Iranian Leader: Israel Will Be Destroyed

[ECH1969]

TEHRAN, Iran - Iran's hard-line president called for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and said a new wave of Palestinian attacks will destroy the Jewish state, state-run media reported Wednesday.

"There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will wipe off this stigma (Israel) from the face of the Islamic world," Ahmadinejad told students Wednesday during a Tehran conference called "The World without Zionism."

"Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury, any (Islamic leader) who recognizes the Zionist regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world," Ahmadinejad said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel

[rpannier]

1. Yeah...yeah...yeah

Just like it was destroyed in '54, '68 and '72. The Arab alliances have been singing that broken down tune for half-a-century. They have yet to succeed. Ahmadinejad is blowing more smoke than the entire Seoul Industrial Sector.

[Mass]

2. Is he an ally of Bush? Let's be sure that FOX and CNN will spend

more time on that than on Fitzmas today.

[goforit]

38. I'm beginning to wonder.

[bluestateguy]

3. And I wish Israel well in defending herself from that threat

I do. I really do.

But it's not our problem.

[Tight_rope]

25. Agreed!....People in glass houses shouldn't through stones!

And through the last few years Israel has been throwing alot of stones.

[question everything]

33. As long as this country has troops in the Middle East

Israel is our problem.

Had Israel not destroyed the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1982 (I think) the result of the first Gulf War would have been worse.

As long as this country relies on military intelligence and innovation from Israel, this is our problem.

But, hey, it is so easy to trash Israel when one is too lazy to simply study the facts and a bit of history.

[Andromeda]

119. You are so right.

I hate to think of what might have happened if Israel hadn't taken out the nuclear reactor in 1982.

[enigma000]

4. Bet Ahmadinejad can't wait to have nukes

Then he can do the wiping "off the map" part himself.

[ECH1969]

5. I don't want over a hundred thousand US troops

Being in the middle of a nuke war between Iran and Israel. Over what? Whose God is Bigger?

[Chan790]

6. It's the same god

it's more like who "god" likes better.

I'm in agreement though. let them fight it out, if one eats the other's proverbial lunch...not our problem. We were not involved.

[MojoXN]

7. Let them fight it out, eh?

Normally, I would agree. But in this case, it's not even a contest. Israel has the 4th largest military in the world, stocked with all of the most modern weaponry that American armament subsidies can buy. Iran doesn't. Israel also has over 300 nuclear wapons. Iran does not. Ergo, the Iranians would have to be nuts to think that they could destroy Israel, or even do significant damage.

MojoXN

[Chan790]

12. That'd be my assessment as well.

I'm more concerned with the US being accused of interfering in the region. If Israel mops the floor with Iran, maybe Arab leaders might stop saying that Israel only exists because the US and UK prop it up. In any case, not our war; I don't care who wins, but if a single US soldier dies for another ME pissing contest that we don't belong in, I want an embargo and crippling sanctions against both sides.

"A pox on both your houses" as the Bard said.

[Zynx]

8. Blah blah blah...They've been saying that since 1948.

[Matilda]

9. As far as Israel's current actions in the Territories are concerned,

my sympathies are with Palestine.

But this kind of talk is just plain dumb. Israel isn't going
anywhere, and that's the only basis from which Palestine can
negotiate, like it or not.

[No Exit]

10. Hey, I guess we could really repair our shattered image in the Arab world

if WE were to invade Israel...:eyes:

[ErisFiveFingers]

26. Sadly..

For sheer WTF purposes, if the US invaded Israel, and forced them to let every Israel-controlled person vote, things would likely change.

Of course, part of that change would be the destruction of a theocratically democratic state.

Hey, the US is messing up Iraq for a few hundred years, why stop there?

[No Exit]

27. Yeah, really.

If it somehow turned out that invading Israel would increase profits for oil companies, we'd be there today.

[The Stranger]

11. Why do I doubt that he actually said these things?

Color me curious. And why would he say these things just in time to coincide with the U.S. Neocon Cabal is feverishly working to try to invade more countries and mass murder more people?

And why are there so many parentheses in the quotes that were attributed to him? What words, phrases or names were being substituted? Wasn't this translated from another language, in any event?

No, color me skeptical.

[Squatch]

13. Iranian state-run news.

[The Stranger]

15. Yahoo! News is Iranian State-Run?

[Squatch]

16. No, but IRIB and Tehran Times are...

I am at work, so it would be bad ju-ju for me to click on any Iranian websites.

[The Stranger]

17. The link in this thread is to Yahoo! News.

[Squatch]

18. And what, pray tell, does that link indicate the source of the info is?

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. IRNA report here (run by the Iranian government)

Speaking at a conference dubbed "World without Zionism" here Wednesday which was attended by thousands of students, he said any country which acknowledges the Zionist regime will actually be acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world.

He further expressed his firm belief that the new wave of confrontations generated in Palestine and the growing turmoil in the Islamic world would in no time wipe Israel away.

Ahmadinejad referred to the Zionist regime's recent withdrawal from the Gaza Strip as a "trick," saying Gaza is part of Palestinian territory and the withdrawal was meant to make Islamic states acknowledge the Zionist regime of Israel.

Pointing to the evil attempts of the US and Israel to saw discord among warring forces in Palestine and other parts of the Islamic world, the president said such attempts were aimed at forcing some Islamic countries to acknowledge the existence of Israel.

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0510264068140136.htm

[soda]

52. bull biscuits

ok i read it and re read it its not anything like the original post

[daleo]

56. Yes, the tone of that article is much less incendiary. n/t

[soda]

42. heres a link

http://www.tehrantimes.com/
see if you can find this story:)

[wordout]

22. three words

Islamic. Masonic. Dynasties.

[Nihil]

31. Three more

Complete. Utter. Bollocks.

[wordout]

39. Sex Pistols fan?

[Nihil]

132. Only some of the time :-)

:hi:

[soda]

24. strange

that yahoo link is the only place i can find this story,strange no?

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. Then you're not looking very hard

http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&ned=&ie=UTF-8&q=Ahmadinejad+israel&btnG=Search+News

[soda]

40. still looking

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad attends the conference dubbed "World without Zionism" on October 26, 2005, and delivers a speech.

Addressing the conference, he warned countries or leaders who have taken measures to acknowledge the Zionist regime under pressure or due to lack of sound understanding that they will be confronted with the wrath of the Islamic Ummah and will forever be disgraced.
http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-25/0510261313185049.htm

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. See post #28

or look at the many other links that Google News give you.

[Colorado Blue]

116. This sort of statement has been made for ages now, it's

nothing new unfortunately, and has nothing to do with timing.

People have been promising to bathe in Jewish blood since the '30's, when several Middle Eastern leaders aligned themselves with Hitler. This is easy to research.

[Englander]

123. ~Star Wars Ep VII - Revenge of the Nazi Arabs~

--People have been promising to bathe in Jewish blood since the '30's, when several Middle Eastern leaders aligned themselves with Hitler.--

Could you provide some evidence for the 2nd claim, CB? I'd like
to know more about these leaders, I'd like to know their names.

[Behind the Aegis]

124. Here is one... Amin al-Husayni

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

[Englander]

126. The claim was 'several'. One is not 'several'. n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

127. I see....

...so the other names listed in the article (with links, as well) are not "others?" Their ties to the Nazis are not acceptable, because the one link didn't include all of their names?

[Englander]

128. Which other names?

Your original post -

--Here is one... Amin al-Husayni--

My response;

--The claim was 'several'. One is not 'several'. n/t--

I mean, you know what 'several' means, don't you? If you think there
were 'several Middle Eastern leaders aligned themselves with Hitler'
then provide the names, I'm not going to do your work for you, if
you think there were multiple Nazees, then list them.

For extra points, you can try to explain why a mention of long-dead
leaders is relevant to a discussion about Ahmadinejad's comments.




Edited to change to past tense, added last para.

[Behind the Aegis]

129. Several

You think this ONE person?

To show gratitude towards his hosts, in 1943 the Mufti travelled several times to Bosnia, where on orders of the SS he recruited the notorious "Hanjar troopers," a special Bosnian Waffen SS company which slaugh-tered 90% of Bosnia's Jews and burned countless Serbian churches and villages. These Bosnian Muslim recruits rapidly found favor with SS chief Heinrich Himmler, who established a special Mullah Military school in Dresden.

Its leader, Anton Sa'ada, styled himself the Führer of the Syrian nation, and Hitler became known as "Abu Ali" (In Egypt his name was "Muhammed Haidar"). The banner of the PPS displayed the swastika on a black-white background. Later, a Lebanese branch of the PPS – which still receives its orders from Damascus – was involved in the assassination of Lebanese President Pierre Gemayel.

After the war, a member of Young Egypt named Gamal Abdul Nasser was among the officers who led the July 1952 revolution in Egypt. Their first act – following in Hitler's footsteps – was to outlaw all other parties. Nasser's Egypt became a safe haven for Nazi war criminals, among them the SS General in charge of the murder of Ukrainian Jewry; he became Nasser's bodyguard and close comrade. Alois Brunner, another senior Nazi war criminal, found shelter in Damascus, where he served for many years as senior adviser to the Syrian general staff and still resides today.

Sami al-Joundi, one of the founders of the ruling Syrian Ba'ath Party, recalls: "We were racists. We admired the Nazis. We were immersed in reading Nazi literature and books... We were the first who thought of a translation of Mein Kampf. Anyone who lived in Damascus at that time was witness to the Arab inclination toward Nazism."

All from http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/arabnazi.html

A simple search of "Arabs and Nazis" would have given you the "several" you required. Although, the one, who led a group in the ME should have also given you the "several."

However, I am sure that the Nazi "final solution" was not complete enough for many a person.

[Englander]

130. Congrats, you've found a Xtian Fundamentalist site,

'Christian Action for Israel'.

I think they're linked to the International Christian Embassy
Jerusalem (ICEJ);

'Group Watch:
International Christian Embassy Jerusalem

Background:

The International Christian Embassy Jerusalem (ICEJ) marks the coming together of extremes--fundamentalist Christians (those believing in Biblical inerrancy) joining hands in support of Zionists who claim a Biblical right as the "chosen people" of Genesis (13:14-18) to hold sway over a united Jerusalem. (2) The ICEJ works worldwide to promote its belief, based on the word of the Biblical prophet Zecariah, that Zionism is part of God's design for the days preceding the Second Coming of Christ. (3) Timothy King, ICEJ's financial director, says that the group is an independent nonprofit organization that bases its decisions on the Bible and what it says about the restoration of Israel. (25)

The ICEJ was founded by Jan Willem van der Hoeven, Johann Luckoff and four others in 1980 when 13 foreign embassies moved their offices from West Jerusalem to Tel Aviv in protest of Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin's illegal annexation of Arab East Jerusalem. (4)

ICEJ's stated purposes include concern for the Jewish people and the "reborn State of Israel." The ICEJ has pledged to stand up for the Jews when they are attacked and to assist Israel to a state of peace and security. (6) It sees itself as a center where Christians throughout the world can learn what is happening in Israel, in order to stimulate Christian leaders, organizations and churches to work on behalf of Israel, to assist projects in Israel, and to be a reconciling influence between Arabs and Jews. (6) While these goals appear to be peaceful and are always couched in Biblical language, the actions of the ICEJ are often political and provocative. For example, the ICEJ is dedicated to a state of Israel which includes an undivided Jerusalem and encompasses all of the West Bank. The West Bank is to be the home of the Soviet Jews. It will work with and assist Palestinians comfortable with these concepts, but will brook no compromise. Spokesperson van der Hoeven sees the PLO, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and the USSR as intractible opponents of the ICEJ goals. (15)

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/groupwatch/icej.php

Do you want to try again, with a credible source?

[barb162]

236. The pictures of the mufti with the German high command were

pretty darn good

[Violet_Crumble]

242. And this proves what exactly?

n/t

[barb162]

253. Visual evidence of a palestinian leader with nazis, that's what

And it fits right in with everything else I have read about him. He really got in bed with the nazis, didn't he? The biographical evidence is pretty clear

[Violet_Crumble]

275. Have you heard a famous phrase...

'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'? Do you think that played a factor in the events during WWII?

[centristo]

220. here you go

sorry for the long post. From what I read, pretty much only al-Husseini aligned himself with Hitler. However, the Nazi influence in the Middle East is what is important to note, and that influence was profound.

Here are three individuals that stood out from my research.

Haj Amin al-Husseini

“Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours.'”
- Former Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini in his post-WWII memoirs.

"The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures."
- Adolf Eichmann's deputy Dieter Wisliceny (subsequently executed as a war criminal) in his Nuremburg Trials testimony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_Al-Husseini

Anwar Sadat

"Another future Egyptian President, Anwar Sadat, was imprisoned during World War II for cooperating with Adolf Hitler’s regime. Towards the end of World War II, Sadat wrote to the Fuhrer: “My dear Hitler, I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart. Even if you appear to have been defeated, in reality you are the victor. You succeeded in creating dissensions between Churchill, the old man, and his allies, the Sons of Satan. Germany will win because her existence is necessary to preserve the world balance. Germany will be reborn in spite of the Western and Eastern powers. There will be no peace unless Germany once again becomes what she was.”

Sean Mac Mathuna, Flame Magazine, "Postwar Arab links to the ODESSA network". Cited online on June 24, 2004 at: http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/nazis_postwar_egypt.htm

Rashid Ali al-Kaylani

Middle East

"Iraq under the control of Rashid Ali al-Kaylani tried to join the Axis but there was internal resistance. When Kaylani was again appointed prime minister in 1940, King Ghazi had just passed away and the new four-year-old King Faisal II assumed the throne, with his uncle Emir Abdul-Illah serving as "acting monarch." While Abdul-Illah supported the British in the war, Kaylani was strongly opposed to them and refused to allow troops to cross through Iraq to the war front. Kaylani was also opposed to those calling for him to break off ties with the Fascist government in Italy. He subsequently sent his Justice Minister, Naji Shawkat, to meet with the then German ambassador to Turkey, Franz von Papen, to win German support for his government. At a later meeting, in which the Mufti's private secretary acted as the representative for the Iraqi government, Kaylani assured Germany that his country's natural resources would be made available to the Axis Powers in return for German recognition of the Arab states' right to independence and political unity, as well as the right to "deal with" the Jews living in Arab lands. When Britain found out about these dealings, sanctions were immediately placed on Iraq. The last chance for Iraqi entrance on the side of Germany slipped away when the Italians began to lose control of their territory holdings in North Africa. On January 31, 1941, Kaylani was forced to resign from the post of Iraqi Prime Minister due to British pressure.

