Gaza closure choking Palestinians

[Scurrilous]

The continued closure of Gaza's commercial lifeline is causing a humanitarian and economic crisis in the Gaza Strip, UN, Palestinian and Israeli human rights organisations say.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D0A05CF7-71BB-4A9E-9885-24779D9C8257.htm

<snip>

"The crossing, known as Karni or al-Muntar, is Gaza's only commercial outlet to the outside world.

Israeli forces unilaterally shut down the crossing on 14 January based on "intelligence alerts of impending attacks", according to the Israeli Army.

The closure comes despite an agreement brokered by Condoleeza Rice, the US Secretary of State, late last year that said the passage would operate continuously, especially during the harvest season.

According to the UN Office for Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), the closure is costing Palestinians up to $500,000 a day.
Dairy products, baby formula, sugar, rice are amongst items dwindling on the supermarket shelves in Gaza.

In addition, 90 containers of humanitarian supplies, including food and aid, belonging to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), are stuck at Israeli ports, says the group."

[pelsar]

1. what happened to the egyptians?

the egyptian and palestenians share a border contolled by the: egyptians and palestenains....did the egyptians or palestenains close that?

or.....

I guess that some of those people living in gaza shouldnt try blowing up the Karni crossing, (which is an entry in to israel) or perhaps the PA and its military might try protecting their side of the border......but that might be asking a bit too much

[sabbat hunter]

2. israel has ever right

israel, as does any other country in the world, has the right to shut down their borders and not allow people in if they so wish, or close the borders to one country. that is their right.

[eyl]

3. Besides the fact that there's still the Rafah crossing -

which is not under Israeli control;

An Israeli army spokesperson said that they have offered the Palestinian Authority an alternative crossing to use in the meantime at Kerem Shalom, located at the southeast corner of the Strip, bordering both Egypt and Israel. The PA has so far refused, says the army.

[Tom Joad]

14. Read this...

Rashad abu Dayer, in charge of exports in the Ministry of Agriculture, told Aljazeera.net that Palestinians officials have sat down with Israeli officials to solve the problem, but so far there has been no agreement to re-open the crossing.

He also said that the PA is still entertaining the proposal that the crops may be exported through the Kerem Shalom crossing, which is not yet functional or equipped with proper storage facilities, adding that the issue now is related to the general political changes in the area and an agreement with a new Palestinian government.

[Tom Joad]

4. This is a very violent act. People will go hungry.

Shows you what an agreement brokered by Rice is worth. Absolutely nothing. Can't trust the USA. Can't trust Israel to hold up to its agreements. So, why do you think Gazans are angry with the West? It sure as hell has to do with more than cartoons.

[sabbat hunter]

5. how is this a violent act?

doesnt a country have a right to control its own borders?

[Tom Joad]

10. Why not just put Tel Aviv under curfew?

[Behind the Aegis]

47. What would that solve? Why do that? n/t

[Tom Joad]

11. How come the lock on the Gate only works on one side?

"doesn't a country have a right to control its own borders?" Are you saying this with a straight face?
You don't believe that, do you? Why not let that apply to the West Bank as well. Maybe even disallowing Israelis not to confiscate or destroy Palestinian property.
From crazed settlers to Helicopter gunships that fire on Palestinians from the sky, to IDF thugs who kill Palestinian babies, women and men and young American activists, all this shit have been able to go into Gaza at will.

And at the same time Israel has made sure that Gaza, like the West Bank, is totally economically dependent on Israel, for which, yes, Fateh is partly to blame. Still, this border (that is only a border for the Palestinians, and not for the occupation army) will remain closed. yet another example of the million and one ways Israel seeks to literally choke the life out of Palestine.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

13. I said that the fact remains that Gaza is dependent economically,

to Israel. This is unfortunate.

This closing also impacts trade with the West Bank.

[pelsar]

15. their choice.....and not very honest....

if the palestenians of gaza choose they can sell their produce to egypt and further on....israel never had the luxuery of selling to its neighbors so thats not an excuse...in fact the palestenains CAN sell to their neighbor (egypt)...so its best they start doing so....their choice.

Israel has made sure that Gaza,....... totally economically dependent on Israel, . Israel doesnt FORCE the palestenains to sell them their food, doesnt force the palestenaisn to buy israeli products, the UN doesnt HAVE to use israeli ports

OPTIONS exist...why do you constantly ignore them?

