De-Demonize Hamas, Support Democracy

[occuserpens]

Mr.Whitbeck is 100% right. If anything can help I/P, it is change of narrative, systematic search and replacement of negative hostile concepts - starting from "infrastructure of terror" - by more constructive ones. As for generic calls for "peace", "tolerance" , etc, they will never work. Needless to say, it can't be easy because maintaining hostile stereotypes is exactly what black PR machine is supposed to do.

ANews. John V.Whitbeck. De-Demonize Hamas, Support Democracy

If one views the world through the eyes of Israeli and Western governments and media, one is likely to believe that the primary obstacle to Middle East peace has for the past several years been Fatah’s failure to "dismantle the infrastructure of terror" and has now become Hamas’ desire for the "destruction of Israel".

What does "dismantling the infrastructure of terror" mean? What "infrastructure"? Roads? Bridges? Office buildings? Given the distinctly personal and low-tech nature of the acts characterized as "terror" in the Palestinian context, "dismantling the infrastructure of terror" sounds rather like tearing arms and legs off people.

What was surprising was that the former Palestinian leadership did not point out the absurdity of this demand, choosing instead to issue public assurances that it would love to do so and would when it could, thereby implicitly accepting the Israeli and Western argument that the Palestinians, uniquely, have no right to resist occupation - reason enough (even if there were no others) for them to be voted out of office.

Concepts and aspirations may be formulated in positive or negative ways. The "destruction of Israel" is clearly a negative formulation. The "creation of a fully democratic state with equal rights for all" in all of Israel/Palestine could be a positive reformulation that would be recognized by the world as just and offer genuine hope for peace and reconciliation.

John V. Whitbeck, an international lawyer, is author of "The World According to Whitbeck".

[chaz4jazz]

1. Er...

"Given the distinctly personal and low-tech nature of the acts characterized as "terror" in the Palestinian context..." So, some brain wouldn't characterize blowing up buses filled with children, shooting nursing mothers holding their infants to their breasts, blowing up a university dining hall, blowing up wedding/bar mitzvah party, blowing up teenagers outside a dance club, terrorist acts? In the Palestinian context? In whose context wouldn't these acts be considered terror tactics?

"dismantling the infrastructure of terror" sounds rather like tearing arms and legs off people." Yes, these people need to have their arms and legs torn off BEFORE they trigger their lethal bombs.

Whitbeck needs a history lesson including facts. The territories were "occupied" by Arabs (1947) before the Six Day War (1967). No one, least off the Palestinians complained about Jordan and Egypt being the masters of these borders even though those nations abhorred the Palestinians. After the mistaken attack on Israel by most Arab nations in 1967 Jordan and Egypt lost control of those territories that had been offered the displaced Palestinians by the United Nations Mandate and refused by them (they were listening to the Arab leaders of the time who assured them that they would defeat this new pipsqueak Jewish nation in no time and the Palestinians would regain their land. History is bothersome thing - like facts. The Jews defeated all the Arabs threw at them with the assistance of the Brits and Americans and U.N. The Palestinians were without a homeland (having passed on the mandate), and the Arab leaders who encouraged their refusal backed away and treated them like dirt, taking over the land for themselves.

Now, those territories being walled off by Israel, a last gasp defense against the constant murderous assaults by Hamas and other fanatics who dream of killing every Jew and regaining their world - a world they've improved and changed forever. My view is that if that horrible fact would come to pass and the Palestinians regained Israel, in a generation it would look like the West Bank and Gaza. When Gaza was given over to the Palestinian government last year, they left expensive greenhouses, flower-growing businesses that would have brought in much needed revenues, but the Palestinians destroyed every last one of them. Now those lots are fallow, empty, the irrigation destroyed, worthless.

It's very chic to be behind the Palestinian quest for liberation. I would like them to have a separate nation, live in peace alongside Israel. They have more brains than any of their Arab neighbors, more doctors, more professionals, etc. With the right leadership they could have made a go of it, but unfortunately they had Yasser (terror mastermind) Arafat, the man who invented skyjacking, as their leader for oh too many years. He passed on several attempts to have a nation, started the latest intifada which has killed over 700 Jews (and more Palestinians).

Just my opinion

[occuserpens]

2. Your opinion?

Just my opinion

I can remember about a gazillion of such rants!

[Tom Joad]

3. Not very factual.

1967:
"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. " Prime Minister Menachem Begin

But let's talk about 2006.
You say that you want Palestinians to "have a separate nation, live in peace alongside Israel."

