yeah, Israel has no control over Gaza...:eyes:
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Did you see this?
"Up to 40 rockets had been fired at Israel, weeks after its military withdrew from the territory."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4281450.stm

PA control every square foot of Gaza

:eyes:
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Yes, did you see this?
"Israeli forces have also launched about 30 aerial attacks on Gaza, destroying schools and homes as well as firing artillery into open areas of Gaza as a 'warning' for the first time."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1581455,00.html

That was unprovoked.

"But the military said the arrests in the West Bank were an attempt to end continuing rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip by Islamist groups, more than a fortnight after Israel withdrew its forces from the territory."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1581455,00.html

That was in the wrong area altogether. That's a lot like getting attacked by terrorists based in Afghanistan and attacking Iraq!...wait....

Israel controls the borders, coasts and airspace of Gaza. That is control. That is wrong.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Wow, does PA control anything?
Israel's responding to unprovoked rocket attacks by Hamas is justified.

Oh and I disagree with most of your opinions.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Don't justify an injustice with another injustice
Hamas attacked Israel, and Israel responded with attacks on SCHOOLS AND HOMES. Israel also responded with arrests IN THE WRONG AREA (that's like getting attacked by terrorists in Afghanistan and invading Iraq). Israel also responded by laying siege to Gaza, hurting innocents even more.

Palestinians responded to these outrageous actions by attacking military targets. That is justified.

"But this did not prevent Palestinians from firing two mortars into an army base near the Gaza Strip, without causing injury."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1581455,00.html

Hamas and other groups have been fighting Israel because of the disgusting actions Israel has done, which is not unreasonable at all. Here is but a taste of the terrible atrocities of Israel:
"Asma, 16, and her younger brother, Ahmad, were collecting laundry from the roof of their home in the south of the Gaza Strip in May last year when they were felled by an Israeli army sniper. Neither child was armed or threatening the soldier, who fired unseen through a hole punched in the wall of a neighbouring block of flats."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1516268,00.html

I have mentioned airspace over Gaza, and it is under Israeli control. ANYTHING that Palestinians do in the airspace of Gaza is subject to Israeli domination. Ironically, the crime there was that they "violated" their own airspace (in the blind eyes of Israel) first.

You ignore the wrongdoings of Israel time and time again.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. now your a military tactician?
Hamas attacked Israel, and Israel responded with attacks on SCHOOLS AND HOMES

and just what was hamas attacking ?...and since hamas hides behind civilians and uses civilian buildings and homes as their bases..attacking those bases is justified....and its their useful idiotes that the scream:....but but israel is attacking schools and homes.

duh! maybe if hamas had their bases NOT in homes and schools they wouldnt be a problem.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Give it a rest
Hamas attacked Israel, that does not give Israel the right to specifically target schools and homes AT ALL. Please give me some evidence that Hamas specifically targeted similar buildings in this instance.

Hamas is the one using "human shields"? Have you even been paying attention? IDF is NOTORIOUS for using innocents as cannon fodder, not to mention gunning down civilians for no reason whatsoever, and worse.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm

Hamas fights Israel the only way it can: through guerrilla warfare. Once Israel starts to treat Palestinians with a shred of decency, things will change.

Oh, and what about "defence"?
"Within hours of Hamas's announcement that it was halting its attacks, the Israeli air force had struck again."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4288136.stm

Insanity.... Pure insanity.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Israel has the right to target those buildings for national security
when their intelligence indicates terrorists are using those buildings. Israel targetted those buildings when the kids were out. End of story
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Yeah, right...
some stellar intelligence there. Provide me some independent sources that remotely support that claim.

"...terrorists are using those buildings."

How? IT WAS A SCHOOL. As in a place where kids go to learn things. Bombing it is unacceptable. What was Hamas doing? Teaching school children techniques in terrorism? Giving classes on AK-47's? Your assertions are as baseless and ridiculous as they are malicious.

