Defensible borders are key to Israel's safety'

[barb162]

Jan. 24, 2006 3:37 | Updated Jan. 24, 2006 4:55
'Defensible borders are key to Israel's safety'
By RAFAEL D. FRANKEL

To defend itself against future threats, Israel must retain control of the Jordan Valley and all West Bank border crossings in any future arrangement - whether negotiated or initiated unilaterally - that defines the state's borders, a panel comprised mainly of former military men told the Herzliya Conference Monday.

The panel's presentation on "defensible borders" stressed that Israel must assume there will be global and local threats that stretch decades into the future, and should not draw borders that compromise Israel's ability to defend itself from a ground- or air-based attack.

"People talk about history, relations, water - but only some people think about the day after and how Israel will find itself in a defensible position," said Maj.-Gen. (res.) Ya'acov Amidor, the head of the Defensible Borders project at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs.

While considerations such as relations with the Palestinians, demography and history were important in defining borders, Amidor argued that the 1993 Oslo Accords went too far in compromising Israel's security in hopes for peace, adding that one like it should not rise again.

snip

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1137605901492&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[tatertop]

1. First they must remove those criminal squatters

euphemistically referred to as settlers.

[pelsar]

2. and then?

but only some people think about the day after ....back to 67 and then?.....what happens if missles and mortors start flying into jersualem (as per Gaza today.)

[barb162]

5. How do you explain the rockets coming in from Gaza after the

Israelis moved out in Sept 2005.

[Peace Patriot]

3. The position that the militarists, war profiteers and Likudites have

pushed Israel into--of being a medieval fortress, bristling with armaments, in the midst of hostile neighbors, is UNTENABLE. A house filled with guns surrounded by wire fences with attack dogs guarding them, in a dangerous neighborhood, is not really secure. Real security comes from patient communication and diplomacy, great wisdom, seeing to the needs of the whole community, and seeking the common good of everyone involved. Military thinkers can only think of conflict. They do not have the skills to imagine or achieve peace, and there is so much profit to be made in war and warlike thinking, that the whole discussion becomes polluted with ulterior motives.

I'll tell you something. I can imagine a time--in the NEAR future--when the Middle East becomes the center of peace and an example to the world, instead of a tinderbox threatening to blow the region to smithereens, and probably our whole planet with it. (Read Carl Sagan's "The Cold and the Dark" on the impacts to our atmosphere of even a limited nuclear exchange.) But it takes envisionment and great courage. My first vision is one of the the US/Israel genuinely apologizing to the people of Iran for destroying their democracy in 1953, and inflicting them with the torture-loving Shah for 25 years. They haven't forgotten this. It was a huge, huge betrayal of the progressive forces in Iran. It preys on their minds. It is what drove them into the hands of the mullahs. They have no reason to trust us, none. I imagine it happening in the UN. I imagine the ambassadors of our two countries asking for special time, and standing up, and SAYING IT. We APOLOGIZE. We shouldn't have done that. We are dreadfully sorry. And we want to start over.

The world would weep for joy at such an action. The Iranians would be flabbergasted. Maybe many wouldn't believe it at first. They certainly have reason to be suspicious. But it would sink in. And it should be followed up with other gestures--aimed at THEIR not having to live in fear, and aimed at THEIR self-determination.

Do Israelis want their legacy to be the poisoning of the Middle East with exploded nukes, or the destruction of our planet? I think not. Do they want to pass on a legacy of REAL security, the long lasting kind, that comes from wisdom and negotiation and care for the common good and self-determination of all? I'm sure most Israelis want that. And they--and we--need to go outside of panels of former military officers, and others with an investment in war--whether psychological or financial--to envision it and implement it.

[pelsar]

4. our medival fortress..

perhaps you should ask our neighbors about their intentions in 48, 67, 73 pre 82 (n. border) and today before we start lowering our guard?.....and then ask them why in gaza they insist on trying to kill us and those in lebanon even though were on "our side of the border?

start with that.....and then we can discuss the realities "war profiteers and likudniks....

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Palestinians are NOT trying to kill you...

Anymore than Israelis are trying to kill Palestinians. Trying to portray the Palestinian people as wanting to murder an entire group of people is wrong, and there's quite a few other things I could say about it that I'll bite my tongue over right now...

Disgusted...

Violet...

[pelsar]

12. then what are those missles doing?

i really dont know which particular group with in the Gaza population insists on shooting missles at us, but i do believe they are trying to kill israelis......i dont believe they're being very specific about it either....

actually i dont know what "the palestenains want"...on an individual level, i shall find all kinds of opinions, on a national level, as far as their leadership goes, its a bit fuzzy......nor do I believe they actually know at this point.

as far murdering an entire group of people... what can i say, we've been there and it seems irans has some thoughts along the same lines....i'm not sure about the rest, they seem to be a bit fuzzy about that as well.

i'm still waiting for egypt or jordan to invite israeli professors for lectures on "'whatever" or to come to israel and interview us..you know everyday stuff, the kind of things that people do who are curious about the "other".....the kind of stuff that we do with palestenaisn (talk to them, invite them to our talk shows, etc..

when that stuff starts, then i'll be a bit more relaxed about the "not wanting to murder an entire group" thing.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. The same as Israeli missiles do to the Palestinians, pelsar...

I'll repeat this, because I'm disgusted at the negative stereotyping going on when it comes to the Palestinian people by folk who shriek in outrage when any negative stereotyping is done towards Israelis.

