CORRECTED: Europe condemns Iran's call to wipe out Israel

[Catchawave]

By David Clarke
Thu Oct 27, 1:29 PM ET



Europe strongly condemned Iran's president on Thursday for saying Israel should be "wiped off the map" and said the call raised concerns about the aims of a country the West suspects is planning to build an atomic bomb.

Support for the Palestinian cause is a central policy pillar for the Islamic Republic, which does not recognize Israel, and its President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Wednesday the Islamic world "will not let its historic enemy live in its heartland."

European Union leaders and Russia joined the United States and Canada in condemning the comments attributed to Ahmadinejad and Iranian envoys in capitals across Europe, including Russia, were summoned to explain the remarks.

...more...http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051027/wl_nm/iran_israel_dc_10&printer=1

[aquart]

1. Fine. I give permission for Israel to blast their reactors to kingdom come

But WE ain't going in.

[Catchawave]

2. I'm fine with that too...and am waiting

for the MSM to cover this...:bounce:<<wishful thinkin'

[hogwyld]

4. Won't happen

Too many in the MSM are in love with the Berkley frame of thought being Arabs, especially Palestinians good, Jews, bad. I admire the Israeli's because when it comes to their survival, they could give a sh*t what the world thinks of them.

[High Plains]

8. Puh-leeze, the pro-Palestinian mainstream media?

Gimme a break.

[JudyM]

33. Ever hear of Jenin 'massacre'? Just an example. Never happened and MSM

reported a 'massacre' as front page but when the Arabs themselves later conceded it never happened THAT info was buried. Many times the news reports Israeli aggression without mentioning that it is *in response* to a bombing of its civilians. And on and on...

[nodehopper]

37. this is ridiculous. Take it to the I/P forum.

[Jim Sagle]

80. Ridiculous? No, every word is true. And everybody damn well knows it.

[leveymg]

9. They'd better care deeply what Washington thinks and does. We're

their protector and primary source of arms and revenue.

The Larry Franklin OSP-AIPAC spy case points out that the Likud regime doesn't seem to respect that relationship. I believe that they bet the house on the US taking out Syria and Iran after Iraq, and they lost that bet.

There's not going to be any attack because it's not in the US national interest to allow it.

[manic expression]

20. What?

Pro-Palestinian MSM? Are you serious?

It's not "survival"...it's oppression and injustice. Palestinians are trying to survive, and are many times being thwarted by Israel's base actions.

[aquart]

27. Yes, of course.

It's wrong of Israel to get so nasty about a few missiles and exploded buses. I'm sure none of us would get angry if someone blew up something of ours.

International Relations 101: a weak nation must retaliate with force immediately. A strong nation has other options (pity George never took this class) but a weak one has only force.

Spinning this myth of Israel the Mighty out of that rudimentary standard reaction is ... ignorant? biased?

Tiny postage stamp of a nation surrounded by millions who have been taught to hate it...and you would have it behave how?

Please. Let us hear your plan for peace.

[Psephos]

38. I agree with what you say n/t

[leveymg]

3. Problem is. We paid for the planes and bombs the IAF would use, and

the Iranians have chemical warhead tipped intermediate-range ballistic missiles with which they would retaliate against our forces in the region. They also have very sophisticated anti-shipping missiles and would be able to blockade the Straights of Hormuz for months.

The Russians, who are building the reactor at Bushehr, have hundreds of their own engineers and technicians at the site.

The Chinese have multi-billion dollar oil contracts with Iran, upon which they rely for 20 percent of their import needs.

World War Four, anyone?

Better watch what you hope or give permission for.

[sarcasmo]

7. Why would we do that, the U.S. taxpayer would end up paying for the

rebuilding of Iran.

[newyorican]

24. If Israel "blasts" anything in Iran...

those planes will fly back to Israel.

What is left? Over 100,000 American troops between Iran and Israel stationed in Iraq.



To fail to plan is to plan to fail.

[Julius Civitatus]

5. The new Iranian premier is a scary guy

and he's definitely more of a radical than people thought. I do believe he may have been one of the hostage-takers of the late 70s, as many former American hostages in Iran have confessed.

This is not a good turn of events, and it will certainly spin things off further toward chaos. Of course, after making these disgraceful comments, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has singlehandedly wiped out any support that his country may have had in Europe regarding the current nuclear negotiations. Iran can not be allowed to have nukes, period!

