Nordic VCs seek co-investment opportunities in Israel

[barb162]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1136361096972&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Jan. 17, 2006 9:47
Nordic VCs seek co-investment opportunities in Israel
By SHARON WROBEL

Leading Nordic venture capital firms are seeking to join the club of foreigners looking for co-investments in the Israeli venture capital market.

During their first visit to Israel, the Nordic Venture Network delegation, represented by nine venture capital firms of the Nordic region, met on Monday in one-on-one meetings with 25 Israeli venture capital and technology firms.

snip

The NVN established in 1999, is a private club of the 12 leading technology venture capital firms in Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Denmark. The members, which make up about 80% of the Nordic venture tech market, have between them over €2.5b. under management, 250 portfolio companies and 100 investment professionals.

snip

The arrival of the delegation comes after Norwegian Finance Minister Kristin Halvorsen apologized for publicly backing a consumer boycott of Israel. In December, the municipality of Soer-Trondelag in central Norway voted in favor of a boycott of Israeli goods and services because of Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories.

snip

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1136361096972&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Tom Joad]

1. Some folks always lookin for a way to make a buck. or in this case a Krone

[barb162]

2. Funny how that works, huh? An economic boycott

can be an interesting economic tool and it can be a double-edged sword. Imagine if Israel and its supporters decide to stop buying Norwegian products. Or they decide they don't need to see the fjords this year or next. Lots of people running those cruises, hotels, restaurants, etc., would be out of work. It's decidedly better to keep economic sanctions off the table.

[Tom Joad]

4. That is what South Africa said. "Don't do that...."

[barb162]

5. South Africa is irrelevant in this forum n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

7. It's totally relevant in this context....

n/t

[barb162]

8. Not to me and obviously not to the NVN delegation n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Then both of you are totally wrong n/t

[barb162]

10. You are wrong n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Care to explain why?

Did I miss the bit in the article where that group claimed that South Africa wasn't relevent? I don't think I did. Could you also explain why you think that South Africa isn't relevent to discussions on international boycotts?

Violet...

[barb162]

16. See post 5 and obviously if the Norwegian group is

visiting Israel they are looking to check out business opportunities.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. 'I'm right because I say so!!'?

I asked you to explain WHY you think discussing South Africa in the context of international boycotts isn't relevent. I didn't ask you to repeat yr statement that you think it's irrelevent. Also, you claimed that the group agreed with you that discussing SA in this context was irrelevent, but now you say they're visiting Israel to check out business opportunities - two very different statements...

Violet...

[barb162]

40. You're wrong. Please reread the entire article from the

Jerusalem Post. It has a pretty easy reading level that doesn't need explanation in my opinion.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. I asked you to explain to me...

..as the article doesn't make the claim that you made. If you don't want to, that's no skin off my nose...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

29. I agree - totally relevant - but for other reasons

A New Old Way to Make Diesel - To Beat The Boycott of South Africa

RAS LAFFAN INDUSTRIAL CITY, Qatar - In this tiny emirate near the border with Iran, the world's largest oil companies are betting billions of dollars on an obscure method for making diesel fuel that stems from apartheid South Africa's aggressive efforts to wean its economy off imported oil.

<<<snip>>>

The gas-to-liquid method, on the other hand, provides an alternative to oil as a transportation fuel. Gas-to-liquids essentially transforms natural gas into liquid diesel that can be transported and sold using existing tankers, refineries and gas stations.

Diesel is much more commonplace in Europe than in the United States, where consumers still think of it as a heavily polluting fuel used in big trucks and machinery. Two German scientists, Franz Fischer and Hans Tropsch, developed the process in the 1920's after discovering a way of converting coal into a liquid fuel.

<<<snip>>>

Transforming gas-to-liquids into an environmentally-friendly fuel source is new, even if production methods have already gone through several incarnations. During World War II, Germany developed methods to convert coal into fuel for their army. And, apartheid leaders in South Africa adapted methods to convert coal into a transportation fuel to survive economic isolation.

This a variant of the Fischer-Tropsch process which essentially combines natural gas with water and oxygen, then exposes that mixture to cobalt to produce a transparent liquid fuel.

Another appender was thoughtful enough to jog my memory () that the Israelis might have contributed to the research, development, and implementation of commercial Fischer-Tropsch synthesis in South Africa.

BTW - this is pretty much the history of the Israeli avionics industry, the electronics industry, the aviation industry, the microelectronics industry, and even (arguably) Israel's water desalination technology.