So what are you doing to make that dream come true? How are you supporting the dismantlement of all the settlements in the West Bank? Opposing the building of the Wall (fence, whatever), at least as it goes into the West Bank and takes Palestinian agricultural land??

Your sarcasm about supporting the Palestinian cause is to be expected. Your views expressed, even in this brief post, seem to indicate that human rights, the dignity of every person, is something you seem to scorn as a passing fad.

[bemildred]

4. Wrong about the greenhouses, too. nt

[Tom Joad]

5. More on Greenhouses. Correcting factual error.

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/articles/features/gaza_harvest_promise.htm
(originally in the New York Times)

Gadid, Gaza Strip - Amid the rubble of the former Jewish settlements, Palestinians have sown the first seeds of a modest economic revival.

Less than three months after the Israelis departed, Palestinians have repaired scores of greenhouses left by the settlers and planted a fall crop, and they are preparing to harvest an estimated $20 million worth of strawberries, cherry tomatoes, sweet peppers and herbs and spices. The produce is intended mostly for export to Europe, but some will also be headed to Israel, Arab countries and the United States.
*******

So the claim that the Palestinians "destroyed the greenhouses" (I do think some were damaged, but as you can see, they were NOT destroyed). The implication in the "er" post is that the Palestinians destroy what can be useful for them. Indeed, every opportunity to survive is being taken.

[chaz4jazz]

10. er, again

Monday, November 28, 2005
Myre Fries the Facts on the Gaza Greenhouses
The New York Times today, in a story by the ever-unreliable Greg Myre, describes how the Palestinians are finally squeezing a harvest out of the greenhouses left to them in Gaza by their former Jewish inhabitants. Only problem is that the greenhouses were damaged by the Palestinians, in an orgy of self-destructive violence that received widespread publicity, such as this.

That's what happened, and Myre does briefly mention the Palestinian looting. But -- totally disregarding the historical record -- his story lays the blame for the greenhouses' destruction at the feet of the Jewish Gaza farmers, and not the Palestinians.

It's not as if this happened a zillion years ago, for heaven's sake. It was only this past September, and the media was filled with articles on the Palestinian rampage through the greenhouses. The MSNBC piece, linked above, reported at the time that "Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses. . ., walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip."

Myre ignores this widely publicized lootingfest, saying instead that "when the Israeli farmers started leaving, they took their most valuable equipment with them, and some greenhouses were damaged or destroyed."

Note the deliberately fuzzy syntax. "Were destroyed"? Why not say, "Palestinian mobs damaged or destroyed them"? Nope, that would be contrary to Times policy of downplaying Palestinian violence. It also provides, deliberately I think, the mistaken impression that the Jewish farners "damaged or destroyed them."

He then says:
James D. Wolfensohn, the envoy for countries involved in Middle East peacemaking, cobbled together a group of wealthy Jewish Americans who pledged $14 million in compensation for the Israeli farmers provided that they left the greenhouses intact. The deal was reached just days before the settlers were evacuated, and it is not clear that it prevented much additional damage to the greenhouses.

Myre presumably had passing grade in high school English. If not, his editors did. Their sloppy syntax had a clear intent -- to unfairly, and inaccurately, blame Israelis for the destruction of the greenhouses, instead of the Palestinians who ripped them to shreds.

As has been my practice with the last few Times items, I'm sending a copy of this item to the Empty Suit, New York Times spokesman (a/k/a "public editor") Barney Calame. Something else for you to ignore, Barney, while you shill for management and focus on trivia.

[chaz4jazz]

11. More on greenhouses

Militant Islam Monitor > Satire > Arabs in Gaza beg Jews for help to run greenhouses they destroyed

Arabs in Gaza beg Jews for help to run greenhouses they destroyed
December 22, 2005

FROM WND'S JERUSALEM BUREAU
Palestinians boot Jews,
now beg them for help
Arabs unable to reproduce successes in area greenhouses

Posted: December 22, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48015


By Aaron Klein


© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

The Palestinians who took over the Jewish greenhouses in the Gaza Strip when Israel withdrew its communities from the area now are asking expelled farmers for advice after reportedly failing to reproduce the region's famous insect-free vegetables, WND has learned.

Prior to Israel's August withdrawal, the residents of Gaza's Gush Katif slate of Jewish communities ran greenhouses known for producing high-quality insect-free vegetables. The Gush Katif gardens featured some of the most technologically advanced agricultural equipment and accounted for more than $100 million per year in exports to Europe. The greenhouses also supplied Israel with 75 percent of its own produce.