:scared:

[leveymg]

6. Ahmadinejad is almost as scary as our President. I hope he's not as stupid

This is not a good start. What exactly did he say? Please link to a solid source.

[Julius Civitatus]

12. Here's two articles

Ahmadinejad called to wipe Isarel off the map.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4383856.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4378948.stm

[leveymg]

13. The Europeans at the IAEA so remind me of Claude Raines in Casablanca.

He plays the jaded French police chief who, when pretending to pursue some Resistance men who had shot a German officer into Rick's American Cafe, says quite loudly, at the door, "Gambling in here? I'm shocked. Shocked, I say." Upon hearing that, all the patrons drop their cards and and pretend to be doing something else.

Amidst the ups and downs of the game of nerves between the US and Iran, the E-3 are so much like Raines. They're pretending to be outraged at Iran, knowing full well that its nuclear program is a fact of life. Everyone will just go back to playing cards once the gendarmes and the Germans depart.

[sweepster]

14. "Round up the usual suspects"

That movie was a classic. So many great lines.

[leveymg]

16. It's a foreign policy primer. One of the best ever written.

I can watch it over and over again, and always see something new in it.

Same with the Wizard of Oz, the 1939 movie version of which was played as a sweet tart parable for how the US would-should liberate Europe. "Ding-dong the witch is dead . . ."

[sweepster]

18. So was the cowardly lion supposed to be France?

:)

[leveymg]

19. I don't think L. Frank Baum meant it that way.

But, Burt's character could be viewed that way by someone looking back six decades later at end of the Third Republic.

The Wicked Witch definitely had a Germanic quality, and her guards were no doubt the long-suffering Russian Army. Tin Man and Scare Crow? Care to guess?

Dorothy, the liberator, she was no doubt just a girl from Kansas. Must have been nice to view America as so innocent and well-intentioned.

[sweepster]

21. I'm a big fan of movies from that era....

Yes I agree there was alot of subtle messaging back then in movies. Today you have no doubt where a actor stands polictically in a movie...which I think has taken something away from todays movies whether the message is from the right or left.

Another good flick is "Best Years of Our Lives" circa 1946

[leveymg]

22. Of course, "It's a Wonderful Life" was Capra's greatest

I've watched that repeatedly. A really great End of War story.

Better than "Best Years" in my book was "From Here to Eternity" (1953) I first saw that when I was ten on TV. The air raid sequence at Pearl Harbor was very realistic. Lancaster reminded me of my Dad, and Ernest Borgnine scared me.

I much prefer the way they treated Lancaster's long kiss in the surf with Deborah Kerr to how that scene would be done today. Some things are better left to the imagination.

[Julius Civitatus]

28. No. The lion was supposed to be Chamberlain's Britain

The lion is a very evident symbol for the British empire.

[sweepster]

30. That is an excellent point... I just had to give it to the french though

O.k. who was the scarecrow and the tin man?

[Igel]

26. He's more of a radical than some people thought.

Some people had him pegged for this degree of radicalism.

[populistdriven]

10. If Bush bungles this and allows Iran to get nukes. It will be worst

foreign policy mistake of any President we have ever had.

Unfortunatety with Dr Strangeglove in control the only outcome I see is WW3

[leveymg]

11. The object lesson of Iraq is, if you disarm, you're dead.

What conceivable incentive is there for Iran to give up its nuclear program? They're much too big to invade and occupy. They can field 17 million men under arms. If we bomb, they'll just quickly rebuild a nuclear program bigger than the one they have now. And, they'll be much more likely to use it 8-10 years down the road.

This is all so much posturing and psychological warfare.

[bloom]

71. "if you disarm, you're dead."

that is a good point.

The neo-cons were so asking for this - esp. with Bush*s crusade talk, Cheney talking about nuking them.

I'm surprised the "war" hasn't spread already.

[hogwyld]

34. He can't do anything to stop them

Iran won't listen to our diplomatic efforts, instead using them as a stalling tactic. We sure as hell can't invade them, and the EU, Russia, and China have to many economic interests to risk pissing off Iran. So we can't launch missles. So we might as well accept this as a reality.