So, yes, I agree with your original point, the boycott of South Africa is relevant - but not the way you suggest.

----Implementing new technology --- moving it from the lab bench or developer's terminal into society -- is my business.----

:hi:

Yes. You did see the gist of this append before, click over to

[Coastie for Truth]

69. Israeli Scientists Describe Photo Thermal Synthesis of Fuels

, Alexander Berman,* Rakesh K. Karn, and Michael Epstein,

Solar Research Facilities Unit, Weizmann Institute of Science, P.O. Box 26, Rehovot 76100, Israel

ABSTRACT

A new type of solar-heated reformer, called the volumetric reformer, has been recently developed. In this reformer, the concentrated solar radiation directly illuminates the catalyst through a transparent window. This new type of solar reformer can operate at a temperature range of 1273-1373 K, higher than that common in industrial reformers. Different configurations of the catalyst substrate in these volumetric reformers have been reported in the literature. This article describes a catalytic system specifically applied in the directly irradiated annular pressurized receiver (DIAPR), which was developed at the Weizmann Institute of Science for operation at high temperatures and pressures. The catalytic system based on the DIAPR concept was constructed on an array of ceramic pins loaded with catalyst. Cost-effective catalytic elements that will be implemented in this type of volumetric reformer were developed in the present work. A Ru/Al2O3 catalyst promoted with Mn oxides was supported on ceramic pins (made of alumina) by wash coating. The catalyst was characterized by SEM, XRD, and BET. The fresh catalyst contains mainly -alumina and Mn2O3. Al2O3, Mn3O4, and MnAl2O4 were observed in the XRD pattern after reaction in the temperature range of 773-1473 K. Activity tests were conducted in a tube flow reactor made of sintered alumina (99.7% Al2O3). The results show that the activity of the new catalyst is similar to the activity of the commercial Engelhard 1%Ru/-Al2O3 catalyst. However, while the activity of the commercial catalyst decreases drastically when approaching to 1273 K because of phase transformation in the support, the new catalyst is stable even after calcinations at 1373 K for 500 h under argon flow.

and a related DU link:

The sun is an enormous source of energy; in one year, the amount of solar energy incident on the earth is about 15 000 times the world’s energy use. However, because the solar energy intensity is low, the challenge is to find an efficient way of converting the solar radiation into an energy form that one can readily utilize. One promising concept is using the concentrated solar energy to upgrade fuels such as methane into an energy rich synthesis gas (a mixture of hydrogen and CO called syngas), which has been commonly used in industry, for example, for hydrogen production. Syngas can be burned in a conventional gas turbine to produce electricity. It can also be employed as a starting material for a variety of chemical products, from ammonia and its fertilizer derivations to methanol and different types of alcohols, acids, and other chemicals.
The solar process for making syngas (solar reforming) is a catalytic reaction between methane and steam (or carbon dioxide) which takes place in the solar reactor. Steam reforming of methane is a highly endothermic reaction accompanied mainly by the side reaction of the water-gas shift (WGS), which is slightly exothermic...

...Solar reforming can upgrade fossil fuels by 20-30% with respect to their calorific values.2 The upgraded fuel can then be combusted in a gas turbine, thus introducing a solar contribution, known as solar gain, which can be defined as follows:

(Solar Gain ) = (Heat of Combustion of Products - Heat of Combustion of Feed)/Heat of Combustion of Feed

BTW - There are natural gas deposits in Gaza, in the Mediteranean off of the Gaza Coast, and in the Sinai (which the Israelis returned to Egypt). See, e.g., An Introduction to Economic Geology and Its Environmental Impact by the noted British Geologist, Anthony Evans. A good read.

Yes - The PA has natural resources.

[Tom Joad]

33. Many Israelis and Palestinians would think otherwise.

Many who were part of the struggle against the old Israeli ally apartheid-South Africa, like Desmond Tutu would not think it irrelevant.

You can't make that true simply by stating it Barb. This from someone who believes the actions of a few Venture Capitalists, whose only agenda is to make a profit, is relevant?

How it is relevant is that it is a precedent to look at as to how non-violent people-power can make it necessary for a state that is a massive violation of human rights (for that, see Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International... or even the US State Dept. summaries to some extent) to conform to international law.

The threat of economic sanctions gave Black South Africans power that they otherwise lacked, and for many that action was an alternative to armed struggle, which certainly they had a right to, but to the extent it was used was tragic for all involved.

