Israel: Anti-aircraft missiles smuggled into Gaza

[ECH1969]

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Palestinians have smuggled anti-aircraft missiles into the Gaza Strip along with tons of other military hardware since Israel withdrew in September, an Israeli intelligence report said on Monday.

The missiles were smuggled into Gaza across the border from Egypt, the Shin Bet security agency's report said.

The report said "a small number" of anti-aircraft missiles had been smuggled into Gaza along with 200 anti-tank rocket launchers, 300 anti-tank rockets, 5,000 automatic rifles and five tons of explosives since the pullout.

According to the report, the amount of weaponry smuggled into Gaza since the Israeli withdrawal was some six times the amount smuggled from Egypt to Gaza during January to September 2005 when Israel controlled the Gaza-Egypt border.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060102/wl_nm/mideast_smuggling_dc

[madeline_con]

1. No peace with Sharon

No peace with Sharon

The Gaza withdrawal has been a veil for continued persecution and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians

(snip

I recently returned from leading the first British parliamentary delegation to the Palestinian Authority. What we saw is never seen by ordinary, decent Israelis, like the citizens of Netanya - who, since they dare not venture into the occupied territories, have no idea of the persecution of Palestinians being carried out in their name.

(snip)


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1660589,00.html

[pelsar]

8. dont fool yourselve....

what they saw is also seen by "ordinary decent israelis"...and their sons are those soldiers they saw...and the husbands are there as well.

we have enough TV exposes to also keep us informed as well......

the gaza withdrawl....israel is not there anymore..we left....and what we got are missles everyday terrorizing our citizens all around Gaza.....attempting the ethnic cleanse an continued persecution of israelis living near the palestenian society....

perhaps the should stop trying to murder israelis?...these attempts at ethnic cleansing of jews has really got to stop

[ECH1969]

2. I wonder if they use it against military or civilian targets

If Islamic Jihad has the missles I think I can answer that question.

[barb162]

3. This is a very disturbing story and shows the border

monitoring isn't working at all. This list of arms smuggled shows some heavy duty items

[Tom Joad]

4. Aren't US weapons continue to be "smuggled" into Israel? Cat Bulldozers,

for example?
Those people continue to be tractored out by the Cats... as old muley said to me, once.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. I don't think they are being "smuggled."

[Tom Joad]

6. You mean they do this openly?!? Then use these bulldozers to

destroy homes and crops?? Say it ain't so.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Yes.

Although, I don't know they are considered weapons. Maybe the rockets being hurled at Israel are just "love taps?"

[Tom Joad]

9. If it destroys a home it is a weapon. A weapon of terrorism, because

it is an attack against civilians.

Attacks on civilians, any civilians, is a violation of international law. I do not support such acts. You have to speak for yourself.

[pelsar]

10. er...a house is not a civilian...

i realize its a minor point...but bulldozing a house is not attacking civilians (a house is an inanimate object)....you know like kassams or suicide bombers

[Tom Joad]

11. It is still a war crime. I oppose war crimes.

I support international law.

[pelsar]

12. we almost have something in common

I am against terrorism......and support freedom and civil rights

[Tom Joad]

13. You oppose the bulldozing of Palestinian homes and farms?

[pelsar]

14. depends...

if a house is used as "safe house", storing for weapons etc.....as part of the violence against israel then house should be razed to the ground.

the idea razing it to the ground as family punishment doesnt work, hence i am against it....if it did, i would have no problem with it

[Tom Joad]

15. 12,000 homes! 70,000 forced out! The systematic destruction of homes....

is a sign of the moral bankruptcy of the occupation.

Almost all the homes destroyed by the occupation army have had nothing to do with weapons or alleged crimes of a family member. Just in the wrong place and the "wrong ethnicity" at the wrong time in the eyes of the occupier.

"House demolitions have become the hallmark of the Occupation. Indeed, since 1967 Israel has demolished almost 12,000 Palestinian homes, leaving some 70,000 without shelter and traumatized. The systematic demolition of Palestinian homes is an attack on an entire people, an attempt to make the Palestinians submit to a mini-state or worse, an "autonomous" set of islands -- under Israeli control. We need to struggle against the Occupation so that both our peoples will eventually enjoy the fruits of a just peace. "
Source: Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions
http://www.icahd.org/

People who do not speak up about this are complicit in the violence.

