Disarming Palestinians may mean civil war: Mubarak

[barb162]

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-10-27T102709Z_01_MOR737603_RTRUKOC_0_US-ISRAEL-EGYPT.xml

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said on Thursday that Israel's demand for the disarmament of Palestinian militants before a resumption of peace talks could lead to civil war.

In an interview with Israel's mass-market Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper, Mubarak urged the Jewish state to take steps to boost beleaguered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who faces growing lawlessness in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

"Particularly now, you need Abu Mazen," Mubarak said, using Abbas's nickname. "You must help him and strengthen his position toward his people."

"You must not condition any progress in the political process on confiscating weapons. If you try to force them, they will have a civil war," Mubarak said.
snip

[IndianaGreen]

1. There is going to be a civil war anyway, so let's get it out of the way

Had the Occupation ended shortly after it began, it would have been possible to have a secular Palestinian state. Nowadays, the radicals have the upper hand and they won't want Arafat's corrupt hangers on to keep power for long.

It is truly a sad state of affairs, which will be similar to what happened in Africa at the end of colonialism.

Now, if it were up to me, I wouldn't tolerate any group to challenge the central authority with armed gangs of thugs. I would disarm all the groups!

[barb162]

4. I think you may be right

about there being a civil war unless Abbas etal defuse the situation with the various militant groups

[hiabrill]

5. It's impossible to disarm Palestinians....

....when Israel insists on continuing with assassinations.
....when Israel can choose to reoccupy Palestinian land (in Gaza).

If there was a force between both people then yes, all forces outside the Palestinian authority must disarm.

"Particularly now, you need Abu Mazen," Mubarak said, using Abbas's nickname. "You must help him and strengthen his position toward his people."



It's well known that Abbas is very moderate, yet the same excuses Sharon previously leveled at Arafat are again been repeated against Abbas.

Mubarak is right. Why isn't Sharon working with Abbas to strengthen his position and weaken the radical groups?


Does Israel truly want peace?


Peace is not a one sided affair..... cessation of violence by one party will not bring an end to the violence.

[IndianaGreen]

6. If Israel did nothing, it wouldn't stop the violence

There are people that won't stop until all of the occupied territories are free. The problem is that what they consider occupied includes the entire State of Israel, and what they consider freedom is a fundamentalist Islamic state in which Palestinian women are forced to live under Sharia law.

Israel has made a lot of mistakes and done some really bad things to the Palestinians, but the Palestinians are not the faultless freedom fighters that some people imagine them to be. There are people on both sides of this conflict that genuinely want peace and abhor the violence that surrounds them. They need our support!

[hiabrill]

7. Palestinian freedom fighters are the creation of Israel

.... and you're absolutely right, we should only support those who abhor violence and genuinely want peace....


We need to start in the US first. Our support for Israel must be conditional.



If Palestinians want a fundamentalist Islamic state that is their business, not ours. Let them have it....

[barb162]

9. some women aren't into chadors

freedom for whom?

[Colorado Blue]

12. Thank you. People don't seem to realize that Palestinian

women used to wear shorts, even, and now are all in hijab and in sometimes even the chador.

In the University at Gaza, if my information is up to date, total segregation of the sexes is enforced along with total burkas, etc. Honor killings occur, treatment of gays is less than optimal. Reconciliation with Israelis seems difficult to imagine under these circumstances, if only because of a broad cultural dissonance.

Unfortunately, radicalization of social norms seems to be increasing elsewhere as well. This isn't just and I/P problem. I've read studies of modern Iran, and the effects of going back into the veil - it was quite devastating to women who'd had a taste of freedom. I'm concerned about similar occurrences in Iraq. There have been reports of forced veilings. We've read about the Taliban in Afghanistan. The toll on women is enormous.

[Englander]

20. Two points -

--In the University at Gaza, if my information is up to date, total segregation of the sexes is enforced along with total burkas, etc.--

Which University? There's more than one.* Any evidence for this claim?
I've not heard of this, it sounds like the kind of thing they make up
at FrontPageMag, or somewhere. The only mention of segregation I could
find was this;

'Birzeit University Right To Education Campaign
Activism News

Outcry at Expulsion of Gaza Students from the West Bank
Press Release, Right to Education Campaign, 9 March 2005

Israel forcibly removed four Palestinian students from their studies at Birzeit University in the West Bank and illegally deported them to the Gaza Strip last November. The four Gazan students were not accused of any offence and their forced expulsion is being seen as part of Israel's plan to impose a final separation between the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The Gaza Students Appeal, launched by the Right to Education Campaign at Birzeit University, has growing international support from parliamentarians, human rights organizations, trade unions, and over 1000 letters and signatures from academics, students and other concerned individuals around the world.

