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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 01:57 AM
Original message
The strong man
For years he was a man of war, idolised and demonised in equal measure. But in recent years, Ariel Sharon has seemed the man most likely to deliver peace to the Middle East. Israeli novelist David Grossman and Palestinian academic Karma Nabulsi assess his legacy.

------
David Grossman

Sharon saw himself as a man who makes history, not one who yields to circumstance


Ariel Sharon is a man of potent primal urges, of violence, of combat, cunning and brilliance. He is a sharp manipulator, brave and corrupt. He has swung like a mighty pendulum between construction and destruction. He has blatantly ignored limits, whether international boundaries or the boundaries of the law. Clearly he has seen himself as a man destined to make history, not one who yields to circumstances. Time after time he instigated large-scale political and military manoeuvres meant to change the world utterly, to make it fit his own vision. And he always did so with determination, sometimes with brutality, without regard for what means he used to achieve his ends.

Yet even his sworn opponents are concerned as Sharon - as I write - lies in a hospital bed, fighting for his life. They hope, of course, that he will recover from his illness. But they are also worried about the huge vacuum that has suddenly opened in the Israeli leadership.

<snip>

Karma Nabulsi

He is no statesman and his motives have never been opaque - conquest by military means


Everybody knows that Ariel Sharon had a dark past. For us Palestinians, for me as a Palestinian, he is our dark present. The entire destruction of the fabric of our civic and political society over the past five years has had the looming presence of Sharon at its black heart. That single moment when in the year 2000 Sharon went to the Haram al-Sharif (Temple Mount) to light the chaotic, atavistic fuse of his return to political power - the moment that sparked our revolt against everything that he represented, and which began his rise to power - that single moment was the essence of his persona, the uniquely ruthless, relentless dynamic of his role as conqueror.

With the return of this man, we were lost, again, and one could not let his return be witnessed without an active daily resistance to it, and the fate he had in store for us. It was this single fact that mobilised me to work again in the political realm. Having lived in Beirut with my family and friends, and having worked, and fought, and stayed alive throughout the Israeli invasion of Lebanon that Sharon engineered in the spring and summer of 1982, I had no doubt what he had in store for us when he began his final climb back to power. And just so: in February of 2001, within three days of being elected prime minister, he was replaying across the West Bank and Gaza his dark arts, a mad echo of his practices of 20 years before in Lebanon: the assassination and destruction of the fighters, the local defence committees, the refugee camps. Women and children and young men killed, our buildings demolished, our institutional infrastructure, our records, our art, broken, gone. And, of course, our leadership encircled and besieged.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1680520,00.html

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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. This article is stunning. I'm left nearly speechless.
How could one man be seen so differently? It makes it so clear why this conflict exists, doesn't it.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It shouldn't be surprising...
How could one man be seen so differently?


Go back a year or so, to the days following the death of Arafat, and you'd find the same kind of polarization...with the sides flipped, of course.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. Take a clue from Israel's Left
The status quo is what both sides in I/P conflict were defending. It was the status quo that created the conditions for violence. Meanwhile the Roadmap was a dismal failure for two reasons: The first reason was Bush's decision to not do what Clinton did, getting involved in peacemaking, preferring instead to remain distant and detached waiting for the GAWD inside his head to give him instructions. The second reason is that the Roadmap had a fatal flaw that only Americans could fall for and that is that every goal in the Roadmap was tied to confidence building measures, targets for short, that as a target was achieved without violence, the parties could implement another target. The problem with this approach that could have only come from America academia, is that the opponents of peace on either side of the conflict learned very quickly that all they needed to do was to perpetrate some act of violence to derail the process.

Sharon knew that, as well as the late Arafat!

Part 2 coming later, I have to go pickup a veggie pizza for the kids!
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. it is amazing....
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 04:52 AM by pelsar
taken from the palestenain point of view:

the gaza evacuation......
An empty gesture anyway: in practice it is still owned and run by Israel, but now turned into a tragedy of heartbreaking proportions, a destroyed place, corrupted beyond description by the devastation of Israel's terrible role there since 1967

once again...blaiming israel and sharon for gazas present chaos.....his whole palestenians narrative seems to be based on the same idea...blame israel and in this case sharon personally.

he spends a lot of writing on Sabra and Shatila massacre...a massacre planned and carried out by lebanese christians....(yes i'm aware of what the israeli commission wrote and find the conclusions political oriented...)

its a simplistic "blame sharon" article.....

did i mention how the auther blames the intifada II on sharons walk on the temple mount.......again kind of strange given the organization of the beginning of the intifada II

____________
theres a lot one can say about sharon...but it doesnt require making things up
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. What was "made up"?
I read all of the article, both writers pieces, & I couldn't see anything in there
that was, quote, "made up". I think any attempt to deny Jabba's responsibility for
the bloody incidents that litter his career, to falsely claim that Sabra & Shatila are
*nothing* to do with him, or that the early morning stroll on Temple Mount that helped
to start the Intifada, wasn't an deliberately provocative & opportunistic attempt to
escalate, escalate, escalate would probably qualify as "making things up".
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. intifada II
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 12:21 PM by pelsar
was planned......two aspects stand out:

i was in the reserves months previous to his walk...we would watch the PA and "friends" in their training.....we had a military briefing on what to expect, the army simply didnt know what the catatlyst would be.

during the inital "protest" they all followed the same style all over the westbank: children/kids up front...gunmen in the back and mixed in


and bargrouti admitted it:

I knew that the end of September was the last period (of time) before the explosion, but when Sharon reached the al-Aqsa Mosque, this was the most appropriate moment for the outbreak of the intifada....The night prior to Sharon's visit, I participated in a panel on a local television station and I seized the opportunity to call on the public to go to the al-Aqsa Mosque in the morning, for it was not possible that Sharon would reach al-Haram al-Sharif just so, and walk away peacefully. I finished and went to al-Aqsa in the morning....We tried to create clashes without success because of the differences of opinion that emerged with others in the al-Aqsa compound at the time....After Sharon left, I remained for two hours in the presence of other people, we discussed the manner of response and how it was possible to react in all the cities (bilad) and not just in Jerusalem. We contacted all (the Palestinian) factions

London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat (September 29, 2001
_______________________________________________________

sabra and shatila....bottom line is christians massacring palestenians...it was they who planned it and they who pulled the triggers....

somehow i dont recall the palestenains being so pissed off at the actual murderers. I have no idea if sharon could read the minds of the christian militia, but somehow i doubt it.


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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. In other words, *nothing* in the articles was "made up".
And who's "bargrouti"?

:shrug:
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. bargrouti
head of the "tanzim"...one of the offshoots of fatah, and those that led the intifada II (local boys, graduate of Intifada I) and not connected to the tunisiam imports.

what the palestenain writer wrote is that sharons walk initiated intifada II

the moment that sparked our revolt against everything that he represented, and which began his rise to power - that single moment was the essence of his persona, the uniquely ruthless, relentless dynamic of his role as conqueror

With the addition of Bagroutis statement its clear they used their hatred of sharon to launch the assult on israel. (the auther seemed to "skip that part")...but then its also the palestenain take on it...

it seems that they just "like" hating sharon....at least thats my impression
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
67. That's ~~Barghouti~~
Spelling is important.

_____________


Did you see this?

"His visit to the Temple Mount in 2000, when tension between Israel and the Palestinians was combustible, was the match that set off the bloody al-Aqsa Intifada."

That's from the Isreali writers piece, that's from David Grossman's piece, he's saying exactly
the same thing as Karma Nabulsi, did you see that? Does he also "hate" Sharon?
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. It should be
(Marwan) Barghouti
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. sabra and shatilla..
Elie_Hobeika....hes the guy directly responsable for the massacres....but he's neither israeli or jewish....
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I fail to see the connection
are you sure you replied to the right post?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. just some general info..n/t
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
69. There isn't any connection. n/t
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
68. Yeah, I know. n/t
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. If Israelis knew of a build up, why did Sharon then go, with armed guards
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 05:11 PM by Wordie
to the al Asqua mosque? Why did he choose that time to do that? Why bring guards? Ask yourself those questions.