The Japanese had some contact with Islamic leaders in Southeast Asia and Middle East areas, such as British Malaya, Dutch Indies, Afghanistan or Sinkiang, before and during the war. Among these leaders were the Sultan of Johore, Afghan Sardar Mohammad Hashim Khan, and Uiguir leader Ma Chung-ying. They coordinated some actions with Japanese agents, but these contacts did not result in significant action during the war. Certain Italian agents arrived to Persia and Afghanistan with similar purposes, but received little assistance.."

Gamal Abdel Nasser

In October 1933, pro-Axis Young Egypt Party was founded. Styling itself of its German ideal, the new party built a storm-trooper unit, marching with torches under the slogan “One folk, One party, One Leader.” Among the members of the violently anti-Semitic party was the young Gamal Abdel Nasser. Nasser’s brother, Nassiri, was the translator of Hitler’s Mein Kampf into Arabic, describing the Fascist despot in glowing terms. After the “Free Officers” came to power in the 1950’s, President Nasser used Joachim Daumling, the former Gestapo chief in Dusseldorf, to build the Egyptian secret service. Gestapo chief of Warsaw organized the Egyptian security police.

Joseph Schechtman, "The Mufti and the Fuehrer". p. 19-20
Christian Action for Israel Web Site. "The Arab/Muslim Nazi Connection". Cited online on June 25, 2004 at http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/arabnazi.html

[barb162]

237. appreciate the links

[Englander]

247. That's right, only al-Husseini aligned himself with Hitler.

The claims about Sadat, and Nasser, and Rashid Ali are mostly fantasy,
with the small addition of what actually happened. They were not
pro-axis,they were anti-British. They were fighting against the
occupying forces of the time, in a nationalist stuggle. That does not
make them 'pro-axis'.

The claims from the last site, the Xtian Zionist site, really are
complete fantasy.

[barb162]

254. I don't agree at all. Evidence has been provided.

Are you denying all evidence of the nazi ties and influence.

[Englander]

268. After all that, er "evidence" -

"evidence" is this case meaning fantasical claims from weird-arse
sites, regarding the original claim, we're still at the grand total of
one. So, no is the answer to the claim that 'several Middle Eastern
leaders aligned themselves with Hitler.' But wait, what's this?

'Yair ache
By Tom Segev
Nationalist whining and a torrent of words turn a fascinating biography
into a long, confusing and boring book.

"Yair, Roman Biografi" ("Yair, A Biographical Novel") by Moshe Shamir, Zemora-Bitan, 551 pages, NIS 97

Avraham Stern was a Jewish terrorist - admired by many and still admired today. He was the leader of the pre-state underground organization Lohamei Herut Israel (Lehi) that also murdered citizens in the name of the Zionist struggle for national independence. Stern's world view embraced certain elements of Mussolini-style fascism, and at a certain point, he tried to enter into an alliance with Hitler's Germany. But the Nazis, who hated him even more than he hated them, spurned him in favor of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al- Husseini.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=78830&contrassID=3&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

[Englander]

274. ~~~~~

[Violet_Crumble]

276. Wow...

Going on current form, there should have been multiple single-poster replies to that post. Instead there was zero - a grand sum of one less than all those Arab leaders who aligned themselves with Hitler ;)

Violet...

[Englander]

281. I don't know, Violet-

I think there may be something about post #268, there must be
something about the content that makes it less likely to have
multiple single-poster replies - I wonder what it could be!!;) ;)

[barb162]

271. check posts 228, 233, 235, 238ff which you might have missed

[Englander]

168. ~~~~~

[barb162]

186. Not funny at all. As a matter of fact, the nazi influence is well-

established.

"Several Nazi-influenced political parties arose in the Middle East in the 1930s and 1940s, some of which went on to play important roles in shaping the leadership of Arab nations in the post-World War II period. Egypt, Syria and Iran are widely believed to have harbored Nazi war criminals, though they do not admit doing so. Mein Kampf has been published and republished in Arabic since 1963.
This cartoon likening "Israel" to Nazis was distributed by the Arab Layers Union at the World Conference on Racism's NGO Forum in Durban, South Africa, in August 2001"
http://www.adl.org/holocaust/denial_ME/hdme_genocide_denial.asp

Here is a fairly large paper on the subject,with names, usually in the propagandizing of holocaust denial

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/denial_ME/Holocaust_Denial_Mid_East_prt.pdf

[Englander]

214. Where are they?

My original question -

--I'd like to know more about these leaders, I'd like to know their names.--

So, where are these names? If you have any names of 'Nazi-influenced
political parties in the ME', then provide them. There's no evidence
provided in the adl link, they don't provide any *actual*evidence*.
So, who were they?

[barb162]

221. El-Gaylani Rashid Ali was the Pro-Axis leader of Iraq

who fled to Iran when the Allies invaded Iraq.
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=56m8trl5bu49q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=El-Gaylani+Rashid+Ali&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01atr

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=56m8trl5bu49q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Farhud&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a

"In 1940, he (the mufti: Husayni)conspired with a group of pro-Nazi Iraqi officers, known as the "Golden Square" led by General Rashid Ali, to overthrow the regent.... Who are the Iraqui officers? I don't know.

There were others as it seems the mulfi had a considerable influence. Names of his many contacts?

[barb162]

222. Nasser, Saada

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/2/24/192928.shtml
Pro-Nazi political groups began to spring up in the 1930s, including Young Egypt, led by Abdul Gamal Nasser, with its slogan “One Folk, One Party, One Leader,” and the Social Nationalist Party of Syria, led by Anton Saada, known as the Syrian fuehrer, a precursor to the Baath socialist parties of Syria, Iraq and Libya

[barb162]

223. father in law and uncle of Saddam

Saddam Hussein is also a protégé of the Mufti through his uncle and father-in-law Khairallah Tulfah, who, along with Gen. Rashid Ali and the so-called "golden square" cabal of pro-Nazi officers, participated in the Mufti-inspired failed coup against the pro-British government of Iraq in 1941. (See "The Nazi Background of Saddam Hussein.")
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/2/24/192928.shtml

[barb162]

224. Here are GOOD people murdered by the Nazi -Mufti group

Palestinian Muslim and Christian leaders who were murdered for opposing the Mufti include Sheikh Daoud Ansari (Imam of Al Aqsa Mosque), Sheikh Ali Nur el Khattib (Al Aqsa Mosque), Sheikh Nusbi Abdal Rahim (Council of Muslim Religious Court), Sheikh Abdul el Badoui (Acre), Sheikh El Namouri (Hebron), Nasr El Din Nassr (Mayor of Hebron) and, between February1937 and November 1938, 11 Mukhtars (community leaders) and their entire families

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/2/24/192928.shtml

[barb162]

225. I can keep searching, but I think above proves the Nazi ties point

[Violet_Crumble]

241. Actually, it didn't prove anything but tenuous links...

I thought the original claim that there were direct links between the Nazis and Middle Eastern leaders of the time. Going on a google-excursion and dragging up any old url that uses the words Nazi and Arab seems to have produced vague links to Nazism through ancestors, and people who had links to Nazis who weren't in fact Middle Eastern leaders during WWII...

Violet...

[barb162]

249. These links I have provided are quite direct. There are many

more links, also quite direct, as are these, showing the Nazi influence on and connections with the Mideast.

[barb162]

250. These links prove direct and strong connections to nazism

[Name removed]

256. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

277. You haven't supplied direct links to any ME leaders...

..except for Husseini, which every man and his dog knows about. No offense, but most of yr sources were nonsensical and biased, and anyone with a real interest in events in the ME during WWII would be wasting their time trawling through that and their time would be better spent reading some of the good books that cover it. You'll find that those sorts of histories don't approach it with the agenda of Arab=rabid Nazi anti-Semite Fan Of The Holocaust, which while not serving the purpose of some folk, will give a much clearer and realistic version of events...

Violet...

[Englander]

248. The links posted certainly prove something -

and it's not anything like the original claim.

[barb162]

226. Nasser again, Anwar Sadat (from this 3 part Asia Times Online)

Islamism, or fascism with an Islamic face, was born with and of the Muslim Brotherhood. It proved (and improved) its fascist core convictions and practices through collaboration with the Nazis in the run-up to and during World War II. It proved it during the same period through its collaboration with the overtly fascist "Young Egypt" (Misr al-Fatah) movement, founded in October 1933 by lawyer Ahmed Hussein and modeled directly on the Hitler party, complete with paramilitary Green Shirts aping the Nazi Brown Shirts, Nazi salute and literal translations of Nazi slogans. Among its members, Young Egypt counted two promising youngsters and later presidents, Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar El-Sadat.

and many other names as you go through the three part series here


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/DL04Ak01.html

[barb162]

235. "Young Egypt Party, the Egyptian fascist party of the 1930s"

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/eyg1-n08.shtml
"snip
Along with the Young Egypt Party, the Egyptian fascist party of the 1930s that was later to rename itself the Socialist Party, the Brotherhood and the National Party were notorious for the violent methods they employed against both the British and the working class. With the onset of the war in Palestine in 1948, martial law was declared and the Muslim Brotherhood was outlawed. It responded by murdering the Egyptian Prime Minister.
snip"

[barb162]

238. "Young Egypt" movement (Shukeiri, Nasser, Sadat, etal)

The overtly fascist "Young Egypt" (Misr al-Fatah) movement, was founded in October 1933 by the lawyer Ahmed Hussein and was modeled directly on the German Nazi party, with paramilitary Green Shirts, Nazi salute and translations of Nazi slogans.

Major Nazi sympathizers of this era include Ahmad Shukeiri, the first chairman of the PLO; Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar Sadat; and the founders of the Pan-Arab socialist Ba'ath Party of Syria and Iraq. "Young Egypt" attracted Nasser and Sadat (who would eventually become Presidents of Egypt). Other factors may have been opportunism and playing powerful nations off each other in a period of intense fighting and in the context of the rising liberation movements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Egypt_during_World_War_II#.22Young_Egypt.22_movement

[barb162]

228. Sadat

http://www.answers.com/topic/anwar-al-sadat

"Sadat, Anwar al- (änwär' äl-sädät') , 1918–81, Egyptian political leader and president (1970–81). He entered (1936) Abbasia Military Academy, where he became friendly with Gamal Abdal Nasser and other fellow cadets committed to Egyptian nationalism. A German agent during World War II, he was imprisoned (1942) by the British but escaped after two years in jail."

[barb162]

233. Arafat mentored by the Mufti el-Husseini

"Not surprisingly then, as Italian and German fascism sought greater stakes in the Middle East in the 1930s and '40s to counter British and French controlling power, close collaboration between fascist agents and Islamist leaders ensued. During the 1936-39 Arab Revolt, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of German military intelligence, sent agents and money to support the Palestine uprising against the British, as did Muslim Brotherhood founder and supreme guide Hassan al-Banna.A key individual in the fascist-Islamist nexus and go-between for the Nazis and al-Banna became the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini—incidentally the later mentor (from 1946 onward) of a young firebrand by the name of Yasser Arafat."
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27b/081.html

[barb162]

234. History Cleansed to 're-educate' Ba'athists

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1333337,00.html

Linking nationalist history with Nazism to discourage party loyalty is getting a cool reception, writes Rory McCarthy

Rory McCarthy in Baghdad
Friday October 22, 2004


"snip

This is the first time I have heard these people were Nazis," shouted one man in the audience. "My father died believing the 1941 revolution was led by nationalists. Is this not right?"

"I know you don't agree, but if you look in the history books or go to Europe you will find the real facts," Mr Khudair replied.

"How can you describe nationalism as Nazism? How can you prove it to us?" shouted another man from the audience, Muthanna Ibrahim. "You are criticising the former regime for rewriting history but you are doing the same. I hope you are not being too hasty."

"I insist. These people had tangible links with the Nazis. Their ideology was a Nazi ideology. These are the facts.
snip"

[barb162]

187. TRANS-NATIONAL HATE: TECHNOLOGY UNITES ANTISEMITES

try this from the Simon Weisenthal Center



http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/s/content.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=253162&ct=285623
TRANS-NATIONAL HATE:
TECHNOLOGY UNITES ANTISEMITES AND HATERS AROUND THE GLOBE

snip

This means Islamic extremists and neo-Nazis from the United States to Russia, from Switzerland to Pakistan and all across the globe are finding in each other validation for their virulently antisemitic, hate-filled beliefs. And in the turbulent, post-9/11 world, theyre doing this with increasing speed and ease through the Internet.
snip
The first real evidence of this vast international collaboration was last years first-ever Holocaust denial conference, planned in the Arab world. Originally scheduled for Beirut, the Wiesenthal Center was instrumental in convincing Lebanons Prime Minister to put a stop to this insidious hate-fest of a conference.

The conference had attracted a whos who of international antisemites, from Germanys leading neo-Nazi, to Americas most notorious racist -- William Pierce, author of the infamous Turner Diaries -- and members of the Hezbollah terrorist group.
snip

[Name removed]

218. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

243. That had zero to do with WWII Middle Eastern leaders...

n/t

[barb162]

251. And it has a lot to do with present day Mideast thinking and leaders

[Violet_Crumble]

279. Ah, the Arabs = Nazis school of thought...

figures...

[plasticsundance]

14. Whatta Conundrum

That meddlesome angel that told Abraham to kill is son, is the same angel that told Mary of her virgin birth. Ah ... the very same angel that told Mohammad that the idea of Allah having a son is offensive and absurd. And all three of these religions that have listened to this angel are constantly at war with each other.

Of course, Iran is stepping into the fray, because Israel is making moves in Gaza once more. With confidence that Russia will supply it weapons, Iran can't resist a PR stunt to capture the imagination of the Arab/Muslim world.

[daleo]

54. It does make you wonder about angels, doesn't it. n/t

[cantstandbush]

19. But the "adults in charge" of foreign policy are making the world safer

and more secure. And the Palestinian issue is not the core of the problem...they just hate freedom and democracy. They hate us for our freedoms.

[Just Me]

20. WTF is his problem?!?!?!

I am so damn sick of extremists. They seem to have taken the stage all over the place. x(

[confludemocrat]

41. When they had a moderate, we made them the "axis of evil" whaddya expect?

Now Bush's leadership "qualities" are reaping their just rewards. If you had the potential to build nuclear weapons and some blusterer demagogued your country as inherently evil, you'd start in building a deterrent ASAP, too.

[hiabrill]

147. And that's the bottom-line

Extremist are taking over everywhere .....


We need to win back our world.

