Hamas: We will not sell our people or principles for foreign aid

[occuserpens]

GU. Khalid Mish'al. We will not sell our people or principles for foreign aid

The day Hamas won the Palestinian democratic elections the world's leading democracies failed the test of democracy. Rather than recognise the legitimacy of Hamas as a freely elected representative of the Palestinian people, seize the opportunity created by the result to support the development of good governance in Palestine and search for a means of ending the bloodshed, the US and EU threatened the Palestinian people with collective punishment for exercising their right to choose their parliamentary representatives.

Hamas has been elected mainly because of its immovable faith in the inevitability of victory; and Hamas is immune to bribery, intimidation and blackmail. While we are keen on having friendly relations with all nations we shall not seek friendships at the expense of our legitimate rights. We have seen how other nations, including the peoples of Vietnam and South Africa, persisted in their struggle until their quest for freedom and justice was accomplished. We are no different, our cause is no less worthy, our determination is no less profound and our patience is no less abundant.
We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else's sins or solve somebody else's problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms.

[pelsar]

1. at least we know where they stand:

immovable faith in the inevitability of victory;
.
We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else's sins or solve somebody else's problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce,
_______________

and when does that truce end?.....a country that has long term plans of exterminating its neighbor has no place on this earth......

[Violet_Crumble]

2. So it's okay to call for the extermination of Palestine?

a country that has long term plans of exterminating its neighbor has no place on this earth......

Considering that Israel for a hell of a long time refused to acknowledge the existence of the Palestinian people, and the Likud Charter claimed the West Bank as part of Israel, using the logic you used it could be easily argued that Israel had no place on this earth....

Violet...

[pelsar]

8. 2006

welcome to today: israel is not calling for the extermination of any country: the govt of iran is,the govt of the palestine are ( hamas )

you dont see a problem with that?

your attempt at "moral equivalency doesnt work, Jan 2006


i would guess i dont have to point out the difference between extermination and destruction of an existing state vs non recognition

[Englander]

9. That's not what you said, originally.

Here, I'll remind you of the original claim;

--a country that has long term plans of exterminating its neighbor has no place on this earth.--

I thought you needed reminding, since there wasn't any mention of any 'calls', there
wasn't any mention of any rhetoric, only the 'long term plan', which could most definitely
apply to the actions of successive Isreali governments. Their long term plan has been to
stop the existance of one of their neighbours.

[pelsar]

10. hamas...

are you confused with their plans?....they're pretty clear about it

read their charter

the israeli govt just gave the palestenains gaza....thats the opposite of "stop the existance"

[Englander]

13. You're confusing rhetoric with action.

Anyway, I thought you didn't believe what Hamas said?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x113749#114072



--the israeli govt just gave the palestenains gaza.--

No, they didn't. Fantasy = not reality.

The reality is that;

'..Israel still exercises full control over Gaza's airspace, sea space and land borders with Israel as well as its electricity, water, sewage and telecommunications networks and population registry.'

Which you appear to have forgotten.

[pelsar]

24. reality?

(the palestenains have their own cell network...another "blame israel" complaint, shot down....

seems hard to remember that the gaza has its own border to egypt, can use their electricit, sewer system and water...they just prefer israels (also it reall ruins the "blame israel, the palestenains cant do anything narration)

as far as trusting hamas? i dont, nor do i trust iran, but when they say there goal is to kill me, i do take that seriously.

[eyl]

18. I see

please describe where Israel has a long term plan of exterminating the Palestinians.

[Englander]

21. Why?

It's not what I claimed. The phrase I used was short-hand for;

Forty- plus years of brutal occupation, acquisition of resources, building illegal
settlements in those occupied terrorities, building illegal checkpoints in those ot,
destroying various properties & natural resources in those ot, &tc, &tc, &tc.
Or 'facts on the ground'.

[eyl]

26. What you claimed

a country that has long term plans of exterminating its neighbor has no place on this earth.--

I thought you needed reminding, since there wasn't any mention of any 'calls', there
wasn't any mention of any rhetoric, only the 'long term plan', which could most definitely
apply to the actions of successive Isreali governments. Their long term plan has been to
stop the existance of one of their neighbours.

The word "stop" refers to undoing a present situation. Given that that situation is the existence of a Palestinian people without the existence of a Palestinian state, the existence of who is Israel trying to stop?