To keep up business as usual with a regime that is daily destroying the homes of Palestinians sends a terrible message to Palestinians: Your struggle for justice (or for even a bit of justice!) is futile. You must resign yourself to the Israeli plan of continued dispossession, of containment to South Africa-like bantustans in the West Bank, second-class citizenship within Israel. You must surrender any hope. It is also a terrible message to Israelis: You must live in a highly militarized society forever.

On the other hand, economic sanctions provide hope and an alternative to armed struggle. Continued highlighting of human rights abuses by Israel, and economic pressure on the regime, will force Israel to make some choices... a continuation of the status quo, or a change in policy.

A poll cited in another thread said that a great majority of Israelis favor a change in the status quo and withdraw from the West Bank. This is nothing new. If it were up to the majority of the Israeli people, the West Bank would have been evacuated long ago. Sanctions may spur the government to action.

There are Israeli organizations that support divestment, or at least selective divestment.

http://www.newprofile.org/showdata.asp?pid=774
New Profile Policy on Divestment
New Profile aims to transform Israel from a highly militaristic society to a civilian society dedicated to equality of gender and ethnicity and firmly based on universal human rights.

One of several characteristics of militarism is the use of force to obtain political objectives. New Profile deems Israel’s occupation of the Palestinians to be a use of force to obtain the political objective of creating the ‘greater Israel.’

<snip>
We therefore seek non-violent means of ending this catastrophic Occupation. One such means is using economic sanctions to pressure the government to change its policy. To this end New Profile welcomes and supports selective divestment aimed at divesting from companies that contribute to the continuation of the Occupation by supplying arms, other equipment, or staff.

We welcome all such endeavors, believing firmly that ending the occupation is not only to the benefit of the Palestinians but also necessary for the welfare of Israel, its youth, and future generations. Over 20,000 Israeli soldiers have died in its wars since 1948. Enough. It is time to beat our swords into ploughshares, to bring security to Israel by giving the Palestinians their freedom and recognizing their absolute right to exist, and to build a future for today’s Israeli youth and generations to come by creating a civilian society whose underpinnings are equality of gender and ethnicity and universal human rights.

[pelsar]

34. nothing beats spreading "wrong information"

To keep up business as usual with a regime that is daily destroying the homes of Palestinians ....

wouldnt it be grand if posters here even attempted to keep the posts even a little bit accurate?...you know a small step in the right direction.

[Tom Joad]

38. Demolition of Palestinian homes continue unabated.

House demolitions in Jerusalem continue unabated

Occupation bulldozers arrived in Ein Lozeh in Silwan (Jerusalem) on the morning of January the 16th and attacked the house of Ahmed al Raziq. Al-Raziq’s modest property consisted of a single 75 square meter room. He had built a small structure above the entrance to the property in order to prevent the house from decaying. Occupation Forces used this as a pretext for demolishing his house, stating they had not given permission for the structure to be built on Ahmed’s property.

The contingent of Soldiers that arrived declared the area a “closed military zone”, and forced Ahmed and his wife to leave. The local community was barred from the property and unable to assist the elderly couple as they were forced out of their home. Ahmed’s wife is 60 years old and suffers from cancer, while he suffers from breathing difficulties. They were forced to watch the house rendered inhabitable as the bulldozers moved in to demolish the crucial support for the house.
http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/1082.shtml

I have no tolerance for the indifference of the State or Corporations when they force people out of their homes, whether it is in depression-era Oklahoma, or New Orleans, or Jerusalem and Jenin.
These folks are being "tractored out by the Cats".

The above is not an isolated incident.

"Wouldn't it be grand if posters here even attempted to keep the posts even a little bit accurate" I agree!

[Andromeda]

50. What does this have to do with the OP?

Maybe you should start your own thread since your post is off-topic.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. About as much as a recent other off-topic post you praised...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x112298#112672


Strange. No suggestions for that poster to start a new thread....
Violet...

[Andromeda]

63. The post was excellent...

What can I say---some people have important things to say that are worth reading.:shrug:

[Violet_Crumble]

64. It was off-topic...

So it's fine to point out something's offtopic if you disagree with what the poster is saying, but ignore it if you agree with what it's saying? Not a very consistant approach, as yr personal opinion may lead you to believe that totally one-sided posts that are full of factual inaccuracies are important and excellent, while someone else may disagree. I happen to disagree, but if I were to start jumping into threads pointing out posts are off-topic, at least I'd be consistant about it and not ignore the off-topic side of things when it suits my agenda...

Violet...