[sabbat hunter]

21. Iran Leader Calls for Israel's Destruction

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel

nice sentiments

</sarcasm>

[drb]

23. If you substitute "Iran" for "Israel" and "The Yew-nighted....

...States of 'Merika" for "Iran," isn't this about what the bush league is saying? What's the difference?

[Mutley]

30. Why does anyone have to blow anyone else off the map?

Damn, humans are some silly creatures sometimes.

[fbahrami]

50. Ahmadinejad does not represent the people of Iran

any more than Bush represents America.

Fortunately Iranians - due to their long history - recognize the difference between peoples and governments: they don't like the American forign policy, but love American music.

Unfortunately it's the loud rhetoric of the so-called leaders which will drive wars.

> humans are some silly creatures sometimes
why only sometimes?^0 all thru history!

[barb162]

189. he got the most votes of the candidates, didn't he?

And Bush does represent a majority in the US, no matter how unpopular his positions are right now or how he squeaked by. Bsck in 2004, people didn't choose Kerry (or it was very close)

[daleo]

32. I don't know exactly what he means, but one must be wary of propaganda

U.S. leaders often called for the end of the Soviet Union - that didn't mean the same thing as killing Russians. I think it is prudent to take these translations with a grain of salt, especially terms like Zionist regime. Although many people do use this as a synonym for Israel, it can also have a very specific political meaning. This guy could also be posturing, the same as politicians throughout the world.

This kind of reporting could easily become the basis for a new Bush war, killing hundreds of thousands of Iranians and tens of thousands of Americans. Israel could get caught up in the backwash of such a conflict too, and suffer thousands of deaths.

It all seems too convenient.

[Strawman]

48. Yep. Lots of hot air

If the Iranians ever seriously threaten to annhilate Israel, Israel is fully capable of annhilating them first. This is the kind of situation where it would have been nice if the Bush administration hadn't completely undermined our ability to conduct diplomacy so there would be an incentive to countries like Iran to refrain from engaging in that kind of dangerous brinksmanship. We would be wise to try to deflate the rhetoric rather than ramp up our own aggressive rhetoric.

[daleo]

53. Yes, exactly

I hardly need to add that Clinton was generally very good at doing exactly what you are recommending.

[lovuian]

34. I see Iran has their own Bush & Cheney!!! This is heading to

WWIII

[0007]

35. Accordingly,

Harsh words for Israel are common in Iran, especially at this time of year, the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. In Iran, this Friday — the last Muslim day of prayer in the Ramadan holiday — has been declared Quds Day, or Jerusalem Day. Rallies were slated in support of Palestinians — and against Israel's occupation of parts of the city and other Palestinian lands.

Makes for a good talking point for this corrupt administration, to start bombing.

Clinton kept the situation in the middle east relatively calm while junior has things stirred up to a fervor.

[goforit]

36. OMG!!!......unbelievable!!!

[jseankil]

37. Israel cannot allow Iran to have nuclear program. /nm

nm

[wordout]

43. yes. we must remember the holocaust.

[Lilith Velkor]

59. WTF did Iran have to do with the holocaust?

[Jim Sagle]

105. Not a damn thing, but they obviously want to cause another one.

[Lilith Velkor]

110. Yeah, and how about that timing?

I'm sure they are gonna attack Israel any minute. With their, um, WMDs. :eyes:

[wuushew]

47. why not?

n/t

[HereSince1628]

55. Because it would threaten Israeli hegemony and dream of greater Israel

If someone else develops nuclear weapons, Israel can be deterred for using its own.

[Coastie for Truth]

58. Did Israel use their nukes in 67

when the Straits of Tiran were closed (hint: a violation of International Law -- Google "Corfu Channel"), or during the Yom Kippur War.

Question - what level of DefCon was the US on during the Cuban Missile crisis.

As I recall the only power ever to use nukes in war was PRESIDENT HARRY S. TRUMAN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

[Colorado Blue]

117. I don't think anybody's dreaming of "Greater Israel". There

might be a few on the edges but the majority of Israelis supported the withdrawal from Gaza, even Sharon has voiced public support for a Palestinian state, and if nothing else convinces you - look at the security fence which is being constructed more or less along the path of the Green Line - adding some padding along the vulnerable edges of Jerusalem and the very narrow (6 miles) width of central Israel. That pretty much confirms the fact that the eventual border of Israel won't include the West Bank, much as the Biblical folks would like to claim their ancient lands.

Meanwhile the threat of annihilation is taken seriously by people who've been nearly wiped out on the European continent only a few decades ago.

Do you think the Israelis should listen to this kind of rhetoric, then cheer heartily at the concept of such a leader with a nuclear bomb?

[Englander]

125. Have you heard of the National Union party?

'The Israeli political party, the National Union Party (Ha ihud Haleumi) was formed in 1999 by Rehavam Zeevi, the leader of the Rightwing Moledet (Homeland party) in alliance with the Tekuma and Yisrael Beitenu parties. Yisrael Beitenu was led by Avigdor Lieberman, former secretary to Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu (1996-1999). Lieberman emigrated to Israel from the (former) Soviet Union in the early 1980s and became leader of the party in 2002 following the assassination of Rehavam Zeevi (the Israeli tourism minister) by PFLP in the Hyatt hotel in Jerusalem. The National Union party sees it objective to "become a ruling party in association with other parties that share the values and ideology of the national camp, i.e. the realization of Zionist goals, and respect for the heritage and values of the Jewish people." The party is made up of both secular and religious Jews, with current deputy leader Benny Elon receiving training as a Rabbi, while its Russian component (Yisrael Beitenu) is largely secular.

The National Union pledges that another political entity besides Israel "will not rise between Jordan and the sea." It also states as an objective that "the funds which were being transferred to the Palestinian Authority by the Israeli government, will henceforth be used for reparations for the damage Israel has suffered during the period of terror." The National Union agenda states that it" seeks true peace based on agreement between the parties (Israel and the Arabs)." The National Union recognises that within the framework of any agreement, it is necessary to solve the Palestinian Arab refugee problem-- refugees who have spent the past 55 years in refugee camps. These refugees were created by the Arab states when they initiated wars against Israel both in 1948(War of Independence) and 1967 (Six Day war) with the objective of destroying the Jewish state.

The National Union's proposed solution is "transfer by agreement (population exchange) by which the refugees would be settled in Arab countries in place of Jews who emigrated to Israel from these countries." Approximately 1 million Jews emigrated to Israel from the Arab world in the period 1948-1968 and today they constitute (inclusive of their descendants) 2.7 million Israeli citizens. The National Union seeks to bring attention to the plight of the Jewish refugees from the Arab world and sees the Arab states as responsible for the refugee problem "both Jewish and Arab".

The party won 7 out of the 120 seats in the 16th Knesset (Israeli parliament) in the elections held in January 2003.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Union_Party

[Colorado Blue]

152. Wow. 7 out of 120. That's a real threat. EOM.

[Englander]

165. And the 5th largest party -

You knew that, right?

'Results of Elections to the 16th Knesset - Jan 28- 2003
28 Jan 2003
ELECTIONS IN ISRAEL JANUARY 2003

Votes by party list:

LIST No. of seats No. of votes % of votes

Likud 38 925,279 29.4%
Labor-Meimad 19 455,183 14.5%
Shinui 15 386,535 12.3%
Shas 11 258,879 8.2%
National Union 7 173,973 5.5%
Meretz 6 164,122 5.2%
National Religious Party 6 132,370 4.2%
Torah and Shabbat Judaism 5 135,087 4.3%
Hadash 3 93,819 3.0%
Am Ehad 3 86,808 2.8%
National Democratic Assembly (Balad) 3 71,299 2.3%
Yisrael Ba'aliya 2 67,719 2.2%
United Arab List 2 65,551 2.1%

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Modern%20History/Historic%20Events/Results%20of%20Elections%20to%20the%2016th%20Knesset%20-%20Jan%2028-

[barb162]

188. Bwaha! You talk about 5.5%? Worry about Hamas with 35%!

of the vote with Palestinians

[Name removed]

215. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

240. The original claim of only a few was false...

Focus on that. 5.5% is a fair bit more than 'only a few'...

Violet...

[barb162]

255. Focus on 35% Hamas. That is also way more than "only a few"

[Violet_Crumble]

278. I'll focus on what was actually being discussed, thanks...

n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

131. Not to worry

I think the US is getting ready to take care of this ... just a little side benefit for Israel and Superhero George defeats the Axis...

Coinkydink? You decide!

[soda]

44. check for yourself

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said here Wednesday that establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world hegemonic system and arrogant powers against the world of Islam.

Speaking at a gathering of the representatives of the
Palestinian combatant groups residing in Tehran, members of the society to defend the Palestinian nation and members of the Pupils Islamic Association, he added that a historical fight is underway between world arrogant powers and the Muslim world.

Turning to the fluctuating trend of campaign against the global arrogance by Muslims over the past three centuries, the chief executive noted, "The world arrogant powers founded the Zionist regime at the heart of the Muslim world as a base for their own expansionist intentions."
He said that today the Palestinian nation, as the representative of Islamic Umma, is standing up to the world hegemonic system.

"Ever since the Palestinian nation focused attention on promotion of an Islamic atmosphere and attitude, day-to-day success and progress have been witnessed among Palestinians," he said.

Ahmadinejad pointed to the meeting dubbed "A World Without Zionism" and criticized those sowing the seed of disappointment in materializing such a goal and attempting to undermine the world of Islam.

He added that a world without the US and Israel would be possible.

In another part of his speech, he urged the need for unity, solidarity and consensus on the Palestinian cause by the Islamic states.

"Today, supporting the Palestinian nation and objective is a definite and indispensable principle for continued campaign to achieve victory.

"The palestinian issue has not ended. It would end when a government belonging to the Palestinian people takes over, the homeless return home and a free election is held to form a government representing all people," he added.
http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0510265904171054.htm
is this what was said?

[jseankil]

46. ``As the imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map,'' said Ahmadinejad

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5371111,00.html





According to IRNA, he expressed his firm belief that the new wave of confrontations in Palestine and the growing turmoil in the Islamic world would in no time wipe Israel away.

http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Iran/190743

[soda]

57. what he said

Speaking at a conference, dubbed "World without Zionism" on Wednesday, which was attended by thousands of Iranian students in Tehran, the Iranian leader said any country which acknowledges Israel will actually acknowledge the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world.



According to IRNA, he expressed his firm belief that the new wave of confrontations in Palestine and the growing turmoil in the Islamic world would in no time wipe Israel away.




Ahmadinejad referred to Israel's recent withdrawal from the Gaza Strip as a "trick," saying Gaza Strip is part of the Palestinian territory and the pullout was meant to make Islamic states acknowledge Israel.


Pointing to the evil attempts of the US and Israel to saw discord among the Palestinian factions, the president said such attempts were aimed at forcing some Islamic countries to acknowledge the existence of Israel.

[confludemocrat]

45. IRAN Prez is emboldened by the utter lame-ass FAILURE in Iraq.

And the coming of a Shiite fundamentalist gvt. How are you gonna stop them now, Bush? Too late. All our eggs are in the Iraq basket. Bush is mired in disaster there, just in time and just in a way that makes this guy's threats against Israel unanswerable in any sane way.

[jmowreader]

49. All dictators do this. Not news.

I don't care whether it's some Muslim theocratic dictator saying he's going to destroy Israel, the leader of Oceania saying he's going to destroy Eastasia, Kim Jong Il saying he's going to turn Seoul into a smoking hole, or Krushchev saying he's going to bury the west, every dictator who ever existed uses Destroying Those Guys Over There as a way to rally his people.

Hey Ahmadinejad! I'm on to you!

[barb162]

60. Iran Leader Calls for Israel's Destruction

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5371437,00.html

Iran Leader Calls for Israel's Destruction

Wednesday October 26, 2005 6:16 PM



By NASSER KARIMI

Associated Press Writer

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad declared Wednesday that Israel is a ``disgraceful blot'' that should be ``wiped off the map'' - fiery words that Washington said underscores its concern over Iran's nuclear program.

Ahmadinejad's speech to thousands of students at a ``World without Zionism'' conference set a hard-line foreign policy course sharply at odds with that of his moderate predecessor, echoing the sentiments of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the founder of Iran's Islamic revolution.

snip
Ahmadinejad also condemned Iran's neighbors which seek to break new ground in their relations with Israel. ``Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury,'' state-run television quoted him as saying.


snip

Referring to Palestinian suicide bomb attacks in Israel, Ahmadinejad said: ``there is no doubt that the new wave in Palestine will soon wipe off this disgraceful blot from the face of the Islamic world.''
snip

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

61. The best way to destroy an enemy

is to make them your friend. Ahmadinejad has forgotten that all People of the Book should be respected.

[tatertop]

62. He is a dangerous man

What is the point of such rhetoric?

[bemildred]

63. Ahmadinejad seems to be a nationalist blowhard.

He seems to wave the bloody shirt in pursuit of power as well
as any politician I know.

[barb162]

64. Thank you, very well said

may I ask who said that first sentence

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

68. It is part of a story attributed to

Abraham Lincoln.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. Ahhh-The Bloody Shirt

It was a metaphor for the Civil War that the Republicans used to wave to remind the nation of the havoc the south created by seceding...

[RethugAssKicker]

65. What an idiot.. How did this man get to power?

[stillcool]

66. probably the same way ours did....

cheat, lie, and steal.

[Lexingtonian]

67. (yawn)

You know, I'm fine with these things being posted every now and then. But this general vein of playing up Middle Eastern hyperbole, which is culturally conventional in the region, and misinterpreting it as a material rather than a psychological statement....

I always thought the Commandment was against false witness, i.e. misportrayal of people as evil or innocent when the informed observer could properly tell otherwise. Likudnik propaganda always violates this Commandment.

[pelsar]

69. likudnik propaganda?

where does that come from....the president of iran simply stated that israel should be exterminated.....

[Colorado Blue]

71. Yeah - I'm kind of sick of this sort of response. I'm especially

not feeling real kindly this morning, due to the bombing at Hadera, which draped the town with dead people and body parts.

[Andromeda]

120. I feel very sad about that.

I'm pretty sick of those extremist blowhards spouting their hateful rhetoric.

[Behind the Aegis]

122. It's Israel's fault!

Oh, wait...sorry, I was channeling an "Israel is always wrong" person! I don't mean to be so violent.

What you have said is true. Many of us are tired of "extremist blowhards spouting their hateful rhetoric," almost as much as many of us are tired of those that excuse this behavior as "regrettable!"

We laugh at those on the right who blame France for all the terrorism being allowed to happen, but when the "left" does it to Israel, those that defend Israel are called all kinds of names.