They destroyed a school, greatly injuring those kids' futures and making a mockery of their innocence. That is wrong. End of story.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. hamas doesnt target civilians.......?
Edited on Fri Oct-14-05 01:22 AM by pelsar
oh..those missles that were shot at towns and cities..they were aimed to kill? stray cats?

yes israel targets very specific builidings for very specific reasons...where do you think hamas hides their equipment?...in schools, mosques etc...for precisly the PR affect that you so easily accept and "cry out for". except that israel doesnt blow them up "during class"..as hamas would prefer.

thats the consequence when one hides behind civilians.

hamas claims btw in case you werent listening...that their fight is for israels destruction...not living side by side (did you just make that up?)

if your claiming that hamas can fight "the only way it can using hiding amongst civilians...so? theyre are consequences-like getting their homes blown up, like having mistakes made (thats why the hide)

and our defense?...damn right we'll attack again and again and again and again. shooting 40 missles AFTER we left was essentially a declaration of war.....we'll keep on attacking if need be.

and if and when we let up, perhaps hamas will concentrate on building a society where they're not killing each other...if not and they shoot more missles at us...well, perhap we'll use bigger bombs and not target "empty fields".

and since were on to what hamas is really like...what they actually do:
Qaqilya...the town is run by hamas..the whole council is hamas

http://www.freemuse.org/sw10095.asp

and these are the people a "liberal progressive" can support?

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Israel's defending itself against unprovoked attacks
is justifiable under international law

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Provide independent sources that the Israeli army targetted
a school in Sept. 05 (after Hamas rocket attacked Israel) for reasons of "oppression, intimidation, terror and others" versus their military intelligence indicated Hamas operated from that school.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. And I meant to add Israel defensding itself against unprovoked
Edited on Thu Oct-13-05 01:32 PM by barb162
attacks is acceptable under international law.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Really?
Then I'll be sure to inform the world that attacking schools and homes is now acceptable. I'll also be sure to tell students that they are legitimate targets, but only when Israel feels threatened....:puke:
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. tell hamas...
to remove their training from school yards...their bomb building from homes....it might help
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. You might want to brush up on the laws of war
If a building is used for military purposes - such as a school being used by Hamas for training - it loses its protected status. See also Article 28 of GC4 for starters.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. First of all...
What actual evidence do you have that points to this conclusion?

"Overnight on Saturday, Israeli forces launched air strikes against alleged weapon storage sites, and a school linked to the militant group Hamas. At least 19 people were reported injured in the strikes."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4281074.stm

Pretty suspect evidence. Where have I seen this kind of thing before?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1853860.stm

Anyway, what is your definition of "military purposes"? I guess terrorists have a right to attack schools in America because recruiters try to get kids to join the military there. I'm sure I'll understand when gunships blast away my school for the equivilant of what MIGHT have been happening in the Palestinian schools.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Israel's defending itself against unprovoked attacks
is justifiable under international law.

Which military intelligence unit of any nation provides evidence of the sort you are asking. Syria? Saudi Arabia? Iran? France? Please name the country(ies).


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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. A nation defending itself against unprovoked attacks
is justifiable under international law
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
57. you mean like our students? our homes our schools? our busses?
who are always legitimate targets at all times?....and their mothers and babies and every israeli at all times all over the world...simply because they are israelis

there is but one group here that targets civilians, that sends people to go into homes airplanes and schools and busses to shoot up the people inside...ALL OVER THE WORLD..there is but one group here the celebrates the killing of civilians....that sends missles and mortors into towns randomly hoping to kill anyone possibly

its not the IDF......
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. now ethnic cleansing?
that why the arab population of israel has increased as have the palestenian population....strange ethnic cleansing going on.....somebody has got the definition of the word confused.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Yes
Israel's policy of removing Palestinians from their land in favor of Israelis perfectly fits the definition. And don't forget about the terrible atrocities on refugee camps.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. PA controls its border on Egypt and helped mend the fence and
its own border with Egypt last month. PA and Egyptian troops were there doing it themselves.They also closed the newly dug tunnel(s). That's a fact.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. It is also a fact
that Israel mantains the "right" to regulate and police anything going through those points.

The PA can build anything it wants to (so long as Israel allows them to do so), but Israel gets to enforce its own will on border policies without challenge.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
24.  And because of terrorist attacks on Israel in 9/05 and other dates
and what you mention here, there will be meetings between Abbas and Sharon sometime in the future
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. No
the meeting was delayed because the two parties had disagreements on certain issues.

They can meet all they want, but until Israel gives control of Gaza's borders, coasts and airspace to Palestinians, it is just another empty gesture.

And Israel responded to those attacks by murdering innocents, attacking schools and homes and arresting people in a completely different area. They also responded by laying siege to Palestine, again subjecting the Palestinian people to even more injustice.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Israel defended itself from unprovoked terrorist attacks
and protected the Israeli people from even more injustice by Hamas fanatics. Israel has the right to protect itself by going after those attacking it. Sorry you disagree that a nation doesn't have the right to protect itself.