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Actually, you don't...

It was pelsar that expressed the opinion that it was okay to destroy Palestine. btw, Israel had for a very long time refused to acknowledge the existence of the Palestinian people and the Likud Charter expressly stated that the West Bank was part of Israel. Do you need something to have been written back then saying: 'We (Israel) has a long term plan of exterminating Palestine?'

Violet....

[eyl]

27. I don't what?

Anyway, given that Palestine has never existed as a sovereign state, your statement is still incorrect. You could possibly say that Israel had a long-term plan to prevent the existence of a Palestinian state, but that's not the same thing as "exterminating" it - which was the original claim. And therefore, the situation does not have the symmetry you claim.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. You didn't see...

Considering pelsar made the comment talking about Palestine as a country in post #1, take it up with him, not me. I chose not to as I'm aware he knows that Palestine is not yet a sovereign state and didn't want to appear to be nit-picking and overly pedantic...

As I already told you, it was pelsar, not the current Israeli govt that made a comment that can be read as calling for the destruction of another country: 'a country that has long term plans of exterminating its neighbor has no place on this earth......' Unless the world changed while I was at work and pelsar IS the Israeli govt, I think yr not getting the gist of what's going on in this particular exchange between pelsar and I....

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

12. I take it you won't ever refer to the past when it comes to the conflict?

Because I'll hold you to that, pelsar.

You seem to have forgotten what you just said, which was calling for the destruction of another country, and something I find just as abhorrent as calls for the destruction of Israel:

'a country that has long term plans of exterminating its neighbor has no place on this earth'

Anyone who doesn't find that just as disgusting as calling for the extermination of Israel has no place insisting that others should find it disgusting only when the call is aimed at Israel...

Violet...

[Englander]

14. Yeah, it was abhorrent

I think I've been down here so long, that I didn't even realise at first
how repugnant the sentiments were. I've seen so many similar comments I
didn't comprehend what was being said.

But, at least the poster expressed his honest opinion, these sentiments, sadly,
sound more credible than any claims involving Aloni, or 'peaceniks'.

[pelsar]

28. still stands...

hamas plans long term on removing israel.....I dont believe i've ever read where the govt of israel has called for the elimination of the palestenain socity.

Iran has said it very clearly, Hamas has said it very clearly......where has the israeli govt said such a thing about the palestenains?

something to the effect of " we shall remove the palestenain society from the map, or perhaps show me the govt of israels long term plans to remove the palestenians from the westbank, especially since their populuation has increased or gaza? (be a bit odd since gazas now "jew/israeli free")

________________________________

the past has it uses but when comparing its best to use the same years: not one past and one present. i.e. israels present policy to the palestenaisn present policy. it would be rather foolish (as you are doing) to compare a policy of 20years ago for israel vs a Hamas policy of today as if they both exist today.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. And it's still totally disgusting...

Please don't expect me to take anything said complaining about calls to destroy Israel seriously when you can't see that calling for the destruction of any country, not just Israel, is really wrong. fwiw, I probably find it more wrong because I like and respect you, whereas if one or two other folk who I hold no respect for were to say it, I'd find it predictable and pathetic...

Pelsar, Golda Meir openly denied the existence of the Palestinian people. What more do you want??

btw, Hamas hasn't called for the elimination of Israeli society, and I never claimed that Israel had called for the elimination of Palestinian society...

Actually, it wasn't foolish at all to point out that Israel's policy of refusing to acknowledge the existence of the Palestinian people, and the Likud Charter claiming all of the West Bank as part of Israel (and that Charter was still standing with those words in it as far back in history as early last year), is exactly the same sort of thing that people are getting all upset at Hamas about now. Yet it's a very safe bet that not one of those folk would have done anything but strongly defend Israel's right to say those things (y'know, that convenient freedom of expression!!!! argument). They're hypocrites...

What I think is foolish is to pretend that unless there's a clear and very publicised plan of doing wrong, then it hasn't and won't happen. Actions are way more important than words, wouldn't you agree?

Violet...

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Oh yes he did...

I saw it because what he said was crystal clear and can only be missed if one keeps their eyes firmly closed when 'reading'...

btw, seeing I didn't say Israel should be exterminated, yet you claim in the same post that a clear call for the extermination of Palestine doesn't exist, I think everyone reading will understand why I don't give a toss about ridiculous opinions such as the one you expressed, as nothing that's said is going to change yr preconcieved and imo not very logical opinion of me...

