Way to go Israel

[BoneDaddy]

Typically not a fan of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians, I am surprised to say that I applaud this most recent move.

HERZLIYA, Israel - Interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel would have to give up parts of the occupied West Bank to set a border with the Palestinians in his first policy speech since replacing Ariel Sharon. "In order to ensure the existence of a Jewish national home, we will not be able to continue ruling over the territories in which the majority of the Palestinian population lives," he said on Tuesday. Olmert was addressing the Herzliya security conference where Sharon first flagged last year's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.


http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict

[Ian David]

1. Remember Israeli soldiers forcing their own citizens out at gunpoint?

That was what... 2-3 months ago?

I'm glad you've started paying attention.

[MakeItSo]

3. 2 out of 3 Israelis support a 2 state solution

The peace movement is much more vibrant in Israel than it is in the US. Israel is much more politically diverse than the US.

I fear that people judge Israel, Israelis (and yes, Jews everywhere) based on the people in power there. It's analogous to us being judged solely on the basis of GW Bush.

On a side-note, American Jews voted overwhelmingly against GW Bush in both elections. Polls show that most oppose the Iraq War now and at no time supported the war any more than any other ethnic or religious group.

[Ian David]

6. Only 16% of Jews are Republicans. 22% of gays voted for Bush in 2004

And 2% of African Americans support Bush.

[BoneDaddy]

18. What?

I love the leap in logic. Because I am not a fan of Israeli policies I am now anti-jew? Guess some folks are above all criticism. What a nice secure place to be when you do nothing wrong...

I do agree that there is a large peace process in Israel and I am in full solidarity with them. I just don't get the "hands-off" view when Israel needs to be criticized. That would be like saying Bush is off limits because it would somehow mean we were judging the entire American public which is quite ridiculous.

[Coastie for Truth]

29. I am a long time political junkie - news junkie

been working campaigns - and even held elective office for >>40 years (with a break to avoid an Article 88 Court Martial), and grew up in three generation family where we always discussed news and politics at dinner.

My observation - and I am going back to the days of Mayor David lawrence - the Jewish community has always been more loyal to the Democratic Prty then any other Caucasian demographic, ALWAYS - ALWAYS - ALWAYS

[BoneDaddy]

19. Yes I remember

I do not appreciate the sarcasm. But as other posters have said, often what seems like a move in the right direction over there has resulted in one step forward three steps back. So, in your eyes, I am damned if I criticize Israel's decisions and I am damned if I give kudo's where they are do but it is not good enough. LOL

[Englander]

26. I don't remember that happening, when was that?

I can recall the removal of the settlers from Gaza, in August, but I can't
recall what you've described, when did that incident happen?

Did I miss something?

The only "guns" that were used fired blue paint.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/2005.stm

[RJnAbbysNana]

28. I think the poster just wanted to add a little drama..........

to get a few tears flowing and make people, (not myself, of course), feel sorry for the settlers who were there illegally to begin with.

Regards,

RJnAbbysNana

[TomInTib]

2. He must have found the Road Map. I have oft wondered ....

what happened to it.

[regnaD kciN]

4. Watch the terms being used...

Interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel would have to give up parts of the occupied West Bank to set a border with the Palestinians

What constitutes "parts?" 100% of that land is "occupied territory." Would "parts" equal 80%? 50%? 20%? Would it equal only small areas around the larger Palestinian cities, with no connections between them? Does it mean a series of "reservations" such as we find for Native American tribes, rather than a contiguous nation? What of the Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem? Agricultural land outside the Palestinian cities? The area's aquifers? Would it include keeping IDF checkpoints throughout the territories, controlling movement of Palestinians from one town to another?

Unless we know what "parts" means, it's impossible to judge Olmert's proposal.

[Ian David]

7. Well, I hope you've enjoyed a surprisingly long stay here on DU

Welcome to my ignore list.

[radio4progressives]

9. sheesh, what was that about? weird. n/t

[thebigidea]

13. what a strange, pointless thing to say

[High Plains]

15. Just curious...why did you "ignore" that poster above?

I didn't see anything even approaching offensive in that post.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Because that poster said something very moderate and intelligent...

n/t

[Poll_Blind]

33. Pointless... n/t

PB

[radio4progressives]

8. Important point...bears repeating... n/t

[gulfcoastliberal]

12. Yes, it's been "occupied" by jews for over 2 thousand years...

NT

[mom cat]

5. I wish I could be optimistic, but the dove has been killed too many times.

[MakeItSo]

10. Hope is an end unto itself

Don't forget that.