[Tom Joad]

16. For people who want to see beyond blaming the victims, see this

article here.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n21/roy_01_.html

A Dubai on the Mediterranean’
Sara Roy on Gaza’s future

According to the World Bank, Palestinians are currently experiencing the worst economic depression in modern history, caused primarily by the long-standing Israeli restrictions that have dramatically reduced Gaza’s levels of trade and virtually cut off its labour force from their jobs inside Israel. This has resulted in unprecedented levels of unemployment of 35 to 40 per cent. Some 65 to 75 per cent of Gazans are impoverished (compared to 30 per cent in 2000); many are hungry.

[pelsar]

17. i'm familiar with it.....

but thats now in the past....its now Feb 2006, gaza is free from being restricted to working just in israel.....(of which i am very happy about)

its not a matter of "blaming the victims"...its a matter of the palestenians and their supporters to start doing something about their situation and stop complaining that its all israels fault....it not israels responsability any longer...and that is the key.

the short term future for them, lies via egypt, the sooner they get started with it, the better it will be for all.

...their past jobs are gone, their old employers (especially the farmers) are very happy with the thais....

[Tom Joad]

18. Yep, a near 40 year occupation sort of ended several months ago.

I mean we could understand a complete turn around would take awhile... but you would think that it would take no more than maybe 10, maybe 20 days tops, to get it together! :sarcasm:

Why can't Israel be held accountable for nearly 40 years of damage to the Palestinian economy, and Palestinian lives? Not to mention the continuing attacks on Palestinians Not only in Gaza but in the West Bank. I don't expect you to understand this Pelsar, the rest of the world may, if they can see beyond the media hype Israel puts out, its most valued export.

[pelsar]

19. i'm not discounting our influence....

but lets start with being honest...shall we? and i'm very familar with pre intifada gaza, intifada I and II and post....so i understand quite well the israeli influence

its not been 40 years of damage, up until intfada I it was quite the opposite, because of israel their infrastructure was improved, they had jobs in israel etc....

the destruction came during intifada II (not I) when gaza was essentially closed down...so were talking several years now. As far as them getting up to speed with egypt etc, that will take some time...but first there needs a change in attitude.

btw selling to egypt or beyond is not that difficult, they have very cheap labor costs and would be selling cheaply.

secondly, they could try protecting the the border crossings.....now i realize they're own internal situation makes that very difficult, but israel no longer has to risk israeli lives to make up for their own internal problems, they have to sort it out themselves......whether or not they can or not..well, isnt that part of the responsability that goes with governing a society?...why should they be excused from such a basic requirement?

in fact the simplist solution is for the arab countries to buy their produce as its trucked over to egypt...wont take much to do that (they can then toss it out if they have to, but the principle of selling outside would be a good one....)

[Scurrilous]

20. Not to mention...

...container ships bound for Israel with humanitarian aid for Gaza can be turned around at sea and redirected to Egyptian ports. Also, produce grown specifically for export to Israel can instantly find new markets in Egypt.

It's soooo easy.

[pelsar]

21. 35 kilometers south of gaza....

Location El-Areesh port is the only Mediterranean port at the north of Sinai. Until 1983, it was merely a fishing vessel berth lacking the least of facilities. Since 1987, developments were made to protect the port seawards, and to adapt it for fishing activities as well as cargo traffic and transits, crop exportation and different maritime sports

imagine that.....a 20minute drive south into egypt.....problems solved (now why do they have to sell to israel again?...or buy from israel?...or have any connection at all to the israeli economy?

[Tom Joad]

22. I do agree that should be the goal. Every nation should cut off

all connections to an economy of an Apartheid state.

[pelsar]

23. there you go again....

apartheid ....perhaps you would like to describe which "features of the palestenians" (nose, color, height....) are the features that were using for application of the "apartheid.

or perhaps you can give me a definition of your version of apartheid, and well see if we can apply it.....

(your very lose with your definitions...can i also do that?.
____________
if you want to change the subject thats ok.....but we can get back to the palestenians responsablity later....and realize that with al arish a mere 20 minute drive, israel is out of the equation for gaza.

[Coastie for Truth]

25. His definition of apartheid

comes from University of California (Hastings) Law Professor George Bisharat.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. Actually he got it from Desmond Tutu...