[sweepster]

15. The middle east is terrified over Iran getting nukes

Saw a good program the recently on Link TV. Jordon and other countries are secretly wishing someone takes out Iran's nuke capabilities but don't say it aloud as not to make it look they are siding with the infidel west. The program was clearly against iran nuke and that station is normally very anti -west

[leveymg]

17. The last thing the Jordanians -- or anyone -- in the region want is

an air raid on the Bushehr nuclear plant. Much less, a general Mid-East War.

Everybody should be afraid of Iran, and Israel, and the Bush Administration. By the way, it certainly pays to mouth friendly things about the U.S. these days in Aman. Who do you think is renting all the nice hotel rooms in town?

[Jim Sagle]

81. Everybody should be afraid of Israel? GARBAGE!!!!

Check out the map in post 24 and get back to me.

[fshrink]

29. I am terrified of living 10 miles from silos

with an angry idiot 2 inches from the red button.

[hogwyld]

23. So tempting...

Pull all of our troops out, let them all blow each other up, move in and liberate the oil. Of course, that's not PC.

[sweepster]

32. What about..

using the neutron bomb? I would like to live in one of saddams palaces without any radioactive side effects :)

[hogwyld]

35. The barbarian part of me

Says, let all those ME countries just whack on each other for awhile, eventually, they will get sick of the killing and destruction, and hopefully, live in peace w/ the world. Look at Europe as a model. They had centuries of warfare, 2 world wars on their soil, finally had enough, and became peaceful nations.

[bloom]

72. That seems to be the Cheney/Rumsfeld/neo-con plan... eom

[newyorican]

25. Whom has more experience at wiping things from maps?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

31. I was wondering...

...what's the source for that map?

[newyorican]

36. Source for the map...

Colorado Campaign for Middle East Peace

www.ccmep.org/delegations/maps/palestine.html

[Coastie for Truth]

44. Ten links to Paul Findley on their web site N/T

[Coastie for Truth]

45. Twenty nine links to Alison Weir on their web site NT

[Englander]

46. Two points -

1} So what?

2} Prove it, list them.

[Coastie for Truth]

47. Darn

My Chief of Staff was napping. Get up Chief of Staff --

<>

You asked "1} So what?" I will let that question stand. Asking it says at least a tidbit about the questioner - unless presented as a Barrister's adversarial question.

You also asked "2} Prove it, list them."
The following was obtained using the embedded Google search engine from the home page of the

[pelsar]

50. the moral of the maps....

the lesson is quite simple:....stop attacking israel.

notice that everytime the arabs/palestenains attack they keep losing....you would think that maybe, just maybe they might figure it out.....

trouble is they keep listening to people and countries that keep telling them (like iran) to keep it up.....one day they might open their eyes and realize they have been just "useful idiotes" for people and countries with a different agenda.

[hiabrill]

67. Israel is not being attacked

Israel is suppressing Palestinians and they are attacking in response to the inhumane and degrading lives they have to endure under a draconian occupation....

You forget, the occupation came first NOT the attacks.

Imagine Iran occupying Texas... try looking at this issue with you on the receiving end of a brutal occupation for 3 generations..!!!



Palestinians listen to Iran because they know the West will silently encourage Israel to continue with the occupation. There has never been any strong condemnation against Israel from Western Nations, ever.

Should the Palestinians turn to America for justice (instead of Iran), in your opinion?

[eyl]

68. Actually

the attacks came first - they were one of the reasons for the wars in 56 and 67 (and in a way, 48)

[hiabrill]

69. No it started with the occupation of confiscated Arab land

Let's go back to the true origin of all the violence we're seeing.

[eyl]

84. Terrorism began

well before any land confiscations.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Englander]

40. Congrats, you've found a Kahanist hate site.

As Lithos explained last month;

'Masada2000.org is a Kahanist affiliated website and not considered acceptable for use on DU. Not only does it have a bigoted agenda, the Kahanist party is considered a terrorist group by not only by the US, but by Israel.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator
Democratic Underground

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=101570&mesg_id=101707

[Coastie for Truth]

42. Any good read on Sir Mark Sykes, OBE, VC, and Sykes-Picot

M'lord, any good reference on Sykes-Picot and Sir Mark Sykes, OBC, VC, will contain the same maps.

