Ideology not dead

[occuserpens]

Imagine somebody from the Western left saying this in open...

Shulamit Aloni. Ideology not dead. Racism, Mussolini-style fascism still part of our society

The strange phenomenon of the Kadima party has caused many speakers - including senior journalists - to declare an end to ideology.

But while it is certainly true that this is a strange phenomenon, especially in the face of the absence of a party platform or any landmarks, and in light of the emotional outpouring for the party and for Ariel Sharon.

... it is hard to say that the heads of Kadima have no ideas of their own. Ehud Olmert's public appearances point clearly to certain direction, and we can assume that path will be clearly defined in the future.

Netanyahu's Likud is certainly an ideological party, banding together the "Likud rebels" who fought the Gaza disengagement plan - Uzi Landau, Yisrael Katz, Danny Naveh - and is certainly ideological both economically and politically.

And what about the behavior of the Gush Emunim (Block of the Faithful) group and its rabbis who steal land that doesn't belong them, steal water from children, break the law, and rebel against the country, all in the name of God and His messiah.

If we are honest, we must admit that a significant number of Israel's political parties douse themselves in the sweet smell of fascism, reminiscent of Benito Mussolini.

As he said, "Fascism believes in holiness and strength - it rejects the possibility of equality, and happiness as a result of social welfare. For us fascists, the State is a spiritual and ethical fact in and of itself, it represents the consciousness embedded deep within the nation... the goal of expanding the nation is a basic expression of vitality, and the opposite - is a sign of atrophy."

[pelsar]

1. all religious fanatics...

are facists at heart....just as the extreme left is and the extreme right...the jewish fanatics are as facist as the iranians "revolutionary guards...as facists as the extreme left.....

[Behind the Aegis]

2. Ironically, I have to say...AMEN! n/t

[melody]

3. Somebody already said amen, so I'll say yea verily n/t

[Englander]

4. So, you agree with the writer?

That must severely limit your choice for the upcoming elections, shurely?

_______________________

"...If we are honest, we must admit that a significant number of Israel's political parties douse themselves in the sweet smell of fascism, reminiscent of Benito Mussolini.

As he said, "Fascism believes in holiness and strength – it rejects the possibility of equality, and happiness as a result of social welfare. For us fascists, the State is a spiritual and ethical fact in and of itself, it represents the consciousness embedded deep within the nation…the goal of expanding the nation is a basic expression of vitality, and the opposite – is a sign of atrophy."

____________________


:)

[pelsar]

5. sure i do...with shulamit

being on the "left" doesnt always including being niave or living in a fantasy world.....of "all we have to do is have good karma and they wont shoot us".....

actually the choices are quite interesting this time around: kadima, labor or meretz

(i personally despise the extreme settlers of hebron or kfar tabpuach far more than any palestenian hamasnikim....but i'll also defend his pathetic ass from that same hamasnikim)

[Englander]

6. Er, pelsar?

I think one of the parties Aloni's referring to is Kadima. It reads to me like
the writer is asking which ideology Kadima, & Likud are pursing, & one of her
answers is;

_______________


'Racism, fascism and transfer are all ideologies.'

__________________


It surprises me, really that you would agree with this writer, I'm having trouble
reconciling the views I've seen in this writers articles, with the views I've seen
posted in this forum.

[pelsar]

7. kadima....

still up in the air...if they're being pragmatic without the ideology?...its made up of left right and center...(racism, facism and transfer are all part and parcel of the same ideology....)

perhaps your noticing that israeli politics are not simply "right/left/center.

I'm quite typical....

i've donated to the palestenian in the past...and also partake in the occupation, and have protested it, attempt to comfort my friend tossed out of gaza...and Iwill be very excited to work with the palestenains in the future (as i almost did during oslo)....and will still shoot when some attempt to jump the fence in gaza.....thats the real world of the middle east, very messy.

[Englander]

23. That's not relevant to your stated claim to supporting Aloni.

I can't see anything in those comments that would lead me to think
that anyone holding those views would also be a fan of Aloni. I find it
surprising that all this claimed support of the writers views is being
expressed, the support is not coming from the expected quarters, really.
As I said, all the opinions I've seen in this forum seem to me to be
incompatible with the views I've read in Aloni's articles.

[bemildred]

8. "Big Man" politics is the same, whatever you call it.

And regardless of the gender of the "Big Man".

It is unusual to get such a loon as Hitler, even Genghis knew his limits, but otherwise whether it's Franco or Peron or Mussolini or Stalin or Mao or Sharon, it's all pretty much the same deal. Of course some do a better job than others, and history is just littered with them. In fact you could say that a great deal of history is the biography of the various Big Men as they come and go.