Violet...

[Lasher]

3. So the US should donate money to Hamas?

America should give money to Hamas, so they can use it to blow up more childern in Israel? I must have missed the part where you justified that.

Palestinians, in a fair election, made a bad choice. Stop pretending you didn't know the US and EU wouldn't like it when you selected a terrorist organization to run your government. You made your choice, and you have only yourselves to thank for the consequences.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. How many suicide bombings do you think Hamas carried out in the past year?

The answer to that is zero, so why are you talking as though that is what Hamas does now?

Violet...

[Lasher]

5. How many people has Charles Manson killed in the past year?

None, so why would anybody call him a murder?

[Violet_Crumble]

6. So you talk about Manson as though he's still murdering people?

Because that's exactly what you did with Hamas. And it makes any claims that Hamas would use any funding to blow up Israeli kiddies look like the clumsy attempt at overwraught emotion that it is...



Violet...

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. You definately implied Hamas was currently carrying out attacks...

And a correction for you - I did not imply that Hamas isn't a terrorist organisation. What I did was point out to you that yr claim that they'd use any funding to carry out bombings of Israeli kiddies to be completely ridiculous as you were ignoring the fact that Hamas hasn't carried out any attacks over the past year...

btw, resorting to insults really isn't the most effective way of trying to get any point yr trying to make across...

Violet...

[Lasher]

16. OK, I say Hamas is a terrorist organization

You have not objected to that assessment. You assert, however, that they can be trusted to refrain from future terrorist acts, basing your assumption on a claim that they have been inactive in this respect for one year. This is one of the silliest arguments I have ever seen set forth!

I am not ignoring anything, it is you who is guilty of that. Please try to grasp this simple concept: Your alleged one year of inactivity certainly does not change Hamas from a terrorist organization into a pillar of the global community. A murderer is still a murderer, no matter how long he goes between killings.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Maybe you should focus on what I'm actually saying...

Saying that I've said something else and then saying it's silly is, well, pretty silly...
What I have said is that Hamas have NOT carried out attacks over the past year, and that yr claim that they would use funding to carry out attacks is ridiculous. It's not me who's making the claim they definately will do something - it's you who's doing that. Also, I haven't claimed that Hamas will turn into a pillar of the global community, so could you possibly stick to what I have said?


A murderer is still a murderer? So, I take it then that you'd agree that Sharon is a murderer, and that nothing changes that?

Violet...

[Lasher]

25. I have been listening real hard

But the problem is, you're just not saying anything. You just keep repeating the same things over and over. I say Hamas, a terrorist organization, can not be trusted to refrain from doing what terrorist organizations do. You say my claim is ridiculous. I don't think it is.

And, check out the evidence just offered by Behind the Aegis in this message thread. Looks like the central point of your argument is nothing but a lie.

You seem to want to convince me that Hamas can be trusted. That's just not going to happen.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Nah, you haven't...

I've been crystal clear about what I've been saying, and if I have to repeat something, it's because flurries of insults lead me to think that no attention was being paid to what I initially said. For the record, I have NOT been trying to convince you that Hamas can be trusted, mainly coz I don't care whether yr average American trusts Hamas or not. What I've been trying to tell you is that anyone who speaks with certainty about what Hamas would do with funds is fooling themselves. Also, what I didn't mention was that I find the attitude expressed in that initial post of the Palestinian people deserve bad shit to happen to them coz I'm pissed off that they didn't vote for someone else (who I would have swiftly called terrorists anyway).

To make it easier I'll summarise what I've been saying:

* I pointed out that yr strong implication that Hamas have been carrying out suicide-bombings recently was incorrect.

* Any claim that Hamas would use funding to start suicide-bombings isn't based in any sort of reality and logic, but in a desire to keep the 'bad guys' as bad as they possibly can in their Black And White - No Shades Of Grey Allowed world that I've noticed some less well-informed American commentators reside in.

* I don't think it's possible with any degree of certainty to say what Hamas will or won't do.

* I have never claimed Hamas wasn't a terrorist group, likewise I've never claimed Hamas is or will be a pillar of the global community.

* I can't and won't read anything offered by Behind The Aegis, as I put him on ignore a long while back. If you have some 'proof' that Hamas have indeed carried out suicide bombings over the past twelve months, feel free to post it yrself.