Also, PA is building in Gaza right? WHy are they doing that if they don't control / own it? That would seem enormously silly, like building a house on property that you don't own.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. Bulls***
It "defended itself" by attacking SCHOOLS AND HOMES! How many times do I have to repeat this? What in the world does a school have to do with "those attacking it"? How is it justified to arrest people in a completely different region?

I STRONGLY disagree with injustice, which is what Israel has been doing.

PA is building in Gaza. Great. Israel still has control of the BORDERS, COASTS, AIRSPACE AND WATER. Ironically enough, it is as if Palestinians do not own Gaza.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Isreal's right to self defense is just.
Some Hamas rockets landed on Israeli SCHOOL grounds. There was no Israeli military on the SCHOOL grounds.It was an unprovoked attack.
I call that injustice, unprovoked aggression, violation of Israeli airspace and property, endangerment to Israeli citizens, etc. If you don't see it that way, oh well....

If someone attacks you, you have the right to defend yourself.

By the way I have been reading more and more that Egypt will be controlling that seacoast under the September 1 Egypt-Israel agreement. Is that just or unjust?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. hamas stops shooting and claims "no more"....
and what?...israel should believe them?....israelis should suddenly put down their arms and dance in the streets?

no...they stopped shooting because not only did they have nothing to gain, but it was becoming very costly...in fact too costly. and the IDF was going to make sure that they arent so fast gong to start up again. Since none of us know their strategy other than their overall goal to destroy israel (as they have stated often enough), its quite reasonable to attack them despite "PR releases".......

or perhaps we should wait for the next 40 missles aimed at our towns and cities for indiscriminat killing before we bomb some empty fields again?.....nah....
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. If you actually look
at what happened, yes, Hamas did stop its attacks, as it said it would. But no, you can't trust 'dem 'stinians, they're just not reasonable peope... :eyes:

The IDF was busy destroying schools and attacking people in Gaza, not to mention cutting Palestinians in Gaza off from needed trade, injuring them further. That is not justified at all.

Don't give me the "destroy Israel" speil. Israel's only goal is to extend its unjustified domain of oppression over other people.
"Israel has no boundaries, only frontiers."
Guess who said that?

Perhaps you should not bomb innocent buildings when there is no reason to (other than intimidation, I mean). Perhaps you should treat Palestinians with a shred of respect.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. respect.....
Edited on Sat Oct-15-05 06:18 PM by pelsar
guess you dont know much about our culture....or the palestenains for that matter.

we must have over a dozen movies/plays about palestenains and israelis in various forms..from palestenaisn living as israelis, in israel to israelis living as palestenians, our checkpoints museum exhibits etc.....we know their people and humans...they are interviewed constantly on our radio and invited to our talk shows (where they are far more polite than the israelis)....they have business meetings in TA for importing and exporting.

how many israelis were every interviewd on PA TV or radio?....maybe one....how many plays, movies that the arabs nations and palestenians have made that show us as people?...never heard of a single one.

they have however reproduced the protocols of zion for TV last year (egyptians) and of course the iranians also have produced the eyes of zara....which show how israelis use palestenians organs for our own.....now those are very "respectful" and educational......all shown on palestenain TV.

Perhaps saudi arabia might stop with the "jews drink arab blood for passover" stories?...and of course it get tiring to hear how were sons of dogs etc coming out of the friday afternoon sermons.....in gaza and other places......

_______________________________________
oh yea...just because Hamas says "hey we're now stopping to launch rockets at you guys"....so?....i dont believe they said...we want to talk peace with israel, i dont believe they said we'll stop with the suicide bombers or we'll stop planning and attempting to kill israelis...no they just said we'll stop shooting rockets.

and do you know why they said that?...because our retaiiation was far more than they bargained for...and that was why it continued ....so that there was no "misunderstanding"...they launch a few rockets, we return with a couple days of bombing and artillary fire and lots of sonic booms...and we keep it up....maybe the message will sink in...DONT SHOOT AT US! (and they were warned before the pullout of what to expect if they shot at us afterwards..guess they didnt believe us-I hope they do now)
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Read the sentence again -
Not just part of it, the *whole* sentence, & notice the past tense;

--Supported by both Likud and Labor governments, he oversaw the establishment of some 200 settlements (almost 400 if you include the “outposts”) on land expropriated from Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.--

The comments about Gaza are in the past tense, there's nothing
there to suggest that the settlements in *Gaza* remain, or that
they are being expanded. It's a different story in WB & E. Jerusalem.