[pelsar]

53. isolated...no...

daily?...no.....

[Coastie for Truth]

55. If you object to Intel's facilities in israel

Close your placement office to Intel. (Just like Boalt Hall does with respect to the military and the military's "Don't Ask-Don't Tell" policy).

Band together with other Intel shareholders to p
Only buy PC's with AMD processors - better yet -- buy Macs.

If you object to Microsoft's development center in Haifa - run Linux. Or MacOS. And certainly vote your stock against incumbent management.

If you object to Astra-Zenca's research center in israel - take Bi-So-Dol. Or vote your Astra-Zenca stock against incumbent management.

[Coastie for Truth]

58. Encourage good behavior OR Punish bad behavior

- Join thousands of American Jews in helping to bring the West Bank settlers home voluntarily to Israel.

We are American Jews who care deeply about Israel and who are filled with sorrow by the continuous cycle of violence and death in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We call upon the US government to embrace an initiative that can build on the momentum generated by the Gaza withdrawal, lay the groundwork for a negotiated settlement, safeguard the lives of Israeli settlers, and remove a major obstacle to peace.

We call upon the US government:

* To urge the Israeli government to reverse its longstanding policy of offering financial inducements to Israeli settlers in the West Bank and to redirect those funds to settlers who are now willing to return voluntarily to Israel proper;

* To provide generous foreign assistance and to solicit contributions from the European Union, other major industrial democracies, and the United Nations for this massive relocation effort.

FOR THE SAKE OF ISRAEL'S SECURITY, BRING THE SETTLERS HOME
The settlers have never enhanced Israel's security. On the contrary, their vulnerability to attack has resulted in the loss of thousands of Israeli soldiers and civilians. Those who live on land expected to be negotiated as part of the future Palestinian State, especially those in settlements that are distant from the Green Line (pre-1967 borders of Israel) and are surrounded by much larger Arab populations, are an obstacle to peace; their continued presence prevents a viable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

FOR THE SAKE OF ISRAEL'S ECONOMY, BRING THE SETTLERS HOME
The cost of sustaining and protecting the settlers is draining Israel's resources; it limits Israel's ability to provide vital social services, build a stable economy, and ensure peaceful coexistence between the Jews and the Arabs of Israel.

PROVIDING SUITABLE COMPENSATION OPENS UP THE POSSIBILITY FOR MANY SETTLERS TO VOLUNTARILY RETURN TO ISRAEL PROPER
A popular misconception claims that settlers would uniformly resist any attempt to bring them home to Israel, but a November 2005 survey* of settlers whose communities are on the Palestinian side of the separation barrier found that about 25% would be willing to leave immediately if they were offered comparable housing within the Green Line. The poll also found that 35% percent of the settlers and 74% of the general public support the new 'evacuation-compensation' bill that would enable those who wish to move out of their settlement to do so, in return alternative housing within the Green Line.

A 2002 survey** revealed that 59% of settlers are prepared to accept a withdrawal from the settlements in exchange for suitable financial compensation in the context of a democratic decision by the Israeli government. Only 2% would fight against the decision with illegal means. The survey also found that 77% of settlers chose to live in settlements for “quality of life” reasons and just 20% of settlers moved to the occupied territories for religious reasons.

*Survey of 500 settlers whose communities are on the Palestinian side of the separation barrier, and 500 Israelis nationwide conducted by the Israeli firm TNS Teleseker in November 2005for the One Home Movement.

**Survey of 3200 households in 127 settlements in the West Bank and Gaza conducted by the Hopp Research Company in July 2002 for Peace Now.

See also



You can EITHER Punish Bad Behavior OR Reward Good Behavior --- But In the Diplomatic Area - especially "People to People" Diplomacy with the working folk -- you can't do both.

And most settlers are not right wing, Likudnik, fundie Haredies. They are people who wanted cheap housing.

[Coastie for Truth]

54. Just don't interview companies you object to

--or tell your students not to interview them.

That's what the law schools do with respect to the military's "Don't ask-Don't tell" - even Boalt Hall.

That's what the universities did in the late 1960's and early 1970's with respect to affirmative action -- closed their placement offices to companies that practiced discrimination.

Better yet - instead of "divesting" why not follow the Unitarian Universalists -- and several other churches --- and use the shareholder initiative route --- not as emotionally satisfying --- but much more effective.