:)

[Behind the Aegis]

49. Not Nelson Mandela?!?!

:P

[Coastie for Truth]

24. You should boycott apartheid states

and if you consider Israel an apartheid state

1. Get rid of your Acrobat software
2. Get rid of the motion video cells in your Pentium
3. Get rid of the motion video cells in your Windoz
4. Probably get rid of the firewall in your Windoz, and the spyware detector
5. Get rid of your flat panel display
6. If your a diabetic - don't have an Islets transplant - where stem cell therapeutics are used to facilitate the transplant.
7. If you should ever get cancer - don't use a pharmacogenomic chemotherapy agent.
8. If you have various indications of potential esophageal cancer - don't use a proton blocker.
9. Don't buy produce grown with micro irrigation, and especially produce grown with pulsed micro irrigation.
That's just a beginning - there's lots more.

I am not mocking you - I just want to keep you intellectually honest.

[pelsar]

28. apply the principles....

its actually very difficult to apply ones "principles in real life"...in fact very very very few actually have the fortiitude and guts to do it, it usually requires a bit of sacrifice on the part of the "talker".....very few can "walk the walk"

[Violet_Crumble]

50. Fine. Done that. What's next?

Let's just ignore the fact that in reality I'm not into boycotting, but just pretending to seeing you said we should boycott...

Violet...

[pelsar]

57. the answer...

i 'm dont like boycotts (but i shall always answer a question....) but if it makes the person feel like they're having an affect and believe in the priniciple of boycotting, then they should go ahead...but they should be consistant about it.

boycott a country?...if they're honest and want to do, they should, but admit what they are willing to do and what they arent. Forgo medical procedures because it was develped by israel?....sure, if not, at least admit, that your not willing to risk your life for you principles or at least that your principles arent that strong in that area.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. I think Coastie's examples were very extreme ones...

I doubt any boycott in the past has had people refusing lifesaving medical procedures if they were developed in the country being boycotted, and I found his examples very extreme and pretty ridiculous to insist that people MUST do that if they choose to boycott Israel. But if you or Coastie can find me examples from when South Africa was boycotted where people died rather than have medical procedures developed in South Africa, then I will rethink things...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

27. It's easier to complain and finger point

then to implement work arounds - especially when you have enablers and facilitators.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. This is not a violent act.

Israel, like any country, has the right to close its borders.

Maybe the Gazans should be mad at their own people who continue to attack Israel, thus forcing Israel to seal her borders! Maybe they should look for solutions from within, instead of always trying to blame everyone else for their problems.

[channa18]

7. Seems......

anything israel does , except DYING perhaps , is a violent act.

:eyes:

[Coastie for Truth]

26. That's the meme of the "East Bay Progressives"

"anything israel does , except DYING perhaps, is a violent act" - the same East Bay progressives who destroyed what was once America's greatest public university - a true "Public Ivy."

[Violet_Crumble]

51. Correction...

Seems anything Israel does that is violent or will lead to violence is referred to as that. I've got no problems with that. But to claim that anything Israel does is labelled as violence is ignoring a large volume of posts in this forum...

Violet...

[barb162]

8. People won't go hungry. Other crossings, like Rafah, are open.

Violent acts are those such as killing and wounding Egyptians at Rafah a few weeks ago. Some countries take great umbrage at that sort of thing. It is understandable, isn't it

[channa18]

9. Egyptians wont put up with that nonsense.

They'll close that border faster than Kate Moss can do a line of coke.

[barb162]

29. to Tom J: Why don't you make up your mind about your position

Either
1. you want to do business with Israel and you're angry about Israel closing the one crossing (even though Egypt is open)
OR
2. you don't want do business with Israel

You are arguing both positions simultaneously here and the positions are contradictory to each other.

[Coastie for Truth]

30. No - his positions, while seemingly inconsistent, are consistent

He wants to hold Israel responsible for the failures of Hamas to establish a state.

[barb162]

34. I keep forgetting;

thanks for reminding me of that

[Violet_Crumble]

52. Yr best off asking Tom for Tom's opinions...

Getting them from someone else is bound to lead to not being given any true indication of what Tom's opinion is...

Violet...

[pelsar]

59. tom doesnt answer....

direct questions that require "decisions" are many times avoided here, so sometimes some of us have to guess

[barb162]

60. I have certainly been noticing that

[Violet_Crumble]

67. Actually, he does...

I've asked Tom questions and he answers me. I'd say he ignores questions he considers to be pointless or even baiting. That doesn't give you the right to say what you think Tom's opinion is, and do it in such a negative way that it will attract more negative posts aimed at him...

Violet...

[pelsar]

77. its not baiting...

when i find info that it simply not true (gaza having been "closed down" by israel)..or contradictions:

sell to israel is bad, cant sell to israel, bad..i call tom out and expect clarification. Its quite easy to make accusations, a bit more difficult to stand behind them when they're based on false info.