By the way, M'Lord, even a broken clock is right two times a day.

[Englander]

43. Damn.

This wee fella has gone on strike -

Get back to work, dammit!!

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[idontwantaname]

56. #1 counter-argument=the holocaust

CB, nobody is saying jews DONT have the right to exist... perhaps when you have to resort to such sites as masada2000.org it means you should consider what others are posting... not push yourself further right.

[Colorado Blue]

61. OH. The president of Iran isn't saying Jews don't have a

right to exist. He's only saying it's a great idea to wipe out the stain on Islam which consists of the 6,000,000 people of Israel.

So I guess it's ok for the 6,000,000 of us who would be left to live forever in diaspora or as proper dhimmi, never to live in our homeland, never to celebrate Passover in Jerusalem, never to enjoy the security of self-determination in Israel.

I'm not being driven further right. I'm being driven out of my blooming mind. I can't believe this is going on in the 21st century. I'm old enough - 55 - that my parents fought in WWII - my father-in-law on the other side as it happens. My uncle - whose parents fled pogroms in Russia - died in that war. My husband was born in the ruins of Germany. This is REAL.

If we do not do something, no ifs and or buts, to combat hatred this extreme we are all doomed. It must begin even among people who disagree about this or that boundary line or this or that settlement, or this or that checkpoint, or whether this or that party should run for office (here or in the P.A. - wherever). Our squabbles are petty compared to what can be unleashed when hatred, madness, is unleashed upon the world - especially if is has a religious component - and this clearly does. And this demagogue is using the opportunity of the holy time of Ramadan to stir up riots celebrating the proposed destruction of 6,000,000 people all over the Muslim world. What a perversion of the religion of peace.

I was gratified that the leaders of the P.A. condemned this statement. He is threatening Arab leaders as well, other Muslims who recognize or deal with Israel. This is extremely serious and it's time for people like us to drop the hatchet and realize we have SERIOUS PROBLEMS to deal with.

[idontwantaname]

62. i meant nobody *here on DU* says jews dont have the right to exist...

it seems very much youre living in the 1940s... this is 2005. israel has one of the most powerful militaries on this planet... with nukes dont forget.

[Colorado Blue]

78. That's just the problem. I'm not living in the 1940's, this IS

2005, and the same sort of rhetoric spouted by Hitler and subsequently by a succession of people in the Middle East, is still vigorously alive.

I just read an article that the Iranians have now offered a bounty of $10,000 if Islamic Jihad will fire rockets on Tel Aviv. So it's more than just rhetoric. People have died, will die, because of this hatred.

Also - the fact that Israel has a powerful military means absolutely zip, past a certain point. War isn't the desire of Israel, but peace. The military isn't really all that useful at obtaining peace - as we have seen. No amount of military firepower can change attitudes, or heal the wounds of the past.

And what a ghastly tragedy it would be were nukes EVER to be used again. The Israeli military could probably have squashed her neighbors ten times over but that isn't the idea! The idea is to live side by side with the neighbors, not to destroy them - bigoted ideas about Zionism to the contrary notwithstanding. The disenfranchisement of Arabs was absolutely NEVER the intention of Zionism, and nor is "world domination". Yet I see these attitudes toward Zionism expressed not just by neonazis or hardline Islamist leaders and mullahs, but by people who consider themselves progressives. This is a serious problem and one that no amount of military power can overcome.

[Englander]

65. If the maps are correct, then use a legitimate source.

Also, don't forget;

'Proper use of certain words:

* Do not compare Middle East regional leaders and parties to Hitler or the Nazis. Use of these terms is considered inflammatory and should be avoided.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x21970

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eyl]

52. Since you keep flashing that map around

would you mind explaining why you think Tel Aviv was Palestinian territory?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x103239#103284

[newyorican]

53. Before it was Tel Aviv it was known as Jaffa

eyl (577 posts) Fri Oct-28-05 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
36. Are you aware that,
according to that map, e.g. Tel Aviv - which, prior to being established by Jews in 1908, was literaly a series of sand dunes - was "Palestinian land"? And it's not the only "vanished" community.

Nor does it take into account that about 70% of the land was owned neither by Palestinians nor Jews.