The claim that he was incapable of predicting that the outcome of his actions would be horrible bloodshed seems to be belied by what you yourself report. You see, he had other options, knowing there was some unrest. He could have taken steps to de-escalate the problems, could he not?

Same with Sabra and Chatilla. You aren't saying Sharon was profoundly stupid, unable to predict events (as he was apparently admired so often in other circumstances for doing), are you? Sharon had military responsibility for the camps. He ignored reports of the impending massacre, and did nothing for days while it was going on. Ergo, he was responsible, even if it was Phalangists who actually did the deed.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. sharon....
any israeli politician walking on "sacred" arab ground need guards...though the opposite isnt true...perhaps that should be your question...(of course jews arent even allowed on sacred saudi soil....that too is linked as to why an an israeli politician would need such, though the logic is beyond me)


Sabra and Shatilla...what "impending massacre" (unrest is the constant of war....),....the lebanese christians and muslims and palestenians had quite a hatred for each other with other killings, predicting when there would be a massacre and when their wouldnt would take a crystal ball, we dont have such........and the guy who actually ordered the killings:Elie_Hobeika...later became a minister and fled to syria..why isnt he the one the palestenains are after?

further more..just in case you dont have much military knowledge...entering a two way battle and turning it into a 3 way battle is simply "mad"...not to mention the obvious propaganda purpose the palestenians would use the entering of the IDF in to one of their camps during a battle (that would have been used profoundly here on DU accusing the IDF of massacring instead of preventing-and you would probably have been one accusing us of such......There was no way the IDF could have entered that battle and come out with its hands clean and without dead soldiers. It was a good decision to keep me out of such a mess.

the fact is it was lebanese christians doing battle against palestenains which was what the civil war was all about before israel entered, and their blood feuds (muslim/christian) started way before that as well. The blame goes to those who planned and did the killing, not the one who perhaps could have prevented it.

i doubt you could find any such instance in the western world where such guilt is assigned not to the perpertrators but the person who maybe should have know about it.....
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. al Asqa: still no explanation of why he would chose to go just then.
and with armed guards! Why did he decide to go there? What was his intent? Especially if there were reports of unrest, to go there in such a provocative manner...he could have taken steps instead to try to defuse the situation. Why did he choose the action he took, instead? Those questions aren't answered by anything in your reply.

Sabra and Chatilla: still no explanation of why he would ignore the reports of the impending disaster, and take steps to prevent it before it occurred. He had military responsibility for making sure it did not happen. He simply ignored that responsibility.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #32
50. what reports?
i never read about any "impending disaster" interms of Sabra and Shatilla....the phalangist were sent it to get some terrorist...as they were sent to other areas for military operations..i never read or heard of any "impending disaster reports" perhaps a link is in order here.

why did sharon go to visit the temple mount at that time?.... i really dont know.....but what your trying to do is blame the palestenian reaction on sharon. The palestenain reaction, is their responsability, they attacked israel.

israel attacked lebanon for a host of reasons, but the bottom line is that israel invaded lebanon....or are you going to defened israels invasion because they were provoked?...lets be consistent here.

...and then i would also assume you'll defend israels invasion of Gaza if required, for the provocations of the kassams...be consistent.
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. Read post #39.
It contains additional information (with links), crucial to understanding why Sharon really was responsible. Remember, the Israelis set the stage for the Phalangists to be there in the first place. If you pelsar, were to put a rabbit in a pen, and then allow a wolf into that pen, the wolf would eat the rabbit, but could you say you yourself were not responsible? Remember, these were primarily innocent unarmed people who were massacred.

And then there is this, from the Kahan Commission Report:
The Israelis decided to enter West Beirut. At the same time, it was decided to give the Phalangists an enhanced role in keeping order in Lebanon. They were assigned the role of entering the Palestinian refugee camps in West Beirut, which were controlled by armed Palestinians, whom the IDF had no interest in engaging. On the evening of September 16, 1982, a force of about 150 Phalangists entered the Sabra and Shatila camps under Israeli protection. (emphasis mine) It subsequently developed that instead of restoring order, the Phalangists perpetrated a massacre in the camps. Estimates of the number of people killed and missing vary from about 460 (Red Cross estimates) to 700 (IDF intelligence estimate) to 2,000 (Palestinian estimates). There is no doubt that the victims included women and children, as well as unarmed men, and were mostly not Palestinian fighters killed in the heat of battle.

The Chief of Staff of the IDF said:
...if we are not there - it will be an eruption the likes of which has never been seen; I can already see in their eyes what they are waiting for. (That was prior to the massacre.)

David Levy, the then Deputy Prime Minister said:
"We wanted to prevent chaos at a certain moment whose significance cannot be disregarded. When confusion exists which someone else could also have exploited, the situation can be explained in a convincing way. But that argument could be undercut and we could come out with no credibility when I hear that the Phalangists are already entering a certain neighborhood - and I know what the meaning of revenge is for them, what kind of slaughter. Then no one will believe we went in to create order there, and we will bear the blame. Therefore, I think that we are liable here to get into a situation in which we will be blamed, and our explanations will not stand up.

And Levy was completely accurate in his prediction, for good reason.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. your mixing things up....
the first part talks about the military uses of the phalangist...they were sent on a mission, the fact that they changed the mission from attacking terrorists to massacring (note it was changed when THEY ARRIVED, hence the IDF didnt know at the time).. you acussing the IDF of being poor mind readers...sorry i dont buy that....and once the massacre occcurs there was nothing to be done from the IDF point of view, as i stated.

the statement from the chief of staff: that could refer to every village the phalangist entered...some had killings some didnt....again your asking us to be able to read the future....

and David Levy?...not one of our more credible politicians....find one with a military background and experience..any way what he is saying is that israel shouldnt have been in that situation in the first place, seems he understands little about the dynamics of war...

again all that report says is:
israel shouldnt have been there (david levy)
the IDF should have been able to read the future....(these camps, these phalangist were somehow different from so many other operations....sheesh)

sorry were not supermen, we cant tell the future, we cant read what was on the phalangist minds when they changed the mission, nor did we do the killing.

Your charging the defense minister for actions of an ally during a war...i doubt you can find anything even remotly similar in any war in any year in any part of the world...try it....what makes us so special?
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. That "read the future" stuff
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 02:36 AM by Wordie
just doesn't fly, in the face of the info I presented in #39. In our everyday lives we all "predict the future" on the basis of past experience and knowledge. Good military men in particular need that skill to make good decisions. In light of the information in #39, it is just inconceivable that Sharon would not have been able to predict that the Phalangists he sent into the camp would massacre the Palestinians there. Sorry, pelsar, I just don't buy that "read the future" excuse for Sharon's actions.

In regard to your remarks about Levy: if even a politician unschooled in the art of war could predict a massacre, certainly Sharon could have.

Again, Sharon had military responsibility for the camp, and for the Phalangists being allowed to enter it. You seem to be doing the math (a simple 2+2) and coming up with a totally different conclusion than is warranted (2+2=-42???). That doesn't make any sense at all, and it's also clear that further discussion isn't going to get us anywhere.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #58
64. how many times....
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 07:02 AM by pelsar
did the phlangists enter muslim/palestenian villages and NOT massacre them.. the civil war lasted 1975-92

you now do that math...and the percentages (i'll give you a hint:lots of times...), how many massacres?

or you can take the other route:

The Palestinians were slowly drawn into the war and suffered massacre after massacre at the hands of their enemies (who often turned out to be just about everybody).

http://www.countercurrents.org/fisk090405.htm

so which one is correct and how can you tell when there will be a massacre and when they're wont be?

as far as military intelligence being right, see the above.....guess you've never been in the military, otherwise it wouldnt even come up

your still assuming that we can predict whats in the minds of others...well we cant, and to say that we're guilty of crimes committed by some one else is so absurd that its not done in anyother part of the world....have you found other examples?

where in the history of the world has the defense minister of a country been blamed for the doings of its allie?...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. once again...blaiming israel and sharon for gazas present chaos
are you surprised?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Please clarify.
Most of the Israel bashers are nothing more than antisemitic folks

Do you define all those critical of Israeli policies as "Israel bashers," and therefore anti-Semitic? When you say "most" of those bashers are "anti-Semitic, what percentage of those who criticize Israel are you referring to? Are there really any others left in your equation? Please offer me a criticism of Israel that you think falls into the other camp, that isn't "Israel bashing." Is there any?

