Jewish Settlers Shed No Tears for Father of Their Movement

[Scurrilous]

Feeling betrayed by Sharon over the pullout from Gaza, many view his illness as a welcome political development. Some even express glee.

<snip>

"The stony hills of the West Bank are dotted and crossed with Jewish settlements, asphalt roads connecting them and billboards advertising real estate deals: "A quarter-acre and a house for under $90,000!"

This is the land that Ariel Sharon claimed for Israel. As father of the settler movement, he encouraged tens of thousands of Jews to move into the remote hilltop outposts and well-manicured towns that the government built for them. Sharon saw the settlements as vital to the security of the Jewish state.

Yet many settlers believe the prime minister betrayed their cause when he pulled 8,500 Israelis from the Gaza Strip last year after a 38-year occupation, and today they watch his failing health with a mixture of anticipation and, in a few cases, glee.

These settlers, their considerable influence abruptly diminished under Sharon, now sense a new opening. If the prime minister's program of ceding chunks of territory to the Palestinians stalls, as is a real possibility, they see a brighter future for their hold on land they consider to be a biblical birthright."

more

[sopmod]

1. Sharon Was The Only Hope For Peace :(

As weird as it sounds Ariel Sharon was the only leader on either side (Israeli or Palestinian) to make a serious attempt at making peace by giving up Gaza and alienating 1/3 of his former constituency in the process.

The Palestinians are too stupid to realize that the passing of Ariel Sharon will probably mean the end of any hope for a 2 state solution and the next guy who gets in there(unless it's another centrist Kadima candidate)will probably roll back into Gaza with tanks and soldiers the next time the Palestinians pull another Katyusha Rocket attack on an Israeli kindergarten or blow up another shopping mall.

I didn't like Sharon so much as I saw him make HUGE sacrifices for the sake of peace and now he's a vegetable :(

[nine23]

4. RE: "The Palestinians are too stupid to realize..."

Exactly WHAT the fuck are you talking about?

[sopmod]

5. There's celebrating in the street that Sharon is on his death bed(ie they

There's celebrating in the street that Sharon is on his death bed,their leaders are saying that "finally the Beast of Shattilla gets what he deserves" and they are so amped up that they don't realize he was the only man in Israel who actually did anything to move Israel towards returning the Occupied Territories and finally compromising to a 2 state solution(ie they are stupid)

The next guy in power will be some "Hawk Likudnik" that will use the first Rocket,mortar or suicide bomber attack perpetrated by AMB,PFLP or (insert random Palestinian terrorist group here)to roll in with tanks,take back Gaza and tell the PA to "get stuffed".

Sharon has been minimizing and ignoring terrorist attacks and retracted the "Scorched Earth" policy formerly held by the IDF in regards to pullouts from occupied areas and now he'll be dead or no better than a vegetable.

[LiberalVoice]

8. The article is about Jewish settlers who cant wait for him to die.

And I think one thing your missing in that argument of yours is that if Sharon really was the only hope for peace between Israel aand Palestine then I would assume BOTH SIDES would be stupid. Funny how that works.

[sopmod]

14. There's plenty of stupid to go around!!

That would be true except for the fact that the settlers who are celebrating Sharon's passing are a marginalized minority while in the "Palestinian Street" there are PFLP,PLO,PFP leaders making huge asses of themselves by making negative comments about Sharon's illness/impending demise.Many of these splinter group leaders could be the future PMs of an independent Palestine but can't seem to keep their anger,ideology or mouths in check long enough to even "Play the Part" and that is a real shame.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. Don't forget....

"During a visit to families of people killed or taken prisoner during the intifada, Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar was asked if the atmosphere were ripe for Hamas to form a government that wouldn't deal with Israel, Hamas reported on its Web site.

"Yes. We are running for the Legislative Council to put an end to the vestiges of Oslo," Zahar said, referring to the Oslo Accords."

source

(emphasis added)

[Violet_Crumble]

43. It was exactly the same when Arafat was dying...

The glee in Israel was palpable. So yeah, plenty of stupid to go around and it was the same just over a year ago....

Violet...

[eyl]

44. Wrong

Barring some of the settlements, there waqsn't anything even resembling street parties or "palpable glee" in the public when Arafat died.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. 'Israel's death festival'

'All these memories came back to me as Yasser Arafat lay on his deathbed, unaware of the glee expressed by most Israelis. The Israeli government announced, as soon as he was flown to Paris, that he would not be allowed to be buried in Jerusalem. Inbal Gavrieli, member of the Knesset, shouted at Ahmad Tibi, an Arab member of the Knesset, that Arafat was "a dog". Many Israeli politicians followed suit with insults directed at the dying Palestinian leader. Israeli comedians, who nowadays shy away from political satire directed at their own leaders, have been mocking Arafat with the most degrading impersonations. A festive atmosphere has taken over the country.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,1349616,00.html

[julianer]

53. It's only the Palestinians

who have ideology?

You are obviously pretty uninformed about the whole issue. Why not go away and read a bit first, preferably not just more Zionist propaganda.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

93. HMMMMMMM.

From the Wiki article:

"Zionism is a political movement and an ideology that supports a Jewish homeland in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed at various times in history. While Zionism is based heavily upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in late 19th century Europe.