Today a terrorist attack took place in Israel, again! How many people said they were "sorry it happened?" No! It was all Israel's fault! "I guess the wall isn't working!" "It is Likudnik propaganda!" How is this any different from "Jews are responsible for the Holocaust?!"

There is now a locked thread in I/P about "dead Jews." Just look at the reaction here...terrorist attack in Israel...any post in LBN about it was moved here...most of those posts (within the thread were updates), the one thread that still exists in LBN...not a damn response!

I guess lessons weren't learned, except by Jews, because we seem to be well on the road to another Holocaust.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. The President Of Iran Just Wants To Foment Dissension

Israel has made overtures to Pakistan and Kuwait which have been received cordially...


The Iranian president is pissed because some nations want to pull back from the abyss...

[Colorado Blue]

108. That's an interesting point. Thanks. eom

[Colorado Blue]

70. Oh give me a break. The Iranians haven't just been talking,

they've been supporting terrorist groups - Hizbollah in particular, and arming them, for decades.

That's the genesis of the Israeli fear of the Iranian nuclear program. They're not concerned that Iran might use a reactor for energy, they're concerned that that they might well use it to create bombs to drop on Israel. Iranian clerics have actually speculated that it would be possible to wipe out Israel's 6 million citizens whilst the majority of Islam's 1.3 billion would survive the counterstrike.

This isn't mere rhetoric. And this isn't the Likud "bearing false witness". Even the FRENCH have called the Iranians to task on this and the Spanish have summoned the Iranian ambassador to complain about these reckless statements. This is extremely serious.

Similar comments have been made about Middle Eastern Jews since at least the 1930's. Shamefully, Middle Eastern leaders associated themselves with Hitler, who promised to help them wipe out every Jew in the Middle East when the job was finished in Europe.

Given the fact that almost every Jew in Europe was wiped out only a few decades ago, we tend to take this sort of rhetoric seriously.

[Lexingtonian]

79. Oh, sure.

Sadly, Israel doesn't have nuclear weapons and is purely a victim.

Oh, wait, that's not true.

And if you ever actually listen to Arabs and Palestinians, this facile and stupid equating them with Europeans that is the tacit or overt convention in American Right and neocon discourse and Jewish PC utterly infuriates them. You have to admit, it is a smear.

[Colorado Blue]

109. WHAT?

[Coastie for Truth]

72. Everything gets blamed on Likud or Israel or Jews

RX:

[barb162]

73. It's not hyperbolic and that is the problem

I'd say there's just way too much acting out by militants on exactly this kind of sickass, war-mongering rhetoric by the leaders.

[Lexingtonian]

78. It's exactly this sort of lumping

and unwillingness to make distinctions or admit cultural context that annoys me to no end.

[Coastie for Truth]

80. Lumping?

And what is this:

I always thought the Commandment was against false witness, i.e. misportrayal of people as evil or innocent when the informed observer could properly tell otherwise. Likudnik propaganda always violates this Commandment.

BTW - there's a good discussion of "false witness" in Tractate Makkos of Talmud.

[Lexingtonian]

83. Sorry.

Maybe the propaganda only exaggerates Arab power and applies a European standard of interpretation to Arab/Palestinian pronouncements 99% of the time.

Nice strawman, though. But I still notice that neither you or the person I responded to is backing up the magical thinking that links (random Iranian leader rhetoric) -> (Palestinian militants blow up people earlier in the day). Or whatever s/he was trying to assert as connected through an Astral Plane.

[barb162]

87. astral plane? magical thinking? My goodness, this is planet earth

calling

[Coastie for Truth]

89. Sorry your lumping/conflating me with somebody else

I am not the one who is engaging in" the magical thinking that links (random Iranian leader rhetoric) -> (Palestinian militants blow up people earlier in the day)."

As to the "Astral Plane" I am not into either ecstasy or game design, so the witticism was wasted on me.

[barb162]

93. First, you need to back up your

magical thinking about the Iranian prez and what he does/doesn't mean. Second, take a look at the first sentence of the NY Times article for the connection their reporter makes with the clown's statement and "...attacks by Palestinians will destroy it...."

Iran's President Says Israel Must Be 'Wiped Off the Map'
By NAZILA FATHI
Published: October 26, 2005
TEHRAN, Oct. 26 - Iran's new hard-line president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, told a group of students at an anti-Israel event today that Israel must be "wiped off the map" and that attacks by Palestinians will destroy it, the Iranian student news agency, ISNA, reported.

snip

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/26/international/middleeast/26cnd-iran.html

[Lexingtonian]

95. Hmmm

An Iranian leader goes to an anti-Israel event. Now what exactly did you think he was going to say and have to say there? 'Uh, it was all a misunderstanding, the Iran-Contra deals are back on, never mind that their penny-wise pound-foolish supporters keep agitating in Washington to bomb and invade us'?

I myself can wipe Israel off the map in two minutes. Send me the map and a hard rubber eraser, and I'll show you.

[barb162]

99. Why is he allowing this meeting in his country?

If he didn't approve he could shut it down with a snap of his fingers. At the very least, he didn't have to attend it. He not only attends it, he speaks at it, and further, he called for the annihilation of a sovereign nation. He knows exactly what he's doing. Remember this guy was a follower of the Ayatollah K. He's a hardliner conservative. (And when the American US Embassy hostages say they remember him as one of their captors, personally I believe 'em.)

[Colorado Blue]

111. That is hardly an astral plane connection. More like a cargo

plane connection: as in, cargo planes full of weapons, delivered to Lebanon, along with some serious money.

For heaven's sake if you're going to comment on these matters please educate yourself. This is hardly a Deep Dark Secret.

[Andromeda]

121. You know something?????

You make absolutely no sense at all.

[pelsar]

82. cultural context...

and them blames it on likud propaganda.....what has the likud have to do with the iranian president saying israel should be wiped out?

and since when is such talk "cultural" hence not to be taken seriously? and since when can leaders of countries threaten other countries all the while having some "nice" (re useful idiotes) people claim that "they really dont mean it"...they're really wonderful people who just want to wipe out 6 million people.....

[Lexingtonian]

84. I'm glad you can read minds

and tell me with certainty when they do and don't mean it. I mean, I remember Saddam Hussein's talk during the Kuwait War, and if 10% of it had been materially true then I/P would be a smoking radioactive wasteland at the moment.

Instead, a few chemical warheads fell mostly into scrub desert. A few-one or two, iirc- hit buildings and demolished them.

I consider the statements cultural because I actually know some history of the region, anthropology of it, war histories, and so on and something of the normal discourse level now. Hyperbole is a traditional and high rhetorical art in the region. The Hebrew Bible is full of it- the Book of Numbers can't be literally true, 'Saul slew thousands, but David slew tens of thousands' was an Israelite saying, and a hundred others. The point of the language is not to assert material fact in an objective way but to make emphatic the truth on a psychological plane. When the sun 'stood still' because Joshua told it to, the point is not about the Earth stopping in its rotation but about the way psychologically events seemed to pass on that battlefield in a way disconnected from everyday time.

If you want the best treatise on the material vs psychological center of the worldview and thinking and its manifestations in stuff like rhetoric that contrasts Western (i.e. European) and Middle Eastern (i.e. Semitic) cultures/civilizations, I recommend Thorvald Boman's "Hebrew Thought Compared To Greek" if you want to start from Western premises. Martin Buber's essay collection of his 1908-1920s Zionist lectures (I think the English compilation is titled "On Judaism") covers very much the same material starting halfway between the two.

they're really wonderful people who just want to wipe out 6 million people.....

Tell me you believe this entirely true, and I'll show you an idiot.

[pelsar]

85. no i cant...and neither can you.....

"and tell me with certainty when they do and don't mean it."

and none of your sources deal with theocratic islamic regimes in a persian country of the 21st century that hang little girls that have big mouth....stone people for adulty, send children into mind fields, hang gays etc...


You consider the statements cultural because you probably having a hard time believing someone would do such a thing...but then you probably couldnt imagine them hanging a little girl for having "a big mouth"...or perhaps you couldnt imaging them making a tv series about israelis taking palestenain organs for their own use..

....well maybe they will and maybe they wont....i just dont think anyone should even consider such a thing...and others should not be making excuses for them

more so....why would ANYONE give excuses for a head of a country that expresses the need to wipe out a different country.....try using a single yardstick for moral values...it will keep you from tripping over yourself

[Lexingtonian]

92. no, but I don't pretend to

and I certainly don't see the paranoid interpretation or the culturally illiterate one(s) as at all wise or most useful ones. Aggressive paranoid schizophrenics become too dangerous and ultimately get forcibly locked up or killed by their communities, that's a sad lesson to keep in mind in Middle Eastern politics.

I don't know where you get the idea that Iran now is somehow beyond understanding. It's a more intensified form of its medieval and pre-Islamic culture, and so is the present in the Red State United States. Stoning people for adultery and putting them in the front lines of battle and killing people for sexual misdeeds seems rather familiar from Biblical accounts too, if I may point that out. And about convicting Islamic theocracies of such things, that village council in Pakistan that sentenced a woman to be raped for her brother's premarital relationship or whatever it was, that was in a country run by a secular government. The regional country where gays were publicly executed prior to the Iranian incidents, well, that would be Saudi Arabia.

Agitation and interference in such countries/societies to become Modern at some outsider's pace is stupid and the reactionary people there lash out. That's the political lesson illustrated by bin Laden, by Iraq, by Palestinians, isn't it? Removing the interference to the largest extent possible and letting these societies evolve to Modernity on their own terms and at a pace set by themselves is the only wise approach.

No one's making excuses for what was said. But if you were actually fair-minded and not locked into a tribalist absolutism yourself, you would admit that what an Iranian leader says has to be taken on Iranian terms.

[pelsar]

98. and you dont understand iranians.....

too much 'book learning"...you should get out more.

as far as taking what he said on Iranian terms...that is precisly what i am doing. Understanding that their leadership is trapped in the 12 century where cruelty to enemies was the value of the day...where wiping out your enemies and taking their women for you own was moral...

what he said was precisly what he meant....as that is exactly what the morals of a theorcratic 12 century govt are all about.....dont be so western ethnocentric...as if you can understand the persian islamic mind.....you cant.

and btw...you seem here to "understand them"
It's very clearly a speaking style. As for whether it is a perfect guide to intention- there's very much a custom of speaking as extremely as the audience wants to hear or can bear, and making up one's mind about how much or how little of it to implement afterwards.

so make up your mind...do you understand them or not...

[Lexingtonian]

100. gee, that's a tough choice

My Iranian and Iranian-American friends haven't made any of these points to me, though.

I'm a little puzzled that you think 'cruelty to enemies was the value of the day...where wiping out your enemies and taking their women for your own was moral....' That's not quite it. Have a look at what happened to Iran when the Mongols invaded a couple of centuries earlier.

I can't live those mindsets either. But the more you do understand of people of the past, the more rational their behavior in their situation or circumstances seems. They're never as humane in the ways you imagine, but they're never inhumane in quite the easy way you imagine either. Their world was less able to tolerate some things ours can, say carriers of diseases, and we in turn can't/won't tolerate stuff that happened or existed in theirs- widows killing themselves at their husbands' funerals, the amount of manual labor needed for survival and level of maternal death in childbirth that led to the strict gender roles and classes of servitude. etc.

As for the thing about speaking style, Yassir Arafat's speeches are perfect illustrations of the amount of disconnect between what gets said in a believable way and what gets done. In the Arab world his behavior was not considered unconventional, it was that the sheer amount of pronouncements and small actions that took place were too much to fully keep good track of. 'Here's he's saying what Hamas wants him to, that assertion is probably so that King Abdullah doesn't complain about X, this is a jab at the Kahane crowd, he's trying to avoid insulting Sharon but getting a dig in at Netanyahu with that turn of phrase, that pointed comment is a allusion to the settler riot in Hebron two months ago, yet another use of a Koran phrase, that's a subtle dis at Fatah commander Y (did they have another fight about Z?)....'

[Colorado Blue]

112. And permit me to point out that the Biblical references to

which you insist upon comparing the Iranian president's rhetoric occurred several thousand years ago, and were not uttered by the head of a would-be nuclear power.

[barb162]

88. I think you're confusing bombastic and overblown

(or hyperbolic) medieval and previous writing styles with what this Iran clown was saying today. I think this jerk means what he says. And look at the group to whom he was speaking. Take a look at his biography.

[Lexingtonian]

94. It's not just writing style

It's very clearly a speaking style. As for whether it is a perfect guide to intention- there's very much a custom of speaking as extremely as the audience wants to hear or can bear, and making up one's mind about how much or how little of it to implement afterwards.

Desert people are ideological extremists, their physical world being extremely hostile much of the time and the creatures in it likewise, and the ideology is preparation for the best and the worst that is in the range of their normal experience. Desert life makes for passionate people and passionate people and trust people who speak passionately. In most other culture environments, e.g. the white United States, passion is what makes people do things dangerous and disruptive to order, to the collective.

[barb162]

96. His predecessor was way more mild mannered, how do you explain that

That predecessor didn't have to stand around and do a war-mongering "style." It is not "natural" or endemic to the Mideast although I will grant you that several leaders there do speak this way. BUT NOT ALL. I don't see Jordan's leader ever doing it. This guy is doing this sick bombastic horseshit for a reason. It's totally unnecessary unless he means it. Considering he's a college grad and all, I am going to make the assumption he says what he intends. Tell me, why is he at a anti-zionist meeting? Why isn't he shutting that meeting down instead of fanning the flames? Because he means what he says. And that's why I say it isn't hyperbole and strutting around; he means it.

[pelsar]

97. you've got to be kidding.....

the president of irans is talking about wiping out israel because hes from a desert climate?...heh heh heh....so if sharon (whos farm is in the negev) would talk about nuking iran, you'll defend him as "just talk'?....

the attempt to excuse a countries leader for saying its ok to wipe out an existing country due to the local environmental conditions is absurd. They are passionate....and speak passionately...and if we follow the same psychology we can then say they also act "passionatly. Passion meaning not "western logical"

...since they are not western logical, but passionate, when the president speaks passionately about wiping out israel....we can assume that such passion is then accepted and the may or may not meant it..but if he got the listeners excited...well they may just volunteer for the suicide club or go to help hamas.

your attempt at psycho environmental analysis is really absurd....you should get out sometime and meet some persians....they do not have the repuation of being passionate

[Lexingtonian]

101. fuckin' Aye

I don't set my standards high in I/P stuff, but the level of cultural ignorance and inability to step outside stereotypes and American conventions here is ridiculous for people who propose to have informed opinions.