In democracies, there are always a certain percentage of people who criticize their own governments. Does that mean those people are anti-the-whole-nation that they happen to live in? Can there be no criticism of Israel?

I'd really like to understand your reasoning.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. self delete
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 07:38 PM by Scurrilous
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Then why don't you have a problem with the Israeli writer saying the same?
Actually, both writers said the same thing about Sharon's visit to the temple mount:

David Grossman said: 'His visit to the Temple Mount in 2000, when tension between Israel and the Palestinians was combustible, was the match that set off the bloody al-Aqsa Intifada.' And Karma Nabulsi said: 'That single moment when in the year 2000 Sharon went to the Haram al-Sharif (Temple Mount) to light the chaotic, atavistic fuse of his return to political power.'

So how is it that the Palestinian writer is seen as succumbing to the blame game while nothing gets said about the Israeli writer saying the same thing? It's a fact that the visit to the temple mount was the match that set off the intifada...

You really don't think Israel holds any blame for Gaza being occupied for decades? You think that groups like Hamas and IJ would exist or be strong if it wasn't for the occupation?



What is a fact is that Sharon is not blameless. He and Israel do hold responsibility for things that have happened, and the reason the Palestinian writer spends a lot of writing on Sabra and Shatila is that the deaths of so many civilians cuts just as deeply with Palestinians as suicide bombings do with Israelis. Even to suggest that Sharon wasn't indirectly responsible for those massacres is bucking facts. There is nothing made up in that article from either author, and because both articles were well written and gave different perspectives of what Sharon meant to people, I thought people would get something out of reading them...


Violet...





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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. If the intifada was caused
by Sharon's visit to the Mount, how do you account for the fact that two Israeli's had been killed over the preceding two days - after almost a year of no fatalities?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. It was sparked by his visit to the Temple Mount...
I'm not sure why you think I have to account for any of the violence and tension leading up to it....

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Since your claim
is that the violence started with Sharon's visit, and I've shown you incidents immediately prior - which can't be explained as "business as usual", I'd like to hear why you disagree the intifada started prior to the visit.
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. Wouldn't those incidents suggest that he not go, especially with armed
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 05:33 PM by Wordie
guards? Why did he choose to go, if there had been recent incidents? What was his purpose?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. No, my claim is that his visit sparked the Intifada...
That's what writers of both articles are claiming as well. I have never claimed that there was no tension or violence leading up to the visit to the Temple Mount, but it was that incident that sparked the uprising....

Violet...
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
43. The horrendous death toll in the first months of the Al Aqsa intifadah
According to B'tselem

http://www.btselem.org

Since the beginning of these events on September 29, until December 2, 264 people were killed in the Occupied Territories, and over 10,000 were injured:

* 204 Palestinian civilians were killed by IDF forces, of them 73 minors aged 17 and under.
* 24 members of the Palestinian security forces were killed by IDF forces.
* 4 foreign nationals were killed by IDF forces.
* 3 Palestinian civilians (at least) were killed by Israeli settlers.
* 13 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinian civilians. (Within West Bank and Gaza)
* 11 members of the Israeli security forces were killed by Palestinian civilians.
* 5 members of the Israeli security forces were killed by members of the Palestinian security forces.

See more at
http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/20001206.asp

I do not have space to list even the 73 Palestinian children who died in those first few months, certainly not the total of 200+ civilians.

Within Israel, these are the people who were killed by Palestinians during the first months of the intifidah, From the end of September until the end of the year 2000:
Meir Bahrame * Shoshana Reis * Hanan Levy * Ayelet Shahar Levy

These four people, mattered, and they too should be mourned. With those 13 Israeli civilians listed above, and these 4 more from within Israel, this is the total number of Israeli civilian casualties. So we see over 250 Palestinian civilians killed (over 50 Palestinians from within Israel) and 17 Israeli civilians.

It would be a mistake to simply say "there was violence on both sides" when one side is inflicting 90% of the casualties.

Is it any wonder that the violence increased?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #43
51. israel was prepared.....
shucks....because more palestenains were killed, that makes israel the "bad guy"...samething happend in 48, 67, 73..more arabs were killed than israelis.

unlike intifada I the military intelligence was correct, and the means to react was well prepared....far more palestenains were killed during the intifada II war because the IDF knew it was coming and how to react.

theres a lesson here....stop trying to kill israelis...intifada I was relativly less violent in nature and had over 50% of the israelis supporting negotiations and a palestenain state....reserve units couldnt fill their quotos.

intifada II had reserve units with over 110% capacity, with the israeli left, dissapearing.

check the maps since 47.....the more the arabs try to kill israelis the more they lose....
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #51
60. Civilians, pelsar. Massive number of civilian casualties.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. Except for one problem
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 05:42 AM by eyl
B'Tselem list counts armed Palestinians who are not formally members of the security services as civilians as well.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #63
77. Do they? This is an Israeli human rights organization.
You are saying B'tselem is misleading people?
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. they're using
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 12:38 PM by eyl
a very narrow defintion - technically, you could argue that armed Palestinians are civilians, since they don't belong to a formal military/security organization.

Later in the intifada, B'Tselem started to pay attention to the difference; for example, they, added, to their page detailing "Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli civilians", a disclaimer that the fact a Palestinian was listed there did not necessarily indicate he was not killed in self-defense (I'd give you the link, but I haven't been able to find the detailed lists* ever since B'Tselem reorganized their site).

For that matter, look at the list you yourself posted. Do you think it logical that the IDF killed over 200 civilians in that period, but not one single armed Palestinian who belonged to AAMB, Tanzim, Hamas, or another organiation other than the PA security forces?

*That is, the ones which included names and sometimes circumstances, not the bare numerical lists they have now.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #60
65. their uniforms...
perhaps you can show what the islamic jihad uniform looks like?...i seem to have forgotten....
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. That's not an Intifada -

one or two incidents isn't an 'uprising'.

This is an uprising -

'Israel slides into state of war

Troops use anti-tank missiles and helicopter gunships against rioters as violence spreads and death toll rises to 47

Suzanne Goldenberg in Umm al-Fahm, Galilee
Tuesday October 3, 2000
The Guardian

A state of war engulfed parts of the West Bank and Gaza strip yesterday as the Israeli army unleashed tanks and helicopter gunships against Palestinian rioters.

The resort to Israel's military might defied appeals by world leaders to end the bloodiest violence for four years, and arrives amid deepening suspicions that the prime minister, Ehud Barak, is losing his grip on the situation.

After five days of rioting, in which Palestinian security men joined forces with stone-throwing youths, the toll rose inexorably to 47 dead and more than 1,000 injured.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,376653,00.html

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
37. Exactly!
n/t
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. the articles are interesting.....
as are the different perspectives....and i know we (palestenains and israelis) can take the same event and see opposites...in fact thats a given...

as much as Sabra and Shatila cuts deep in the palestenains.....they seem to forget who actually planned it was doing the killing..that to me is very odd.

However the gaza perspective is simple "more of the same"...their chaos is their chaos. Israel had an influence, in the character of the palestenain society as did the palestenian society have one on israel.....but their lack of control is their own. (as is our reaction of our settlers-but we dont blame the palestenians-nor do you, on their development)

and how gaza is deemed "a trick" as he writes;
which could then be used to advance his military aims, and free his hands to expand settlements, expropriate land in Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank though i know its the palestenian perspective, swallowd by those in the west who hadnt bothered to check into the past of westbank expansion (never stopped before during or after gaza)...in fact the gaza pullout was planned to take up to 3 weeks.....guess the IDF didnt know it was a diversionary tactic.

