Palestinian militants ransack former Gush Katif greenhouses

[barb162]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/681271.html



Gush Katif settlers walking among their greenhouses just prior to last year's disengagement. (Mati Milstein)



Last update - 07:44 10/02/2006


Palestinian militants ransack former Gush Katif greenhouses

By Arnon Regular, Haaretz Correspondent

Some 200 dunams of greenhouse space in the Gaza Strip were ransacked recently by dozens of armed Palestinians and residents of Khan Yunis.

International donors had purchased the greenhouses from evacuated Gush Katif settlers for the benefit of the Palestinians.


According to Palestinian and international sources involved in running the greenhouses, the armed robbers belonged to two militias, the Assistance Committees and the Popular Army, affiliated with former Palestinian ruling party Fatah. These militias had been hired by the Palestinian Authority to guard both the ruins of the former settlements and the greenhouses, which were all under cultivation. But instead of guarding the greenhouses, the guards decided to rob them.

According to the sources, the robbers used bulldozers to break the iron
supports of the buildings' frames, then swarmed over the equipment inside, which included piping and irrigation computers. The damage to the greenhouses, which are meant to provide employment for hundreds of Palestinians and increase the PA's exports, is irreparable, the sources added.
snip

[AGKISTRODON]

1. Damned fools

Those greenhouses are capable of producing a lot of high quality food.

[Andromeda]

2. What a completely senseless act.

Unbelievable.:argh:

[IndianaGreen]

8. They stole the piping, perhaps to sell as scrap metal

This reinforces the growing view that the sooner Israel withdraws from most of the remaining Palestinian areas, the better it is going to be. The Palestinians only have their hatred for Israel to unite them. They will have to choose between governing themselves or sink into anarchy.

[Spinoza]

16. Why are you (apparently)

confident that the hatred will end, or even subside, if and when Israel withdraws from the remaining Palestinian areas? The hatred seemed to be there even before the 67 war. Palestinian children have now been exposed for decades to extreme demonization of Israelis and/or Jews. Especially with Hamas in control is it really reasonable to believe that the hatred will significantly diminish? Isn't 'optimism' an unaffordable luxury for Israelis?

[pelsar]

17. it wont subside...

it hasnt in iran (as if they have anything to do with the conflict)....nor in other places...Israel cannot be responsable for palestenains education (nor in Egypt, Jordan, etc) but thats not what the real goal is. The palestenains may very well sink in to a world of "tribal warfare" as parts of gaza are today. The goal of israel it appears with olmert is to create strong defensive borders that seperates the palestenians from israelis. At that point they, like many in iran, jordan, syria, lebanon, etc, can hate all they like but can do anything about it or at least have limited means.

A palestenain society that can no longer attack israel and in return doesnt require israeli reprisals will no longer be much in the news.....and I suspect not much interest to much of the world

[barb162]

20. I agree, their media is just about 24 hour a day anti-Israel

propaganda. With Hamas, I expect it to get "more so" very quickly

[rfkrfk]

12. this makes sense to me, with the change of government...

that Israeli greenhouses will be torn down for salvage

that Israeli electrical wires will be torn down, for scrap

that Israeli plumbing pipes will be dug up, for scrap

Israeli street-traffic signs, will be ripped out

metal fences, metal window frames, etc etc
car tires

no sewer grates to be liberated, unfortunately

bricks can be sold for a penny

anything not nailed down, or nailed down, no differnce

[barb162]

22. There was damage to the greenhouses baack in September '05

too before the change in government

[rfkrfk]

24. this is a gang war

this is my speculation, I read the same news sources,
everyone else does.

....
Fatah cronies got ownership of the properties, when Israel left.
When Fatah-controlled security broke down, in the aftermath
of the elctions...
thieves, hooligans, Hanmas patry members, etc,
steal everything.

Is there some reason for the groups I mentioned,
would not just take what they wanted?

[barb162]

21. Yes, lost jobs, wages, tax revenue, etc.

[pelsar]

3. morons.....

individuals? "militants" militias, bunch of pissed off palestenians with no where to vent their anger?.....

worse another bunched kidnapped an egyptian official.....and they need egyptian good will to keep their access to the world open...would hate to see egypt closing down their borderr and placing gaza in some kind of "prison" (israel would not doubt be blamed for the closing of the rafah border control....)

further many of the intl have now left due to the danger that they're facing from the same "groups" of pissed off people.

so, will hamas get it together? make order and place "their women" in ninja type clothing by law?....will couples be forbidden to hold hands? will the books be balanced?

never a dull moment in gaza...and none of it can be blamed on israel (except for the occupation electricity of course coming from the powerplant in israel that they're shooting at-maybe they'll get lucky and hit the transformer that sends the electricity to gaza?)