The Zionist movement acquired British and League of Nations sponsorship after World War I, resulting in the creation of the British Mandate of Palestine, which specifically called for "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home." After an often tumultuous Mandate period, and after the Holocaust had destroyed Jewish society in Europe, the Zionist movement culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

Since the founding of the State of Israel, the term Zionism has come generally to mean support for Israel. However, a variety of different, and sometimes competing, ideologies that support Israel fit under the general category of Zionism, such as Religious Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, and Labour Zionism. Thus, the term is also sometimes used to refer specifically to the programs of these ideologies, such as efforts to encourage Jewish immigration to Israel. The term Zionism is also sometimes used retroactively to describe the millennia-old Biblical connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel, which existed long before the birth of the modern Zionist movement."

snip

This sentence is particularly revealing:

"The label Zionist is also used improperly as a euphemism for Jews in general by those wishing to white-wash anti-Semitism (as in the Polish anti-Zionist campaign)."

[Jim Sagle]

98. Luckily no one here in the good old US of A would ever engage in such

rhetorical dishonesty. :D

[Coastie for Truth]

99. Not Just Polish, and not just RWers.

"The label Zionist is also used improperly as a euphemism for Jews in general by those wishing to white-wash anti-Semitism (as in the Polish anti-Zionist campaign)."

[Behind the Aegis]

94. from that link...

Since the founding of the State of Israel, the term Zionism has come generally to mean support for Israel. However, a variety of different, and sometimes competing, ideologies that support Israel fit under the general category of Zionism, such as Religious Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, and Labour Zionism. Thus, the term is also sometimes used to refer specifically to the programs of these ideologies, such as efforts to encourage Jewish immigration to Israel. The term Zionism is also sometimes used retroactively to describe the millennia-old Biblical connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel, which existed long before the birth of the modern Zionist movement. The label Zionist is also used improperly as a euphemism for Jews in general by those wishing to white-wash anti-Semitism (as in the Polish anti-Zionist campaign).

[Poll_Blind]

97. You can get away with slandering the Palestinian people as a whole...

..., but only here. They dare not show their black-hearted sentiments in any other forum.

PB

[Englander]

100. Only in the basement. n/t

[Wetzelbill]

6. probably the biggest obstacle to peace

Sharon sacrificed a place nobody really wanted all that much to entrench settlements like Gush Etzion deep into the West Bank, while also building a Wall that goes into the WB too. He was practical in going for the big score, so what if he alienated the craziest of the crazies while doing so? He's going for the West Bank endgame and he's done a pretty good job of it.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. So, he should have 'kept' Gaza?

[Wetzelbill]

9. not necessarily no

but he gave up one so he wouldn't have to make sacrifices for the other. Pretty good move for him actually. Practical from a Zionist perspective.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. And yet...

...negotions are still on-going. It wasn't a "done deal." Why does everything an Israeli politician do have to be a ploy, but others, well, that's just hunky-dory? Almost sounds like the shylock defense.

[Wetzelbill]

12. there is no hunky-dory in this situation

both sides never miss an opportunity to blow a good chance at peace. Never said I was judging Sharon. I disagree with him, but, you know that's just my analysis and I am a serious student of the Arabic-Israeli conflict. However, if you think that building the Wall and entrenching the major settlements is an ongoing issue then you're wrong. That's a done deal, especially as far as Sharon was concerned. Has been for awhile.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. I only see opinion on your part.

For the negotiations to continue, must the WB also be Judenreined? Cannot the settlements be a part of the negotiations? Or is the only true Palestine to be free of Jews?

On edit: spell check should not allow religions and nationalities to be un-capitalized.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. All I have is my opinion.

However, if Gaza is any indication, Palestine will be much like Saudi Arabia and a few other nations...Jew-free.

On edit: I can't PM you because you are new, but rules in I/P are more strict than the board in general, including "Do not embed graphics or photographs of any kind into your messages. Maps or statistical graphs are okay." special I/P rules You may want to delete your "pic" or your entire post stands to be deleted.

[Colorado Blue]

24. Must the West Bank be Judenrein? I think that's a good

question.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

32. I think that there has been a great deal of bitterness over the

years, which has inflamed anger and increased religious and ethnic hatred.

Your point about Mein Kampf is well taken. It's a very serious problem and not a new one.

This kind of poison came in from the West. Combined with the obvious problems created by war, it makes the creation of a multicultural society, mirroring Israel, difficult to envision in a future Palestinian state. Yet, I believe that would be the ideal situation and would make the sharing of East Jerusalem both possible and desirable. It would also enhance the security of Muslims, Christians and Jews alike, as each would be interwoven with and interdependent upon the other.

I agree as well with your observation about the "nationalization" of personal tragedy. Regular people must somehow get beyond this and truly see each other, that we are all brothers.

I don't know how to make that happen. I wish I did.

[julianer]

55. Can you give me a link for the claim

that Mein Kampf is now the second most popular Arab language book? I've seen similar claims recently but I've not seen them verified yet.

[Darranar]

34. How many Jews would contentedly remain under Palestinian sovereignty?

Much of the settlement system is artificial anyway, because it is heavily subsidized by Israel, and to a very large degree rests on Israeli power.

Bring Israeli power out of the equation, and replace that with the Palestinian capability to defend themselves against armed settler gangs, and the system would collapse.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Dismantling settlements does not = 'Judenrein'...

What dismantling the settlements equals is 'Israelioccupationrein'.

Nowhere in post #12 (which is what started off this chorus of 'Judenrein' posts) does it talk about anything but Israel and the occupation, so it appears that there's some confusion at play and some folk think that ending the occupation and dismantling the settlements in the West Bank equals a 'Judenrein' West Bank, and that's conflating the terms 'Israeli' and 'Jew'...

Violet...