The distinctive quality of Western thought is said to be rigor of argument. All this free association and then imputing claims to me is just dizzying.

Passion: from Latin 'to bear, to suffer'. In the West generally combined with the idea of love or other irresistable emotion, i.e. in composite: intensest love or other deepest emotion is that manifests itself as being so great it makes the person afflicted with it suffer.

It's been 2-3 hours without an insightful or wonderfully perverse and killing response and my dog is getting very upset that it's past her walk time. I'll be back and see whether anyone actually has a compelling and proper argument against something I actually argued around midnight.

[pelsar]

106. its your standard...

its pathetic excuses of "environmental conditions made him say it"...or its "genetic" is the real joke.

bottom line? the head of a country threatens a second country.....we call that unacceptable.......

[Colorado Blue]

115. We'll be waiting with bated breath.

[pelsar]

118. Lexingtons high standards....

you've already made it clear that the president of iran "couldnt control himself" due to his genetic upbringing in the desert environment.

this is important information....so when we listen to other leaders from arid environments we'll be using "your cultural/genetic filter to understand better what their saying.

having had a course or two in genetics, seems to me, if the environment has affected the iranians in a specific way, other environments obviously have affected other world leaders as well.

perhaps you could give us a breakdown of genetically induced cultural traits for the following climates:

temperate
semi arid
semi humid
etc?

I do understand that your claiming the addition of historical/bibical culture has had its affects on the personality of the various leaders as well, so you may place that influence within the "filter"

of course we'll need an explanation of the balance of genetically induced personality traits vs modern culture vs bibical cultures influence as well......i'm sure you have a good "formula" to apologise er explain how you can decifer what hes saying for the "rest of us"

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coastie for Truth]

90. You know what the three most over rated things in the world are

Home cooking

Marital fidelity

Harvard University.

[barb162]

91. bwa

I thought the fourth might be the astral plane

[rinsd]

156. "I'll show you an idiot."

Hey no fair using mirrors!

[barb162]

86. Wha????

The cultural context is as I said; the leaders encouraging and promoting the destruction of a sovereign state is not, I repeat not, hyperbole. That jerk from Iran means it.

[occuserpens]

113. Revolutionary language as usual

<The cultural context is as I said; the leaders encouraging and promoting the destruction of a sovereign state is not, I repeat not, hyperbole. That jerk from Iran means it.>

This is generic revolutionary rhetoric.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. What Does This Have To Do With Likud?

The president of Iran said it...

[pelsar]

77. ask Lexingtonian...

hes the one who claimed it was likud propaganda.....(why am i not shocked?)

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coastie for Truth]

81. There are some appenders in I/P who love to point fingers at Israel

for actions of Iranians, for Global Warming, for Peak Oil, for whatever.

[occuserpens]

137. Fists, not fingers

Revolutions are fought by fists, not fingers

[Coastie for Truth]

103. Next step?

Long range - what could be worse then any "military retaliation" or "reprisal" by Israel. And, I would argue that the real victims - long range - of a series of suicide bombings and ongoing terror - are the Palestinian proletariat.

* All of the church people "divestments" of companies doing business in Israel, or the West Bank -- simply raises the "War Risk Premium" on investments in Palestinian entrepreneurial enterprises.

* Any "boycott" of Israeli universities - doesn't reduce the seminars and conferences at Israeli Universities - just the Brit and Aussie participation. But it decreases the desirability of going to Palestinian, Saudi, or Egyptian seminars and conferences.

* Results: More of a Palestinian "Brain Drain" then an "Israeli" Brain Drain.


* More results: More of a Palestinian Capital Drain then an Israeli Capital Drain

* THE PALESTINIANS ARE SHOOTING THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT.- It's like a feed back amplifier - any damage the Palestinians do to Israel is fed back to them (economic disincentives, etc.) amplified.

Then the vocal advocates for the Palestinians (right or wrong - they are "oppressed third world people" - no matter that they are oppressed by their own people) turn around and blame Israel when the Palestinian's best and brightest go to Bangalore or Austin or Silicon Valley--

And these advocates turn around and blame Israel when the Church people's divestments scare investment away them.

And these same advocates turn around and blame Israel when academician boycotts hurt the own (boycotting) universities more then the Israeli universities.

The suicide bombings themselves may give a Palestinian faction and their vocal advocates an ego high -- but it makes the Palestinian proletariat less viable in a 21st Century world.

This has become a self-fulfilling prophecy and a death spiral for Palestinian aspirations.

[Coastie for Truth]

104. Canada blasts Iran for seeking Israeli destruction, Reuters - Canada

Canada strongly condemned Iran's president on Wednesday for urging that Israel be "wiped off the map," saying the comments were particularly worrying because of Tehran's nuclear ambitions.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad made his remarks on Wednesday, the official IRNA news agency reported.

"This is the 21st century. We cannot tolerate comments of such hatred, such anti-Semitism, such intolerance," Foreign Minister Pierre Pettigrew told reporters.

"And these comments are all the more troubling (given) that we know of Iran's nuclear ambitions. So I think it is very important that all countries do stand up together to make sure that we do not accept that Iran continues a nuclear program."

Edited for copyright fair use -- read more --->

An interesting end note is that Reuters reports that Canada plans to put forward a resolution at the United Nations for the third year in a row accusing Iran of human rights violations.

[occuserpens]

107. Iran leader's words 'sicken' UK

Political "morality" aside, New Labour has all grounds to feel sick. The more pressure they put on the ME, the more revolutionary language they get from Iran. Forget Vietnam and Chinese cultural revolution, Maoism had no roots in the W.Europe. Forget the Sunni Al-Queda, they have nothing to do with Khomeinism.
Now, following the Bolshevik revolutionary logic, Ahmadinejad blasts Israel and wages the Shiite revolution in the ME. This, in turn, incites euro-Muslims. This is what really sickens the New Labour! Not that they can do much about it.

Iran leader's words 'sicken' UK
Britain is to summon a top Iranian diplomat to protest against his president's comments about Israel.[br />Hardline Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called for the Jewish state to be "wiped off the map".
The Foreign Office will call in Iran's London charg d'affaires on Thursday. It said the comments were "deeply disturbing and sickening".

ME monitoring blog

[hiabrill]

133. Oh damn now the focus from Fitz......

..... will divert to Iran....!!


It would seem that Iran wants to follow Israels example.


Iran talks about destroying Israel, but Israel is "in-the-process" of destroying the Palestinians.


Israel should turn toward a peaceful settlement that is "just" to all parties. You cannot build an aparthied wall, assassinate their leaders, destroy family houses and hope for peace...!!


All human beings deserve "Liberty", "Justice" and "Freedom"....


Fuck Iran and Israel, let's get the focus back to Fitzma.....

[pelsar]

134. anyway..

iran doesnt mean it...nor did nasser....nor did those invading armies of 48...nah....they all just great kidders arent they.....

[hiabrill]

161. Israel is doing it to Palestinians...

...right now...! no need to imagine anything


The situation now and during Nassers time is different. The Iranians can do nothing, just like Saddam and his Nukes. That's the truth, yet you refuse to look beyond the rhetoric.


I believe Jews and Muslims are both stuck in a prophesy mind-loop. Neither can cut them selves loose from working to achieve the end game.

The central role of religion makes this an impossible situation.

[eyl]

135. Oh?

but you can blow up Israeli malls and shoot their children and hope for peace?

And for an entity trying to destroy the Palestinians, Israel is doing a rather piss-poor job of it.

[hiabrill]

144. all the violence should stop at once

The UN can enforce a peace, but the US has used its VETO at every opportunity to bring a "FAIR" & "JUST" peace to the M.E.


It is possible and I'm still hopeful.


Kindly note: Israel has killed more children compared to the Palestinians. But that is not the issue here.


Israel is NOT an innocent victimized nation.... It doesn't have the moral authority to object to the Iranian leaders comments IMHO.

[eyl]

154. I think you mean

"the US has used its VETO at every opportunity to avoidbringing...", no?

And in any case, you're incorrect. While it's a somewhat popular rhetorical point to say that the US vetos every UNSC resolution critical of Israel, that's not actually true; as is often pointed out (often by the same people making the previous point), there are quite a few UNSC resolutions critical of Israel. The resolutions vetoed by the US tend to be some of those which criticise Israel in an unbalanced manner.

And as for your kindly note - if you have search priveleges here, look up the analysis I did a while back comparing the demographics if Israeli and Palestinian under-18 casualties; it has some interesting indicators (if you don't want to/can't find that thread, I can give you a link on Sunday; alternatively, look up ict.org's "an engineered tragedy").

And regardless of what Israel has or has not done, why does it need moral authority to comments directed against its existance? To take a somewhat strained (and exaggerated) analogy, that's like saying a criminal can't object to someone threatening to kill him.

[hiabrill]

158. yes that's what I meant....

Your words: "What Israel has or has not done" seems like an attempt to avoid the "PRIMARY" issue. And mind you Israel is doing it now and will continue..!


Regardless, nice analogy, now let's put our "criminal" into the right perspective. We have a criminal on the loose with a gun in his hand who can kill with impunity. Can he object when the police threaten to kill him??? Can he object when he enters private property and the owner puts a gun to his head and threatens to kill him???


The existence of Israel has come at a great loss and suffering of others. It cannot correct the wrongs, but it can make genuine amends.



The US Admin, to date, doesn't care about a balance on issues related to Israel. It has never been about having a fair balance between Arabs and Israel, the US is 100% biased toward Israel and that is the bottom-line.

If a Senator dared to mention a need for a balanced foreign policy where Israel was concerned, you'd get a riot.

If you believe the US vetoed resolutions that were not balanced, then you'd believe Fox is fair and balanced.

A balance would in fact be a step in the right direction......

Are you advocating a balance?? yes / no ..?

[eyl]

169. As I recall

Iran has attacked Israel (by proxy), not the other way around. So your expansion of my anlogy is irrelevent.

You don't have to take my word for the nature of the vetoed resolutions; look them up, and compare them to those that weren't vetoed.

And a lot of the "wrongs" you cite Israel has having comitted was a result of wrongs comitted against Israel. I don't see anyone asing for "amends" for those.

[occuserpens]

136. 2.5 revolutions

Two revolutions, not two civilizations clash around Iran: neoconservative and Khomeinist. In this situation, European authorities should better think twice. They have euro-Muslim problem on their hands, and ME crisis makes it worse and worse.
Meanwhile, Israelis know exactly what they are doing. Their call to expel Iran is not that different from destruction of the UN.


The European Union and Russia have joined condemnation of the Iranian president's public call for Israel to be "wiped off the map".
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's remark has already been condemned by individual EU states and Canada who all summoned Iranian diplomats for an explanation.
A top Israeli minister called for Iran to be expelled from the United Nations.

[hiabrill]

143. Israel should also be kicked out of the UN....

....for it's hundreds of UN resolution violations..!!

Why the double standards....?

Why are Israel nukes overlooked....?


The Israel conflict with Muslims didn't start yesterday...! It started with the occupation of Palestinian land. Give the Arabs back their land and peace will reign for a 100 years, at least.

It's so simple....


The Problem started with the creation of Israel. And now instead of Israel turning to peace they are just pushing for a greater conflict.


Israel is pushing Arabs into the ground, with the excuse that Arabs will push them into the sea....

Seems like only Israel is doing the pushing..!!!!!!!


The world can see that all the violence is instigated by Israel... Israel is more powerful and better equipped in every respect compared to the Arabs. Peace is in their hands.

It's only because of our complete unquestioned support that Israel suppresses the Palestinians with impunity.... If America were to declare that Palestinians are also "Human Beings" worthy of not living like animals, we'd probably get a little progress in the ME conflict.


The Iranians are just as bent toward a conflict as Israel..... I can't see a difference between both, because it seems that the extreme-right and zeolots in both are driving their polices.

[occuserpens]

146. UN is not a "good boys club"

The tragedy is, neocons present the UN as some sort of "good boys club" where "dictatorships" do not belong.
But this is not the case! From the very beginning, the UN was supposed to include all countries and to maintain peace.
Violation of this rule can kill the UN - which is exactly what Bolton & Co want.

[pelsar]

157. doesnt work for us...

yea i know we went to the ovens peacefully...we left spain, england etc without much noice...we lived in egypt for centuries without citizenship....

i understand its hard to accept the jew who doesnt "go quietly"...and maybe we are upsetting some people with our new attitude.....

well, get used to it, cause its a lot better than the past 2,000 years.....

[hiabrill]

159. Who's asking Jews to go quietly...

Jews and Arabs should live in Israel together. One Nation with equal rights for both Jews and Arabs. That is the only fair and just solution.

[pelsar]

160. try being realistic...

given the two cultures at their present situation.....and given the fact that a country has to have a single dominate culture to survive....your not going to get your "one country".

what would you do with the israeli national museum?....how about the symbols of the israeli independance war?....the palestenains "maryrters?

which national holidays will be celebrated?.......one country is asking for civil unrest...only the extremely niave could actuallly believe something like that could exist presently

[hiabrill]

162. Have everything of both cultures and people

and teach both people to respect each others culture & religion ....


Presently it's impossible under the circumstances which I find mostly manufactured to create greater tension between both groups. That can change.

It can be a secular state, neither Jewish or Muslim.

When Muslims ruled, Jews were never denied to exist peacefully in the Palestinian areas.

A peaceful coexistence is possible, it's a question of the will of both people to live side-by-side.

[pelsar]

163. when was that?

When Muslims ruled, Jews were never denied to exist peacefully in the Palestinian areas.

exactly what are you talking about?.........which period that didnt end with some kind of "blood lible" against the jews?

[Behind the Aegis]

164. What history books are you reading?!

Most Muslim countries don't even have a substantial Jewish population, some don't even have Jews! In many of those countries, Jews have very limited rights.

Therefore, I am most curious in how you think a one-state solution would work?

[occuserpens]

166. This is not about my statement on 2.5 revolutions!

[Violet_Crumble]

280. And now for a list of those 'many countries'?

'many of those countries, Jews have very limited rights.'

Which countries would that be?