IOW - check your sources better

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x103239#103284

Jaffa Environs Circa 1912

On Edit: I am informed that Tel Aviv was built on the sand dunes on this map. Perhaps the greater level of detail makes this clear.

[Colorado Blue]

55. AND AGAIN SO WHAT? Before it was Jaffa it was something

else. Maybe the destruction of the Roman Empire was Israel's fault also. In fact I find that an amusing concept. Before it was part of the Roman Empire it was JUDEA.

[idontwantaname]

57. your limited knowledge of israels geography is evident...

however i will leave it to eyl to post why.

[Colorado Blue]

59. Oh. I suppose Jews never lived here.

Give me a break.

[idontwantaname]

60. nope.. but instead of sarcasm and condescending remarks...

you should just ask eyl what im referring to.

[eyl]

64. As noted below

Tel Aviv and Jaffa are distinct entities, though part of the same municipality. Also, AFAIK, Jaffa was never known by another name - it dates back almost 4,000 years, and is mentioned by name in the Bible (e.g. Jonah, chapter 1 verse 3 - the name of the city in Hebrew is identical to the modern name of the city, though the English translation has it as "Joppa") - Hebrew tradition has it that it was named after Noah's son Jafeth. And I think it was part of the Kingdom of Israel, not Judea.

[eyl]

63. Tel Aviv

was indeed built in the sand dunes north of Jaffa. Jaffa still exists as a distinct city today (i.e. not Tel Aviv*), though they're both part of the same municipality (which is why it's often referred to as Tel Aviv-Jaffa

However, your original map, even seen in closeup, designates that entire region as Palestinian; besides that, a lot of the territory marked as Palestinian (about %70) was owned by neither Palestinians nor Jews.

*Well, if you want to be anal about it, Tel Yaffo - the site of the ancient city - is inside Tel Aviv's limits.

[Jim Sagle]

82. The map in post 24 was so much more relevant.

[Long Time Lurker]

41. When in doubt, blame the JOOOOOOS

Always easiest that way. Doesn;t matter that some nutjob Iranian president wants to annihilate a sovereign nation. Doesn't matter that 22 Arab countries have always sought to kill Jews and wipe Israel off the map.

Always easiest to blame all the problems of the world on Israel!

[Long Time Lurker]

51. Hate site?

I think it's a bit hyperbolic, but there isn't a single doubt that Jews have a history in Palestine for thousands of years.

[Colorado Blue]

58. I agree the site is a bit hyperbolic, and I apologize to those

whose delicate sensibilities I may have offended by pointing out some maps that are, in fact, correct.

And I thank you for pointing out that the Jewish people have lived CONTINUOUSLY in this region, even through the Roman diaspora and through centuries of subjugation as dhimmi, for thousands of years. And the very title of the site, Masada, refers to a site and a story that is important for people to know.

ENOUGH. We are discussing a person who wishes to create another holocaust. From what I've been picking up off the wire services this idea is being celebrated in Muslim capitals - Iran, Nigeria, Kuwait.

So to those of you who are having a cow about a website, please consider the history of the people whose destruction is being proposed. And to those of you who think it's acceptable to continue terrorism - or should I say "armed struggle"? - against Israel, as in certain persons who might be adherents of ISM, I suggest you study a little history and get a grip on what you're dealing with.

This is not a game and this history is no myth.

[Englander]

66. Er, CB?

Did you see this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=179488

[Violet_Crumble]

70. Beyond disgust....

That about sums up my feelings when a hate-site is described as merely 'a bit hyperbolic' and those who are rightly offended by it are described as 'having a cow' or having 'delicate sensibilities', as though there's something wrong with being offended by hate-sites...

If maps are found on a hate-site, then the wise thing to do is go and try and find the same maps on a legitimate website and link to that website, not a hate-site. If they can't be found, then the authenticity of those maps must come into question, and they shouldn't be used...

Bottom line is that there's no justification for posting links to hate-sites. No-one 'pushes' anyone into doing that, and it should be remembered that once anyone resorts to posting links to hate-sites in order to try to get their point across, the point is lost because no-one who opposes bigotry against one group of people can sustain their argument as to why bigotry is wrong when linking to a bigoted site themselves...

On a side-note, I could be called an adherent of the ISM, and I'm offended that you say that I think it's acceptable to continue terrorism. That's NOT what the ISM is about. There's no need to study history to know that because it's there in black and white on the ISM website....