It maybe the palesteanian perspective of sharon....but it appears to me, that, he also serves as an excuse for their own failures.....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. Both Sharon and Arafat are/were powerful symbols...
Arafat also just as powerfully served as an excuse for Israels failures as what yr claiming Sharon does for the Palestinians. Both of them became bigger than life boogeymen who got blamed for everything by their respective detractors...

Also, what the author said about freeing Sharon's hand to expand settlements is true. The 'trick' is that everyone in the West was (and still is) supposed to be so busy praising Sharon for removing the settlements in Gaza that no attention would be paid to the West Bank and he could carry on the expansion without any pesky demands that he stop...

Violet...

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
52. then the trick didnt work....
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 01:16 AM by pelsar
the gaza withdrawl was a mere 6 days...seems either he miscalcuated (taking away all those settlers, spending vast amounts of money for a mere 6 days of quiet and country trama, seems a bit weak.)

if he wanted 6 days of "non complaints' i'm sure he could have found a cheaper easier way.- maybe invade lebanon, a couple kilometers or something, that would have done it....

no, the real reason, is the palestenain (and many in the world) inability to recognize when a politician changes from a national leader to a statesmen and rises about mere local politics.....and the fact that gaza now forces the palestenains to face up to reality, they now have to create a viable society, and thats not easy

there was no "trick" and its foolish to even think it, but sharon was their "poster israeli politician" and to change that would be impossible. The israeli viewpoint of sharon did change, and i think thats a sign of political maturity (or that could be an exception on our part), i dont think the palestenians have gotten there yet.

mubarik liked sharon, he understood the change.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #52
84. Of course it's worked...
The tactic of oohing and aahing over the disengagement did not have a Use By date of when the actual disengagement was finished. It's been used ever since to divert attention away from the West Bank...

There's no inability to recognise when a politician changes from a national leader to a statesman because Sharon was never a statesman. I think it's unreasonable to expect that the Palestinians should think that a man who was responsible for so much brutality towards them is a statesmen, no more than it would have been to expect Israelis to put Arafat up on a pedestal when he got ill..

I don't think Mubarek 'understanding the change' is really a glowing endorsement for Sharon, btw..

Violet...





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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. its not a divert attention....
it is exactly what it is....giving the palestenans what they've been killing about...a chance a self rule. (if they didnt shoot kassams, kidnap foreigners, etc)...us israelis would look upon it quite differently. If they built a society of law then all the oohing and aahing would be at how 'wonderful they are"..instead of us figuring out how to stop the missles flying over our borders every day....

gaza remains what it is...it may not sit well with all those who have been pressuring israel to leave for the last 30+ years...but israel DID leave, the results make it obvious that that same chaos in E. Jerusalem would mean kassams on the knesset.

i really dont care what the palestenains think of sharon, they are not relevant in that aspect...for the israelis he however made some big changes......he put us israelis in the middle again:

the palestenains should get at state..but now if it means we receive missles everyday and every conceivable response that we have is met with "NO, thats collective punishment"....

thats his immediate legacy.....

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. Sorry, but it's been a very successful diversionary tactic...
Look at Gaza! Look at all the sacrifices Sharon made!! Look at Gaza!! No!! Don't look at the West Bank!!!

And the disengagement was carried out for reasons purely to do with Israel's self-interest and had nothing to do with wanting to give the Palestinians a chance at self rule. And there's been plenty of times since the occupation started when there haven't been missiles or foreigners kidnapped, but I can't see where Israelis have looked at things any differently....

Israel has no intention of ending its illegal annexation of East Jerusalem, and considering the Israeli govt never had any qualms in the past about firing missies into Ramallah, what's the difference if it happens to the Knesset? There's a kind of irony about it...

The Palestinians will get a state and it won't matter what you (that's you in a rhetorical sense, btw) think, because the state is not Israel's to give in the first place...

When a response is one that involves harming Palestinian civilians, then yo'd have to have to explain to me why Israeli lives are so much more valuable that it's not seen to be 'collective punishment'...

Violet...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #89
108. of course its self interest...
all states work in self interest, gaza was purly for israel, the consequence is that the palestenians get a chance to rule themselves....

i believe previous to the gaza pullout, you said it would never happen....well it did, so too will happen in Jersualem....as far as israeli lives being more valuable, i never claim that, but your vague "responses shouldnt hurt civilians"...should be coupled with your "I dont have any suggestions"...at least then its put in the proper light of someone who doesnt want to face the restriction and limitions of reality.

and whos consequence is that israelis should just let themselves be killed.

____________________________________

so i understand that if kassams fall on the knesset and other population areas, you'll be ok with that, weapon that has no proper aiming device and is mainly used for to terrorize populations....and of course any israeli response shall be "you cant do that, you cant defend yourself because the jihadnikim once the stop firing are all civilians and or use civilians as human shields)

actually you'll say "its bad" but israel has no options to defend itself...



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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
39. Sharon was directly responsible for the Sabra and Chatilla massacres.
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 09:02 PM by Wordie
...it is generally agreed that the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), who were occupying Beirut at the time, were responsible because they had sealed off the area and allowed the Phalange into the camps. Since the Phalange had a very well-established record of genocidal violence against Palestinians, whoever made the decision to let the Phalange near the camps was-to all intents and purposes-ensuring the massacres would occur. And the person who made that decision was the Israeli Defense Minister, Ariel Sharon.

...During the meetings that the heads of the Mossad held with Bashir Jemayel, they heard that (his) intention ...was to eliminate the Palestinian problem in Lebanon when he came to power - even if that meant resorting to aberrant methods against the Palestinians in Lebanon...

...Similar remarks were heard from other Phalangist leaders. Furthermore, certain actions of the Phalangists during the war indicated that there had been no fundamental change in their attitude toward different segments of the Lebanese population, such as Druze and Palestinians, whom the Phalangists considered enemies. There were reports of Phalangist massacres of women and children in Druze villages, as well as the liquidation of Palestinians carried out by the intelligence unit of Elie Hobeika ...These reports reinforced the feeling among certain people - and especially among experienced intelligence officers - that in the event that the Phalangists had an opportunity to massacre Palestinians, they would take advantage of it.

...The Phalange Militia had carried out an earlier massacre (August 1976) at the Tel az-Zaatar Refugee Camp (on the eastern outskirts of Beirut)...


http://www.jamesrmaclean.com/archives/archive_LebaneseCW_3.html

Please note: I don't have any information on this particular website. I just found it through google when I searched on "Sabra Chatilla "earlier massacre"". I knew about the earlier Phalangist massacre, at Tal az-Zaatar. And if I knew of it, surely Sharon did too. With that knowledge alone (not to mention the reports he recieved that it was immanent, and the actions/non-actions that he took), it is clear the results could have been predicted. Any claims that Sharon was not directly responsible are therefore indefensible.

Have the Israelis been told a different story, pelsar?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #39
57. massacres?
have you any idea how many killings there were between the phalangist, musims and palestenians?...lots and lots going back 100s of years.

but this again is a real stretch:
The Phalange Militia had carried out an earlier massacre (August 1976) at the Tel az-Zaatar Refugee Camp (on the eastern outskirts of Beirut)....so
because of a masscre years earlier, the IDF just HAD to know they would do it again.

do you know how many villages the phanlgist entered and DID NOT masscre the inhabitants?..according to the above the answer is zero. Their hatred was so intent they must have killed every palestenain everywhere.....except it didnt happen



as far as sealing off the camps....so?....that how armies operate, the entering force is protected..it hardly means the IDF massacred the palestenains. You seem to forget: that was not the phalangist mission, and it was the phalngist who killed.

again can you find any other example in the WHOLE world where the defense minister is found guilty of what an allie did, during a war....take any year, any war.