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[julianer]

54. Which negotiations are you talking about?

It is Israel that has a policy of maintaining a Jewish majority for racist reasons:

'Conference to be held on achieving Jewish majority in Acre'

A conference on finding ways to achieve a permanent Jewish majority in Acre is to be held on Sunday in the northern Jewish-Arab city. The convention, the first of its kind, was initiated by the New Forum for Strengthening the Jewish community in Acre, lead by council member Muli Cohen, a member of Mayor Shimon Lankri's faction in the city council.

Over the weekend, Cohen told a local newspaper that Acre has the right to exist as a mixed city only if it has a permanent Jewish majority. "The real solution is to establish appropriate institutions so that the city would be able to receive nationalist ultra-Orthodox families," he told the Zafon1 newspaper.

The Acre municipality said in response that "the mayor supports any activity that may advance the city and bring in strong populations to advance it."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/667581.html

You have previously ridiculed the idea that Israel is attempting to create a Jewish majority by encouraging immigration. Can you please comment now?

[sopmod]

58. Israel is indeed trying to create a Jewish majority ..

This is no secret,anyone who denies that Jews are encouraged to settle in areas where there are closely matched Jewish/Muslim populations so that they can claim democratic majority and therefor primacy over that area.

This is a legitimate practice that has been used in recent times by Hispanics in certain voting districts in the border states of the USA and by Palestinians themselves once many of them who's families had fled a generation earlier were allowed by the Israeli government to repatriate to their original areas.Instead they decided to consolidate their population in certain contested areas so that they could achieve a majority.Their presence in those areas constitutes a legitimate majority and they have the right to democratically dispose of those areas as they wish but by the same logic the Jews have the same right to any area they can constitute a majority in in much the same way that Hispanics have the right to demand Bilingual education,Hispanic elected officials and culturally sensitive law enforcement in areas of the USA where they constitute a majority.


If this is racist then the Islamic countries of the world wrote the playbook(ask the Maronites in Lebanon).

The population and situation since those territories were pacified and then occupied has changed so radically that there is no way to enforce the borders from a generation ago anymore than the entire USA could be given back to Native American tribes or Mexico could be given back to Indigenous Native Mexicans.

Generations of people(Jewish and Palestinian)have lived and died,borne offspring invested,toiled and experienced life in places where they are living Right Now and the only solution to stop belligerence is to use the UN/NGO plans to make determinations based on who constitutes a majority in each individual case and then divide these populations permanently.A democratic,permanent,objectively supervised separation of two groups that have too many reasons to hate each other and are not far sighted enough to find peace on their own.

Democracy require a majority vote and the shifting of populations is key to proper representation on both sides so making this some kind of lop sided Jew Bashing operation will put anyone who condones it squarely in the same company as the Bush Bunch,Edie Amin or any other group that tries to pervert democracy for their own agenda.

[julianer]

68. This has been denied by zionist supporters here

which is why I've raised it.

It is certainly not acceptable to base public policy on race. If you think it is then you are simply a racist. What would you say if your particular 'race' was being discriminated against?

[sopmod]

11. Not quite so cut and dried

He wasn't going back to pre-occupation borders but he was indeed ready to give back most of the W. Bank using a UN chartered population/land area division scheme.Of course he was trying to get as many choice sparsely occupied areas of the W. Bank settled with enough Israelis to meet the UN guidelines for a majority but the end result would be 85-95% of the W. Bank returning to Palestinian hands over the next 2 years.That's why he was encouraging settlers to move into certain areas and claim them because he was on a timeline to show everyone how "committed to peace" he was by handing over Gaza and the W. Bank.

Of course this might have been a ruse to let the Palestinians humiliate themselves by giving them "too much too fast" without any funding or government infrastructure to manage these areas so the world could watch them implode(like what's going on in Gaza right now)but the end result would be an end to direct occupation and a fighting chance for a free,democratic Palestinian state.

[pelsar]

13. 'too much too fast...

this might have been a ruse to let the Palestinians humiliate themselves by giving them "too much too fast" without any funding or government infrastructure to manage these areas so the world could watch them implode

got it...so your against the giving back of the westbank, because if they can barely handle gaza giving them more would only make matters worse...did i get that right?

[sopmod]

17. Are you High? An independent Palestine MUST have these territories returne

Absolutely Not!!

The world community should step in and help the Palestinians so that this doesn't happen but they are not.The Palestinians should get Gaza and the W. Bank tonight but they should also be given aid and advisers to help them re-integrate these areas into the state.

The fact that Gaza is imploding now is a scathing indictment of their wealthy neighbors and impotent leadership.The international community should do everything in it's power to help them restore order and sustain quality of life for their citizens!!

The fact that the quality of life for occupied Gaza was better than for a free Gaza is pathetic and sad :(

[Wordie]

22. True. The world community, including the US, should be doing more

to help them.

[pelsar]

23. Reality check..... this is confusing....

first you say that israel giving back gaza was a ruse because it was too much too fast, then you say israel should give back the west bank tonight (thats not too much too fast?)....time for some reality...and to see if you can straighten out your opinion based on the reality on the ground and not some fantasy.....


First
the world community IS NOT helping the palestenians make a viable society now...and its debatable if even the palestenains would take their help on the ground.....