[pelsar]

13. ohhh are we comparing?....

i thought that was a "no no" on this forum.....Great...now lets get down to comparing the various countries in the world and figure out who should really be boycotted for their evil deeds, countries that need to be "wiped off the map" if you will (but remember its just a figure of speach, lets put it in its context, a cultural sort of thing...)

i would start with iran, hanging homosexuals, and girls who talk back, really strikes me as a regime that needs to go.....

maybe not, how about saudi arabia, now theres apartheid for you, against women....

how about zimbabwa, taking farms from the white dudes, or razing poor peoples homes...

oh gosh, just so many to choose from......

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Uh, South Africa was boycotted...

Which is why Tom made that comment. If you know of other countries that have been boycotted who wouldn't have reacted the same as South Africa, then I can understand you bringing them up, but Tom's post wasn't about who should be boycotted, but the reaction of countries faced with boycotts...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

30. In some societies an economic boycott actually

stimulates reserch, development, design, innovation, and implementation - like South Africa's Ficher-Tropsch synthetic fuel industry and their pharmaceutical industry.

[Jim Sagle]

3. Doing well by doing good.

:beer:

[barb162]

6. Yeah, it benefits both countries

[pelsar]

11. lets see now.....

israeli economy improves....investments increase, more jobs for all in economy.....israel has has both the ability and need to bring in new employees....as in its past, it looks at its neighbors:

oh i forgot:

the palestenains used to have one of the fast growing economies in the area, and in fact i was actually looking to out source (like many) towards the palestenain society (during oslo)...and then they decided to declare war on us-dumb mistake.

one shouldnt try shooting your employeer and then cry you have no jobs.......or try blowing up the border control thats send goods out to the israeli market, or attack the industrial zone employing palestenians....
______________

the lesson here, it called being responsable, the palestenians want improved lives, they could start by not trying to kill us, if they continue on their path, the differences between us and them is just going to keep on growing
_______________

we arent s.africa nor our policies racist, the attempt to show us how "evil" we are doesnt really stand up to even the simplist check:

ask our minority populations who vote for the jewish/zionist parties and not the local arab/bedouin lists...perhaps they have a better take on the situation.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Israel's policies in the Occupied Territories ARE racist...

Though if you'd prefer to call them bigoted policies, then that works...

Violet...

[pelsar]

23. its neither biggoted nor racist....

the reason they're not allowed in israel en mass is not the "color of their skin, nor their accent, nor their religion,
nor their size, nor the language.....


if anything you could try their nationality...but even that doesnt work, since now many israeli arabs consider themselves palestenians (most from the younger generation)...so......must be we really hate those suicide bombers....

so much for racist and biggoted policies

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Sorry, but it is...

Israel's policies towards the Palestinians involve a lot more than allowing them to enter Israel. It is impossible to describe the policies towards Palestinians in the Occupied Territories as anything but racist, bigoted or discriminatory (as I said, take yr pick). Would you like me to run through just a few of the policies (eg roads for the settlers only, curfews, home demolitions), so you can explain just why these things aren't racist, bigoted or discriminatory?

Violet...

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

31. which?

is it racist?.......meaning the policies depend upon the color of the skin?

it it bigoted?...meaning the police and IDF just hate those "dark skinned people"...(er except the ethiopians, and those israelis from arab countries...)

how about discriminatory?....now you've got something...the policies are very discriminatory toward the palestenians. That would be a proper description....and i believe its the one that should be used, as opposed to using ones like "racism" which is simply not true and brings up wrongful images.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. I think it's the second two...

Some of the policies of the Israeli govt towards the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are bigoted and discriminatory. Yr definition of bigoted is wrong if you think bigotry can only be aimed at 'dark skinned people'. Bigotry (and indeed racism, depending on how broad a definition you use) is aimed at whatever group the aimer is intolerant towards, and is generally aimed at groups because of their nationality, ethnicity, religion, culture, etc...

I can understand why you think discriminatory is the only one that fits (it all has to do with how terms are defined), and do remember you saying something about disagreeing with the habit of one or two posters who would call themselves 'supporters of Israel' labelling support of dismantling all settlements in the West Bank to be racist, so I think you've been consistant about it...

Violet...

[Andromeda]

48. That's just your opinion...

so how much weight should I give it?

[Violet_Crumble]

66. I don't recall saying it was anything other than my opinion...

And because I don't post with the intention of caring what yr opinions of my opinions are, I'd suggest you give it as little weight as I give any of yr opinions, especially when it comes to claims that some posts are important and excellent. Glad we could get that worked out :)


Violet...