[mom cat]

17. I have had my hopes dashed on that rock once too often. I keep

wondering what the catch is.

[Josh]

11. Come on, do it, be optimistic!

I am, for the first time in a while.

Well, I'm trying to be.

[mom cat]

16. I will let you hold the hope on this one....I hope you are right.

[BoneDaddy]

20. True but..

it is only fair to give credit where credit is due.

[manic expression]

14. Sorry

but Israel has a long history of going against promises. Actions do not meet words in these cases. Remember when Israel said it wasn't controlling the borders of Gaza anymore? Well, lo and behold, a few weeks later and they were threatening to close Gaza's borders again.

In reality, this will most likely come to little. Even IF they do something like this, you can bet your bottom dollar there will be many strings attached, strings that benefit Israel alone.

(sorry for my cynicism, but if you look at Israel's history, that is the clear pattern)

[BoneDaddy]

21. I understand your cynicism...

I just think this is something you don't simply give up on. There is enough scum on both sides who are trying very hard to undermine the entire process. I applaud this move. Perhaps one day it will work.

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. I wonder if this will be anything like the Camp David offer?

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations

By Seth Ackerman

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

snip:


"Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new “independent state” would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called “bypass roads” that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank"

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Good for you!

One doesn't have to like all of Israel's policies, but it is nice to see her accomplishments recognized without it being labeled a big conspiracy. The same should be done when accomplishments come from the PA. However, there are a few who simply hate Israel so much that they will never see any good.

[RJnAbbysNana]

30. It's called "conditioned response," not necessarily "hatred."

What do you expect after 58 years of continuous lies and watching Israel steal Palestinian land, destroy Palestinian property, and kill innocent Palestinian men, women and children. If it was your land stolen, your property destroyed and your family members killed, wouldn't you feel animosity against the person/s perpetrating such acts?

Regards,

RJnAbbysNana

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Some hate is conditioned.

[Tom Joad]

24. There is reason for hope, but not from Olmert's policies of dispossession.

Israel continues to demolish homes, build a wall (in the West Bank... not along the green line)that will destroy Palestinian communities.
See for example http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=112840&mesg_id=112840

The "State" that olmert will "generously offer" to the Palestinians (on a take it or leave it basis) will not in anyway be viable for the Palestinians, who will be stuck in what amounts to Bantustans... small contained areas separated from each other by Israeli settlements...or the annexation wall. (nelson mandela spent many extra years behind bars because he did not accept such an offer of limited sovereignty in bantustans. We didn't call him an extremist.)

If you want something to lift your spirits about the situation, see this.
Israel breaks up West Bank barrier protest
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x112666

Palestinians, Israeli peaceniks, and internationals, marching together to stop the wall, and save a village. together, we might make it through to real justice, and real peace.

[gonzo8]

31. Actually, I think we did! Well at least DICK Cheney, that sack of manure.

(nelson mandela spent many extra years behind bars because he did not accept such an offer of limited sovereignty in bantustans. We didn't call him an extremist.)

In 1986, Cheney, along with 145 Republicans and 31 Democrats, voted against a nonbinding Congressional resolution calling on the South African government to release Nelson Mandela from prison, after the majority Democrats defeated proposed amendments to the language that would have required Mandela to renounce violence sponsored by the ANC and requiring the ANC to oust the Communist faction from leadership. The resolution was defeated.<7> Appearing on CNN during the Presidential campaign in 2000, Cheney addressed criticism for this, saying he opposed the resolution because the ANC "at the time was viewed as a terrorist organization and had a number of interests that were fundamentally inimical to the United States."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney

[The_Farouk]

27. WOW!

They are going to give up "parts" of the West Bank. Let Freedom ring, time to pack it up and go home cause justice is around the corner.....

[Matilda]

34. Repeat of Oslo and the failed Camp David summit.

Israel will agree to give back small parts of the lands it has stolen
from the Palestinians in return for a few mounds of dirt somewhere
else. And when the Palestinians decline the offer, they will be
castigated for refusing such a generous offer.

The legal border was set by the United Nations, and there's no valid
reason why the Palestinians should settle for less.