Followers of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades ordered international observers overseeing this month's Palestinian election to leave the Jenin

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060107/wl_mideast_afp/mideastpalestinianvote

_________________________________________________________________

so now that we have that straigtened out...let us return to your original statement:
Of course this might have been a ruse to let the Palestinians humiliate themselves by giving them "too much too fast"

so i am confused...the reality is, that the intl community either wont or cant help the palestenains at this point, so do you suggest that israel return the west bank tonight...and (as you put it) humiliate the palestenains again? or that israeli SHOULD NOT return the westbank?

are you for or against lowering the security of the palestenians "tonight"?....tough choice, can you make it?

some of us deal with reality, where actions have real consequences...so which is it? israel return or not return the westbank tonight? and the intl advisors are not on the way, in fact in gaza they are leaving....

so which is it?

[sopmod]

28. Loss of stability is one of the birth pangs of democracy

The quicker the Israelis divest themselves of any legitimate excuse for belligerence from Palestinians the quicker the Palestinians can start focusing on building their own society rather than destroying Israeli society.

A loss of stability in the Gaza and the W. Bank would be a small price to pay to finally have the question of Palestinian Sovereignty resolved!!

It is incumbent upon world leadership to not let the Palestinians suffer merely because of a lack of resources.

[pelsar]

30. birthing pangs

....those birthing pangs by no means guarantee a democracy....they can very well lead to a facist theorcracy as in iran....

[eyl]

35. A small price

for who?

[Violet_Crumble]

40. The Palestinians, obviously...

n/t

[eyl]

45. Except that the're not the only ones

who will pay

[Violet_Crumble]

48. Then why were you asking who would have to pay?

If you already thought you knew the answer?

[eyl]

50. it's called a rhetorical question n/t

[julianer]

56. Well you are blaming the victims

which is never a pleasant sight.

The conditions in Gaza are not happening in isolation, for heaven's sake. To me this is sickening propaganda - Israel spends years destroying the infrastructure of the PA, including its police stations, and then complains about a lack of law and order in the land it has destroyed, because the authority it has undermined is not strong enough.

[sopmod]

60. Israel destroyed infrastructure?Israel built most of it!

You are either very taken in by "propaganda" or are very young and naive.

Almost every bit of infrastructure(Water Treatment,Electricity,Roads,Sewers,telecommunications,civic buildings,industrial construction)the PA uses was built and paid for by the Israelis back in the "Good Old Days" when they were just hoping they could use them for cheap labor!


I have personally watched this situation deteriorate since the 1980's when 1/3 of all of the businesses I patronized were Palestinian owned and all of the Palestinians I knew wanted a good paying job with an Israeli company.

The PAs biggest problem is that their "leadership" "cut off their nose to spite their face" when Arafat came back and the Palestinian business owners enmasse lost their entire Jewish customer base,Higher paid professionals and skilled laborers lost their ability to freely go into Israel to work for Israeli companies who were paying the highest wages a Palestinian could make in the Middle East and were isolated even further by radicals within the PA who would penalize any Palestinian who was trying to do business with Jews by MURDERING THEM and leaving a nasty letter staked to their chest with a knife!

I was there,I saw it with my own eyes,places I used to go clubbing 20 years are on the other side of a fence to keep bombers out of Israel!! Restaurants I used to eat at are deserted and if I were to go across the checkpoint and try to spend money I would get mugged,killed or beaten!!

Palestinians have suffered more because of economic isolation from Israel than from any other single factor and we all know that poverty leads to desperation.Only desperation could cause people to throw their lives away in acts of suicidal terrorism and pointless belligerence.

Israel too has suffered economically due to this conflict,for the first time ever I saw homeless people in Israel and saw almost no tourists the last time I was there which makes up for a large part of the lower and middle income jobs in that country.They can't be bullied into doing the right thing but maybe they can be convinced that it is in their best interest to completely end their relationship with the Palestinians by giving back Gaza and the W.Bank and thereby legitimately removing any need to deal with them except as a belligerent but autonomous nation that sits on their border.

When those territories were originally taken Israel did not have the military capacity to defend itself from from a Jordanian sneak attack carried out from such a close proximity but now they could easily do so.Their reasons for taking those areas are now obsolete and I think Sharon finally woke up to that fact and was ready to "wash his hands" of the whole sordid affair but now we may never know.

[julianer]

69. You were there yet you never noticed

the bombings of the PA police?

My point was that zionists always ignore any role Israel has played in destroying the infrastructure of the PA in Gaza. If you were really there you should know about this. If you do know about it but are not bothering to include it as a reason for the disorder in Gaza, you are being disingenuous.

[pelsar]

73. what bombing of the PA police in GAZA?

care to elaborate when the last bombing of a PA police station in GAZA took place....us zionists are far more aware of whats going on in our backyard then someone who neither reads hebrew/arabic and gets the news from a few english newspapers and or TV news bits.....

the disorder in gaza is not because of israel, you should try reading and listening to what the palestenains have to say "why they have chaos" (unless those bits of news dont get that far north)....many understand that this is something they did to themselves..but then they only live in gaza, what do they know.

[Englander]

76. This one -

Or rather, these;

'Friday, 25 January, 2002, 23:46 GMT
Israeli jets hit Palestinian targets

Israeli warplanes have attacked targets in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, hours after a Palestinian suicide bomber killed himself and wounded at least 14 bystanders in Tel Aviv.

In an apparent reprisal for the suicide bombing, Israel sent F-16 jets to bomb Palestinian security targets in Gaza City and the town of Tulkarm. At least one person was wounded.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1783175.stm

_____________________


'Sunday, 16 December, 2001
Gaza buildings hit by Israeli strikes

Two Israeli helicopters have fired missiles at a Palestinian police station and a security office in the northern Gaza Strip.