Finally, something to ponder. There are more than a few reasons why I will never have a high opinion of Hamas, their religious crap being a main one. Having said that, I find the knee-jerking and frothing at the mouth of some folk to be totally out of proportion and verging on some group hysteria thing...

Violet...

[eyl]

39. The post BTA was referring to

was mine, at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=113620&mesg_id=114173

I fail to see the reason for this fixation on suicide bombings. Does it matter whether the bombings (As per your post #11) are carried out with bombs carried in on foot or delivered "express" by rocket? The bottom line is that despite the truce Hamas has committed attacks aimed at Israeli civilians; I fail to see the importance as to the specific means used to the question of whether it can be trusted not to attack in the future (which was the point under discussion).

[Violet_Crumble]

40. Don't blame me for someone else going on about suicide-bombings...

The guy in this post started it http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=114124&mesg_id=114129 Go talk to him about fixation. As with the post where you took me to task for something pelsar had actually said, I'm just replying to what the other poster raised....

Save me the time and trouble and give me a yes or no answer as to whether that particular thread of yrs gives any evidence of Hamas carrying out suicide-bombings in the past year. If it doesn't, you can start another discussion somewhere else if you feel it's so important. btw, trying to claim qassams are aimed at anything, given their shonky aim, is really pushing the envelope...

Violet...

[eyl]

43. The post you cite never mentioned

suicide bombing - it could just as easily refer to a Qassam, even if you insist on taking it at the most literal level.

You can't claim Hamas is trustworthy because it maintained a truce when - as I've shown - it's violated that truce more than once. Whether or not one of the forms of violation was sucide bombing is totally irrelevent, as is the Qassams' accuracy or lack thereof. (unless someone wants to claim that Hamas is deliberately shooting to miss?)

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Gosh, maybe I insist on reading things how they were obviously meant...

And what they said was: 'so they can use it to blow up more childern in Israel?'

If they were talking about qassam attacks, they would have said something like 'fired rockets at'.

How many times do I have to repeat the same thing? I did NOT claim that Hamas was trustworthy. And if you want to include every act of violence over the past year, make sure you don't forget those violent acts committed by Israel...

just came back to add this to the post, as the sentiments expressed in yr post about Hamas is exactly what I was referring to:

I find the refusal of some posters to see Hamas not carrying out suicide bombings over the past twelve months as a good or significant thing to be very ironic, seeing as how they're the same folk who think that Sharon's recent 'change' and the one-off unilateral withdrawal means that anything he did prior to that should be ignored while they hoist St. Sharon up on The Pedestal Of Peeece!!!!



Violet...

[eyl]

46. It's a good thing

But Hamas gets only limited credit for upholding a "truce" when it only refrained from specific types of acts, but did not stop lethal attacks.

But Lasher - both in the original post and in his subsequent ones - never specified suicide bombings, but rather attacks inside Israel. It's you that are insisting it refers only to suicide bombings.

As for the IDF - how is that relevent? We're talking about Hamas' capability/intent (or lack of it) to uphold a truce. And I find it ironic that posters who object to others referring to Palestinian misdeeds in response to Israeli ones do the same thing in reverse. Not to mention that the situation is totally assymetrical given that Hamas isn't the only Palestinian organization attacking ISrael, and most of the others haven't been showing the same (limited) restrain over the last year.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. do see this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=113620&mesg_id=114173

[barb162]

30. Hamas was certainly carrying out attacks in 2005

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/06/09/isrlpa11106.htm

Jerusalem, June 9, 2005) -- Hamas must cease immediately “Qassam” rocket and mortar attacks against civilian areas, Human Rights Watch said today.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. The implication was that there were suicide bombings...

If you go back through the thread, you'll notice that...

Violet...

[Lasher]

42. You were the one who said 'suicide bombings'

I used other terms throughout, which were not specific to "suicide bombings" It was only you who made that distinction. But I see I'm wasting my time debating this subject with you.

Well, I must say this has been fun, but I have better things to do now. I must say that this first, and probably last, visit to the I/P Forum has been a learning experience.

Edit: typo

[Violet_Crumble]

45. You said Hamas would blow up Israeli kids...

You were not referring to anything else but suicide bombings, else you would have pointed it out many posts before and not waited till now. I'd hope that learning experience included how to say things more clearly eg. if one intends to talk about all attacks to say 'all attacks' or 'attacks' rather than make specific comments and claim afterwards it wasn't what they meant...