[pelsar]

167. have everything for both cultures?...

ok..sure...and when the Hamas have their annual parade celebrating the blowing up of the park hotel...what should the "jewish residents do"?

when israelis celebrate the unifications of jersualsm in 67...what shall the "palestenains be doing?...or how about the palestenain celebration of kicking out the jews of old jerusalem in 48?....

celebrate everything?....and palestenian "martyrs day"..i'm sure the jewish residents will want to join in....will the jewish president "speak at the celebrations?

and you think it should be a secular country?...why? in previous posts you seem all ready to accept hamas as the govening body of the palestenians. If there is one country it seems that hamas may win in a general election....then what?.....according to your past posts...thats fine, which means the jewish minority is then assigned secondary status, as befitting the hamas doctrine..but thats ok with you correct?

and dont tell me that, such a scenario is not possible...hamas already has the local govening council in Qaqillya...where no public muisic is allowed and they're just getting started......

great plan..except we've been there before......too many times

[hiabrill]

174. yes respect both cultures and learn about the other side

Ignorance is the biggest problem of all.... I can't stand extremist on both sides because they are the ones the build these unfounded fears.

There will never be any parades celebrating the blowing up of hotels...!!!

The only celebration will be the UNITY between Palestinians and Jews. To hell with 67 & 48..!!


Anything the goes against the secular state should be prohibited..!!


Currently the Palestinians are having their own elections and yes I am supportive of that because we'd be dealing with a group that genuinely represents the people. That is besides my wish for a secular state in Israel with both Arabs and Jews side by side with equal rights....


Please don't give me the majority and minority argument, in america of all places the majority voted for gore, yet he still lost the election. In other words it's possible to reach an agreement where the minority Jews are not taken over by the Arabs.


No you have never been there before. ONE STATE with equal rights for both Jews and Muslims has never been on the table.

[pelsar]

177. and you know this...

and what if a one state is made...and your wrong.....

"anything that goes against a secular state should be prohibited".....and what if its not?...given the religion in the area and the emotions involved are you sure were living on the same planet? Chances of such a thing happening are zero at best. Israel can barely get through secular legislation.....and the palestenian society is far more rigid.

whereas israel does have a pluralisic society (with its own set of "burps")....the arab culture is far less tolerant. Unless you have some magic wand that you can wave and make people forget their history, their culture.....and make a "new" culture.

i would try it first in Lebanon, they've had a multicultural environment involving the arabs and christians etc for a far longer period of time (except for that 15 yr civil war which cost them over 100,000 people dead..which is still "just under the surface) they seem to "get along...sort of.

is that what your talking about?


btw first you said "have everything for both cultures, now your saying have nothing (since religion is "not allowed")....i dont think you've really thought it through and have tried to take your "utopia" in to the realm of realism....so which is it" all things for all cultures or nothing for all cultures (and who would agree to either?)

[hiabrill]

183. "utopia" in the realm of realism

You say the chance of it happening is zero, then you mention Lebanon, where they have a functional multicultural society, despite the few "burps".

I guess in the case of Israel and Palestine we're going to have to change the definition of "secular". How about having a Jewish-Islamic system, one where both can coexist together. Why are you so rigid????? It's a question of two legitimate and elected Governments working together on the details. Trust me the majority want peace, not war.


I'm sorry, but I find your hard-line/extreme views totally unacceptable. I point blank disagree with the draconian action taken by Israel, at the very least it's inhumane. Israels actions and philosophy only breeds greater violence. The same could be said of Hamas, but I find that they are reacting to Israel..... But that is only because "both" have to survive in an atmosphere of "never-ending" hate.


Israel has the upper hand and the ability to bring hostilities to an end.


Encouraging "TWO STATES" based on racial divisions and accepting ethnic cleansing and the displacement of people from their ancestral land is unacceptable.

[pelsar]

184. hamas only "reacts"....

i noticed that...israel leaves gaza and hamas "reacts" by sending over 30 missles into israel.....

is that what your talking about?

[hiabrill]

185. A half withdrawal is not enough

Palestinians need to regain full control of their land, sea and air. Palestinians need self determination and not a continued occupation.

Palestinians are still living in a contained areas despite the withdrawal.

You have to look back many years to view the suppression of these people that has lasted for 3 generations. Look all the way back at the injustice and subjugation to see where we stand today.


It's very typical of those who want to continue inciting violence to only look at recent events. It distorts the true picture.



There needs to be a complete comprehensive peace. A half peace is not enough! Period.

[pelsar]

212. its called a first step..

before Gaza "everyone said" israel must make the first move...take the first step....

well Israel did...now what?....it wasnt enough?.....whats a matter? the palestenians cant do something in return...like NOT shoot missles into israel?.....

if they cant "control themselves in Gaza...they sure wont be able to do it in the westbank....

[hiabrill]

269. It's a step backwards.....

as all unilateral steps are......


You ask Palestinians to stop shooting missiles into Israel, can you also get Israel to stop assassinations?

[barb162]

195. when has there ever been a "utopia" anywhere on this planet?

"Utopia" as you describe here is simply unrealistic for groups that have been fighting this long. The two-state deal with the groups tolerating each other at best is about as good as you're gonna yet under the historical circumstances.

[barb162]

173. Israel's pushing? Like in 1967?

Who started the wars against Israel again?

Got a link on the Israeli nukes? Has it used nukes? Has it threatened anyone with nukes?

Will peace reign when outfits like Hamas have it in their charters that the destruction of Israel is their goal.

From the "Charter of the Hamas"
"Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims."
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."

Did you noticed that after Israel gave up Gaza a few weeks ago, about 35 Palestinian (Hamas)rockets landed in Israel? Who is pushing?

[Coastie for Truth]

138. PA's Erekat: Iran's anti-Israel statement is 'unacceptable - Haaretz

Palestinian Authority senior negotiator Saeb Erekat on Thursday condemned the Iranian President Majmoud Ahmadinejad call for Israel's destruction.

"This is unacceptable to us," Erekat said. "We have recognized the state of Israel and we are pursuing a peace process with Israel, and ... we do not accept the statements of the president of Iran. This is unacceptable."

UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan reprimanded Iran's president Thursday for calling for the destruction of Israel.

Annan expressed "dismay" over President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's comments Wednesday calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map."... "Israel is a long-standing member of the United Nations with the same rights and obligations as every other member," Annan said in a statement.

Edited to comply with "Fair Use" -->

[occuserpens]

141. .

[Coastie for Truth]

145. Acknowledged.

[Colorado Blue]

153. I think this is interesting. The P.A. appears to be the ONLY

Arab state/political entity which is standing against this hateful and bigoted propoganda. Maybe there is some hope here. But where are the other 22 states?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

175. It's not enough for the PA to condemn Iran!

I'm waiting for Israel to announce that the PA should be responsible for removing the Iranian leader...

Isn't it interesting, that in all the words that fly about I/P we rarely, rarely, rarely address the source of it all -- THE OCCUPATION!

[pelsar]

178. oh...its the occupation?

so iran wants to remove israel from the face of the earth because of the occupation....what part of the "wipe israel" isnt clear to you?..i dont recall anything mentioned by iran about the ocupation?....

would you clarify that for us?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

182. I was pretty

clear about saying, of all the blather we hear... we rarely hear about the occupation.

The occupation IS the center point.

[pelsar]

227. yes...the total occupation of arab lands by the infidle

and that according to iran, hamas etc that includes tel aviv, hafia etc...or did i not understand properly when irans president said "wipe them off the map"...clearing indicating that his idea of the occupation is everything.

[Colorado Blue]

231. I've addressed it frequently. Unfortunately nobody wants to

acknowledge the cause of the occupation, which was to prevent Israel's being completely overrun, nobody wants to acknowledge the fact that land was supposedly to be returned for peace, that only Egypt and Jordan have signed such agreements, that the Sinai WAS returned to Egypt, Gaza has been returned to the Palestinians even though there IS no peace agreement in place with them, NO official borders exist, and the P.A. refuses to disarm the militias that continue attacking Israel because, according to Mahmoud Abbas, doing so would cause a civil war among the Palestinians.

Therefore, how could ANY nation in its right mind, withdraw and leave chaos, terrorists focused upon its destruction and a possible civil war on its 6 mile wide borders?

In hindsight, leaving the P.A. in the hands of Arafat was sheer madness. The PLO Covenant to this very day calls for the destruction of Israel. The establishment of a Palestinian state, in that matrix, was merely an interim step to the path of complete "liberation" - ie, the removal of Israel from the map. Unfortunately history has borne the bloody truth of this philosophy, in all the years since the Oslo Accords came into effect.

The death toll from terror began to rise dramatically immediately after the Oslo Accords were signed. The Intifadas brought about the very conditions that people are blaming on the occupation. But these conditions are in fact the result of war, not of the occupation per se. In fact prior to the intifadas over 100,000 Palestinians made their living in Israel, the two countries shared a great deal of economic interaction and I don't doubt, social interaction.

It never ceases to amaze me that people can look at the situation in Gaza and the West Bank and not connect the dots to all these decades of terror and war. Until that is acknowledged we're dealing in parallel universes, in which one side accepts the responsibility for their part in helping create a bad situation, and the other side pretends to be innocent victims. BOTH sides are responsible for having created a bad situation and MANY communities will need to work together to fix it.

[barb162]

139. Europe condemns Iran's call to wipe out Israel

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-10-27T173849Z_01_SCH752579_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAN-ISRAEL.xml&archived=False

By David Clarke
LONDON (Reuters) - Europe strongly condemned Iran's president on Thursday for saying Israel should be "wiped off the map" and said the call raised concerns about the aims of a country the West suspects is planning to build an atomic bomb.

Support for the Palestinian cause is a central policy pillar for the Islamic Republic, which does not recognize Israel, and its President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Wednesday the Islamic world "will not let its historic enemy live in its heartland."

European Union leaders and Russia joined the United States and Canada in condemning the comments attributed to Ahmadinejad and Iranian envoys in capitals across Europe, including Russia, were summoned to explain the remarks.

"Calls for violence, and for the destruction of any state, are manifestly inconsistent with any claim to be a mature and responsible member of the international community," EU leaders said in a statement issued at a one-day summit outside London.

snip

[Coastie for Truth]

140. Seems to only be popular with the Left NT

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

149. interesting question

He has spoken about Iran; you might want to google that

[barb162]

148. you noticed

:eyes:

[newyorican]

155. Nobody condemns Israels calls to invade Iran, ho-hum....

"Calls for violence, and for the destruction of any state, are manifestly inconsistent with any claim to be a mature and responsible member of the international community," EU leaders said in a statement issued at a one-day summit outside London.

Israel instructs America to attack Iran and Syria

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon met with US congressmen yesterday to discuss which countries America should invade next.

Apparently still unaware that Iraq disarmed after the 1991 Gulf War under diplomatic pressure from the UN, Sharon stated that "Iran, Libya and Syria should be stripped of weapons of mass destruction after Iraq."

He described the situation in Iraq since the war "successful". In reality, post-war Iraq is in a state of crisis, facing a multitude of disastrous problems that grow worse with each passing each day. The country is in ruins, and the fighting never stops. So far today, ten hostages have been taken, and a series of explosions has killed dozens of children and over a hundred other civillians.

Source:
Haaretz Daily (Il), "Sharon says U.S. should also disarm Iran, Libya and Syria", 30 September 2004.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=263941

Obviously, Jabba defines success as lots of dead Arabs.

US Assures Israel That Syria And Iran Are Next

Israeli Newspaper Exposes US Plans

According to a report publlished by Israelâs leading newspaper Haaretz, Bolton, who is undersecretary for arms control and international security, is in Israel for meetings about preventing the spread of weapons of mass destruction.

In a meeting with Bolton on Monday, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said that Israel is concerned about the security threat posed by Iran. It's important to deal with Iran even while American attention is turned toward Iraq, Sharon said.

Well now, with this information(recent history, BTW), the words and intent of Ahmadinejads seem more like a return-to-sender of the overtures from Jabba.

I love the smell of selective condemnation in the morning...

[barb162]

172. These articles are way beyond misleading. Don't you think you

should get them off of here? The first article you post is from THE INSIDER, NOT HAARETZ(!!) though you make it seem it is straight out of Haaretz. This "Insider," whatever it is, seems to be some sort of purposeful lie/ knockoff from a real Haaretz article entitled "Sharon says U.S. should also disarm Iran, Libya and Syria" and the article was about WMD. It was about nations with WMD, not Israel trying to run the USA. From Haaretz first line:"Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said yesterday that Iran, Libya and Syria should be stripped of weapons of mass destruction after Iraq. The Haaretz article was from February, 2003.
"The article writer from Insider then apparently REtitles it "Israel instructs America to attack Iran and Syria" as if Israel runs the show in the USA.
This second thing also seems to be an innaccurate and misleading knockoff again of the same Haaretz article about WMD.

Why not just post the original Haaretz article which speaks for itself and clearly is about WMD concerns.

[pelsar]

179. Newyorker:......did you miss this..the title of the webpage of your links

THE MASONIC CONSPIRACY (DVD): A SECRET DOCUMENTARY INVESTIGATING FREEMASONRY



Take any good street map of downtown Washington, D.C. and find the Capitol Building. Facing the Capitol from the Mall and using the Capitol building as the head or top of the Compass, the left leg is represented by Pennsylvania Ave. and the right leg, Maryland Ave. The Square is found in the usual Masonic position with the intersection of Canal St. and Louisiana Ave. The left leg of the Compass stands on the White House and the right leg stands on the Jefferson Memorial. The circle drive and short streets behind the building form the head and ears of what Satanists call the Goat Of Mendes or Goat's head!

http://www.dcist.com/archives/2004/09/07/masonic_conspiracies_101.php

pretty funny link....

given that its not your 'run of the mill website".....can we conclude that your "one of them"?

[newyorican]

180. I didn't miss it...

because it's irrelevant to the topic. The source of the quotes from Sharon are from Ha'aretz. But feel free to attempt to divert the topic to something more manageable, such as freemasonry, the Knights of Templar or little men from Area 51 for that matter. It all merely displays your inability to address the topic at hand.

[pelsar]

181. no.....your the one playing around....

they take original articles and "play with them"....as written above...stay with the originals...its more honest

[barb162]

190. Pelsar, I sure didn't miss the Masonic bit!

[newyorican]

198. Yeah...

Posted Sharons comments in #155 and we're up to #190 with no on topic response. In dabating circles we call that stipulating the facts.

[barb162]

239. I call it immaterial

Debate Judge: Wanna know what my paradigm is?
Debater: yes, please tell me.
Debate Judge: Who ever puts me to sleep faster

[occuserpens]

150. More damage to the UN :-(

-- It is true that Iranian attack on Israel contradicts the UN Charter.
-- This is apparent escalation of the UN crisis after the Iraqi invasion, OFF scandal, Bolton's appointment, recent pressure on Syria and Iran. Now Iran retaliates.
-- Israeli call for Iranian expulsuion is another strike on the UN.
-- It is especially gloomy that both Sharon and Perers call for Iranian expulsion! This is a direct result of Gaza withdrawal, it tied Labour to Likud.