[Tom Joad]

31. I don't want to do business with an outlaw state...

However,these Palestinians were forced to depend on Israel. This was designed by the occupiers. Makes sense, keep the subjects dependant... an old colonialist method.
For myself however, i have more choices, and will do so.. and encourage others to do the same.

"According to the UN Office for Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), the closure is costing Palestinians up to $500,000 a day.

Dairy products, baby formula, sugar, rice are amongst items dwindling on the supermarket shelves in Gaza.

In addition, 90 containers of humanitarian supplies, including food and aid, belonging to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), are stuck at Israeli ports, says the group. "

Who the hell would want to do business with a state that starves and tortures others, unless they had to? Or those who are ignorant of such policies. Or those who support such...

It is a war crime to cut off communities from basic needs. Some day we will see the perps in an international court...

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scurrilous]

35. Are you aware..

...of the complexities involved in exporting perishables?

The crops are ready to be shipped. Arrangements were made to export these crops to Israel and the West Bank.

Israel closed the crossing through which these products were to pass.

They are now rotting in Gaza.

Do you really think new markets for these products are going to be developed overnight?

Do you think arrangements to truck these products to a port in Egypt and have them exported (somewhere, anywhere) can be arranged quickly enough to get them to market before they spoil?

And how does some port in Egypt affect the fact that UN humanitarian supplies have already been unloaded at a port in Israel and the authorities there refuse to deliver them to Gaza?

[pelsar]

38. aware of the complexities?....(i used to live in a agri community)

and its not so difficult given the port 35km due south...a 20minute drive with facilities.....end of complexities. More so, given the known evilness of the israelis the PA had ample time to arrange the transport of their produce to egypt. Israel has been closing down karmi/erez etc since the start of Intifada II, so there are no surprises here at all

the palestenains simply didnt make alternative arrangements (they've had months to arrange it, since sept 2005-transport and market for a known situation....its a societies responsability to arrange for their own...not so difficult, though it does take a new mind set.

the UN supplies are held up because of security problems (not the first time).....again nothing new here.....providing backup alternatives to known situations is the basic responsability of any society.

nor is it even difficult...its a 5 hour drive from Cairo....20 minutes from al arish port.....the palestenains know about the entrys being closed down, they justl like the PR for the evil israelis....thats why no simple alternatives were developed, its just SOOOO simple. (or perhaps incompetent?...are there other alternatives?-i'm open for suggestions)

[Scurrilous]

44. Yep..

..it's so easy and uncomplicated for the Gazans to get their products to market it only took the involvement of the US Secretary of State to help hammer out the previous arrangements.

Here's a suggestion: Israel needs to honor the agreement brokered by Ms. Rice which stipulated that 'the (Karni) passage would operate continuously, especially during the harvest season.' Talk about easy.

[pelsar]

45. welcome to Feb 2006

Egypt is open (and has been for quite a while).....ports exist......

and if you knew the agreement you would also know that when the threats are real, border stations can be closed (or is it only in israel where this is not allowed..or the alternative. israeli lives dont count when it comes to exporting produce for the palestenians even when alternatives exist....

is the alternative being denied or the threat being fabricated, must be one of the other----which?

.....the excuses that its "israels fault' are gettting really thin these days, in fact in order to blame israel simple facts now have to be ignored.

[Violet_Crumble]

53. Here's what I'm getting really sick of...

Any time it's pointed out that Israel must comply with agreements it's made, the same old cry of 'there you go blaming Israel again!' rises. The reality is that sometimes things ARE Israel's fault, that sometimes things are the fault of Israel, the Palestinians, and a multitude of other parties, and I think to pretend Israel is blameless is a ridiculous one...

Violet...

[pelsar]

56. open your eyes....

..... when a poster goes and claims israel is responsable for all of the problems in gaza and refuses to find ANYTHING wrong with the palestenains have or have not done, that israel is responsable for all of their problems

refuses to acknowledge that they DO have a access to Egypt (hence its not closed down)

refuses to acknowledge that the "bad palestenians" have tunnneled and attacked the border crossings before...

well its time to clarify the air and get some honest answers from said poster....after that we can move on...except like many here, when asked direct questions...the answer is usually silence.


but some facts are simply facts:
el arish is a port that can handle vegis,
its 35km south of gaza

the egyptian/palestenain border is just that...no israelis in sight, no israeli has anything to say about it.
_____________
the palestenains as far as I understand have done nothing to modify their economy to take advantage of such aspects knowing full well that the israeli borders will not be consistently open, as the past has shown.