The hothouses were passed to the Palestinians in September in a $14 million deal brokered by former World Bank President James Wolfenson and several wealthy Jewish Americans.

Earlier this month, the Palestinians now running the greenhouses reportedly told the Israeli-Palestinian Economic Cooperation Fund they failed in their efforts to grow bug-free produce.

Now the Palestinian owners have asked the United States Agency for International Development, which has been involved in reconstruction efforts in Gaza, to hire former Jewish Gaza greenhouse owners as consultants for their declining vegetable businesses.

Eitan Hederi, a former Gaza farmer who represented Gush Katif residents in the Wolfenson greenhouse transfer told WND, "The Palestinians are privately turning to U.S. AID to hire us because we are experts in this kind of farming. It's a really complex process that we engineered."

Anita Tucker, an expelled Gaza resident and one of the pioneer farmers of Gush Katif, told WND, "I am not at all surprised the Palestinians are failing. When they worked in our greenhouses they needed to be monitored closely. Many didn't understand certain things, like not using different kinds of chemicals. Plus when we were in Gaza, our efforts were blessed by God."

Tucker explained she and other Katif farmers engineered agricultural technology specific to the dry, sandy Gaza conditions.

"We used different kinds of netting, also aluminum, since we knew the reflection of the sun kept bugs away," she said. "We used colors because we knew certain kinds of bugs were attracted to or kept away from different colors. We used certain organic insecticides for certain plants, and were very strict about which chemicals we used. We kept our greenhouses as clean as possible. And we also had our own proprietary inventions and technology."


Asked if she would serve as a consultant for the new Palestinian owners of her former greenhouses, Tucker said, "Probably not. We see the terror coming out of Gaza, coming out of the neighborhood I used to live in, and it's just horrible. Hamas has taken over different parts of Gush Katif and are firing rockets into Israel. I am not saying the Palestinian farmers are involved, but it seems they are not doing enough to stop the terror."

Haderi, who says he already has been asked by U.S. AID to consult on greenhouse technology, said, "I am still thinking about it. It's a very difficult decision."

[eyl]

6. Here we

go again

[eyl]

7. He's wrong

Despite the way I've seen some people characterize it, Palestinian terrorism is not just a matter of someone waking up one morning and setting out to blow up a bus. Let's look, for instance, as to what is needed for a suicide bombing:

1) Someone needs to select and prepare the bomber - this isn't a quick process.
2) The materials for the belt need to assembled.
3) The bomb belt needs to be constructed.
4) The bomber's route needs to be planned, trying to avoid interception as far as possible.
5) The belt needs to be transported to the bomber (or alternatively to a point where he'll pick it up) past IDF checkpoints and patrols*
6) The bomber needs to reach his target (possibly picking up the bomb on the way), again past IDF patrols and checkpoints (plus police if he's heading inside Israel)

Most of these steps exist, or have equivalents, when preparing a car bomb or roadside bomb, or a Qassam launch. A shooting attack (especially if it takes place within the Territories rather than crosses the Green Line) is simpler, but still takes planning and training (and in some cases, transportation) if you want to accomplish anything.

All of these take time, money, and personnel**. You also need a hidden facility for making the bomb, and usually for storing it. You also need an organization to coordinate the whole thing. The materiel and money can be blocked or confiscated, the facilities can be destroyed, the people can be arrested, and the organizations can be broken up. This is what is referred to in "breaking up the terrorist infrastructure"

*BTW, this point and the next is a large part of why the IDF maintains checkpoints between Palestinian towns
**At the bare minimum, you need the bomber and the bombmaker, if the latter is doing everything. In practise, you'll invariably have more people involved.

[Englander]

8. No it doesn't.

--This is what is referred to in "breaking up the terrorist infrastructure"--

It's a meaningless phrase, similar to 'no partner for peace', it's just a rhetorical
device used to prolong the illegality of the GoI, & keep what peace process there
is in perpetual formeldehyde. It's another eg of the jailer asking the inmates to
stop resisting arrest, if this 'terrorwist infrastructure' *was* actually 'dismantled',
then another excuse would pop up in it's place.

[eyl]

9. The OP's author

claimed that the demand to break up terrorism's infrsastructure was meaningless because there effectively is no such infrastructure. I explained why he was wrong. Your reply is both irrelevent to the point and 100% conjencture besides.

anyway, would you care to explain how you draw an equivalence between deliberately killing Israeli civilians and "inmates resisting arrest"?