[barb162]

18. Excellent points, Pelsar

As usual

And this one is your very best: "one shouldnt try shooting your employeer and then cry you have no jobs" because as most of us know, if Israel thrives, the Palestinians working for Israeli employers will thrive.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Uh, out of work Palestinians haven't shot their employers...

btw, generally blue-collar workers don't thrive when an economy thrives, so there's that little fairy-tale scenario right out the window...


Violet...

[barb162]

20. You are wrong. 1. Out of work people have no employers

so how do they shoot employers they don't have? Little slip-up you're having there, hmm? 2. Generally speaking, when employers thrive, workers thrive. That is reality.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Then why were you praising Pelsar's post where he said they did??

Also, try telling Australian workers that they thrive when employers thrive. Workers know better than to swallow that crap, though our current conservative govt would argue till it's blue in the face that it's reality that workers thrive when employers thrive :)

Violet...

[barb162]

35. Reread Pelsar's post. Australian labor issues are off-topic to I/P

Pelsar wrote that workers shouldn't kill their employers and then cripe about being unemployed. What's so hard to understand about that?

You might want to post your thoughts on Australia in an appropriate forum, such as General Discussion.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. I read it and yr response...

You said to me: 'Out of work people have no employers. so how do they shoot employers they don't have?' after praising Pelsar for saying 'one shouldnt try shooting your employeer and then cry you have no jobs'. Just a tad contradictory, I think...

Thank you so much for yr pointing out what is and isn't considered relevent by you to the I/P forum. Unfortunately, what you consider to be irrelevent isn't particularly relevent when it comes to me or the rules of the forum, and unless you can now explain what the difference is in the employer/employee relationship (eg the rich get richer and the poor get poorer) between Israel and other Western countries, I'm going to keep on insisting it is relevent and post as much as I want about it. Sorry in advance :(

Violet...

[barb162]

43. "Please stay on topic" is the I/P rule

"Please stay on topic. Do not jump into an unrelated discussion and introduce a barely-relevant tangent in order to bring up your pet issue."

I am not sorry I have a different view of the rules than you and I consider Australian labor, etc., issues as irrelevant in this particular forum.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. If I was off-topic, then my post will be deleted...

As it was, I mentioned the relationship between employers and employees in my country once, and didn't write an epic post about it, as you appear to be suggesting I did. In the context of the thread, it was relevant. If you think it wasn't yr free to ignore it or hit alert on it...

Violet...

[pelsar]

21. tell that to the palestenains....

with their incredibly high unemployment....and the thais, Chinese,romanians, phillipinos that are now working in israel...and keep coming back for 2nd and 3rd times.

it seem that israeli farmers really like the thais for their dillegence (unlike the israeli and palestenian workers....)

guess they dont know about the "blue collar"/econ growth theories...

___________
if you would like an actual event: Erez industrial zone, the fruit of oslo, israeli investors, palestenian workers, on the N.edge of the gaza strip: once emplolyed 4,000 palestenians and was considered "prime employment". it nows lies desolate-too many attacks, ran the employers off.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Yes, but how did those workers shoot their employers, Pelsar?

I'm starting to notice a thing where it's considered okay to punish Palestinians for the actions of a few, but if the tables were to be turned and it was suggested that all Israelis were to be punished for the actions of their few, I very much doubt the reaction would be the same as I see now...

Violet...

[pelsar]

27. some did....

they knifed their employeers.. (i remember about 2 or 3 incidents)....

and so the israeli govt put up some screening at the entrance to Erez to find the knives (and later bombs)...but to no avail...as mortors came flying over, tunnels were dug.....


your mistaken, the palestenians werent "punished", the employers, the factorie owners realized they couldnt manufacture goods, service cars, while mortors crash into their factories, or having employees that were willing to kill them (and not knowing when or how or if...) or have a car that was serviced leave with a bomb attached. It was their loss as well, as they went for the cheap labor. (competing with china...)

it simply wasnt worth their own lives to continue to be there, if you want to blame the selfish israelis who risked their own money to build factories and garages there and later left to save what was left (as well as their own lives) go ahead, but i would say your ignoring some very simple facts inorder to blame israeli citizens for the palestenains unemployment.

_________________
btw when you generalize about the settlers or post articles that do, and their deeds, i dont "nit pic" and try to explain your "generalizing" and its "not all of them" etc. the point your trying to make is clear.

[Coastie for Truth]

37. Apparently it is considered okay to blame all Jews, and LW Zionists

for the acts of Ze'ev Boim and Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle and Larry Franklin.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Who's done this?