The air strike on the Jabalia refugee camp came just hours after Israeli tanks pulled out of the nearby town of Beit Hanoun. Palestinian security officials said the two buildings were badly damaged in the raid.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1713430.stm

__________________________


'Friday, 14 December, 2001, 02:23 GMT
Israel renews assault on Palestinians

The Israeli air force has launched fresh strikes on Palestinian targets in the Gaza Strip.

Helicopters and F-16 jets attacked a number of buildings in Gaza City, including a compound used by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1708655.stm

_____________________________

'Friday, 7 December, 2001, 08:56 GMT
Israel launches new Gaza raids

After a lull of 48 hours, Israel has renewed its attacks on the Palestinian territories with an air raid and a ground operation in the Gaza Strip.

The BBC's correspondent in Gaza, Kylie Morris, said that at least 20 people were wounded when F-16 warplanes bombed the Palestinian Authority's main police headquarters in Gaza City

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1695136.stm

________________________________________

Saturday, 15 September, 2001, 17:09 GMT 18:09 UK
Israel strikes at Gaza

A Palestinian youth has been killed and several other Palestinians injured in a day of violence in the Gaza Strip, reports say.

The injuries came during a series of attacks launched by Israel across the Gaza Strip.

Two helicopter gunships fired at least eight missiles into a military intelligence post in Gaza City, and also hit a security position near the Nusseirat refugee camp, Palestinian officials said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1545718.stm

__________________________________-

As julianer said;

--The conditions in Gaza are not happening in isolation, for heaven's sake. To me this is sickening propaganda - Israel spends years destroying the infrastructure of the PA, including its police stations, and then complains about a lack of law and order in the land it has destroyed, because the authority it has undermined is not strong enough.--

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=110580&mesg_id=110945

[julianer]

90. Thanks for replying to that

I ignore that person.

[pelsar]

96. tolerence...

its an important part of humanity....its especially important when dealing with people and cultures that one doesnt understand and should express interest in learning about their cultures......it reduces conflict.....

[Englander]

101. Yes, the resident "peacenik".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=108856#109264

;-)

[pelsar]

106. the peacenik...

i am far more the "peacnik" than many on this board....my views are based on the reality and not some "ideal" that doesnt exist anyware in the world, let alone in this conflict.

the conflict will be solved by those who are willing to speak of realistic options, risk being wrong, and still discuss viable realistic options.....those of use who can talk and write about real solutions to real problems....

those who cant simply feed the feeble minds who believe in fairy tales......

[pelsar]

92. 3 and 4 years ago...

your articles a just a tad old......i think the palestenains could have replace them by now...and if thats all you could find, it hardly shows the "destruction of the PA as a force...

anything a bit more recent? a bit more relevant?

[pelsar]

25. i find this hilarious and so typical.....

on a different post you say that israel should give back the westbank "tonight"...but in the above post, when israel gave back gaza in 6 days you write:

this might have been a ruse to let the Palestinians humiliate themselves by giving them "too much too fast"

so even though israel does what you believe should be done...since i doesnt work out the way you would like, you get to blame israel, for "doing what you would like, but since it didnt work out, it must be an israeli trick"


btw, so which is it, you cant have it both ways....give back the westbank "tonight" with the chaos that will follow or not (you can forget the internationals, islamic jihad and its offshoots have a habit of kidnapping and threatening them)

[sopmod]

29. You don't get me at all..

I see the Occupied Territories as a millstone around Israel's neck and I would like to see Israel freed of any excuse for their enemies or critics to persecute them when they have been far more judicious than any racist western nation would have been in the same situation.

Indeed I am a Jew and would actually would like to make Aliyah some day but not while the world at large and a bunch of warmongers manipulate compound misery to make Israel their whipping boy and giving the Palestinians nothing but "Lip Service and Hate Fuel"!!!

[pelsar]

31. i dont disagree...about the territories...but

face up to reality....the critics will criticize israel no matter what...get used to it. (stick around here and you'll see that no matter what israel does, it will be critizised...but you will rarly find the opposite,,,,more so when i inquire for the ask for "approved options"..i'm usually greeted with silence...

[Violet_Crumble]

38. What you described wasn't reality...

There are some who will criticise Israel no matter what, just like there are some who will criticise the Palestinians no matter what. It's part and parcel of being on a political forum. You say you rarely find the latter? I'm more than happy to start posting links to thread after thread after thread where it happens if you have happened to miss them...

And you are not greeted with silence when you ask that same question over and over again. What's happening is that people are saying isn't what you want to hear, so you keep on asking in the hope someone will say what you want...

I've answered yr question before, pelsar, so now I want to know what you think should be done...

Violet...

[eyl]

47. No Violet

every time pelsar (and myself) have asked "what should be done" - we get either "I don't know", or alternatively platitudes on how Israel should do "something else". The only suggestions I've actually seen were a buffer zone and UN troops - both of which are of (at best) limited practicality (at least under current circumstances), for reasons I've explained elsewhere.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. I've yet to see you or pelsar attempt an answer...

btw, as well as thinking the UN peacekeepers is the best idea I've seen, I've said quite a bit about what Israel shouldn't do, for the obvious reason that it wouldn't be effective and it'd involve harming civilians...

Violet...

[eyl]

51. We're not the ones

criticising every Israeli action

[Violet_Crumble]

80. So who is?

I didn't realise that was a prerequisite for answering. If I had, I wouldn't have wasted my time on it...

Violet...