Aluf Benn. Israeli ambassador to UN asks world body to expel Iran
UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan expressed "dismay" Thursday over the comments, saying the UN charter is opposed to threats or use of force against the territorial integrity and political independence of any state.
"Israel is a long-standing member of the United Nations with the same rights and obligations as every other member," Annan said in a statement.
He said he plans to visit Iran in "the next few weeks" and would put the Middle East peace process and the right of all states to live in peace and security within secure borders at the top of his agenda.
Earlier Thursday, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Vice Premier Shimon Peres initiated the calls for Iran's expulsion from the United Nations.
Although most Arab leaders maintained silence Thursday over Ahmadinejad's statements, Palestinian Authority negotiator Saeb Erekat on Thursday said the comments were not acceptable.

[occuserpens]

151. Juan Cole puts Iranian jibe into prospective

Juan Cole. Shining Beacon on a Hill
The Neoconservatives promised us that an American-dominated Iraq would become a model for the rest of the Middle East.

Iraq has been turned, by the mismanagement of Bush and the Neoconservatives at the Department of Defense, into a hellhole of suicide bombings and subterranean campaigns of ethnic cleansing.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who stole the Iranian election last June, talked about wiping Israel off the face of the earth." His (stupid and monstrous) speech underlined what kind of trouble Ariel Sharon's policies of annexing all of Jerusalem and gradually cleansing it of Muslims is likely to cause in the Middle East. So we have the same language about ethnic groups being wiped out, as in Iraq.

Yup, suicide bombings, retaliatory air strikes, charges and counter-charges of ethnic cleansing, and genocidal threats.
Iraq has become the model for the Middle East.
Or, was it the other way around?

[pelsar]

192. did i miss something?

the iranian call for wiping israel off the map...meant wiping israel off the map...no talk of "67" borders or even 48 borders or jersualem....

i find it rather bizare blaming sharon for irans talk of wiping israel off the map...quite the contrary...the iranian position simply proves that sharon is right...

[occuserpens]

170. Hizballah and Haririgate

As a professional Khomeinist revolutionary, Ahmadinejad recently sent a strong message on the UN "investigation" of Hariri's iassassination. According to Iranians, it all comes to "beat the Arabs, save Israel". So, pro-Iranian Hizballah gets the idea and supports the Syrians.

Hizb Allah says it will stand by Syria: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E815C56F-D371-4119-B498-9958CBDE9A88.htm

[barb162]

171. U.N. condemns Iran over Israel

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-10-28T224029Z_01_HOL724007_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRAN-ISRAEL.xml&archived=False

By Evelyn Leopold

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The U.N. Security Council on Friday condemned a call by Iran's president to "wipe Israel off the map" and said all U.N. members should refrain from threatening or using force against another country.

But the condemnation, endorsed by all 15 council members, was delivered in the form of a press statement -- rather than at a formal council meeting, which would give it more weight. Algeria, the only Arab council member, objected to the open meeting.

"The members of the Security Council condemn the remarks about Israel attributed to H.E. Mr Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, president of the Islamic republic of Iran," said Mihnea Motoc, Romania's ambassador and current council president.

"The members of the Security Council support the secretary-general's statement of October 17 noting that under the United Nations Charter, all members have undertaken to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state," Motoc said.

snip

[ProgressiveMuslim]

176. but is silent about the Occupation...

that's rich!

[barb162]

191. and about rockets flying into Israel

[pelsar]

193. the occupation is irrelvant....

in this case...iran stated clearly israel is to be wiped out....if anything such an atttitude proves that israels right wing is correct...peace is never to be made since all "they want to do" is to wipe israel off the map....

wipe israel means tel aviv, hadera, etc everything...all ..... completly.....

it doesnt mean 67 borders, 48 borders it mean EVERYTHING!

[hiabrill]

194. The occupation is the main issue

Israel is in the process of wiping out the Palestinians.

Hence the comments by the Iranian leader...... they should be look in the context of what Israel is doing NOW.


Can peace be made with Israel as they continue to cage the Palestinians into cells and deny them the opportunity to live as normal human beings....

[barb162]

197. I know someone here will correct me if I am wrong

but the latest stats show more Palestinians have been killed by Palestinians than by Israelis.

Israel doesn't want to "wipe out" Palestinians.

As to the caging comments, what do you call Gaza? Why were the Palestinians celebrating when the Israeli settlers left? Were they celebrating their new cage, cell, etc ? The border issues are being worked out with Egypt and should be straightened out in a month or two.

[hiabrill]

199. Should I turn a blind eye to the West Bank....

.... because of the "unilateral" disengagement in Gaza...?

Peace should be complete...

A metaphor of Israels one sided peace, is like giving someone a glass of water, with only a tiny drop of piss inside.... Would you drink it with that knowledge? (I think not) .... In fact Israel actually leaves a lot of piss in the glass to the point it discolors the water and then shoves it down the Palestinians throat.



It's good that Egypt is getting involved, it's about time that we had a greater involvement of Third-Parties in the conflict in Israel. If the US did not use it's VETO at the UN hundreds of time, we could have had UN observers followed by UN peace keepers.


I personally believe Israel is doing worse than just "wiping-out" the Palestinians, they are being forced to live in extremely humiliating circumstances to the point living has no meaning.......


Put your self in the Palestinians position, how would you feel under similar circumstances....?


Peace in Israel needs to be bilateral, without pressure from the US and a more even handed approach, the violence will continue into the next Century....... Haven't we all had enough?

[barb162]

200. So what about Gaza

Why were they celebrating? It was a first step, right? Are they not building new homes, mosques, etc?

[hiabrill]

202. No it wasn't a first step....

... it was a tactical step.


Immediately after Israel annexed further land in Jerusalem to link it to a settlement close-by. The Wall is continuing unabated and encroaching further into Arab land.


I wish they were celebrating "PEACE" but they clearly aren't... So Gaza is not a step toward peace, it's just a disengagement from stolen lands..... a lot more is needed before true peace.


The disengagement from Gaza was intended to justify more theft of Arab land......

[barb162]

209. What does a lot more mean?

Gaza was Egypt's before the war, do you agree? Due to various agreements since then, the land has been given to the Palestinian people. If it was just a tactical step, why the big celebration?

[hiabrill]

217. What would you expect after a Brutal and Inhumane occupation..

What would you expect, other than a celebration when Palestinians are prohibited from reaching the sea for going on to 40 years...!?


The Palestinians endured draconian measures for a whole generation, mainly because of the presence of few Settlers.....


The Celebrations have absolutely nothing to do with peace.

[Colorado Blue]

232. It might add to your perceptions of the Palestinian situation

if you would study the situation of the Palestinians living in camps in Arab countries, subject to immigration restrictions, employment restrictions, restrictions against owning property, and in general not wanted.

"Keeping people in cages" - lord. People have been complaining about those camps since the 1950's. They should have been disssolved, people compensated, fresh starts made, DECADES AGO. This is not Israel's fault. Waiting for Israel to die - that's just about the only idea folks have for helping the Palestinians. It makes me mad. I'm angry on behalf of the Israelis and angry on behalf of the people in those camps.

[barb162]

196. Yes, it couldn't have been clearer.

But one good thing is they started clarifying(?) yesterday:

"Iran says no intention of striking Israel

TEHRAN: Iran on Saturday slammed the UN Security Council condemnation of its president’s anti-Israeli remarks, but insisted there was no intention to attack the Jewish state.

http://www.geo.tv/main_files/world.aspx?id=92856

[hiabrill]

201. The "rhetoric" was clear from the start...

To think the Iranian leader literally meant destroying Israel is absurd. Nevertheless, the Iranian President has shown the extreme side of Iran, which I thought was disappearing with Khatami .....


I used to think the US missed an opportunity to engage Khatami in discussions. I now wonder if anything would have come out of it.


It's like the Arabs dealing with Rabin (Labour) to reach a peace agreement/settlement and then in comes Likud to blow everything discussed to dust.

To me both Israel and Iran are 99% right-wing and extreme. There are no genuine Liberal thinking parties in either country. Just different "shades" of Fascist Right-wing Baloney.. (no offense to those who believe otherwise)

[barb162]

203. I think he meant it; he didn't have to say it if he didn't mean it

Now will he act on it, that is, a war? I really doubt it, though Iran does finance strikes against Israel

[hiabrill]

205. It's only a figure of speech.....

.....very typical of many in the ME...

Doesn't mean he will act on it, but it serves extremist and those hoping to instill a continued false fear that Iran will act against Israel.


For the most part many in Israel hold on to the "Arabs want to push Jews into the sea" theory ... hence the Iranian Presidents comment, were just perfect and a not-to-miss opportunity.


His comments need to be look in the context of what Israel is doing to the Palestinians today....

[barb162]

207. It's important not to minimize this type of speech by leaders

of countries. The UN Security Council was right on this one.

[pelsar]

211. a figure of speach?.....

do you mean the same "figure of speach" used by the arab leaders in 48 and 67...those "figure of speaches?

and how do YOU KNOW...that he didnt mean it?...

[hiabrill]

216. Forget 48 and 67....

....it's history and unrelated to today....

How can we ever move forward if you only look to the past??!

Seems like a deliberate tactic to stall any meaningful negotiations and instead do nothing to change the status quo, because of old unjustified fears.


Forget the past, let's move forward....

[pelsar]

219. forget the past?.....

really...does that also apply to the palestenians?...forget 48...67.......its way in the past...so is jerusalem...in fact so is much of the west bank.

...lets just start with the situation from now...2005....you do agree correct?


or is it kind of a "selective "forget the past"..the israelis should forget the past..the palestenains shouldnt?...did i get it right?

[pelsar]

229. have to remember this post...

you dont mind if i copy your above post and repeat it later to you when you mention something about palestenain land in 48 or 67?

[hiabrill]

245. The issue was "figure of speech" used by the arab leaders in 48 and 67

The mind set then is very different to NOW....


And that one of the biggest problems faced in this conflict. Neither Israelis or Palestinians want to look at the whole issue from a different less hostile perspective...


The "figure of speech" then is very different to now.

Surely even you can see that.


Why are you so bent on spinning the truth....??

[Colorado Blue]

230. How on EARTH can you say 1948 and 1967 aren't related

to what's going on today?

Oh, brother.

[hiabrill]

246. I'm saying the "figure of speech" then is different to now....

Holding on to things said then in negotiations today can only be a tactic not to move forward.....

[pelsar]

257. tactic?...

hmm i do believe when they said in 48 the goal was to wipe out israel...they meant it...

in 67 when nasser closed of the eilat, kicked out the UN worked with jordan and said the goal was to wipe out israel....seeems he meant it..

now comes along iran...and they like others in the past (we can include hitler too, since no one believed him either)...have said their goal is to wipe out israel...and when asked for clarification....they repeated it

now then..i dont see any additional information here...so when i look at the short past of I see, that those who said...then tried to actually do it.

or do you somehow have some supernatural powers which claim that they "really dont mean it" and they're just kidding around?

but i prefer you original answer...history is in the past, 48, 67...no longer releveant. I'll pass it on to the Hamas...i'm sure they'll die from laughter

[hiabrill]

259. You're blind not to see what the Palestinian leadership

is saying.... Hamas doesn't see a genuine peace for very realistic reasons.

What was said then is irrelevant, there have been many negotiations between both the Israelis and Palestinians, the Palestinians have recognized Israel... have you been asleep since 67..?

Move forward, not backward.

Wake up and stop holding on to ideas that keep the confrontation and war going on strongly for unfounded and "imaginary" reasons.



You prefer "word" or anything for that matter, to continue your hard-line extremist position, that you believe justifies a continued violent occupation.... WHY??


Absolutely nothing you say or suggest will ever lead to peace.....! What is so bad about peace between Israel and Arabs?

Please answer me.....

[pelsar]

263. your confusing wishful thing vs reality.....

you claim of "imaginary reasons"....is simply that: imaginary.

wouldnt it be nice if the palestenains saw israelis and jews as real people within their culture. If they looked upon the israelis and jews as equals?.....Wouldnt it be nice if that were true of the Egyptians as well?...it sure would be reassuring if that were true...unfortunatly my kind are still not accepted in Egypt, still not seen as "Humans" within the palestenian society....

and yet within israeli society, they are countless plays the depict the various relationships between israelis and palestenians, museum exhibits that tell of the palestenain hardships today and the problems of both societies....palestenains constantly interviewed on radio, tv, and in the newspapers....yet the opposite is not true:

no israeli professor has given lectures in Egypt/Jordan etc. Arab professional socieies forbid contact with their israeli counterparts. Egypt produces and shows the "protocols of zion" on TV, Iran has a TV series about israelis stealing organs from palestenians.....but the best of all is the palestenain media:

http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm#b271005

I want peace with the palestenains far more than you do...the difference is, is that i hear and see the things which dont make me comfortable and wonder why?....I dont see how the PA controlled media can accuse jews/israelis of blood libles and then turn around and say "all they want is peace"..you may choose to believe what you want to hear..i believe in listening to everything.....and when doing so with an open mind.....what becomes clear is that the governing bodies of much of the PA, and surrounding arab states have still not accepted jews/israelis as their neighbors and equals.

its in their newspapers, radios, movies, TV programs, college lectures.....i understand that, those things dont bother you, nor do they mean anything to you....but then thats because you think 48, 67 are no longer relevant....well when the president of iran calls for wiping out israel, it somehow reminds me of similar calls and the subsequent attempts to do so.....

[Name removed]

270. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

272. OMG....i almost ruined my screen with the coffee.....

.... i really dont care whats your "official version" of the muslim relationship to jews...i'm more interested in the reality of today:

stuff like jews not having citizenship rights in egypt, jews not being able to set foot in saudi arabia...jews being called monkeys by immans in Gaza and stories of candies with aids being left behind by their govt contolled press.....TV programs that show jews and israelis as organ stealers....controllers of the world

you say a greater interaction is a must..me too...so perhaps the journalist union in Egypt and jordan might invite their israeli counterparts to a discussion (oops they cant...they forbid it)

perhaps the cairo film festival will invite israelis....make a real films about the conflict instead of mere one sided simplistic films.....no go there as well

shall i go on?....i've got a very very long list of how the surrounding arab states avoid contact with israelis..

btw...why dont the palestenains simply interview israelis on their TV or radio?

you talk of increased interaction...whereas there are many contacts and groups initiated by the israelis.....where are those from the palestenain and arab side?...

perhaps you can try to answer the questions?....and explain my previous post with examples from iran an the PA media.....

[pelsar]

273. the iranian response...