To join the ISM in Palestine, you must adhere to the following principles:

Belief in freedom for the Palestinian people based on all relevant United Nations Resolutions and international law.
Using only nonviolent, direct-action methods, strategies and principles to work towards our goal.

http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/about-ism/

Violet...

[bloom]

73. I don't think that all information

from a site should be banned because some people have secret knowledge that somebody they don't like donated money to it.

If it is obvious to people that it is a hate site - that is one thing. When people are not allowed to post anything from a site because that site tends to disagree with the Israeli - esp. the Likudists - leadership - that's something else entirely.

For instance - if some people don't like the maps posted in post #25:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=103307&mesg_id=103343

I think they should post their own maps.

And people with such standards should make sure their site doesn't say anything negative about Palestinians...

[Violet_Crumble]

74. The only problem with that is...

..that sites aren't banned just because some people have secret knowledge that someone they don't like donated money to it. This site is a hate-site, and it is obvious to people that it is. It's affiliated with Kahane, which is listed in Franklin's Hate Directory...

Having been in this forum a few years now, I know sometimes people do link to hate-sites without intending to do so. The times I've seen it happen, they quickly apologise to all for doing it and if the time for a post-edit hasn't expired, they delete the link themselves. I've never up till now seen anyone on being told they've linked to a hate-site turn around and try and justify why they think it was okay for them to do so....

Violet...

[bloom]

75. I don't even know

if you are talking about this site:

http://www.ccmep.org/

or another site.

These things get deleted - so who knows.

The Ifamericaknew site is a site that people who post from it get their posts deleted and I was told vague unlikable people supported it.

It's not even like people are saying that the information is wrong. They just don't like everyone who is associated with it. It seems to me I could probably find negative things about their sites if I felt like it.

[Coastie for Truth]

76. Let's set the record straight---

You posted

The Ifamericaknew site is a site that people who post from it get their posts deleted and I was told vague unlikable people supported it.

You were told Alison Weir and Congressman Paul Findley and Jim Ennes contributed, and Koch and Coors funding.

[bloom]

85. The record

you wrote:

The article he linked to came from a

link in Alison Weir's and Paul Findley's "If Americans Knew", and is out of the "Jewish Voice for Peace" - a group with "International Answer"'s Hecksher.

A chain of not very credible sources.

and

I note that you reference Alison Weir's "ifamericansknew" webazine - brought to you by my dear friends from the 2004 Presidential Campaign - honorary Swiftie for Truth LT Jim Ennes and Swiftie for Truth financial backer the Koch Foundation. Hardly credible.

and you didn't back anything up with any links or citations or any other kind of thing - even when asked off-forum (and I don't remember anything mentioned about Coors at all - maybe I'm supposed an expert on all of these people).

While it is easy enough to google Paul Findley and find out that he is anti-Israel - that in itself does not seem to be a reason for banning a site. I think the burden of proof is on you. If you have it - fine - but I don't think people being anti-Israel is enough - you need more than that.

Otherwise - nothing that is anti-Israel can be posted and nothing that is anti-Palestinian can be posted (in the interest of fairness and equality) and that would certainly limit the conversation considerably. And if people were not allowed to post suggestions that people are anti-semitic - as they so often do - there would be practically nothing to talk about at all....

[Violet_Crumble]

77. No, I think we're talking about different sites....

I thought you were talking about the link that was posted to masada2000, which is a hate-site....

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

79. OK. I officially apologize for linking to Masada, although there

is a LOT of good history there, ancient history.

I wasn't all that familiar with the site, saw the maps and linked. But, it is important that people realize what the Palestine Mandate actually encompassed, what was originally intended for the Jewish homeland, and how the land ultimately partioned to the Jews was a tiny percentage of that, yet proved to be too much and resulted in an existential war and 6 decades of more war and endless terror, as well as the tragedy of the Naqba.

I am angry and hurt that this terrible rant from the Iranian president, which should have elicted unanimous condemnation from this community, should have instead occasioned the posting of misleading maps from a compromised site. Not that this is anything new. But the "If Americans Knew" site and its supporters are guilty of serious breaches of fact as well as promoting serious antisemitism.