The Palestinian Ministry of Education and Higher Education has called on the international community "to end the segregation policy against Gaza students which denies them the right to education and access to eight Palestinian universities in the West Bank".

British MPs are signing an Early Day Motion in the UK Parliament, expressing their concern that the "illegal separation of the West Bank from the Gaza Strip exacerbates the existing barriers to Palestinian education and development". The motion calls on the UK Government "to insist that the Government of Israel adheres to its legal obligations to allow unimpeded access for all Palestinians to their educational institutions".

On 4 March 2005, over 150 Israeli academics and students published an open letter in the Israeli national newspaper, Ha’aretz, demanding the unconditional return of the four deported students to Birzeit University, and an end to the continuing restrictions on movement and "bantustanization" of Palestinian areas by the Israeli occupation, which prevent students from reaching their educational institutions.

In 2000, there were some 350 Gazan students at Birzeit University, today there are only 35. As a result of frequent closures of cities, hundreds of military roadblocks and the construction of the illegal wall inside the West Bank, the number of new Birzeit students coming from Jenin in the northern West Bank also declined by 100% in 2004.

A prominent supporter of the campaign, Prof. Eric Hobsbawm, President of Birkbeck College, University of London, personally wrote to the Israeli military authorities:

"I would like to protest against measures of this kind, both as a Jew and as a member of the international academic community. It is important that the major university in the West Bank should be allowed to go about its business of educating students and that no arbitrary obstacles should be placed in the already difficult way of young Palestinians pursuing an education".

http://right2edu.birzeit.edu/news/printer271

__________________________________

*

Palestinian Academic Network

Higher Education:

http://www.planet.edu/highedu.htm

[barb162]

10. Let's hope the PA stays secular

[hiabrill]

11. Let's hope the Palestinians have a free and fair election...

secular, religious whatever is not my concern.


If we want to be respected for who we are, we need to respect others for their choices.


Our support for dictatorships is the main reason fundamentalists and zealots turn against us.

[pelsar]

15. respect facists?

interesting concept....a good liberal is one who respects facist religious extremists who have no problem with hanging gays and loud mouth adolescent girls.....

how does that work again?...i always thought liberals were pro civil rights...something about universal rights etc........guess thats the "old version.

[hiabrill]

16. similar to Liberals living side-by-side with Repugs

We have fascist religious extremist in the US as well.

Why shouldn't the same happen elsewhere? It's not a question of accepting extremist, but one of tolerating them enough to live next to them.


The other option is total ethnic cleansing and annihilation of a people based upon race/color, which is more Fascist and extreme IMO.

[pelsar]

19. differentiate...

between toleratating extremists within ones soceity...which democracy demands...vs tolerating and "respecting" an facists theocracy.

i dont get it....you're saying govts like the taliban should be respected? like Iran? accepted within the "fold" and treated as if they on the same level as democratic nations?

[hiabrill]

22. I'm saying if a people "regardless of color & race" democratically

elect a government like the Taliban we must respect their choice..... just like we respect the choice of repugs.


When you dis-communicate and refuse to talk to others or have any discussions that gap widens and hostilities increases mainly due to ignorance. Take North Korea for example, the Bush Admin was wrong to refuse to enter into negotiations with them.


Iran is a democratic nation (whether you like it or not) and should be treated on the same as level as other democratic nations....Twisted as they are.


You're confusing your self, those same extremist within our society need to be tolerated for their fascist theocracy. I can't bring my self to respect any fascist theocracy, but I have to respect the democratic process that allows them to exist within our society....

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[pelsar]

18. i'm advocating...

that at the very minimum one doesnt agree to accept a facist govt as part of the brotherhood of nations.

I never said some were subhuman...thats the domain of the hamas and taliban....and that is why such groups should never rule...something you seem willing to accept.

you say..well if they take control/get voted in...thats fine....well minor detail is that history shows that once they are in, they remove the democratic process and cannot be removed by voting if the population gets tired of being stoned for "moral indesgressions"

and your going to ignore that little minor detail?...your telling me that the taliban are "ok with you?...the hamas is platform is something you have no problem with?

the irans version of govt is something to respect?

WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE!!!!what about their rights? to be gay? to wear what they want to wear, date the girl next door.....by accepting facist govt your totally ignoring the rights of the people to be free...why are you so against them?..and by accepting a facist govt that is precisly what you are saying .

Prime example is iran...once kohmenni got into power, they promply hung, the communists, capitalist, socialists etc...Hamas in Gaza is doing a neat job as well....and to those people you say?

[hiabrill]

23. Let's start with your last point

Khomeini came in after the Shah, a very liberal Government supported by the West...... Iran is indeed a prime example, but you'd never follow through with your analogy. You exaggerate the bad and overlook the good.