The call by the Iranian leader should be looked at relative to brutal occupation the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of Israel....

i'm sure your one of those that claim israeli is "not singled out"....ok lets be consistant:

Since N. Korea is busy starving its own..i guess you would have no problem if the Bush said, its time we wiped out N. Korea? (or is starving to death acceptable in your world?)
...or Japan can delcare it....

How about Morrocco...what they're doing in West Sahara is nothing less than occcupation:..so Bush can declare its time to wipe out Morocco as well.

Occupation?...Russian in Chechniya..now thats probably the most cruel....carpet bombin villages (hardly compares to a single helicopter shooting a few missles at a car)...time to wipe out russia.

We got the UK in N. Ireland...shall Ireland declare its time to wipe out the UK?

Chinas occupying tibet....well who shall threaten them with wiping them out?....guess that would be the job of Bush:..its time to wipe china off the map! (and you'll support that mesage.....)

Turkey is busy occupying Cyprus...shall France declare its time to wipe out turkey?


your probably shaking your head and saying..of course not!...so why not?....if occupation is enough for a 3rd country to declare that its intention to wipe out another country....lets be consistent (or do you believe the palestenains deserve freedom more than the tibetens? or those in chechnyia?)

[Colorado Blue]

258. That works both ways. The Palestinians too need to think

beyond trying to make things the way they were in 1948, when they were under the control of Britain, or even in 1967, when they were under the control of Jordan and Egypt. To make progress, people need to look at the situation with fresh eyes, and proceed with what is currently "on the ground". I agree with you there.

Since the Intifada, it's even too late to return to things the way they were when Clinton was in office and statehood appeared to be a reality. Daily conditions for people - Palestinians and Israelis alike - the economies of both groups, and relationships between people, have been severely damaged by the last five years of violence.

Israel isn't magically going to disappear and making it disappear would require another holocaust. Similarly, the Palestinians are still sitting in those camps, or living almost as hostages on the West Bank, and they're not really free in Gaza either, though they have much more self-determination and opportunity and freedom of movement than before. But the attacks on Israel result in counterattacks on Gaza, and that damages ordinary people as well as extremists and their rocket factories. Meanwhile, who will invest in Gaza with this going on? A company might want to build a computer plant there, or more greenhouse projects, but be afraid they will be blown up or damaged.

And, the possibility of civil war is very real and violence between Palestinians is ongoing - it isn't just with Israel. There is fear that al Qaeda has now infiltrated via the Egypt/Gaza border. This can't be good news for the peace process.

I'm worried, too, that because this situation now involves so many people - more than 4 million - and because other states besides Israel and the PA are involved - it's going to be very difficult to get real progress. Lebanon isn't real stable itself, is home to many armed militias INCLUDING Palestinians as well as Hizbollah; and Syria, where many Palestinians live in camps, is a closed society so who really knows what's going on in there? Iraq is a mess, Jordan doesn't want any more immigration from Palestinians, at least not en masse, Egypt is poor and very populous and has internal political and religious stress as well.

The best shot, I think, is in these industrial and economic zones the US is setting up, involving cooperation between several states including Israel. And Jordan, the PA and Israel are working on water projects together. Hopefully, Syria and Lebanon and Iraq can eventually join in such projects - maybe even Turkey. People in these countries are very poor. Improved economic conditions would work wonders for the people who live there, and provide fresh opportunities for all.

By working together, solving economic and industrial and environmental problems together, people will create a more stable matrix, in which progress can be made and the old hatreds, eventually start to dissolve.

This is assuming something really horrible, like an attack with WMD's, as threatened by Iran, doesn't occur.

The Palestinians' major problem, right now, isn't just Israel - it's the militias, and the threat of civil war. That in turn affects the way the Israelis behave - they're reacting. Rocket attacks, shootings, suicide bombs - immediately impact the general public, in Israel as well as in Palestinian areas; they result in counterattacks, and people's lives become even more miserable and statehood becomes ever more a wistful dream.

About the militias, I don't think anybody can do a darn thing EXCEPT the Palestinian people. The Israelis can hunt them down in small groups, making life harder for ordinary Palestinians in the process, but they can't eradicate the will to destroy that empowers the extremists. It's a vicious circle. And as long as they're out there, threatening to destroy Israel and attacking with rockets, shooting innocent hitchhikers and blowing up people in the marketplace, the Israelis won't feel secure.

Ultimately, only the will to create, coming from within the Palestinian community, can defeat the extremists who live among them.

***

As far as not negotiating - Israelis are of two minds about continuing to talk with Abbas. Some want to go ahead and talk with Abbas, others, though, think it's pointless because it's clear he isn't in control. Any deal made by Abbas is likely to be scuttled by a terrorist bomb. What to do? You tell me!

[hiabrill]

260. Let's start with the Israeli extremists.....

.... who's going to deal with them?

We've seen what sort of people the settlers are during the disengagement. In fact nearly all the Sparks of violence (90%) during the early days of the intifada especially were started by the settlers.


I find them the biggest obstacle to peace between I/P.

Both Israel and the Palestinian Authority need to deal with extremists simultaneously. An extremist Israeli Government can only be controlled by the US, and as we've seen time and time again, the US will never be heavy handing with Israel.
The US must force Israel to deal with Abbas. period. It is the only course of action available. Sharon has no choice!


I strongly believe the PA need an "External Force" to control their militias, it's time to get an Arab coalition force in Gaza to control the peace.

The PA cannot control the militias and Israel is also incapable; i.e. they have enough blood on their hand.


On Al-Qaida in Gaza, I'm sorry but I don't believe Al-Qaida exists in Iraq, let alone in Palestinian areas!! (Zarqawi for example is a phantom, never to be seen, creation of the US to justify their presence in Iraq. There has been absolutely no sightings of Zarqawi)



Working to improve economic conditions is almost certainly key. Water is becoming an even more serious issue as time goes on.

You've mentioned the underlying issue that will dominate all conflicts int he region in decades to come..... I'm extremely glad all the regional Arab nations including Israel are working on issues related to water, without overly politicizing the issue.

How ever I should add that I'd like to see Israel distribute water more fairly with the Palestinians. The disproportionate distribution of water as a percentage of population is unacceptable....


Lastly Hizbullah and Syria will not be a problem to Israel if the Sheba Farms and Golan Heights are given back to Lebanon and Syria respectively.

[Colorado Blue]

261. Your post deserves a thoughtful response, which I don't have

time for at the moment, but I'd like to say for the moment that UN regards the Sheba farms region as Syrian, not Lebanese.

[hiabrill]

262. It wasn't easy engaging my brain either

to respond to you .... (We're getting into the never ending discussion without a solution. We can talk for ever and both Israel and the Palestinians will take a different path..... I don't have a clue what I'm doing in the I/P forum! I should keep away as I get too infuriated)

Isn't the Sheba farm divided into an area for Lebanon and another for Syria.... ?

[Colorado Blue]

265. I don't think so. Hizbollah likes to dispute the line but I think

the UN is pretty clear about it. I should probably double check though.

Later!

[Colorado Blue]

266. OK, a few more ideas, responding to your post in the

Holocaust thread.

Israel has been trying to get the 20 countries of the Arab League, who don't recognize her, to sit down and talk for DECADES. This doesn't include the only two who have, Jordan and Egypt.

Abbas CAN'T negotiate, don't you see? He has no real power, or at any rate not nearly enough. He doesn't apparently speak for the people, as the militias won't disarm and Abbas refuses to force them, saying it would precipitate a civil war. So anything the Israelis and ABBAS, or his party, agree to, is meaningless as long as militias don't agree. And the militias WON'T agree. This is the problem with this whole scenario. That's like saying, OK France and the US will negotiate a trade agreement, except it won't be binding because California, Illinois and Florida all have armies and they are refusniks and will sink any French ship that comes into a US port.

You're wrong about the US' role in the Middle East. On the one hand you're saying they're one-sided on behalf of Israel, but that isn't true. For one thing the US spends billions over there on everybody, not just Israel. But worse, the US is selling top of the line military equipment to all the Arab states as well as Israel. During the Iran/Iraq war, the US used Israel to arm Iran while openly arming Iraq. The Bush family is NOT Israel-friendly. When the Israelis, afraid of Saddam's nuclear reactor, took it out, Bush angrily gave Saddam chemical weapons - which Saddam proceeded to use.
This is in Craig Unger's book, "House of Bush, House of Saud."

The so-called "roadmap to peace" is actually not logical and it isn't really favorable to Israel. We're forcing a paradigm - that of the nation-state - onto a region that is organized along ethnic, tribal and religious lines. By "we" I mean the West, since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire resulted in arbitrarily created nation-states and the Palestine Mandate.

You say it's easy to begin negotiations but that isn't true at all. There are factors operating in the Middle East that are totally irrational, as you should be able to see in Iraq; in addition to the fact the above-mentioned states don't reflect natural ethnographic or religious boundaries, so to speak, and thus are prone to severe internal conflict. The religious problems are extreme - you should see this from Iraq, from the Iran/Iraq conflict, from the Lebanese civil war, from the war between Arabs and Israelis. And it's becoming MORE extreme, not less.

Aggravating this is the oil industry. Israel is stuck in the middle of all this. The Israelis never wanted war. They were pleading for peace literally from day 1 of their existence.

You say, well the Palestinians should have air space etc. That would be fine IF 100% of the Palestinians were down with the idea of living side by side with Israel. Recent BBC polls, and voting results, show that AT LEAST 35% of Palestinians want to blow Israel of the MAP. They support the PLO/Hamas philosophy, that ALL of Israel is "occupied territory". This isn't a game! You should see just from the casualty reports of this past two weeks, that the Hamasniks are determined to continue inflicting violence. With airplanes, what could they do? Israel is SIX MILES WIDE, six minutes from Saudi airbases.

The most MODERATE Arab position requires Israel, without formal agreements of any kind and completely ignoring the facts "on the ground", to return to the "Green Line." Immediately, no negotiations. Is this fair, right or logical? The Green Line was never a formally recognized border, it leaves huge numbers of Israelis and Israel's holiest sites outside the line, and it's indefensible. But that right now is the very BEST the Arabs will offer.

Finally, if the surrounding Arab states are eager to make peace, as you say, they would negotiate peace. They would formally recognize Israel. In fact, those with money, like Saudi Arabia and of course Iran, which isn't Arab but which is Muslim, are funding terror. Does this suggest peaceful intentions to you?

There's one final thing you're overlooking here, and that's the fact that after 60 years of terror and war, the nation who has finally emerged from the chaos in one piece SHOULD have some say in the matter. Also - the entire burden of forging a decent situation for the Palestinians shouldn't rest solely on Israel. It took the combined efforts of the entire Middle East to screw things up and they bear responsibility and must contribute to the effort as well.

Instead, they've basically isolated the Israelis, won't talk to them, and threaten mayhem if their demands aren't met.

ONE more thought: what do you think should be "even-handed" in the Middle East? Israel is 6 million people, the size of New Jersey, in a region of hundreds of millions of Arabs, in an area far larger than the continental US, and has zero resources besides her people.

[pelsar]

264. what?..now the sheba farms?

"Lastly Hizbullah and Syria will not be a problem to Israel if the Sheba Farms and Golan Heights are given back to Lebanon and Syria respectively."

so now the UNs and Lebanons view of the Shaba farms are not acceptable?....just Hizbullah claims?

The sheba farms were taken from syria in 67....the UN has declared the northern border finalized.....lebanon has no further claims

so this means you prefer a terrorists organizations view of the borders instead of the UN and the nations involved?

[eyl]

267. Since you mentioned the disengagement

you might want to remember how Israel dealt with the extremists - it had no problem standing up to and jailing them (in fact, I'd say the government crossed the line into stifling dissent in some cases). I'd also like to see some substantiaton on that 90% figure of yours.

Note also that the two terrorist incidents perpetrated by Jews in that period were condemned across the entire Israeli political spectrum, including most of the settlers.
In short, Israel has shown it's willing to deal with its extremists - I haven't seen many signs of any reciprocal will on the other side.

As for the Shabaa Farms, the UN position is that it's wholly Syrian (Syria claims they transferred the territory to Lebanon after it was taken by Israel in 1967 - the UN rejects that position).

[barb162]

204. Tehran's 'rewards' for rocket attacks

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17084559%255E2703,00.html

Tehran's 'rewards' for rocket attacks

October 31, 2005
TEL AVIV: Iran has promised a reward of $US10,000 ($13,300) to Islamic Jihad if the militant group launches rockets from the West Bank towards Tel Aviv, a senior Palestinian intelligence official says.

Speaking in his Ramallah office, the official produced a fat wad of $US100 notes which he said had been confiscated from a pro-Iranian Islamic Jihad activist. The money was said to have gone from Iran to Damascus, the Syrian capital, from where Ibrahim Shehadeh, Islamic Jihad's head of overseas operations, transferred it to the West Bank.

According to the intelligence official, the Palestinian Authority has located workshops where rockets are being made and has given their co-ordinates to the Israelis. "We understand they destroyed some of them," he said.

The Israeli media claimed last week that rocket attacks from the West Bank were widely expected: Ben Gurion airport's eastern runway is just 8km away and the outskirts of Tel Aviv are within 16km.

snip

[TomClash]

206. Venezuela opposes destruction of Israel

Also on Friday, Venezuelan Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel expressed disagreement with a recent statement by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that Israel should be "wiped off the map."

"I'm against any action toward erasing from the map any nation of the world," Rangel said.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBJV72WFFE.html

[newyorican]

208. David Ben Gurion must also be anti-Israel...

Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that? - David Ben Gurion

[barb162]

210. Was that from about 70 or 80 years ago?

[newyorican]

213. The comments are dated...

by his mention of the Nazis and the camps. I believe it from the early 50s, but I'm not sure.

[Violet_Crumble]

244. Most definately post-WWII, not 70 or 80 years ago...

I'm half-expecting someone to pop up and shriek away that it must be a fake quote :)

Violet...

[eyl]

252. Fake? Who knows?

The problem is the quote is unverifiable. That is, it appears in the book (The Jewish Paradox) as quoted (I checked), but it's a quote from a private conversation between Ben Gurion and the author. I don't recall exactly when the conversation occured prior to publication, but it was at least five years, since the book was published in 1978 and Ben Gurion died in 1973 - so we don't know - and can't check - if Ben Gurion said something of the kind, or if he said something close which was misremembered, or if there was a greater context to the conversation. And since Ben Gurion was dead by the time the book came out, he couldn't very well comment on the quote's accuracy or lack of it, if indeed there was such lack.

In short - use with caution.