And who considers it okay? And what's it got to do with the post yr replying to?

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

65. Yeah, I figured no-one had...

no surprises there...

Violet...

[pelsar]

22. self delete...double post

[Coastie for Truth]

36. Not historically 100% correct.

The experience in the US is that blue-collar workers did thrive when the economy thrived from the time of the passage of the Norris-LaGuardia Act in the FDR Administration, until the Reagan policy of crushing unions (the Professional Air Traffic Controllers).

To say "generally blue-collar workers don't thrive when an economy thrives" just is not borne out in the presence of functional trade unions.

[Coastie for Truth]

32. Very Easy to see why

Go to the US Patent Office Patent Search Server at and click on the "Quick Search" Item.

Then, on Query Screen put IL in term 1 (for Israel) and sroll down to "Inventor Country" in Field 1 --> and hit "Search"

I came up with 15,110 patents from 1976 to 1/17/06 - or about 500 patents a year. Skimming through the first few screens - not all "paper patents" or "vapor ware." Definitely a porfolio that would interest VC's.

[Tom Joad]

39. Jewish Voice for Peace, US based organization, supports divestment

Their position is that "selective divestment" is the best way to go.

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/article_19.shtml

The article above says they support ending US military aid to Israel.

Personally i think this would be the most effective strategy of all to bring about a new reality in the Israel/Palestinian conflict. This would be more effective than economic divestment. I don't see that happening anytime soon, thanks to the influence of lobby's (like AIPAC)that favor occupation and racism.

I have already cited, in post #33 above, that there are Israeli organizations that support divestment.

[pelsar]

47. not unless you want the situation to be worse.....

most of the IDFs systems are quite sophisticated, costly in terms of manpower and equipement....without such israel would have to resort ot more primitive methods of defense:

landmines, ambushes, free fire zones, artillary strikes (as opposed a single helicopter shooting guided missles)...the result would be a far worse situation for the palestenains....

[Coastie for Truth]

57. Interesting about JVP

Tom, thank you for the interesting - an excerpt

A look at recent campaigns is instructive:

-On-campus "Divest from Israel" campaigns have crashed and burned, generating fantastic opportunities for our opponents to collect thousands of signatures in defense of the Israeli government (e.g. Harvard) while our allies struggled to collect hundreds. On the other hand, campaigns to "divest from companies that deal with the Israeli military" met with some limited success (Oberlin, University of Pennsylvania).

- A campaign to get a San Francisco grocery store (Rainbow) to boycott Israeli goods completely failed, and ended up being a great opportunity for our opponents to portray its sponsors as anti-Semites, a spurious charge, but one that worked for them.

- The academic boycott of Israel has likewise been a total bust, while inviting pro-justice Israeli academics has proven useful.

On-campus "Divest from Israel" campaigns have crashed and burned, generating fantastic opportunities for our opponents to collect thousands of signatures in defense of the Israeli government (e.g. Harvard) while our allies struggled to collect hundreds.

Counterproductive

On the other hand, campaigns to "divest from companies that deal with the Israeli military" met with some limited success (Oberlin, University of Pennsylvania).

More like the "close the placement office." Targeted and direct. The University of Pennsylvania used this tactic in the 1960's both to acheve affirmative action goals and against manufacturers of "Agent Orange" and "Napalm."

- A campaign to get a San Francisco grocery store (Rainbow) to boycott Israeli goods completely failed, and ended up being a great opportunity for our opponents to portray its sponsors as anti-Semites, a spurious charge, but one that worked for them.

First, Rainbow said this was a one-shot of one employee - and NOT a campaign.

Second, there was a counter-protest - including members of the Bay Area's progresive community. (I was there!)
1.

2.
Disinvestment, he says, delegitimizes Israel, threatens its existence while diverting the focus from the government's immoral actions.

"It's an economic boycott of the whole society," Lerner said. "And the economy is ordinary people. Those of us on the Zionist left are very much against this kind of tactic, even though we totally embrace what they were trying to do. To call them anti-Semitic is totally illegitimate."


3.
IN SOME OF the best definition-parsing since Bill Clinton, the Rainbow Grocery Cooperative is trying to deny the existence of its semi-boycott against Israel.

Last week The Chronicle reported that two departments at the 27-year-old neighborhood supermarket were refusing to stock Israeli goods. The "boycott" had been going on for about a year to little complaint. Then a customer sent out an e-mail that circulated around the Bay Area. Rainbow spokesman Scott Bradley confirmed the boycott to a Chronicle reporter, though a Rainbow statement stressed that the boycott was not "storewide."