What I find interesting is that Sharon chose once again to drive right off the cliff, not taking any steps to arrange for his demise, staying in denial right up to the end, the last possible minute, despite what must have been a quite clear prognosis known for some time before his collapse.

[pelsar]

9. taking the "blame sharon to the extreme?

not taking any steps to arrange for his demise, staying in denial right up to the end .....and where does this information come from...?...any sources that i might read up upon?

[bemildred]

10. Better if you would supply something on the steps he took to arrange

for his political departure. I have not seen any, but that does not
mean he made none. Perhaps they were just not carried out when the time
came. In that case, I suppose I've been unfair to him.

The thing is, in the aftermath of his first stroke, the spin I saw was
all business as usual, no need to panic, and in the aftermath of the
second massive one all the public focus was on hope for recovery,
until that hope faded. What I would have expected and hoped for was an
immediate process to prepare the public for his impending departure
right after the first stroke, or even sooner. And I still have not seen
that, so I'm inferring there was no such plan or effort prepared
beforehand.

[pelsar]

11. its actually gone quite smoothly...

theres been no interuption of the govt, nor of the coming elections..kadima is still moving ahead with its plans....the acting PM seems to be filling in the shoes (rumors have it that gaza was his idea).........no one here that i know of is worried that israel will fall apart if sharon lives or dies....or that kadima will survive without him....it seems to be doing just fine.

[bemildred]

12. Ah, so I guess he wasn't very important after all. No big deal. nt

[pelsar]

13. we have a saying here...

the cemetary is full of people who are indispensable....

[bemildred]

14. Or who would have liked to think so, indeed.

I think it's a bit early to predict how smooth everything is going to go, we're just getting around to admitting the great helmsman is not coming back to guide us. Bring it up in a year or so and we can argue about how wrong I was. There are procedures to be sure. Olmert is not a fool. But, I was commenting on what Mr. Sharon did or did not choose to do about it before he suffered his unfortunate acute medical emergencies. As far as I can tell the answer is not much. Perhaps he just had faith in the system.

[pelsar]

16. ???

i find this rather absurd....what exactly did he NOT do?.....what didnt Olmert know?...In a year, everything will be different here, what has to do with Sharons medical condition, new leaders, different decisions...i find this whole thesis to be not just without any basis but even wonder why it was even brought up?.....

[bemildred]

17. This is a discussion board?

Like, we discuss things here?

So it appears to me that Sharon must have been told some time ago that his prognosis sucked.
I.e., that he was going to die soon.

And, it also seems to me that, being a responsible leader who cares about the future of his nation, he ought to have taken steps to provide for a smooth "transition", or even better to have initiated an orderly transition while he was still around to help out. He might even have lived longer that way. Stress is bad for you. And it appears to me that he didn't do that. And that seems morally reprehensible in him to me.

[pelsar]

18. exactly what steps...

if you have some information that has led you to believe that sharon didnot take step for the "transition" perhaps you would like to write it out?

how does it "appear" that sharon knew he was going to have a stroke?....what information?

and how has the transition NOT been orderly, what exactly is not working?

[bemildred]

31. Start with telling the truth.

Sharon's condition 'concealed'
24/01/2006 13:47 - (SA)

Jerusalem - Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's health problems were more serious than doctors let on after he had a minor stroke in December, including a large aneurysm in the septum between the chambers of his heart, said reports on Tuesday.

The reports said Sharon, comatose since having a massive second stroke on January 4, also suffered from a shunt that caused blood to flow in the wrong direction through a tiny hole in the septum that he was born with.

The reports said the aneurysm was a known source of cerebral blood clots. The prime minister also had other conditions in the cardiac septum that made him vulnerable to blood clots that could enter his brain.

Sharon's condition 'generally good'

After the first stroke, on December 18, which was caused by a small blood clot, Sharon's neurologist, Dr Tamir Ben-Hur, said the prime minister's overall condition was generally good, except for his obesity.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1868444,00.html

But it really isn't up to me to tell him what to do, I don't run the Israeli Government, and he did. The point is that he apparently did nothing. You seem to feel that's responsible, I don't.

[pelsar]

38. if he did nothing...

which to you have said is "apparent"..then usually things go bad, things dont work....perhaps i can be enlightened as to which govt failings happened that are "apparent?...i dont see the events...perhaps a list?