Or maybe you're suggesting that all the settlements that *were*
in Gaza, really weren't?




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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. The 'facts on the ground' are slated to be eclipsed by the 'facts in DC'
Edited on Tue Oct-11-05 09:54 AM by leveymg
Soon, the neocons will be indicted and will frog march into black FBI SUVs. The regime of Ariel Sharon will then fall. It is one and the same criminal entity.

Moment of hubris, longtime coming.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. And the facts in Iraq. nt
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-11-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Neocon indictments? Rove?
Until someone is tried in court, that person is not a criminal, right?

Makes no difference what I think of the present administration.

If Sharon gets replaced, who goes in his spot? Maybe worry more about the PA reorganization of government
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. stop it...
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 01:01 AM by pelsar
trying to claim that the PA govt has to be responsable for the actions of its society.....that would ruin a whole "blame israel movement"...people would be lost, wandering around without a "just cause"......it would take away unbrideled, illogical, religious fevor passion.....
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. More by the same author -
Same subject, more detail.

_____________________________


Washington Report, September/October 2005

The Narrow Gate to Peace
By Jeff Halper

THOSE OF US who live in Palestine-Israel find ourselves at a fateful crossroads. From Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s point of view, Israel has won its conflict with the Palestinians. Surveying the landscape—physical and political alike—Sharon can feel a great deal of satisfaction. He has finally fulfilled the task with which he was charged in 1977 by Menachem Begin: to ensure permanent Israeli control over the entire Land of Israel while foreclosing the emergence of a viable Palestinian state.

With almost unlimited resources and the enthusiastic complicity of the Labor Party when his party, the Likud, was out of power, Sharon set out to establish irreversible “facts on the ground” that would pre-empt any process of negotiations. He oversaw the establishment of some 200 settlements on land expropriated from Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza; these settlements are home today to almost half a million Israelis.

During the Oslo “peace process,” Israel doubled its settler population and constructed, with the permission and financial backing of the United States, a system of 29 major highways intended to irreversibly incorporate the settlements into Israel proper. In the meantime, 96 percent of the Palestinians were locked into what Sharon calls “cantons,” deprived of the right to move freely. They are now being literally imprisoned behind concrete walls and electronic fences. Although comprising half the population of the country west of the Jordan, the Palestinians—including those with Israeli citizenship—are today confined to some 70 desolate, crowded, and disconnected enclaves on a mere 15 percent of the country.

Still, Israel faces a fundamental dilemma: how to retain control of the occupied territories while ridding itself of their 3.6 million Palestinians. Sharon attacked this problem in three ways. First, since international law defines occupation as a temporary situation resolvable only through negotiations, Israel’s expansion into East Jerusalem and the West Bank would have to be transformed into a permanent political fact that trumped international law. That accomplished, a Palestinian mini-state of five or so disconnected cantons would have to be established that would “relieve” Israel of the Palestinian population while leaving Israel in de facto control of the country’s borders, lands, water, tourism, airspace, communications, and overall developmental potential. Finally, a quisling Palestinian “leader” would have to be found willing to sign off on this Middle East version of apartheid.

More at;
Washington Report on Middle East Affairs




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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. and what a stuiped article at that....
Edited on Wed Oct-12-05 05:48 PM by pelsar
He has finally fulfilled the task with which he was charged in 1977 by Menachem Begin: to ensure permanent Israeli control over the entire Land of Israel while foreclosing the emergence of a viable Palestinian state.


He can read Sharons mind?...funny cause everybody here is wondering what hes going to do next....i guess the author forgot about the permanent presence we had in gaza....
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. While you're wondering what Jabba's next move will be -
Here's some history about 'the father of Israel's unruly settlement
project'.

____________________


The Militarist and Messianic Ideologies

Neve Gordon

(Neve Gordon teaches political science at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel.)

July 8, 2004

Two weeks after 60,000 Likud Party members voted against a pullout from the Gaza Strip, about 150,000 Israelis filled Rabin Square in Tel Aviv, calling on Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government to proceed with the withdrawal plan. Those opposing the pullout from Gaza support the vision of a Greater Israel, while those favoring the pullout support the state of Israel. The first group believes that without Gaza, Israel will be destroyed; the second believes that with it, Israel will be destroyed.