It is 100% palestenian fault for not taking advantage of their access to egypt to insure a market for their exports and imports. If they want to remain dependant upon israel, its their choice. It may not be a wise one, but its theirs for the making.

israel 'grew up" in a world where it had a full boycott on all its good in its own neighborhood....and did just fine. So can the palestenians....

[Spinoza]

79. Pelsar,

I admire your indefatigability. I couldn't do it. Yours is a lonely journey, my friend.

[pelsar]

80. its educational...

i live in a bubble of people who deal with real world problems with the limitations that exist in the real world.

playing on the internet i've discovered the world of fantasy, denial, irresponsability, blindness, intolerence (especially by those who profess tolerence and "understanding"). i've discovered that to some, jews really arent jews, that jewish history isnt real, that jewish culture is a lesser culture, that jewish blood really is a different color, that cartoons about jews arent really bigoted, that a double standard, is in fact the standard, that its easy to criticize, and one doesnt have to offer solutions afterwards. That giving electricity can be oppresive, that taking it away is a "war crime." Letting the palestenans sell to israel is bad, because they should be boycotting, stopping them from selling is bad because they didnt bother to setup other markets. Missles that are intended to kill in israel can be "spitballs", israel shooting empty fields is a war crime. The hizballa attacking n. israel is a nonevent, because israel pulled back to the intl border and its hard to blame israel for being attacked. The gaza pullout pulled the wool over everybodys eyes and no one noticed the settlements expanding, except everyone who mentioned it. Gaza is still under the ocupation because the palestenain/egytian border doesnt exist for many people (it ruins the "israel control gaza scenario). Hamas was elected because of sharon, he wanted them to be elected and the palestenains listened to sharon......

i dont get these things in the israeli papers or TV talk shows....too many palestenians and israeli arabs are writing columnes or participating....too much reality.

[Spinoza]

81. Yes,

its the double-standards applied constantly to Israel and zionist Jews that are so infuriating, unfair and depressing. Herzl's essential argument for a sovereign Jewish majority state is continuously being reaffirmed by reality. Thanks for your continuous reality check.

[Tom Joad]

41. Yeah, what is that? Cutting relief supplies.

How does that help Israel? It is plain how it hurts Palestinians... how does that help Israel?
Cutting off humanitarian supplies??? Now how does preventing supplies from going in... prevent some imagined future attack on Israel?

[pelsar]

43. attacks on karmi?

on erez...so now your claiming the attacks are only "imagined"...your running out of excuses.

closing the crossings limits the "bad palestenians" from getting close to and attacking israelis at the crossings, they cant get to us.

oh so why dont they import from egypt?.....you were saying?

[barb162]

36. One of the interesting things you mention here

is the dairy products that I saw on TV coverage yesterday. The Palestinians were clearing all Danish dairy products off the shelves because of the infamous cartoons. And I understand the sales from the Danish dairy have dropped to zero in the Mideast. It occurred to me that someone would complain about kids not having milk when fellow Palestinians and other Mideasterners are taking the product off the shelves. And damn it, Tom, you didn't fail me. I knew I was going to be right on that. Thank you.

Now what is wrong with using Rafah again? Will the Palestinians who took the dairy products off the shelves be guilty of war crimes for cutting off their OWN communities from basic needs.

[pelsar]

40. i missed that...

so they wont buy danish products on their shelves, try to blow up the crossing in to israel where their produce is shipped, cant get other supplies via israel becuase of terrorist threats on that crossing, dont use the rafah crossing for reasons unkown..

and this is all israels fault?.....what is wrong with this picture?....(well to some absolutly nothing-the cry is " israel is doing this to us....remains strong, old habits are hard to break)

[barb162]

42. Okay, okay Pelsar

"and this is all israels fault?"
Yes, you know it

:sarcasm:

They were clearing all Danish dairy products off the shelves and putting them into boxes. And I was watching the footage and thinking, watch some parents trying to feed their kids complain there's no milk or other dairy. And they would have a perfect right to complain. The Danish Arla chain sales have dropped to zero in the Mideast; their workers were threatened and plants have been shut down. The people clearing the store shelves and the people threatening the Arla workers should ask the parents if they need the milk IMHO. I never heard of the chain but there have to be some real shortages.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. That all sounds like total crap to me...