________________________________________________

us israeli have far better sources, better indepth reporting, far more information than you'll see on the internet, or in your papers we also know people involved, which is the advantage of a small country.

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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. One last try.
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 02:57 AM by Wordie
tel az Zaatar brutal massacre by Phalangists of Palestinians (1976) +

Phalangists leader, Jemayal, is murdered; they become enraged, suspect Palestinians (Sept. 14, 1982)* +

Sharon gives Phalangists entry to the Palestinian camps (Sept. 16, 1982) =

Massacre occurs at the Sabra and Chatilla camps. (September 16, 1982)

Therefore Sharon is responsible. Fin


* Also from the Kahan report:
On September 14, 1982, a very large bomb exploded in the Phalangist offices in Beirut, killing Bashir Jemayel, enraging the Phalangists, and throwing Lebanon into even greater turmoil than had been caused by the Israeli invasion...at the time it was not known whether the bomb was planted by Syrians, rival Lebanese or Palestinians.

...and just for the record, most historians now think it was not the Palestinians who murdered Jemayal.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. please...
I dont mean to be insulting but your knowldege of the internal world of lebanese politics is nill...you shouldnt venture forth opinions of events that you know so little about.....

such a simplistic series of events that took place over 6 years in the middle of a civil war that involved so many sects and personalities and countries: druze, UN personel, US employees, Christians (various sects) muslims, palestenanians,

i wouldnt even know where to begin.....but you can start here:
http://www.answers.com/topic/lebanese-civil-war

and if you can understand who was against who at what time....i'll add some additional factors to confuse you even more.....
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #66
76. understanding...
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 08:26 AM by Wordie
I understand more than you think...I had many close Lebanese friends at the university, and that was during the civil war. However, an intricate knowledge of the workings of Lebanese politics of the time is not required to understand the comments in my previous post.

I'm sorry, pelsar, but as I said earlier, we aren't getting anywhere. To go on with this threatens to damage the attempt at goodwill with which we have lately been trying to discuss things. Let's just realize we aren't going to see eye to eye on this, OK?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #76
87. ok....n/t
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. Why not remember Qibya massacre? Jenin? Nablus? The current destruction
of Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem?
50+ years of brutal murder and dispossession and horror are associated with this man. The very tragic thing is that we can send his brutal policies with him...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #33
53. the jenin massacre?
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 01:21 AM by pelsar
i guess your refering to "Jeningrad".......yes it was a shame that israel, ignored its own protocols for taking a city, in the interest of PR and walked in with "silk gloves on", didnt use artillary, or helicopter gunships or other heavy weapons, it would have saved quite a few israeli lives....

....perhaps to clarify since you seem "out of date" there was no jenin massacre, or since the PR didnt work, guess the IDF should forget the PR and just go ahead with the heavy weapons.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. The war crimes in Jenin were very real.
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 03:07 AM by Tom Joad
It is not helpful to negate a people's real suffering and history, to declare it as "myth".

Testimony of the driver of one of the Cats that destroyed the homes in Jenin:

"For three days, I just demolished non-stop. The whole area. Any house they fired from came down. And to knock it down, I tore down some other houses. were warned by loudspeakers to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no one a chance. I didn't wait. I didn't give just one push, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring it down as fast as possible. I wanted to get to the other houses. To get as many as possible. ...I didn't give a damn about the Palestinians, but I didn't just ruin with no reason. It was all under orders.”

From an interview with a Cat' driver, who under orders of his Israeli military superiors, operated a giant Caterpillar D-9L bulldozer and helped make 4,000 camp residents homeless in Jenin refugee camp, April 2000. http://tomjoad.org/Homes.htm
Talk about being tractored out by the Cats!

See also http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/kurdi_eng.html


The following is from
http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/human_rights_watch_jenin.html#_Toc8014883

To enable tanks and heavy armor to penetrate to the camp, the IDF sent in armored bulldozers to widen the narrow alleys by shearing off the fronts of buildings, in places several meters deep. In the initial days, Palestinian fighters held off the IDF to the west of the camp, while to the east bulldozers penetrated the hilltop district of al-Damaj, overlooking the center of the camp. The IDF infantry managed to enter the northern entrance to the camp, throwing smoke grenades to provide cover as they went from house to house. Although helicopters were present, at that stage they primarily provided air-to-ground support. IDF soldiers "mouseholed" from house to house, knocking large holes in the walls between houses to provide routes of safe passage from to the outer perimeters of the camp to the center. In numerous cases, they used Palestinian civilians and detainees as human shields as they moved from house to house, and, as Human Rights Watch has documented in previous incursions elsewhere in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, forced civilians to perform the most dangerous tasks of entering and checking buildings during house-to-house searches.
....

After the April 9 ambush, the IDF relied heavily on missile strikes from helicopters. It also extensively used armored bulldozers, which allowed the IDF to penetrate districts where previously they had not been able to consolidate control. The change in military strategy arguably helped to defeat the armed Palestinians in the camp, but as described below, the new tactics had an unacceptable impact on the civilian population and infrastructure of the camp.

The IDF continued to use armored bulldozers throughout the operation. On April 10, armored bulldozers were sent to widen an alley in Abu Nasr district, to the west of Hawashin. At this time, the bulldozers were still primarily being used to widen streets. On April 12, civilians in the Matahin area of the camp, located above the main UNRWA school, were likewise warned to leave their homes in advance of their being destroyed by bulldozers. Many heeded the call. Armored bulldozers soon arrived to clear a broad path for the IDF's armored vehicles, leveling many of the homes in their path.

Towards the end of the IDF operation, the fighting and destruction was mostly focused on the central Hawashin district of the camp. The majority of the fighting appears to have subsided by April 10, but isolated pockets of Palestinian militants continued to hold out for some days. The bulldozers appear to have continued razing homes even after most of the fighting had ended. At the end, the bulldozers had done much more than creating paths for the IDF tanks and armored cars in Hawashin district: the entire area, down to the last house, had been leveled.....
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #61
74. the massacre....
i believe you mentioned there was a massacre.....care to elaborate?

____________________________________________________________________

outside of that, after the jenin operation there were less suicide bombers blowing up and killing israelis.....and helicopter strikes saved more israeli soldier lives but keeping them out of the center of palestenain cities

same old lesson to learn, just doesnt sink in: stop trying to kill israelis...we fight back now.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #74
91. The residents of Jenin were trying to killl Israelis??
Those articles Tom posted talked of using civilians as human shields and of bulldozing many homes. Fighting back involves using some aim, because anyone who fights back by attacking civilians is no better than that which they claim they're fighting against....
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #91
97. urban combat....
Edited on Tue Jan-10-06 01:47 PM by pelsar
bulldozing homes in urban combat is actually a very good idea..given the other option of tank fire or artillary fire (please dont try to explain "war crimes" in an urban combat environment....i would have no idea how to answer something like that to someone who has no idea what the environment is like (its not like the movies).

using human shields is a bad thing, it shouldnt be done by the IDF, and is condemmed (sometimes).....and its just as bad when the palesteanisn do it (of which its never condemmed-....or do you have an example where i am wrong here?)

as far as the residents of jenin..yes some were trying to kill israelis...its just hard to identify them as they tend to hide behind the civilians in jenin....but i would guess like the kassams you dont have a suggestion as to how to identify them without involving the civilians their hiding behind....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-06 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #97
99. Don't you see anything wrong with attacking a city like that?
Any country that does what Israel did in Jenin and chooses to launch an attack on a civilian area, is committing a war crime. There's such a callous disregard for the safety of civilians that it's mind-boggling. If the situation was reversed and Palestinians had reacted to attacks on it's citizens by launching an urban combat adventure in Tel Aviv and bulldozing homes, the reaction would be the complete opposite to what it is when Israel does it to the Palestinians...

Give me some specific examples of Palestinians using other Palestinians as human shields, and I'll let you know what I think...