Apparently the not-storewide argument didn't quell customer dissatisfaction.

Now the boycotting store is being boycotted by some Israel supporters.


4.

- The academic boycott of Israel has likewise been a total bust, while inviting pro-justice Israeli academics has proven useful.

Totally counterproductive

JVP - which is at the extreme left - according to my Berkeley, Beyt Tikkun cousins, continues--->

How we frame our campaigns has an enormous impact on the outcome of the fight. If divestment from Israel or a boycott of Israeli goods could speed up the end of the occupation, I would unhesitatingly champion those tactics. (I do not have a particular financial or emotional stake in the Israeli economy.) However, let's face it, we're not there yet. At this point, generic anti-Israel campaigns only weaken our movement and in fact perpetuate the occupation by shifting the debate away from it and towards the phony issue of "Israel's right to exist" and the like. This is a debate we do not need.

Just saying that such sanctions are not aimed at Jews or the Israeli people does not solve the problem. Better keep the focus of our campaigns laserlike on the occupation itself (and other human rights violations.) A boycott of goods from settlements does precisely that. Likewise, campaigns against companies that do business with the Israeli military, such as Caterpillar. If we maintain that sort of focus, they cannot attack us effectively. Every attempt they make to defend the settlements and the occupation further exposes them. Every attempt they make to dodge specifics reveals their corruption.

Of course, even though we do not think generic sanctions campaigns are effective at this time, we continue to reject the absurd charge that they are inherently anti-Semitic. Yes, anti-Semites may call for sanctions against Israel, but most supporters of Palestinian rights are motivated by a humanistic solidarity impulse, and they are our allies in the struggle for justice and peace.

[Andromeda]

49. Whoops, we didn't mean it!

The arrival of the delegation comes after Norwegian Finance Minister Kristin Halvorsen apologized for publicly backing a consumer boycott of Israel. In December, the municipality of Soer-Trondelag in central Norway voted in favor of a boycott of Israeli goods and services because of Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories.

That's almost too funny.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. I'm not surprised you think that...

Me, I don't think it's funny - it's just sadly pathetic...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

60. The whole tempest in a tea cup of Norway and Sue Blackwell

was about as silly and juvenile as boycotting the "Nikon School" because they hold it at the BERKELEY Hilton.

:hi:

[barb162]

59. Well, it is funny, isn't it . And so is this

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3204618,00.html

Norway: Israel boycott a flop



Level heads in Norway are ruling the day, it seems, and that is a very good development for Israel and Norway. I would not want to see trade boycotted between the two countries

[Andromeda]

62. That's good news.

Survey among large food chains shows no reduction in sales of Israeli products
Consumers don't want to boycott, but the Socialist Left Party is still stickin' to their guns! :boring:

[Violet_Crumble]

67. Question - do you oppose all trade sanctions under any circumstances?

n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

56. I would favor a boycott of "Big Oil"

because of how they, in league with the Saudi royals (Saudi Romanovs) and Saudi bourgeoisie have totally ripped off the Arab proletariat and diverted the Palestinian proletariat with diversionary weapons of mass distraction - but no sharing of wealth with the Palestinian proletariat.

I am now driving some distance out of my way to fill my car with Citgo - and help the Venezuelan proletariat.

Remember "Strawberries and sweet cream"

[Violet_Crumble]

68. Can anyone beat four 'proletariat's in one sentence?

If they can, the Marxist Wannabee Award of 2006 is yrs to pick up any time after 3pm tomorrow! ;)

Violet...

[barb162]

61. Foreign Minister reassures Israel

http://www.norwaypost.no/cgi-bin/norwaypost/imaker?id=20839

Foreign Minister reassures Israel
Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere has sent a letter to Israel's Ambassador to Norway, reassuring her that a boycott of Israel will never be a part of the Government's policy. This is in reaction to Finance Minister Kristin Halvorsen's stated support on Thursday of a boycott of Israeli products.

The Norwegian Foreign Minister also wrote a separate letter to US Foreign Scretary Condolleezza Rice, enclosing a copy of his letter to the Israelis.
Halvorsen's appeal for support of her party's announced boycott of Israeli products and services brought strong reactions from the Israeli embassy.

In a press release, the embassy writes that the appeal deviates from the traditionally friendly relations between Israel and Norway.

snip

--

Level, temperate and diplomatic heads have prevailed. This is a very nice development