Making comments stating that the Palestinians want to kill Israelis is incorrect and just as wrong as when comments are made stating that the Israelis want to kill Palestinians. I suggest you lay off on that stuff unless yr willing to not protest if someone makes the same sort of comments about Israeli's wanting to kill Palestinians...

Violet...

[pelsar]

18. stereotypes?....

and the settlers have never been stereotyped?....

like i said obviously "some' palestenains want to kill israelis, since someone in gaza is shooting missles at israelis....if not perhaps you would like to explain what the object of those missles are?

[barb162]

17. Palestinian suicide bombers are trying to and do kill Israelis

and most Israelis killed and injured are innocent civilians

[barb162]

6. Diplomacy has been tried on many occasions

Why do you suppose each diplomatic attempt at peace ends in no lasting peace agreements. How many times have you read Abbas condemn terrorists and then do nothing about them. How many times did you hear the same crap from Arafat.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Blaming only one party for failed diplomacy is wrong...

There's plenty of blame to go around when it comes to stalled attempts at peace, and the only folk who the Blame Everything On The Palestinians or Blame Everything on the Israelis nonsense appeals to are those who see the conflict in such absolute black and white terms that they ignore what they don't want to see...

The reality is that the inability/unwillingness to put words into action is not confined to just the Palestinians as you claim in yr post. Also, as Israel has never entered into negotiations with the stated intention of a viable and independent Palestinian state emerging, nor until Taba (they're those negotiations you claimed were irrelevent when it comes to Israeli/Palestinian negotiations) were some of the issues that show a real desire to reach a peaceful resolution (as opposed to a 'peace' where Israel works from a position of power and takes while giving away very little) - the refugee issue and the status of Jerusalem. Likewise, the Palestinians also took just as long to figure out what the lines that couldn't be crossed were for Israel...

Violet...

[barb162]

16. Camp David talks disprove your comments, Isreal wanted a deal

and bent over backwards with concessions
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-07/18/article18.shtml
snip

But, Arafat and his advisers were paralyzed by their fear of being tricked, as well as by divisions and intrigue within their team, according to the article.

The article describes Clinton as lashing out at Abu Alaa, a chief Palestinian negotiator, for refusing to bargain over a map proposed as a part of a solution, "Don't simply say to the Israelis that their map is no good. Give me something better!"

When Abu Alaa demurred, Clinton stormed out. "I won't have the United States covering for negotiations in bad faith. Let's quit!"

Near the end of the summit, Clinton rebuked Arafat saying, "If the Israelis can make compromises and you can't, I should go home. You have been here 14 days and said no to everything. These things will have consequences. Failure will end the peace process. . . . Let's let hell break loose and live with the consequences."

snip

[Coastie for Truth]

7. From your lips to God's ears

But in the mean time, the price of peace is eternal vigilance.

Some words from Sorkin's "A Few Good Men"

A Few Good Men --- Written by Aaron Sorkin
(Jack Nicholson) Jessep: You want answers?

(Tom Cruse) Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to them.

Jessep: You want answers?

Kaffee: I want the truth!

Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...

You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

Kaffee: Did you order the code red?

Jessep: (quietly) I did the job you sent me to do.

Kaffee: Did you order the code red?

Jessep: You're goddamn right I did!!

"Coastie"

Lieutenant, United States Coast Guard (Honorable Discharge)

[barb162]

8. That was Nicholson in one of his all-time great scenes

And this from one of the great Founding Fathers

"The price of peace is eternal vigilance"

[Coastie for Truth]

9. And also on the quarterdeck of the

United States Coast Guard Cutter Vigilant (WMEC 617).

[Englander]

14. From Ynet;

'Rightists unveil 'blueprint for peace'

Dore Gold, Yaakov Amidror submit alternative peace plan that would safeguard national security;
Israel must prevent loss of strategically important land territories, they say

Ronny Sofer

Former Israeli Ambassador to the U.N. Dore Gold and Major-General (res.) Yaakov Amidror have proposed a "right-wing" alternative to the leftist Geneva Accord, demanding that in any future negotiations Israel will insist on keeping strategic areas for pure security considerations.

The two have been working together since October 2004 as part of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, headed by Gold, in order to advance the question of Israel's security needs in future negotiations.

Gold and Amidror's axiom is that beyond the Palestinian demographic problem and the international pressures exerted on Israel, decision-makers must prevent the loss of strategic land assets

According to their plan, Israel will not cede the Jordan Rift Valley in any future agreement, will widen the Tel Aviv - Jerusalem corridor, and will not concede the hills dominating Ben Gurion airport and the hills overlooking Hadera's power station.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3193168,00.html

[Englander]

15. I think I see why this Amidror guy would be popular down here -

'Friday, December 17, 2004
Amidror: Gaza will be shelter for Al-Qaida

By Itim Haaretz 17 December 2004

Major General (res.) Yaakov Amidror yesterday lambasted the disengagement
plan, saying it would turn Gaza into a "shelter for Al-Qaida."

Amidror made his comments in a speech at the Herzliya Conference.

A fierce argument erupted between Amidror and Sharon's senior adviser, Dov
Weisglass, during his address.

"The disengagement plan will turn Gaza into the only shelter state in the
world for the Al-Qaida organization," Amidror said.

Weisglass, one of the architects of the disengagement plan, retorted, "I
cannot and do not intend to compete with him in the ability to terrify and
make threats."

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=23264