I'm sick of the qassam crap, pelsar, so do us both a favour and give it a rest. I gave not one, but several suggestions that you weren't interested in, so I'm not playing the game anymore.

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-06 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. Yeah,
the response would be resounding silence.

And AFAIR, your suggestion regarding the Qassams was "I don't know what to do".
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #99
101. several suggestions?.....
Edited on Wed Jan-11-06 05:39 AM by pelsar
And AFAIR, your suggestion regarding the Qassams was "I don't know what to do".

some examples of palestenains using palestenains as shields?.......every kassam launched from beit chanon (civilian area) is using those same civilians as shields so the IDF wont attack.

every time the palesteanin shot at us from schools and from behind crowds of protesters they were using those same kids as human shields..do i really have to list every incident when they attack from civilian areas?....that was the standard in gaza

i understand you "sick" of me asking for suggestions for the kassams....well i'm pretty tired of the critisims for every action that israel does without a single specific suggestion of what israel "can do" in the immediate time period outside of nothing, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

in case i missed you post of suggestions please repeat them:
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #101
106. Yeah, go back and read the thread...
I made several suggestions about what NOT to do, and the things that shouldn't be done are things which would result in the deaths of Palestinian civilians. And until someone explains to me why the lives of Palestinian civilians are less valuable than that of Israeli civilians, I'm going to point out what Israel shouldn't do. Anything that doesn't involve harm or death to Palestinian civilians is what Israel should do...

Who are these posters who criticise Israel for every action? I've seen this accusation a few times, but very few people fall into that category. In fact, there's far more that criticise the Palestinians for everything...

Violet...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #106
107. but no suggestions.....
Anything that doesn't involve harm or death to Palestinian civilians is what Israel should do... well thats a very good idea..and in fact the IDF likes to adhere to the same principle...

except the IDF hasnt quite figured out how to descern the differences between jihadnikm who wear civilian clothes and those who dont. In fact that hated checkposts are infact one of the methods.

but if you would like, i can give some real life scenarios and you can help us along by explaining how we can stop the suiicide bombers and those attempting to enter settlements to kill familys, those who shoot at us either bullets or missles without hurting other palestenians.

tell me if your interested and I will be glad to list the scenarios...we'll be dealing with actual options and no "fantasies involving magic"
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. It was a suggestion...
I'm not interested in excuses for why it's acceptable for Palestinian civilians to die. And I've already said I'm not interested in playing this game anymore. When I see you applying the same intensity to demanding suggestions for how Palestinians should react against Israel when they are shot at with bullets or missiles, then I might join in again. Until then, yr on yr own...

Violet...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #109
110. i've got lots of suggestions....
i've no problem with attempting to solve real problems with real solutions... thats the world i live in.....but for those who "suggestions consist of "what NOT to do..and whose only real solution consists of "i dont know"...well those solutions basically are saying:

dont do anything and let yourself be killed, because it more important to avoid collective punishment....hardly a positive solution from my point of view.

and the reason one "cant play" is because i suspect it will put you in to a situation where you'll discover that pat answers like "collective punishment is never acceptable" doesnt work and you'll be forced in to making suggestions that do precisly that....but thats only if you restrict yourself to the limitations of reality.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #106
111. Not good enough
Given the proximity of civilians to the terrorists in Gaza (and the WB) - and espcially the latter's propensity for disguising themselves as civilians and to use them as cover - any Israeli repsonse will carry at least the risk of Palestinian civilian casualties. So your suggestion, in effect, is "do nothing".
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
6.  Sharon's legacy does not include peace
By Paul Reynolds
World Affairs correspondent, BBC News website

Whether Ariel Sharon returns to his post of Israeli prime minister is not known but what is known is that, as things stand, he has left a legacy but has not left a peace settlement.

His political legacy is the withdrawal from Gaza and from parts of the West Bank.

In historical terms, this was a major switch by the man and by the country.

Ariel Sharon had previously championed the settlement movement and had stood with those who believed that Israel's security depended on possession of all the land between the sea and the River Jordan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4583684.stm

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. his legacy...is what the article ignores....
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 02:13 PM by pelsar
its called self rule for the palestenains in gaza....his legacy is for the palestenains for the first time, get a chance to show us israelis that they are capable of having a society that doesnt includes murdering israelis (so far not so good....)

his legacy is for the supporters of the palestenian state is for them to come up with realistic solutions that can be applied to stop those palestenains who insist on killing israelis, without harming the general population (so far on the DU its zero)

His legacy is giving the palestenains responsability for their lives, an aspect that some are beginning to understand

His legacy is showing the "right" in israel that its democracy that is strongest and not messianic judisaism
____________________________

thats what its all about......his past is very "checkered" yet his final years have given the palestenains what few could have given them: a chance at self rule

___________________________
There would need to be another major shift, on either side, to get back to that largely forgotten road map to peace.....almost right...there was a shift, its called self-rule in gaza..if they cant get that right, israel would be have to be out of our collective minds to let them shoot kassams at us from E.Jerusalem or its vicinties.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
13. My wife, my son, and I visited Temple Mount in August 1980
We were accompanied by my wife's cousin (at that time a Professor of Sociology at Hebrew Univ, subsequently a Peace Now candidate for the Knesset), his daughter, and my cousin (at that time a Kernels of Peace volunteer, now a social worker working with young Moms in "mixed" Jewish-Muslim marriages, also a Peace Now candidate for the Knesset). Both sets of cousins are fluent in Arabic.

We came in peace.

An Egyptian Muslim functionary gave us a wonderful tour and narrative. No hostility. Our "tour guide" was very knowledgeable in both Christianity and Judaism (at least in the liturgy).

I am at a loss as to why now a Jewish foot on Temple Mount is a causus belli.

I see a certain level of hypocrisy and artifice - during my last six years in industry both of my cubicle mates (actually adjacent cubes) were Shiia Muslims, and my PhD thesis chair was an Indian Muslim, and my ham radio buddie (we share the AC powered 100 watt transmitter) is also an Indian Muslim.

As one appender says -- "Ain't that grand" or some such in a linky.

Hi! :hi:
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. That's nice.
But, where's the relevance?

Also, who are these "Kernels of Peace" people, I've never heard of them?

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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Israeli Left Wing
You posted
Also, who are these "Kernels of Peace" people, I've never heard of them?
"Kernels of Peace" , "Buds of Peace" "Interns of Peace" etc. were 1970's-1980's era teams of young people, approximately equal number of Muslims and Jews, who lived and worked in the West bank, Gaza, Arab communities in the Galilee, Arab communities in the Negev, and Arab urban areas. Each group of young people provided basic social work (young moms, pre-schoolers, adolescents), and child care services.

Subsequently these young people were workers in the Left and in Peace Groups.

You also asked (I am guessing with respect to our visit to the Temple Mount)
But, where's the relevance?
. The relevance is that every visit to the Temple Mount by Jews need not be a causus belli initiating an intifada.

:hi:
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
70. "Interns of Peace" I've heard of.
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 08:13 AM by Englander
Or rather, "Interns *For* Peace".

--The relevance is that every visit to the Temple Mount by Jews need not be a causus belli initiating an intifada.--

That's not relevance, that's a logical fallacy. So, where's the relevance? I can't see any.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #70
78. Why do some
get so defensive about the big power, petropolitics of Sir Mark Sykes, OBE, VC, for carving up the ME and disenfranchising the Palestinians and the Kurds. That's just the aftermath of World Wars.

Besides, if Sir Neville Chamberlain had opened up his borders (beyond just the Kinder Flight) during the Holocaust - and if the West had just obeyed the International Humanitarian Law of ASYLUM- there would have been no demand for an Israel.

I BLAME His Majesty's government.

Historically based and historically valid :sarcasm:


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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. ~~Whooosh!!~~
(That's the sound of any point going straight over my head.)

:)

But, congrats for the brazillionth mention of Mr S. Don't forget Monsieur P.!