[bemildred]

39. Please see post #33. nt

[pelsar]

44. whats to prepare?

the israeli public hardly panicked.....no demonstrations "crying out"....a virgil was held by the hospital, no more than that. News reports ad naseum of his condition analysed over and over again......when his second stroke happend it was obvious to all that, he was done as PM....there were already TV specials on his life etc.....

perhaps it a culture thing:

the Israeli public is very used to death, leaders come and go, and new ones take their place, death doesnt surprise us and our govt is well equiped, especially since much of our govt is made up of ex military people who are very well experienced with dealing with personal changes at inopportune moments...

as per this example, to carry on with out even a "bump" in the process.

[Colorado Blue]

19. Oh my word.

"What I find interesting is that Sharon chose once again to drive right off the cliff, not taking any steps to arrange for his demise, staying in denial right up to the end, the last possible minute, despite what must have been a quite clear prognosis known for some time before his collapse."

Wow. Not taking steps to ARRANGE FOR HIS DEMISE? WTF?

Meanwhile, I wouldn't worry too much. The Israeli government is holding together just fine, in spite of all the ill wishes.

[Englander]

21. Isn't that common sense?

He was, what, 78, overweight, under enormous stress, had already had
one stroke, was diagnosed with a hole in the heart & was scheduled for
a major operation. I'd say making arrangements for an orderly transition
of power should the inevitable occur would be a very wise course of action.

[pelsar]

22. what exactly

was not orderly...where is the chaos?...the disorder?.....what arrangements were NOT made?

[Englander]

24. Hugh!1!

Nice strawman. Sorry, not playing. If you want to address what I actually
said, please feel free to try again.

:)

[pelsar]

25. your wrote:

I'd say making arrangements for an orderly transition
of power should the inevitable occur would be a very wise course of action.
__________________________

and i ask: what arrangements were NOT made for an orderly transition.....

[Englander]

26. You're missing the point.

Which is fair enough, though bemildred has already gone over this, I see.
If you don't want to try & understand what we're attempting to communicate,
that's fair enough, but it is getting a bit old, as they say.

The point I am trying to make is that it would have been wise for Sharon
to consider resigning, or to make plans for resigning, or to consider calling
an election, when he suffered the first stroke, when the full seriousness of
his medical diagnosis was self-evident. At some point it should have been
obvious that he was at serious risk of having a potentially fatal stroke,
or heart attack, & that should have been the point at which he exited the
stage.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

28. yes i still dont understand...

elections are in a few months.... isnt that the same as "calling for elections'....

making plans for resigning....and you have information that he did or didnt?


lets be more precise: what was the event(s) that lead you (bemildred) to believe that there is a problem in the israeli govt without sharon?..when sharon had his stroke, what failed to work, perhaps if you pinpoint the exact problem area i can understand.......

[bemildred]

33. Yup, everything is just ducky.

I'm sure there was no need to prepare for change.

[Colorado Blue]

34. How the heck do you know preparations WEREN'T made?

Oy.

Power was transferred smoothly, elections will proceed on schedule, the centralist party is apparently continuing to hold a substantial majority.

What could throw a monkey-wrench into the works is the election of Hamas. That in fact might resurrect the hard right. But even Sharon might not have been able to prevent that, if in fact it even happens.

Meanwhile I'm sort of baffled by your comments. Should I write a note to Arik's family, and let them know he should have have warned everybody he intended to have a devastating stroke on that particular date, and also chastise him for "blindly driving off a cliff once more"?

For pete's sake.

[pelsar]

37. the event(s)????

which events has led you to believe that sharon did not prepare his "cabinet" etc for his possible demise...please be specific.

[bemildred]

40. WTF are you talking about?

I said NOTHING about events.
It is rather the ABSENCE of events that I refer to.

It was all "he's fine, he's starting a new party, blah blah blah" right up until he keeled over, and then you had Olmert standing there for days like a deer in the headlights trying to decide if he should grab the reins or not. And let's not get into the recent election the Palestinians just held. That was handled really well. I have nothing in particular against Olmert, getting this shit dumped in his lap, but you can't tell me he was all up and running, ready to go, when Sharon keeled over, that nobody was taken aback.

But let it go, if it pleases you to think this was all handled really well, then by all means enjoy your fantasy.

[pelsar]

41. now i understand...because NOTHING happend

because when sharon had his stroke....absolutly NOTHING happened within the israeli govt, no chaos, no changes, no panics, no events, just patence to see the outcome...

and THATS why its obvious to some that Sharon did not prepare for his demise.....

and when it became clear that he was not coming back and Olmert took over....he did it in such a smooth way that it was barly noticed....hence the conclusion that sharon did not prepare for his demise...

_____________

i admit, it sure is an interesting way of looking at things:

nothing happend, no chaos, no policy upheavals...and the conclusion is that the leader did NOT prepare his govt for his leaving.