[eyl]

82. A prerequisite, no

but we're (more-or-less) in line with actions which are currently being taken - and it would be at least polite for those posters who are condmening every Israeli action as a war crime to at least offer some other possibility. See also my response to Englander below.

[Englander]

85. It's not "every Israeli action" - only the illegal ones.

I have no problem with the legal ones, it's just that it appears there are
more illegal, than legal.

[pelsar]

95. which ones are legal?

i'm confused...which actions concerning the kassams, suicide bombers, shooters are "legal"

every single action that the IDF does in protecting itself affects the civilain palestenians where the jihadnikim live and fight....so can you be specific as to which actions are "legal"....

[Englander]

102. If you have to ask...... n/t

[pelsar]

105. yes i have to ask...

because i dont really know....now the answer if you please....(though i did notice you tend to shy away when it comes to actually placing down such answers...)

nows your chance to educate me, because from what I've learned from my time spent at the DU every single israeli action reguarding this war with the palestenains is considered illegal and a war crime...so yes i have to ask.

if it helps i can give you some actual scenarios and you could tell me the legit israeli response

[Englander]

86. Yeah, who are the beggars!

Condemn them!

;-)

[pelsar]

59. i dont have a single answer....

i am however watching what the IDF does, what they try, why they are trying and what the results are....i am not going to criticize them for every move they make, since i see they are attempting to minimize civilian casualties while disrupting the missles.

sonic booms
artillary in open fields
artillary in access roads
warning the civilian population

none are perfect, yet all attempt to minimize casulties where the shooters hide behind civilians and use them as shields.

there are limits when the jihadnikim play civilians to what a force can do and i recognize that..i dont belive you do.

sooner or later, when the missles get more accuarate, hit school or hospital...it will be too much and the result will be "punishment raids"...which will mean leveling parts of cities..(we call it death points...enough israelis killed and we can use bigger bombs)

and no doubt you will say "thats a war crime"....yet you will offer silence as the alternative......since its my life at stake, i do not believe my govt has to stand around and do nothing while the palestenians keep trying to kill me......( i dont know if thats labled a "war crime" but its really irrelvant to me)
________________

as far as the question i keep on asking....i've gotten two partial responses: one from you which was an "i dont know'..and one much earlier from bemildred which also was a "I dont know"....neither does much to keeping me alive.

i'm missing a couple......but once were clarified on the difficulty of responding to missles...and understand that "I dont know, but critizes every move israel makes is the equivilant of "do nothing and let yourself be killed" (that would be the result of accepting the criticism), we can then move on the difficulty of protecting a civilian population when the killers are dressed up as civilians...after that, may come the realization that the onus is on the missle shooters who use the civilian palestenains as hostages and it is they that are actually doing the war crimes, not israel (in this area)

at that point i would expect to see multiple posts protesting the palestenians shooting missles in to israel and calls for them to stop....as opposed to protesting israelis attempts to stop the missles from killing israelis.

[Englander]

71. That's it?

Those four suggestions are most definitely war crimes, I hope I don't have to
explain why they are, or why they're illegal, as well as being counter-productive
& not the behaviour of a nation that wishes to get itself out of the "Pariah-state"
corner. If you're having difficulty thinking of the repugnant suggestions as war
crimes, then try reversing the situation, or applying the practices to another
situation. Try imagining that a different country, that's involved in a brutal occupation,
is suggesting that the deliberate targeting of a civilian population isn't really anything
to be concerned about, that the destruction of the infrastructure or creating "death zones"
isn't a problem.

[pelsar]

78. so whats yours?

if you dont have one...and the above are no good...i'm assuming that leaves me just going about my business waiting for a kassam to land and kill me.....and then no doubt there will be more

come on....thats all i got....so what do you have to suggest?

[eyl]

81. Warning the civilian population is a war crime?

Firing on empty fields - which are being used as launching sites - is a war crime?

Tell me, what actions Israel could take would not be considered war crimes by you? Sending IJ letters of protest?

[Englander]

84. Yes, they are.

Isn't that the exact same problem you have with the qassams?

The "firing on empty fields", which isn't an accurate description of
the artilery shelling, is an eg of targeting of a civilian infrastructure,
the odds are that those "fields" will be roads, or bridges, or homes, or
power supplies, or water supplies, &tc.

[eyl]

87. Well, you ingored part of the sentence

is firing at empty fields - which are being used as launch sites - a war crime?

[Englander]

103. I discounted, not ignored, there's a difference.

I can't see how lobbing artillery at "empty fields" is effective, or productive.

[Violet_Crumble]

83. Too right I'll say that's a war crime...

Anyone who wouldn't think that has no right at all claiming that firing missiles into Israel in the hope of hitting civilian targets is a war crime (btw, I do think that's a war crime as well)..

And I do realise the difficulties faced by Israel in doing something that will end missile attacks. But I also realise that taking action that results in harm to Palestinian civilians makes Israel no better than those who they're trying to stop, and all of that results in me admitting I don't know what the solution is.

About the four forms of action you listed:

sonic booms - how is this effective, and how is it not collective punishment, considering every Gazan and Israelis in towns on the border are all adversely affected by it?

artillery in open fields - what's in these fields? And how does this work to stop future missile attacks?

artillery in access roads - what's the reason for doing this? I'm not seeing where that one achieves something...

warning the civilian population - like the US did in Fallujah, right? Get out of yr homes or we'll blame you for yr own deaths when we bomb the crap out of the place stuff would be one of those nasties that are usually seen as a violation of human rights except when the US and it's allies do it...

Violet...