[barb162]

17. I thought Pelsar explained his position pretty well in the previous

post, that is, if the building is used for unsavory purposes, such as terrorism, intending to murder or injure others, etc.,one would understandably want to destroy the structure so that the terrorism can't be pursued. Self-defense is in accord with international law.

[Violet_Crumble]

31. The only problem with that is...

...that some folk insist that every home demolished is a security threat and therefore justified. Pelsar doesn't appear to view things that way, but I recall you justifying the destruction of Palestinian homes in Rafah, an act which human rights groups have clearly said is not self-defence and are considered to be war crimes...

Violet...

[pelsar]

18. you seem to like the "racist card.." (not very precise are you......)

just in the wrong place and the "wrong ethnicity"

perhaps you can explain "which ethnicity you talking about? muslim? arab?....or perhaps "palestenian, which is a nationalisitic identity.

if you want to claim the "muslim or arab "card"....i'm afraid it doesnt work, since israeli arabs involved in terrorism havent had their homes destroyed (gosh now we cant call those evil zionists racists....without being hypocritical)

also..you seem to have not read my post in your haste to show how "morally corupt we are"...but since morals are a value, dependent upon circumstances, would you mind if we compared to other occupations to gage just how corrupt we are?...or are you one of those who claim that israel lives in a vacuum and its reactions have no relation to events on the ground or in the world..... and that israelis cant have reactions that are similar to others?

[Tom Joad]

26. It's the policy that is morally bankrupt. Why not join us in opposing it?

Some may want to twist my words to say I meant Israeli Jews, or Jewish people in general. It is the policy that endangers everyone, and it has no redeeming social value.

I also think the policy of war and the occupation in Iraq is morally bankrupt. Bush and the o'reillys in the world would twist that to mean that i hate Americans. That is a very simplistic view, but it is handy for propaganda purposes, so those opposing the war can be attacked as unpatriotic, and the focus is taken off the policy in question.

You said something about being against the collective punishment of Palestinians by destroying the homes of suicide bombers (because it does not work, i agree, and the israeli government has mostly stopped the practice after finally saying it made matters worse... they should have listened to us long ago).

However, the vast majority of these homes in question were not destroyed for that reason. These home demolitions continue. Why not join people of goodwill-- Palestinian, Israeli, internationals, in opposing this?
http://www.icahd.org/eng

[barb162]

28. Is it morally bankrupt for the Palestinians to be using collective

and random punishment against Israeli civilians through rocket and suicide attacks

[Violet_Crumble]

32. But it's not morally bankrupt when it comes to the Israelis??

That's a stance that makes no sense at all. btw, terrorist attacks aren't collective punishment. I didn't realise 9/11 and the Bali Bombings were collective punishment, and the reason for that is because they were terrorist attacks, and not acts of collective punishment carried out by an occupying power on the people it is occupying...

but you are going to have to explain something here. Seeing as how you view terrorist attacks on Israelis as collective punishment and call it morally bankrupt, why is it that you don't oppose collective punishment of the Palestinians and most definately don't call it morally bankrupt?

Violet...

[pelsar]

35. terrorism is also collective punishment......

shooting random missles into populations centers, targeting and blowing up civilians is more than mere terrorism its also collective punishment......

and israel also uses collective punishment.....though it doesnt "celebrate" it.....israel doest it for lack of alternative answers.....alternative solutions that even members of the DU cant seem to come up with (stopping kassams for instance...the thread has not a single real suggestion that the IDF can use.....). Thats the problem when the terrorists use their population as human shields

again, i've yet to see a suggestion here that the IDF can actually implement..... (a few "i dont have an answer....)


the palestenains on the other hand, have choices, the IDF wears uniforms, has bases...instead much of their attacks are at civilians in random ways....thats terrorism + collective punishment

[Tom Joad]

33. I have already said that intentional targeting of civilians is to be

condemned, regardless of the perpetrator. I think that applies all the way around. Some here only think it is to be condemned if the victims are Israelis. Some even laugh at subject of home demolitions. Maybe if such people had the chance like me and they talked with a child whose home was demolished (they were living in a rented home, having a very difficult time of it) and saw the look of hope and longing in her eyes (I will never forget this) she had while talking with an American who she thought might, just might, be able to do something to make it better... they would move from derision in other people's misery to taking action to change the facts that are taking place on the ground, to seeing another perspective.