Yr wasting yr time? Considering I've been repeatedly told I said things or was trying to do things I wasn't, I think I have a much better reason to complain about wasting time. Of couse I'm not inclined to make grandiose claims that my life is so important that I have heaps of better things to do, so due to keeping inactive to beat the heatwave, I'm currently wasting much more time on pointless things than I would on normal circumstances...

Violet...

[barb162]

29. How many rocket attacks, suicide bombings and other acts

of violence has Hamas committed over the last 5 years? Enough to qualify it as a terrorist group. Just because there is a so-called "truce" over some of 2005 doesn't mean anything has changed as to Hamas considering Israel as its enemy

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Please read the post I was replying to...

The poster made a strong implication that Hamas had not ceased carrying out suicide-bombings.

As I've already said that Hamas is a terrorist group, I'm not sure why yr arguing and saying they are as if I'd said they weren't...

Considering another party the enemy isn't a factor in what defines terrorism. Israel considers the Palestinians to be its enemy - in fact many of you have said that the Palestinians are the enemy and that there's a war. Does that mean you think yr all terrorists as well?

In short, I find the refusal of some posters to see Hamas not carrying out suicide bombings over the past twelve months as a good or significant thing to be very ironic, seeing as how they're the same folk who think that Sharon's recent 'change' and the one-off unilateral withdrawal means that anything he did prior to that should be ignored while they hoist St. Sharon up on The Pedestal Of Peeece!!!!

Violet...

[barb162]

31. The question is how many acts of all kinds of violence did Hamas

commit against Israel? Suicide bombings do not by any stretch tell the whole story. And just because a calm was declared by Hamas doesn't mean they stopped other kinds of attacks.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. The Israeli Defense Minister disagrees with you about what Hamas will do..

and surprisingly I do think his opinions are probably a bit better informed than Americans posting on the internet with their opinions...

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said Sunday that since its victory in the elections for the Palestinian Legislative Council last week, Hamas has been acting responsibly.

Hamas has executed scores of attacks which claimed the lives of hundreds of Israeli civilians and security forces in suicide bombings since its creation in 1987.

Speaking at the weekly cabinet meeting, Mofaz said he believed Hamas will try to curb terror in the short term, echoing a widely held assessment.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/675821.html

[barb162]

32. Yes, since last Wednesday Hamas is cooling it

and I also believe "Hamas will try to curb terror in the short term" until they see how the international community reacts to election developments and how the government is formed.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Only since last Wednesay??

What does 'cooling it' mean?

[occuserpens]

33. What Hamas Is Seeking

WaPo. Mousa Abu Marzook. What Hamas Is Seeking

Since its creation 10 years ago, the Palestinian Legislative Council has been unsuccessful in addressing the needs of the people. As the occupation solidified its grip under the auspices of "peace agreements," quality of life deteriorated for Palestinians in the occupied territories. Poverty levels soared, unemployment rates reached uncharted heights and the lack of basic security approached unbearable depths. A grass-roots alternative grew out of the urgency of this situation. Through its legacy of social work and involvement in the needs of the Palestinian people, the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) flourished as a positive social force striving for the welfare of all Palestinians. Alleviating the debilitative conditions of occupation, and not an Islamic state, is at the heart of our mandate (with reform and change as its lifeblood).

Despite the pressures of occupation and corrupt self-rule, Palestinian civil society has demonstrated its resilience in the face of repressive conditions. Social institutions can now be given new life under a reformed government that embraces the empowerment of the people, facilitates freedoms and protects civil rights.

The Islamic Resistance Movement was elected to protect the Palestinians from the abuses of occupation, based on its history of sacrifice for the cause of liberty. It would be a mistake to view the collective will of the Palestinian people in electing Hamas in fair and free elections under occupation as a threat. For meaningful dialogue to occur there should be no prejudgments or preconditions. And we do desire dialogue. The terms of the dialogue should be premised on justice, mutual respect and integrity of the parties.

The writer is deputy political bureau chief of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas). He has a U.S. doctorate in engineering and was indicted in the United States in 2004 as a co-conspirator on racketeering and money-laundering charges in connection with activities on behalf of Hamas dating to the early 1990s, before the organization was placed on the list of terrorist groups. He was deported to Jordan in 1997.