;-)
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Sir Mark was a man of peace
who should have been nominated for a Nobel Prize. Right?
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. here
" I am at a loss as to why now a Jewish foot on Temple Mount is a causus belli."

Why should Sharon's going there have been a match to set off a fire
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. he was the excuse....
sharon became the symbol for the palestenains, the symbol of all palestenian deaths, humiliations, honor loss (being defeated on the battlefield), the occupation, etc......his walking on "holy" ground was excuse enough to enrage the palestenians to justify their attacking israel.

if it wasnt that, it would have been something else....
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #25
49. good points, Pelsar
:hi:
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #49
72. Uh-oh!
I can remember some of the previous occasions where some unfortunate poster had
a "Great Post!" or similar sentiments sent to them!

:scared:
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
71. Isn't that a bit of a prejudiced attitude?
I think it is, it certainly sounds like one to me, do you think that the Occupied have
any legitimate grievances, or is all this resistance stuff just an "excuse"?

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. they've got loads of greivances...
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 08:13 AM by pelsar
and most are probably legit....I just have a slight problem with the way their expressing themselves....they really should try different tactics, the present ones, which a simply an offshoot of the original ones in 48 just dont work to well.....

they really should stop trying to kill me and my family, it would probably help my attitude
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. Gosh, maybe coz it was Sharon and lots of troops?
I think pretending that Sharon was Mr. Joe Average taking a normal trip to the Temple Mount is kind of pointless, considering it was nothing at all like that. In fact, the US and the PA asked the Israeli govt to stop his 'visit' from proceeding. Why do you think they asked?

I've posted the Mitchell Report for you to read before. I'll post it again just in case you didn't get a chance to read it. It will answer all yr questions...

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/rpt/3060.htm

In late September 2000, Israeli, Palestinian, and other officials received reports that Member of the Knesset (now Prime Minister) Ariel Sharon was planning a visit to the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Palestinian and U.S. officials urged then Prime Minister Ehud Barak to prohibit the visit.3 Mr. Barak told us that he believed the visit was intended to be an internal political act directed against him by a political opponent, and he declined to prohibit it.

Mr. Sharon made the visit on September 28 accompanied by over 1,000 Israeli police officers. Although Israelis viewed the visit in an internal political context, Palestinians saw it as highly provocative to them. On the following day, in the same place, a large number of unarmed Palestinian demonstrators and a large Israeli police contingent confronted each other. According to the U.S. Department of State, "Palestinians held large demonstrations and threw stones at police in the vicinity of the Western Wall. Police used rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition to disperse the demonstrators, killing 4 persons and injuring about 200."4 According to the GOI, 14 Israeli policemen were injured.5

Similar demonstrations took place over the following several days.6 Thus began what has become known as the "Al-Aqsa Intifada" (Al-Aqsa being a mosque at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount).


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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #38
48. From your link:The Sharon visit did not cause the "Al-Aqsa Intifada
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 12:30 AM by barb162
This is but one of many analyses (although a pretty good one)
about the causes of that intifada.


BTW, who is pretending Sharon is an average Joe again?

To put the situation in a more normal light, if Arafat or one of his prominent aides or member of the Palestinian government had visited a well-known synagogue, do you suppose the Jews would have had an uprising? At that time, Sharon was a Knesset member, not PM.

"The Sharon visit did not cause the "Al-Aqsa Intifada" (I need to put that in quotes as that sentence with quotes didn't fit in the subject)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #48
62. I haven't claimed the visit caused it..
His visit was the spark that ignited the Intifada, and I've said that repeatedly...

Why try and put a situation that wasn't a normal situation in a 'normal light'? This was not an individual visiting the Temple Mount - it was a very highly publicised move by a very high profile politician who was accompanied by hordes of troops. Why do you think the US govt and the PA asked Barak to bar Sharon from doing it?

You ask who is pretending that Sharon was an average Joe again when it comes to the Temple Mount visit? It'd be anyone trying to act as though it was a normal visit by a normal individual...

Violet...
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
73. Here's an article that, hopefully, sheds some light -
'From butcher to 'Lion' to Prime Minister of Israel

Fifty years ago Ariel Sharon terrorised a Palestinian village. Now he will lead Israel. In Qibya Jason Burke unravels his past

Sunday February 4, 2001
The Observer

At about eight o'clock on a warm autumn evening Ahmed al-Badoui was standing guard in a grove of olive trees on a rocky slope just beneath his village of Qibya. It was dusk and people were settling down for the night. Moonlight picked out the jagged limestone crags typical of the rolling hills and valleys north of Jerusalem. The city itself was only about 10 miles away but could not be seen. The first warning came when al-Badoui saw a dark shape flicker across the rocks at the edge of the olive field.

At first, he thought it was someone trying to steal olives. He gripped his wooden cudgel tightly and shouted a challenge. His answer came in a hail of bullets. One smashed into his wrist, another into his side. The impact of the heavy rounds knocked 22-year-old al-Badoui, a strapping 6ft farmer, into the dusty earth.

As he staggered to his feet he screamed to wake his village: 'The Jews are coming, the Jews are coming.'

It was mid-October 1953. Within eight hours al-Badoui's home was rubble. By dawn the next morning Israeli special forces would have dynamited much of the village and killed 69 people. Their leader was Ariel Sharon, the man who, unless the polls are outrageously inaccurate, seems certain to be Israel's Prime Minister by the middle of this week.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,433318,00.html

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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. Coastie, were you accompanied by hundreds of Israeli soldiers?
Were you well-known for committing massacres against Palestinian people? That might make the difference between being welcomed as a guest and being seen as a threat and a provocation.

As you know, Palestinians are very well known for welcoming guests, it does matter where you are from or what your religion is. However, no one on this earth would welcome those who want to take their homes.



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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Two responses - and a half response.
1. No. I was an unarmed civilian with two peaceniks. BUT, ACCORDING TO SOME I AM A NEOCON, RACIST, LIKUDNIK, GOP, JABOTINSKYITE because:
    * I support the existence of Israel in the context of a two state solution,
    * I support the Law of Return (as a consequence of the non-observance of the IHL doctrine of "Asylum" in the 1930's),
    * I recognize the right of Palestinians to financial reparations,
    * I contribute to Mogen Dovid Adom and Technion, and
    * I close my Pesach Seders with the militant, jingoist, racist "Hashanh B'Yerushalyim"


2. I am very familiar with the one-on-one hospitality of the Muslim people.
    * For the last six years (before retiring the first time), the people on one or both sides of me were Muslims.
    * My endocrinologist is Muslim.
    * Our veterinarian is Muslim.
    * My ham radio buddy (co-owners of a 100 watt xmitter) is Muslim.
    * My PhD thesis adviser was Muslim.
    * I have switched my AM coffee break from Starbucks to a Palestinian "Hallal" deli.
    * I enjoyed the hospitality of my cousin's land lady (a Palestinian woman) in Israel.


3. - I was referring to a Red Cross flood shelter in Alameda County (assumed you live in Alameda County - you would most definitely been welcome in the context of an evacuation order) -- after the "buzz" from my medication kicked in.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I was talking about why Sharon's action was seen as a provocation.
And your visit was not.

You seemed to not understand why a "Jewish foot" at one of the holiest muslim sites was seen as a provocation. You seem to be saying it was only because Sharon was Jewish. My point is it was not the ethnicity of the person, but the context of Sharon's actions, and his history as a murderer. He knew he was making a provocation.

You being a nice guy really has nothing to do with Sharon's actions, US policy, Israel policy, Palestinian policy, or the subject of these forums, but thanks for sharing.