I wonder what a govt that was prepared would have "looked like"....perhaps an example would be in order?

[barb162]

42. Unless you somehow know what Olmert thinks and feels

perhaps you shouldn't attribute your own projections ("Olmert standing there ...trying to decide ....") on him. Perhaps he was terribly saddened, perhaps he was thinking of his new burdens, perhaps something else, like that's his natural expression, who knows?

Order of Succession was followed by the Israeli cabinet and turnover of power went smoothly.

[eyl]

45. Not to mention

that until Sharon's condition was clear, his taking over as full PM (i.e., not in a caretaker fashion, which is what he did) would have looked like taking advantage of Sharon's condition...

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Were you there?

"...despite what must have been a quite clear prognosis known for some time before his collapse."

Have read any of the recent articles about this very topic? The doctors are being 'blamed' for not diagnosing the situation correctly, after his first mini-stroke. So, if they didn't know, how does it stand to reason the Sharon should have known and made plans?

[bemildred]

32. Here, this one has some juicy bits:

Update 23: Sharon Shows More Improvement in Recovery
By JOSEF FEDERMAN , 01.10.2006, 01:22 PM


---

Also, an Israeli newspaper reported that Sharon was suffering from a brain disease that, in combination with the blood thinners he started taking after an initial stroke Dec. 18, could have increased his risk for another stroke.

The Haaretz daily said doctors had not discovered the disease, called cerebral amyloid angiopathy, when they treated Sharon for the first stroke. But Mor-Yosef said doctors did know about it.

---

"This protein, amyloid ... is deposited in the walls of the arteries, and it makes the walls of the arteries much more fragile and liable to rupture," he said. "And very often, there is a high risk of recurrent bleeding."

---

Before the stroke, Sharon had been expected to handily win re-election in March 28 parliamentary balloting, then use his third term to try to draw Israel's final borders by pulling out of large parts of the West Bank and completing a separation barrier with the Palestinians.

http://www.forbes.com/business/energy/feeds/ap/2006/01/10/ap2440972.html

[Jim Sagle]

35. Just because you were barred from the funeral is no reason to get snippy.

;-)

[bemildred]

36. he's not dead yet:

Contrary to other reports, Idi Amin is not quite dead, just in a coma as I reported (with somewhat of a sneer on my face) last night.

I have to say, i'm just glad to see that no one came out last night to defend Amin. I guess there are some people who are undefendable*
indefensible. Good to know.

http://asmallvictory.net/archives/003947.html

[Tom Joad]

15. Speaking of Italian fascists, Sharon embraced them.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D677FCD1-9341-405C-AD2C-93E52E8DB77A.htm

Israeli government officials and opposition leaders have met the leader of Italy's neo-fascist National Alliance party, Gianfranco Fini.

Fini, who is also Italy’s deputy prime minister, arrived on an official visit to Israel on Sunday night. The visit has drawn harsh criticism from leftist politicians and Palestinians.

On Monday, he met with Israeli President Moshe Katsav, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom as well as opposition leader Shimon Peres.
more.......

Those late-model brown shirts sure got the red carpet treatment. I suppose it was the ideological kinship.

[eyl]

29. Please remember your outrage

when the time comes for you to condemn Israeli leaders for refusing to meet with a Hamas PM...

[barb162]

43. Sharon couldn't refuse meeting the Italian deputy prime minister

if he wanted to keep diplomatic relations moving along nicely with Italy.

From your 2003 link
“You know (Israeli Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon is a close friend of (Italian Prime Minister Silvio) Berlusconi, and he can’t refuse to receive his deputy in Israel,” he added.

[eyl]

30. As is her wont

Aloni slams everybody to the right of her, but is very light on the specifics. (Or maybe it's just her habit of jumping around that leads to this impression) For example, she writes

Even so, it is still tough to say this party (Kadima) is completely devoid of ideology. After all, "ideology" suggests the party presents some social, moral and political outlook. Racism, fascism and transfer are all ideologies.

Except that she doesn't bother to point out what exactly in Kadima's ideology comprises "racism, fascism, and transfer" - instead, she switches to talk about Gush Emunim. The closest she comes is to describe (sort of) various Israeli policies in Jerusalem (and this discussion is under the Likud, not Kadima) - all of which predate Kadima by years, and which are not quite as she describes them*. She states "If we are honest, we must admit that a significant number of Israel's political parties douse themselves in the sweet smell of fascism, reminiscent of Benito Mussolini.", but neglects to name even one of those "significant number of parties". And so on.

*For example, she states that "they make things so hard for the Arabs that they are forced to transfer themselves "; but AFAIK Jerusalems Arab population is increasing