[eyl]

88. So basically

you're saying that under international law (at least your interpretation of it, with which I reserve the right to disagree) Israel has no recourse to prevent its citizens from being attacked. You don't see anything wrong with that situation?

[pelsar]

89. none by themselves stop the kassams....

they put pressure on the shooters to move in fast, set up shoot and get out before they are discovered and the artillary comes down....it means they are less accurate

all of the above adversly affect the population in the vicinity....

the open field fire is a constant reminder to the civilians to stay away (n. Gaza, where the settlements were)

the missles are brought in by vehicle..hit the roads and they have to go slower....and can be discovered

sonic booms keeps puts a social pressure on the entire population that while missles are shot at isrrael, they too will suffer, whether it works or not...i have no idea

_________________________

none of the above stop the missles but they affect their accuracy and keep the pressure which affects the shooters...however i'm definitly open to other suggestions which are less painful to the local population

[Behind the Aegis]

104. Good points.

Let's word this a different way...

"And I do realise the difficulties faced by Sarah in doing something that will end the beatings. But I also realise that taking action that results in harm to Fred makes Sarah no better than those who she 'is' trying to stop, and all of that results in me admitting I don't know what the solution is."

The four actions:

Sonic booms: "how is this effective, and how is it not collective punishment, considering every Gazan and Israelis in towns on the border are all adversely affected by it?" How is this different than raining Kassams?

artillery in open fields: "what's in these fields? And how does this work to stop future missile attacks?" Does it matter? If the 'field' is rendered unusable for missile launch, isn't that good enough?

artillery in access roads: "what's the reason for doing this? I'm not seeing where that one achieves something..." Hey! I have a great path to 'Old man Johnson's house...." Still can't see the problem?

warning the civilian population: "like the US did in Fallujah, right? Get out of yr homes or we'll blame you for yr own deaths when we bomb the crap out of the place stuff would be one of those nasties that are usually seen as a violation of human rights except when the US and it's allies do it..." Oh yes...so much the same. :eyes: Israel taking the 'high road' and wanting to minimize civilian casualties is such a horrible thing! :eyes: again! Oh wait...Iraq and Palestine are not EVEN comparable! Iraq NEVER invaded the US...can the same be said of the occupied territories? Nope! Oh wait...in the number of years that Israel has occupied those territories, the same number of civilian deaths have occured...ooops...nope! Aw fuck...not EVEN close! So, your problem with warning the civilian population is.....?

[Englander]

72. Apparently, that isn't a good reason to discount a suggestion -

It appears that, yes, any suggestion that's illegal, or ineffective, or involves
harming civilians should be considered!

[pelsar]

77. and yet...

i have never ever ever read from you a suggestion that can be implemented.....ever........that would either stop or hinder the kassams that are terrorizing israelis

something that can actually be implemented, you have never ever proposed,.......why is that? (the post you've refered me to in the past, i couldnt find a single proposal....perhaps i'm reading it wrong-so you could put the proposals here)

[eyl]

36. They need an excuse? n/t

[Wordie]

91. I don't think that the world community should reward this sort of strategy

If there were some sort of statement of a specific date (in the past) at which point any increase in population would not EVER be considered in any final settlement, then it seems to me that the fervor to increase these illegal settlements would be substantially abated. And that would be a major step toward peace. Why should the Israelis be rewarded for their decades-long policy of agreeing in discussions that there would be no more settlements, but then doing nothing to stop them, and in fact, giving a wink-and-a-nod to all sorts of horrible practices designed to remove the Palestinians from their own land?

The impact of these settlements, should they be allowed to remain, upon the ability of the Palestinians ever to form a viable state is just devastating.

[julianer]

52. Do you have to be racist?

This forum has enough trouble without suggesting that entire nations are 'too stupid'.

Not to mention the usually associated rubbish about Sharon the saintly man of peace.

[sopmod]

62. Jews and Palestinians have genetic commonality(race is a non-issue)

It's not about race.There are more diverse racial populations in Israel than in the PA.This is about popular ideology and what the common man is willing to accept.

Israelis can barely finish an election because half of the population is liberal socialist who are firmly anti-war and wanted to give back the OT six months after it was taken.The other half of the population is so busy holding a grudge against all of the death and suffering they have experienced that they won't let go of their hate long enough to seek a solution.

The PA has no such ideological division,their political process is based on two political camps.

#1 Form a new Palestinian state with the hopes of one day of overwhelming the Jewish population by numbers and economy.

or

#2 To fulfill Islamic Prophecy: Even the trees and stones will cry out, "O Abdullah, O Abdul Rahman, O Muslim, come, here is a Jew behind me, kill him." In this way God will cause the Jews to be annihilated and Muslims shall be the victors. They will break the Cross, slaughter the swine and abolish Jizya (levied on non-Muslims)."


I am a Jewish radical pursuer of peace and have searched the world 18 years for my Palestinian counterparts and those that I have found do not reside in Palestine but here in the US.

Both they and myself would be ostracized or even killed for some of the views we hold to but there are many people who say they are for Palestinian liberation but have a twisted,one sided view that justifies Palestinian terrorism and decries the Jewish right to safety and self defense as evil.

That is no seeker of peace unless peace means the eradication of all Jews from Israel :(

[julianer]

66. Bloody hell......

If you call an entire group of people 'stupid' that is categorising in a racist fashion. To argue that there is little 'genetic' difference is wildly missing the point - race is not based on 'genetics' it is based on prejudice from a 'superior' group (presumably the non-stupid Jews) to an inferior group.

'Race' is a made up idea that is used to justify exactly such prejudice and it is used in exactly the way you just did.