There is no way the Israeli regime could continue the dispossession of Palestinian land and homes without collective punishment. So to get to the heart of the problem must be to end the occupation, to turn to an entirely new policy.

However, that is not likely to change anytime soon. West Bank settements are slated to expand at a record pace.

[pelsar]

34. but your wrong....

" So to get to the heart of the problem must be to end the occupation, to turn to an entirely new policy."

if that were true, there would not have been a war in 48 or 67, hizballa wouldnt be attacking up north etc. Iran wouldnt be talking about wiping israeli off the map, etc When you realize that the occupation is NOT the core of the problem, then you'll have a better understanding of the politics in the middle east.

In the meantime such a simplistic viewpoint does far more to continue the war than prevent the next one.

btw, if the occupation is the problem...would you mind explaining the previous wars?, the continual terrorists attacks on israel since pre48, the massive propaganda of hate coming out of the neighboring arab countries since 48 and that continues today?

more so, bringing the chaos of gaza in E.jersualem, where kassams could cause havoc in israel, is hardly a solution (note the abbas has said, the kassams are not his problem but israels).....

Note: i am assuming your "new policy" is israel returning to the 67 border, without any conditions.

as far as the hope of the palestenain child, her best hope is society that protects its own, via a value system based on life not on a death cult that celebrates those that target and kill civilans

[barb162]

16. I was going to write

thank you professor, but I have to stop laughing over the distinction between animates and inaminates (bwaha)

not done yet

:hi:

[Violet_Crumble]

19. The bit about it being a war crime is way more important...

I hope you got to that post and stopped laughing...

Violet...

[barb162]

20. If I see something funny, I will laugh as I want

I hope that is okay with you

[Violet_Crumble]

23. I didn't realise war crimes were funny...

...but I'm not telling you to not laugh. I'll just tell you I find it totally disgusting that anyone would find any war crime something to laugh about...

Violet...

[barb162]

25. War crimes aren't funny and I am glad you realize the same

I think a certain explanation about animate v.inanimate objects, etc., was funny. Again, I sincerely hope that is okay with you.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. I'm so glad you care what I think...

..but you were definately giving a strong impression in yr earlier reply to me that if you did find war crimes funny, I shouldn't have a problem with them...

Violet...

[barb162]

38. And I am so glad that you care what I think

:hi:

[Terran1212]

21. Anti-aircraft missles can only be used to shoot down .. aircraft, right?

Maybe they can finally withstand f-16 and Apache attacks.

[pelsar]

22. its called escalation...

what it means is that first, strike aircraft will "neutralize" the threat...that means big missles and big bombs...before others appear. its great if you dont mind more dead......

it also means that for the palestenians instead of concentrating on building a society they are still consumed with destroying israel....dumb choice

[Terran1212]

24. Shooting down IDF aircraft over occupied palestine is "destroying israel"?

[barb162]

27. Israeli aircraft is there because of attacks on Israel.

[Wordie]

29. Excellent point. Why the outcry about Pals needing defensive weapons?

It's circular reasoning, once again.

[pelsar]

36. no its not....

if the palestenains didnt shoot kassams, the IDF wouldnt be flying over gaza...its that simple

what part of that sentence is difficult to understand.

i shall repeat the short history of "liberated gaza"...israel left, and israel received the first day 30 missles....and everyday after that more missles.
(israels initial response was shelling empty fields)

perhaps the palestenains should try NOT shooting at israelis....thats called logic.
___________________________________________________________________

what part is hard to understand?

[pelsar]

37. i forgot...

why are the palestenians shooting missles over the border at israel?...and what was your suggestion as to what israels response should be?....