Now yr going to provide some evidence that the ONLY dairy products in Gaza is from Denmark, else that whole thing seems like a bit of a desparate attempt to blame the Palestinians for everything...

Violet...

[pelsar]

58. the blame...

the palestenains get blamed for what their society does...that the base. They are influenced by israel (past and present) as is israel influenced by the palestenians....and israel takes the responsability for what israel does.

......attempting to blow up karmi, tunnels underneath, and israel closing it down, is first and formost a plaestenain thing, israel can close its borders when ever it feels threatened, that is the states responsability.......it wouldnt be closed if the "bad palestenians" werent trying again to tunnel beneath....or if the PA somehow could figure out how to police their own society.

those aspects are firmly palestenian, and hence they get the blame.

(if you want to blame israel for something, settlements are always a good, one, or the jews in hebron and their provocations...)

[barb162]

64. Well so does your comment and Stop misstating my posts

For starters I didn't use the word "ONLY" and I can assure you here there's no desperation on my part to blame Palestinians for "everything" You might want to take a look at Joad's post again for a claim about dairy products not getting into Gaza.

Now if you want to talk about people who take dairy products off shelves from a certain Danish dairy and people who have closed that dairy's plants in the Mideast, we can have a discussion.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. So the facts are that Palestinians are NOT reliant on Danish dairy produce

And with that admission, the whole point of yr 'argument' crumbles. It would only have stood up if without Danish dairy produce Palestinians are screwed, but seeing as Denmark isn't the only supplier of dairy produce, it was a particularly silly argument, and the way it was voiced in an attempt to blame Palestinians for being so selfish as to boycott Danish dairy produce sure didn't do any favours...

Violet...

[barb162]

61. Israel is a UN member, Tom, not an outlaw state

[Coastie for Truth]

63. They were not forced by Israel to depend on Israel

They were forced by the post WW 1, colonialistic, imperialistic, capitalistic, bourgeoisie mapmaking of the winning Brits and French - who carved up the map of the ME for their own colonialistic, imperialistic, capitalistic, bourgeoisie reasons (weak, warring, tribal states that couldn't challenge them on Suez or oil). The WW 1 victors set up a system that made the turmoil inevitable -- and the Israelis and the Palestinians - and the Arab proletariat are VICTIMS.

---William Engdahl, "A Century Of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order"
---

[Tom Joad]

33. The closure comes despite an agreement brokered by Condoleeza Rice

The closure comes despite an agreement brokered by Condoleeza Rice, the US Secretary of State, late last year that said the passage would operate continuously, especially during the harvest season.


Why the f does she bother? It is useless getting an agreement with a State that will do what it wants, when it wants. If we can't get Congress to stop aid to Israel, at least let's get them to stop sending envoys to broker deals. Israel ignores them after they are made. Just like it has the Road Map. At least we'd be able to save airline fuel.

[barb162]

37. Operative phrase: intelligence alerts of impending attacks"

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Yeah, I think the word intelligence is a bit ironic in that context...

n/t

[barb162]

62. "alerts of impending attacks" is okay for closing the crossing

Who cares if that word "intelligence" is there or not. If the spies are reliable from past info, that's reason enough to close a crossing.

[Violet_Crumble]

65. It's a rather feeble excuse...

though it's one those who think the IDF are always correct in everything they say will fall for every time...

Violet...

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coastie for Truth]

70. Karni crossing slated to reopen Sunday - J Post 2/4/06

JPost.com » Israel » Article
Feb. 4, 2006 23:36 | Updated Feb. 5, 2006 4:48
Karni crossing slated to reopen Sunday
By YAAKOV KATZ
The Karni trade crossing into the Gaza Strip will reopen to business on Sunday after it was closed for almost a month due to terror warnings.

The IDF shut the crossing in mid-January after receiving intelligence that Palestinian terror groups were digging "terror tunnels" under the crossing.

Following Karni's closure, the Defense Ministry announced plans to open the Kerem Shalom pedestrian crossing in the southern tip of Gaza to humanitarian and commercial goods.

The Palestinians, however, rejected the offer and accused Israel of tightening its siege on Gaza due to the Palestinian elections.
<<<SNIP>>>

[pelsar]

46. the Europeans refuse....

from the article:
They said they could try to get through two trucks. Two trucks!" he said, outraged, adding that attempts by farmers to smuggle out a few crates of fruit and vegetables through the Palestinian-Egyptian controlled crossing have been met with refusal by European observers.

BLAME THE EUROPEANS!!!! they're refusing to let the palestenains export: CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY!!