If you think that genetic similarity allows you to castigate entire groups of people you are simply racist without realising it. You justify your racism with spurious 'scientific' rationalisations.

Simply replace the word Jew or black people in your comments and you'll see.

[Violet_Crumble]

75. They won't be calling anyone anything from now on...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=180683

Violet....

[julianer]

79. Good

that's cheered me up a bit.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Englander]

3. Well, one would've thought they'd be grateful, really.

'Provocative words raise Mideast tensions

November 16, 1998

>snip

Ross also met Sunday with Israeli Foreign Minister Ariel Sharon, whose comments aren't likely to please Washington either.

In comments broadcast on Israeli radio, Sharon urged Jewish settlers to grab West Bank hilltops before a permanent agreement is reached on the area where Palestinians hope to build an independent homeland.

"Everyone there should move, should run, should grab more hills, expand the territory," exhorted Sharon. "Everything that's grabbed, will be in our hands. Everything we don't grab will be in their hands."

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9811/15/mideast.wrap/

[bemildred]

20. Yeah.

I read a couple amazingly virulent attacks on Sharon in the Israeli religious nationalist press. Kind of makes me feel good about myself, because I have refrained from calling him names or otherwise verbally dancing a jig around him since he had his strokes. It is really funny to read people going on about "muslim extremists" and how Arabs need to do this and Arabs need to do that, while these utter loons are well armed and free.

[Englander]

42. That's it, absolutely. n/t

[Wordie]

21. But if those settlements are all illegal, how in the world could they be

allowed to influence a final decision??? I'm truly missing something, I guess, because it would seem to me that the final settlement must involve the dismantling of those settlements, or at the very least, turning them over to the Palestinians. I've often thought it would be far better to leave the housing in place, and let the Palestinians have those houses. I pray that this strategy of gobbling up all the Palestinian land won't be successful in the end. How could there ever be peace under a situation where the Israelis were able to get away with this?

[Jim Sagle]

26. So are you for peace or against it?

[Wordie]

33. Your reply doesn't seem to follow. Could you please explain? n/t

[Englander]

39. Don't feed him.

:)

[Englander]

41. Because one side has the backing of the Empire of the day -

One side in this conflict has the support of the Empire du jour, (the US)
& any illegality on the part of that party (Israel) is either ignored, or rewarded.

[sopmod]

61. Are the Israelis really that bad?(Black September,Gulf War,N Ireland)

The Israelis have yet to kill even half as many Palestinians in 50 years as Jordan did in 10 days during "Black September",or as many as the UK has in N.Ireland or as the US has in Iraq..

If almost any other country was in the same circumstance of Israel there would be no rubber bullets,tear gas or "surrender boxes" for bomber to go to when they change their mind at checkpoints and the Palestinian death toll would be 30,000 instead of 3,000.

Remember we are dealing with Jews here and Jews basically popularized the ideas of social justice and the value of all life when that was a very unpopular opinion in all of these western countries.

GW would have given then "Flash and Awe" over the shopping mall incident alone and they would still be cleaning up the innocent civilian bodies.

[pelsar]

64. sopmod....

you will find here at the DU that israel is in another "reality"....attempting to compare to other conflicts to understand the limitations of force and other options available that other countries use (i.e. syria leveling their own city when they deemed it rebellious...) are considered an attempt to "change the subject" or "not worthy of israel to compare to"

the real reason...is that if we actually do compare methods used by other countries in conflicts, death tolls, "war crimes" "collective punishment", reporters killed...we would find that israel not only is far from being the worst, its attempts and methods at minimizing civilian deaths are being sought after from almost all western countries.

but thats not relevant here, the restriction of reality of limited options just dont apply to israel.

[sopmod]

65. How can real peace come out of irrational justification of hatred?

Demonizing the Israelis for doing less about the Palestinian Violence than any Racist Western of Islamic country would do faced with the same circumstances only justifies belligerence and terror which only encourages heavy handed reprisals which only leads to more terror.

I can't believe that people don't see it.

Spending a year in Israel working as an ambulance driver for Magen David Adom and scraping up the mangled bodies of innocent Israelis might freshen up some brain cells for some of these people but more importantly watching the same amount of effort being put into saving an Arab as a Jew would probably be the biggest shocker of all to these Mamzers.

[Englander]

70. No it isn't.

But it's good to know that you've realised that the GOI is guilty of war crimes.

'Amnesty slams Israel 'war crimes'

Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The rights group's report for 2004 says Israeli forces have killed some 700 Palestinians - including 150 children - mostly in unlawful circumstances.

The report lists "reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian areas... and excessive use of force". '

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4580139.stm


btw, yer talking to a ghost;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=180683

[pelsar]

74. israels war crimes...

sure we've had soldiers cross the line from whats acceptable to criminal behavior...never said it did happen.

of course amnesty has some pretty funny lines in there: excessive use of force for instance

well when you and your buddies are getting shot at, excessive force is pretty subjective, from my point of view, short of a nbomb, there is no such thing (try it, getting shot at, and well see how your definition of excessive force changes real fast but once again, thats just those who deal with reality)

"reckless shooting"... now thats a winner if i ever read one....does that mean the soldier missed? guess amnesty doesnt know much about the stats of soldiers hitting their intended targets, or how they shoot when they cant find the shooter, while being shot at (its called going "ballistic") or perhaps IDF soldiers are just special and dont fit the normal soldier profile.....

tsk tsk tsk...those reports are as if i wrote about quantim physics....not based in reality