Khatami on the other hand was more liberal and he took on the more extreme elements in Iran, Mullahs etc.... as you'd expect in a genuine democracy. And yes you should respect their version of Government, because it's the choice of the Iranian people. Who are you to tell the Iranians how they should govern themselves? It's a shame Khatami never got greater support from the West and the US in particular. A missed opportunity considering we now have a hard-line President.

And you are wrong that once extremist get voted in their change the democratic process...... I will agree that they attempt to make changes, just like Bush has done, by bypassing the
Senate to build a case for war in Iraq. But democratic processes root those problems out, as we're seeing with Fitz.

THE PEOPLE will prevail if democratic systems are allowed to develop. As we've seen in Iran, which moved from he hard-line Khomeini to Liberal Khatami ie liberal by Iranian standards. Iran, Lebanon and Palestine are the only Muslim Countries in the Middle East that have democracies...... Yet the US primarily supports the "true" fascist Nations in the region, like Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar etc etc...


Your "concept" of brotherhood of nations seems more fascist considering how you demonize others. You're putting on Bush's clothes it seems. There is no such thing as an AXIS of EVIL.


Hamas for one was created to defend Palestinians and confront Israel instead of succumbing to the total annihilation of Palestinians. Should the Palestinians be kissing the feet of Israel as she puts bullets into the back of their heads...!!

Hamas is an extreme organization because of the extreme actions taken by Israel against the Palestinians. Hamas is brutal because Israel is brutal... Hamas my dear pelsar is a reflection of Israel

If Hamas is fascist then so is Israel, the two are inseparable. Yet Israel (the better of the 2 devils) is accepted by the US and most Western Nations, so why not Hamas?


Do excuse me, but I don't accept double standards, based on race or color. All human beings are one and need to be treated equally.



Quite honestly, I don't think your honestly concerned about fascism one bit, you're primarily driving a blind "Pro-Israel Agenda". All your views are mainly toward that purpose. You've fixed the bottom-line, hence we're getting nowhere is our discussion....


You need to open your eyes to a greater world, which has a very large variety of different people. We cannot fall into one brotherhood of nations that fits your fancy.

[barb162]

8. Take a look at the "Abbas Must Act" thread

I just put up.

[madrchsod]

2. that is what sharon wants

civil war will keep him in power.

[Burning Water]

3. I don't know

all the situation, but how is a Palestinian civil war a problem for the Israelis?? Who do they negotiate with if no one is in charge on the Palestinian side??

[Colorado Blue]

13. You just said it - nobody with whom to negotiate. That's been

the problem since 1967 - actually since 1948, but since '67 with regard to the Palestinians in the West Bank/Gaza. With whom can the Israelis negotiate? The Israelis WANT to negotiate. The PLO wasn't an option. Those of you who were alive during those ancient times might recall Munich, Black September in Lebanon, the burning airliners, the terror attacks. And none of the Arab states would negotiate. Even today only Jordan and Egypt have peace agreements with Israel. Withdrawal from the territories was predicated on peace agreements. So where are they?

Oslo attempted to change that, to make the PLO/Fatah a legitimate political body - but the violence has soared since then instead of diminishing. Nonetheless some hope remains as long as the P.A. center holds.

Civil war would be terrible for Palestinians and Israelis alike. For the Palestinians the scenario is obvious - beyond the bloodshed, the destruction of hope, of what economic promise still exists. For Israel, chaos on their borders, in a country so small there is no room for error or the chaos will threaten them as well - plus the creation of a region even more traumatized and impoverished than it already is. This is no recipe for regional stability - other countries would be affected as well: Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria, possibly even the Arabian peninsula. That of course would be a nightmare scenario for the US.

Violence is no way to solve problems. But no matter how often people say that nobody seems to listen and the violence rages on.

[hiabrill]

24. Israel doesn't want to negotiate

Israel intends to reach a final solution through violence alone.

And that's mainly because they want an unacceptable final solution that only caters to Israel demands and wants.

Violence only sours because of Israels actions against the Palestinians. Israel has delibarately impoverished and traumatized the Palestinians by caging them into enclaves.


Peace doesn't seem to be the option Israel wants. After all it's got the full unwavering support of the US, so why should it hold back and not push to completely kick Palestinians out of their lands..!!

[pelsar]

25. am i missing something?

if israel wants to kick the palestenains out...there doing a pretty poor job of it....gaza is case in point....but i have noticed that facts on the ground just dont seem enough when people are "stuck" on a single idea......hard to open ones mind to new facts....some people might be wrong...and the israelis..human

[barb162]

21. A civil war is often a problem for a neighbor country

in many respects as Colorado Blue pointed out