[gonzo8]

69. Beyond hypocrisy

"Why... is Hamas being told it must agree up front to honour Fatah's agreements -the failed 1993 Oslo Accords, the abject 2003 "road map for peace" - when Israel has been able to ignore many of its own obligations, notably on the freezing of its ever-growing settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the easing of its onerous military restrictions on everyday Palestinian life and - only this week - the payment of money which it owes the Palestinian Authority under formal Oslo commitments?

Why should Hamas formally recognise the legitimacy of a Jewish state in Israel when successive Israeli governments have taken practical steps to block the creation of a genuine Palestinian state "until the Palestinians turn into Finns", as a senior government adviser famously admitted?

And why, they ask, is the world calling on Hamas to renounce violence when it has been on a ceasefire for a year now? ...

Why, ask Palestinians, does nobody in the West ever ask Israel to renounce the use of violence in pursuit of its political goals?"

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/under-the-gun-in-gaza/2006/02/03/1138958906888.html

[Colorado Blue]

71. Hello? Rocket fire - which is a constant occurrence from

Gaza - injured five people in Israel, including a baby, and destroyed their home. The residents of this kibbutz had been ethnically cleansed from Gaza. Now they're forced to abandon yet another home:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/678599.html

A couple of days ago, two Palestinians with eleven pipe bombs were interdicted by an Israeli soldier, en route to committing a terrorist act in central Israel. Over the Chanukah holiday, several people including an Israeli soldier, were killed when would-be suicide bombers were indicted en route to childrens' parties in Israel, and blew up prematurely.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=female+soldier+catches+pipe+bombers&itemNo=678662

Sappers defused a bomb, to be used in a terror attack:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=female+soldier+catches+pipe+bombers&itemNo=678641

Before that, several people were injured in a suicide attack; the bomber was killed. Worse carnage was avoided when he blew up prematurely in the john.

Shall I continue?

Shortly after the withdrawal from Gaza, Hamas blew accidentally blew up its own explosives at a "victory" parade and "retaliated" by attacking Israel. Suicide bombings and shootings followed and greenhouses and other property, left for the Palestinians, were trashed. Various groups claim "credit" for the attacks.

All of this is documented in Ha'aretz and other major papers. THIS isn't propaganda. It's what really goes on - constantly. And this is the "truce".

[Scurrilous]

72. Hamas has honored its truce with Israel.

If you have any proof to the contrary, feel free to post the appropriate links.


BTW...

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/02/03/isrlpa12603.htm

Islamic Jihad has claimed responsibility for the following suicide bombing attacks against civilians in Israel over the past twelve months.


On January 19, 2006, a 22-year-old Palestinian man, Sami Antar, from Nablus, detonated explosives on his body in a Tel Aviv restaurant popular with immigrant workers, killing himself and wounding more than two dozen Israelis. Islamic Jihad released a videotape to the media claiming responsibility.

On December 5, 2005, a Palestinian man whom Islamic Jihad identified as Lutfi Amin Abu Sa`ada blew himself up in a shopping center in the northern Israeli city of Netanya. The attack killed five persons in addition to the bomber and wounded about forty, some seriously.

On October 26, 2005, 20-year-old Hassan Abu Zayid carried out a suicide bombing attack in the northern town of Hadera, killing six persons and wounding several dozen others. Islamic Jihad spokesman Khadir Habib told the Associate Press that the Hadera bombing was a “natural retaliation” for Israel’s killing of Luay Saadi, the Islamic Jihad leader in the northern West Bank, two days earlier.

On August 28, 2005, a suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus station in the southern city of Beersheba, after security guards prevented him from boarding a bus. The blast killed the bomber and wounded ten persons, several critically. According to news reports, both Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for this attack.

On July 12, 2005, an 18-year-old Palestinian man, Ahmad Sami Abu Khalil, carried out a suicide bombing attack at a shopping center entrance in the northern city of Netanya. The attack, claimed by Islamic Jihad, killed four civilians and one soldier besides the bomber and injured thirty. According to the Reuters news agency, in his videotaped message subsequently released by Islamic Jihad, Abu Khalil said, “We reiterate our commitment to calm, but we have to retaliate for Israeli violations.”

On February 25, 2005, `Abdallah Sa`id Badran, a 21-year-old Palestinian from Deir al-Ghusun village near Tulkarm, blew himself up outside a Tel Aviv nightclub, killing five persons besides himself and wounding about fifty, at least six of them critically. The next day Al-Jazeera aired a videotape message from Badran that was reportedly sent by the military wing of Islamic Jihad, the Jerusalem Brigades (Saraya al-Quds).