The BBC has maps of the settlement activity on the West Bank, which are much more accurate. I couldn't find them and I was mad and in a hurry. What they indicate is that the settlement activity is indeed widespread, but that the land actually affected constitutes some 2% of the total. The fence is incorporating some 7%, all told.

Obviously the total impact of the settlement activity is far greater than mere maps can indicate, especially since the intifada and the ongoing violence, which has caused much of the problems with transportation, etc. There are serious problems and need to be addressed. I had hoped, people of good will had hoped, that we were FINALLY getting somewhere, when the violence started flaring up again.

I would like to hear, for a change, some creative - and I mean CREATIVE - ideas, about how the Palestinian people can be helped without the serious compromising or destruction of Israel. And I'd like to hear how Jewish people can be incorporated into the proposed Palestinian state. 20% of Israel is Arab and my Israeli friends tell me they are becoming more and more an integral part of Israel all the time. I don't understand why Jewish people can't live on the West Bank.

There are now, besides the people living in Gaza and on the West Bank, some 4.5 million people, original refugees from 1948 and their descendants. Demanding that they be "returned" to Israel, especially the DESCENDANTS, is something that is simply not going to work. Yet, living as stateless persons in camps is just not right. I don't understand why the Arab League states haven't acted in concert with the UN and with the Israelis, and worked among themselves, to help. It still seems as though the first, last and only option on the table is to await the failure of Israeli defenses. That is such a dark path.

Similarly, demands that Israel must do this or that or there will be 1,000 years of war will lead nowhere but to more suffering. There must be talk, compromise, in an atmosphere of calm, not merely an interlude between violent episodes. This is a regional problem, one that must involve the good will and cooperation of several neighboring states - and more than anything the resolve to lay down the weapons, stop the killing, and live in hope rather than in fear.

On the topic of ISM, it was my understanding that armed resistance is supported by them. If I'm in error I apologize. I do believe, from talking to people who've dealt with them, that a certain portrayal of Israel, that is very dark, emanates therefrom. People need to remember: this is an active war zone. It is not going to give the impression, ESPECIALLY in Gaza and the West Bank, of downtown Boston.

I think, I could take people on tours of any large American city - a peaceful town, not one in a war zone - and leave them with an impression that the US is a horrible, racist, poor, apartheid country. It isn't. It is also not a perfect democracy, there IS racism and poverty, and even with the best of intentions millions live below the poverty line, millions are trapped in desolate corners of our most glittering cities.

I've walked into sections of this city, taught and performed in concrete ghettos, within sight of a magical world that can't be touched from this other reality. And yet, only a few miles separate the one world from the other.

It is our job to help link them.

[Violet_Crumble]

88. The 'history' provided by hate-sites is in no way good...

Because they're sites that promote the hatred of a particular group of people, the 'history' they tend to put on those sort of sites are ones that promote the superiority of one group over the one the site is bigoted against, usually with the result of completely erasing the other group as anything approaching human-beings. I'll repeat what I said again. If maps etc on a hate-site can't be found elsewhere, there's a very good chance the maps etc are stinky as hell...

I've heard this call to hear 'creative ideas' about helping the Palestinian people more than several times now. I've tried to start discussions along these lines and gotten nowhere, so my suggestion is that maybe you could start talking about the 'creative ideas' you've got and see if anyone follows. But I'm not in this thread to do that. I posted because I was totally disgusted at the thought there could be any justification ever for using hate-sites here at DU...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

83. But its perfectly okay on a so-called Progressive site

to link to Koch Foundation and Coors foundation funded Alison Weir and Jim Ennes and Paul Findley "hate sites" like "If Americans Knew."

The hypocrisy is so thick--------- I could :puke:

[idontwantaname]

86. If Americans Knew is not a hate site...

please if you would explain further on why you think so?

[Colorado Blue]

87. Just about everything about their interpretation of the history

of Israel is filtered through a sieve of hate, with the deliberate intention of creating a dark view of Israel and Israeli people. There is both factual error, but also more subtle distortion. The agenda is very clear, but unless you're well read and experienced it is sometimes difficult to detect. That's the most dangerous thing about it.

I don't really have time to go into this in depth right now, but one of these days I'll give you some concrete examples.

[Violet_Crumble]

89. As oppsed to Masada2000????

n/t