It might help show the point though, that you probably know yourself, if you treat people decently, you get treated decently in return. Unfortunately, few Israeli leaders have caught on.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Wrong
You posted
Unfortunately, few Israeli leaders have caught on.
The leaders of the Progressive and Left element have caught on - and they are quoted regularly here. I am talking about people like Shulamit Aloni -- and even Berkeleyite Rabbi Michael Lerner's Israeli counterparts. However, too many regular I/P appenders too cavalierly dismiss them.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I know there are many Israeli groups working for justice.
I mentioned B'tsalem. Gush Shalom. Anarchists against the Wall

I am not very familier with Shulamit Aloni, but she is not a "leader", in the sense neither she, or her party, has come close to leading Israeli society. "She once was appointed Minster of Education in the government of the late Yitzchak Rabin. After a year, due to her outspokenness (i am getting this from http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/PEOPLE/BIOS/aloni.html , so it is there opinion of what outspokenness means) against the ultra-orthodox partners in the Rabin government, Aloni was forced to resign her position and was moved over to serve as Mister of Communications, Science and Culture. So you see where even very modest criticism of the status quo will get you within Isreali society.

Jessie Jackson has been appointed to this and that, and many folks look up to him, but he is not a US leader in the same sense Clinton, Bush, or Kerry are US leaders.

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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I think you under rate the forces of the Progressive Left
be they Gene McCarthy or George McGovern or Ron Dellums or Jesse Jackson or John Conyers or Cecil Williams or Shulamit Aloni or Felicia Langer.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #44
56. i shall withhold my initial reaction.....
if you treat people decently, you get treated decently in return.


yea we noticed that in 48, and 67...and all the terrorists acts inbetween in our apartments, settlements, schools, hotels, busses

guess we just werent nice enough....so it was decided to wipe us off the map.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #56
83. Israel treated the Palestinians decently in 48 and 67???
Pelsar, the Palestinians were not treated decently by Israel at all...

Violet...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. not being "nice"
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 05:49 PM by pelsar
israel faced two wars where the goal was its anniliation - who werent we nice enough to that they wanted us "off the map?"....the , egyptians, syrians, iraqis, jordanians?...the palestenians might have a point..but then they weren't very nice to us either...so do we get to anniliate them?

and for that matter, what did we do to iran that they too want us "off the map"

i think theres a fallacy to the "be nice, and they'll be nice back theory......
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. Israel wasn't nice to the Palestinians...
There's the little matter of massacres and ethnic cleansing. Israel treated the Palestinians with brutality, and there is no justification for it.

btw, Jordan did not have the goal of annihilating Israel in the war of 48 - it was the Palestinian state that Israel and Jordan colluded to annihilate before it had even taken it's first gasp, and they succeeded...

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. Don't forget
Arab ethnic cleansing and massacres against Jews in that same war.

And - even according to Shlaim (The Iron Wall) - by the time the war actually started, there was no collusion between Jordan and Israel - Jordan was in line with the rest of the Arab countries trying to destroy Israel.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. That doesn't make what Israel did okay....
Whereabouts in the Iron Wall does Shlaim make that claim? If that was the case, why was it the areas allocated for the Arab state that were invaded, and not Israel?

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. ..`
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 11:28 AM by eyl
The Iron Wall (2000) p. 32

On 11 May, Golda Meir, disguised as an Arab women, made the dangerous trip to Amman in a last-ditch effort to salvage the agreement she had reached with the king at their meeting six months earlier....She suggested that instead of Abdullah's new offer* they should adhere to their original plan for the partition of Palestine. Abdullah did not deny that they had an agreement, but he explained that the situation had changed and that he was now unable to stand against the current for military intervention in Palestine. Mrs. Meir warned the king that the Jews had dramatically increased their military strength in recent months, and that, while willing to respect the UN borders in the event of peaceful partition, they would fight everywhere and with all their force in the case of war. The king urged her to think again about his offer and to contact him anytime before May 15.



Note 2 things:

1) Jewish-controlled Jerusalem was also under intensive Jordainian attack

2) By my count, 13 Jewish communities were destroyed during the war. 9 of those (including the Jewish Quarter) were destroyed by the Jordanians, often working with Palestinian irregulars. If there had been collusion as youu suggest, surely the defenders would have been evacuated ahead of time? Or are you maintaining that Israel sacrificed the defenders? To what aim?

*To cede control of all of Mandatory Palestine to Jordan, with Jews enjoying local autonomy.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. Take a look at page 39
'The special relationship between Israel and King Abdullah was thus a major factor in determining the course and outcome of the first Arab-Israeli war. This factor is largely ignored in Zionist historiography, because it does not sit easily with the heroic version of the war in which little Israel stands alone against the entire Arab world. Abdullah's meetings with Golda Meir were common knowledge in Israel long before the release of the official documents. The usual argument against Abdullah is that when the moment of truth came, he went back on their agreement and joined in the all-out Arab effort to destroy the newly born Jewish state. A closer analysis of the 1948 war, however, reveals that Abdullah remained remarkably loyal to his original understanding with Golda Meir.'

and this from page 38

'In the second half of the war, the special relationship between the Zionists and King Abdullah slowly began to reassert itself. In the summer of 1948 their armies came to blows, but even at the height of the war the two countries remained, in Uri Bar-Joseph's apt phrase, "the best of enemies." Throughout the war King Abdullah continued to pursue limited objectives and made no attempt to encroach on Jewish state territory'

Violet...

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. east jerusalem..
doesnt count?
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #94
96. Saw that
but the original agreement was that their would be no fighting between Israeli and Jordanian forces. You (and Shlaim) have yet to explain how maintaining that agreement involved the forcible elimination of every Jewish community in the area. Furthermore, you're still ignoring East and West Jerusalem and their environs - which were not supposed to be part of the Palestinian state under the partition plan.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-06 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. The original agreement was about attacking the new Arab state...
The original agreement, which was not a formal committment, had Abdullah getting the support of the new Jewish state (though there was no promise of any active support) for his plans to invade and annexe the Arab areas of Palestine, as long as Abdullah didn't interfere with the establishment of the Jewish state.

So, which bits allocated to the Jewish state did the Jordanian forces invade and how many Jewish communities in those areas did they attack?

And Jerusalem wasn't part of the agreement, as it wasn't supposed to be part of the Jewish state under the partition plan...

Violet...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-06 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #98
102. You noted upthread
that the Jordanian forces limited their attacks to areas intended to the Arab state. As I've pointed out, they also carried out attacks against Jewish targets in the international-designated area. AFAIK* Jordan did not attack targets in the terrotiroy designated for the Jewish state - but that's not the point I was making. What I was saying was that if their was the collusion you suggest occurred (or if Jordan was "the most gentlemanly of opponents", as Shlaim put it), the communities in the area would have been evacuated - and the Jewish communities in the international zone would note have been destroyed.


*I should note that I've never found a comprehensive list of Jewish communities destroyed in the war - what I have I pieced together from multiple sources - so it may well be that more than the 13 I mentioned above were destroyed.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
79. OPEN INVITATION TO ALL DUers ON I/P
Edited on Sat Jan-07-06 11:53 AM by Coastie for Truth
THE PALO ALTO CHAPTER OF THE AMERICAN RED CROSS AND STANFORD UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL SPONSOR AN APPROXIMATELY MONTHLY SERIES OF SEMINARS (OPEN TO THE PUBLIC) ON INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW. ABOUT 3 HOURS LONG AT EITHER TRESSIDER OR THE LAW SCHOOL.

I WILL POST THE ANNOUNCEMENTS - WHEN I GET THEM -- AND ANY DUer THAT RSVP'S TO BOTH THE PALO ALTO RED CROSS AND TO ME - I'LL SPRING FOR LUNCH AT EITHER "MACARTHUR PARK" (ACROSS EL CAMINO REAL FROM STANFORD'S GALVEZ GATE AT THE CALTRAIN COMMUTER RAIL STATION) OR "TRESSIDER" (THE STANFORD STUDENT CENTER - ACROSS TRESSIDER PARKING LOT FROM THE LAW SCHOOL).

I LOOK FORWARD TO MEETING THOSE OF YOU IN THE BAY AREA.
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occuserpens Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-06 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
103. If this is not absolutism then what is?
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. ???
Is there more of the article somewhere? It seems to be missing a point
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occuserpens Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. This is a comment
on 2 JPost articles, I give the links.
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