Ironically, many of those who packed Rabin Square and today are over 40 years old also participated in a famous protest in 1982, only then the demonstration was against Sharon and his invasion of Lebanon, and the plaza was not called Rabin Square. The fact that many of those who protested against Sharon "the war criminal" in 1982 took to the streets to support him and his unilateral plan to withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2004 warrants an explanation. Has Sharon undergone a metamorphosis in the 22 years separating these two protests or, alternatively, has the Peace Now rank and file who chanted in the Tel Aviv plaza changed over the years?

SHARON'S PAST

Following the establishment of the first Likud government in 1977, Sharon hoped that Prime Minister Menachem Begin would make him defense minister. He was dismayed when Ezer Weizmann received that portfolio, while he was appointed minister of agriculture. Soon thereafter, the peace agreement with Egypt began to unfold. Weizmann, who hoped to include the Palestinians within the accords, opposed the settlement project then underway; he opined that Israel should withdraw from occupied Palestinian territories within the framework of a peace treaty. Sharon, on the other hand, voted against the withdrawal from Sinai and wanted to preempt the possibility of any future agreement based on trading land for peace. Accordingly, as chair of the government's Settlement Committee, he initiated a massive settlement enterprise in the Occupied Territories. Whereas Israel erected 20 settlements in the West Bank between 1967 and 1976 (in addition to those built on confiscated Palestinian land around East Jerusalem), within less than four years Sharon managed to build 62 new settlements, completely changing the landscape of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Since then, Sharon has been considered the father of Israel's unruly settlement project.

Sharon's commitment to a Greater Israel, however, preceded his political career. While still a general in the Israeli military, Sharon created an alliance with Gush Emunim (in Hebrew, Bloc of the Faithful), the highly efficient settler movement. "I confess that I am the initiator of the idea of establishing Jewish settlements in the Strip," he said in a 1973 newspaper interview, right after he resigned from serving as the general in charge of Israel's Southern Command. Sharon went on to explain: "I established Kfar Darom and I established Netzarim, and encircled their territory with fences."

More at;
http://www.merip.org/mero/mero070804.html

____________________

Quote from Shazza,

"Provocative words raise Mideast tensions
November 16, 1998

....In comments broadcast on Israeli radio, Sharon urged Jewish settlers to grab West Bank hilltops before a permanent agreement is reached on the area where Palestinians hope to build an independent homeland.

"Everyone there should move, should run, should grab more hills, expand the territory," exhorted Sharon. "Everything that's grabbed, will be in our hands. Everything we don't grab will be in their hands."


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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. history we know....
and then sharon evacuated Gaza

we also know that nobody has any idea what his next move is......

so its foolish for anybody to even think they know.....and for those who have watched sharon over the years, the writer simple made a fool out of himself...for those who like having sharon as the axis of evil...for those "usefull idiotes" the article has an audiance.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-05 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
58. This is drivel.
I don't want to imply that Sharon is not a conniving, lying,
murderous, backstabbing SOB, but it seems fairly ridiculous to
me to assert that the present situation is "all that he set out
to do", or that an "apartheid state" was the goal back then,
or that it is the goal now, or that he had "unlimited resources"
to carry out his nefarious plan. In other words, he makes
some useful points, but he pushes his argument farther than
the facts allow, farther than makes sense.

No offense, nothing personal, just my 2c.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. bemildred..feel free....
you have a pretty good description of sharon there:

conniving, lying, murderous, backstabbing sob.......

it just so happens that sometimes thats what it takes to get things done around here.....
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. Feel free to what? nt
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. to imply that sharon is a
Edited on Sun Oct-16-05 02:35 AM by pelsar
backstabbing, conniving politician....which he is....

you wont get any argument from me....
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. All politicians are liars and scum. At least that's the way to bet. nt
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. There was one once in Ohio as I recall who dropped out after
one term abotu 10 years ago in the US House. He was clean and refused to run again as he couldn't deal with the way things were actually done in the Congress. (He felt a bill should only be approved if it was necessary and not pork). I thought Carter was pretty clean but he didn't know how to maneuver the system
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Carter seemed pretty clean.
You know they would have nailed him like they did Clinton otherwise.
Instead we got the "Killer Rabbit" stories.

He was naive, but then the political system at the national level
is stunningly corrupt and duplicitious. It always cracks me up
when the media start whining about corruption in some little 3rd
world country, when they are all pikers compared to our own Congress
and Business "elites".
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. here too
in 1977 a bunch of respected businessman, kibbutniks, generals got together made new party (dash)...got into the knesset....once they realized that they couldnt change the way things were being done...most quit. Some stuck it out longer and were considered honest...but in the end they all left.
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