The Islamic Jihad organization’s military wing, Saraya al-Quds, has also carried out rocket attacks against towns inside Israel, in addition to the attack on Kibbutz Karmiya earlier today, according to the organization’s alquds.net website. A January 14, 2006 website entry, for example, claims that the Saraya al-Quds fired five rockets towards Sderot in reprisal for the assassination of three Islamic Jihad members in Jenin. An entry on January 3, 2006, asserted that the group fired six rockets at Sderot. It is impossible to target these weapons with any accuracy or precision, making their use against or near civilian-populated areas a violation of international humanitarian law, which prohibits the use of weapons that cannot be directed at specific military objectives.

[eyl]

74. This proof enough for you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x113620#114173

Or do you need some more links?

[Scurrilous]

75. Let's see:

From your first link:

"Three workers, two Palestinian and one Chinese, were killed and five other Palestinian workers were injured Tuesday when a Qassam rocket slammed into a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganai Tal."

<snip>

"The military wing of Islamic Jihad, the al-Quds Company, was quick to take responsibility for the attack. “At 1:55 PM we fired two Quds 2 rockets at the Zionist city of Sderot, which sits on Palestinian land that has been occupied since 1948. At 2:13 another cell fired two rockets at the Kfar Aza settlement."


From your second link:

"The Salach al-Din Companies, the military faction of the Popular Resistance Committees, have claimed responsibility for the most recent Qassam attack on Sderot.

The organization said in a statement the attacks were launched in response to Israeli violations of the cease-fire, including the targeted killing of seven Hamas members in Gaza and the West Bank."

<snip>

"Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah all claimed responsibility for the attack. However, Palestinian sources in Gaza initially said that the Islamic Jihad was behind the rocket barrage."


Your third link describes infighting between Palestinian factions and mentions rocket attacks on Sderot which other groups have claimed responsibility for.

Your fourth link contains no mention of Hamas actions against Israel.

Your fifth link concerns the one death attributed to Hamas by Shin Bet in the last year.

From gonzo8's link:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/under-the-gun-in-gaza/2006/02/03/1138958906888.html?page=2

<snip>

"And why, they ask, is the world calling on Hamas to renounce violence when it has been on a ceasefire for a year now?

Israeli intelligence blames Hamas for the death of only one of the 35 Israelis killed since all the main parties to the conflict, including Israel and Hamas, agreed to a de facto truce on February 7 last year (most of the rest were killed by Islamic Jihad).

Since then, despite the agreement, Israeli forces have killed more than 190 Palestinians, including several members of Hamas, and arrested thousands more. In the past week they shot dead two children."

[eyl]

76. Regarding the first link

Hamas also claimed responsibility.

Same in the second (note it was initially believed IJ was behind it; that implies something different was known later).

The third link specifically mentions Hamas attacks on Sderot.

The fourth link describes attacks against Israel in retaliation for an explosion Hamas blamed on Israel. While that link doesn't specifically name the factions involved in the shooting itself, it's reasonable Hamas was behind it (actually, I remember other sources at the time specifically stating Hamas was behinf the rockets, but they've aged off by now).

Here's another reference to Hamas attacking during that period:

Over the past year Hamas has also been responsible for firing home-made Qassam rockets at Israeli towns, in violation of the international humanitarian law prohibition against firing weapons that cannot be directed at specific military targets in or near civilian areas

BTW, from the same source, regarding the attack in the first link:

Hamas mortar shells and Qassam rockets killed three civilian workers (two Palestinian and one Chinese) and injured an Israeli woman and her two children in an attack that struck a packing plant in the Israeli settlement of Ganei Tal in Gaza and the Israeli town of Sderot yesterday.

[Coastie for Truth]

78. BTW - the crossing is now open

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=114803&mesg_id=115157

[gonzo8]

73. Israel is killing many more innocent civilians than Hamas...

"Israelis are right to point to the murderous record of Hamas's military wing which, between September 2000 and February last year, dispatched more than 50 suicide bombers and killed almost 300 Israelis.

But they might also ask themselves how their own troops, police and religious fundamentalists came to kill more than 3780 Palestinians in five years, many of them unarmed or non-combatants, 689 of them minors, 188 of them women. And they might ask themselves how, if they were Palestinians, they might feel about that."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/under-the-gun-in-gaza/2006/02/03/1138958906888.html?page=4