.......their society, their rules, their mess

[Coastie for Truth]

4. I don't want any propaganda about

how 100% of the Israelis are 100% responsible for 100% of the Palestinians' economic woes in Gaza. I am tired of the friggin "blame meme."

[Violet_Crumble]

7. No-one's actually said that...

I think what the problem may be is that there's some wise folk who believe that blame is a multifaceted thing and at times both Palestinians and Israel are to blame for things. To folk who see any criticism of Israel as *blaming Israel 100% of the time*, this would translate into 'blame 100% of the Israelis 100% of the time'...

Violet...

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. The Palestinians have their own country???

Fill us all in. When did this new state appear??

btw, in the rush to act as though no other places in this world have problems with local criminals carrying out crimes like this, everyone who's posted in this thread so far seems to be talking as though this is somehow indicative of the behaviour of the wider Palestinian population....

Violet...

[pelsar]

9. its indicative of a society.....

when israeli criminals attack another israeli criminal its wholly an israeli problem and has indications for the whole israeli society....When israeli soldiers kill the wrong person, it has implications for the IDF and the israeli society

____________________

When the palestenains and their militias destroy the working greenhouses left by the settlers paid for by american jews its wholly a palestenian thing and also indicitave of their society since militias, govt security personal (or are you saying that they dont represent the PA and or present govt?)... hence it wasnt a simple criminal act by individuals.

it does have implications of their society, just as the kidnappings do, the crashing of the egyptian border, the kassams, the euros that have now fled.....its a society that is presently having trouble providing basic security for its members.....

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Israeli criminals only attack other israeli criminals??

Don't know what that's about, and somehow strongly suspect that's not the case at all, but I'm not sure what it is in my post yr having trouble with, pelsar. Instead of blaming Palestinian society for just about everything, what you should be doing is accepting the fact that it was a criminal act of the very nature of those carried out in just about every country, and that the attempts to paint them as something worse is only being done because they're Palestinians. Same with the nonsense about them being representative of the population and being part of the govt - what absolute garbage. It was a criminal act, pure and simple...


This stereotyping of Palestinians and the constant negative comments about their society are really getting out of hand, btw...

Violet...

[pelsar]

11. so then you agree...

that when an IDF soldier does a criminal act, it is just he that is guilty and not the IDF nor does the IDF have any responsability toward that same soldier?...or at least thats how i undestand it since the greenhouses were destroyed by those who were guarding them who are employed by the PA....and i understand your saying that the PA has no responsabiity toward those it employees and employees of the PA have no responsability nor do they represent the PA.... (i.e. just a mere criminal act of individuals)


as far as my view of the palestenain society in gaza is....its a society in trouble that is not managing to provide security for its own citizens, it visitors nor guarding its own borders...and in fact it has chased away precisly those people who have come to help, but since israel is no longer part of the equation, they no longer have any excuses for the lack of control.....and its their own responsability.

unless of course there is a different explanation and that gaza is really doing "just fine"....

[Violet_Crumble]

25. No, of course I don't agree...

I'm not even sure why you've asked me that question. I think it's totally bizarre that you are acting as though criminal acts like this don't happen in other countries. It happens, and it happens a lot...

No, Pelsar, I've never claimed Gaza is really doing "just fine" but neither do I have to go to the other extreme where any act of criminality is pounced upon gleefully and the entire Palestinian society is blamed. What I think is disgusting is that I've only recently realised why some are so gleeful about this sort of thing and run around shrieking 'chaos!! chaos!!!' all the time - it's because they want very badly for things to fail catastrophically in Gaza and they don't want any foreigners helping the Palestinians....

Violet...

[pelsar]

27. its not a simple criminal case

when the security forces are involved....thats what it comes down to...and thats the difference between a mere criminal/maifia type of crime vs a breakdown in the govt structure, and thats the question...

its not "joy" at seeing the chaos...but it is clarification of what can very well happen on the westbank...its called opening ones eyes to the reality and dealing with it, as opposed to wishful thinking and pretending that gazas problems are no more and no less than any other state.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Security forces elsewhere have been involved in crime...

Yet you continue to pretend that this is unique to the Palestinians. It's not, pelsar. Ransacking like that isn't 'a breakdown in the govt structure', either. I'm just curious as to whether you actually consider any crime in Gaza to be 'mere crime' or a stunning example of why Palestinians should now be wishing the settlements had never been removed...

If it's not joy, it's looking very much like it. Also, there's no pretense that Gaza's problems are no more or less than any other state, and the reason for that is that it's not a state. There seems to be a belief in some circles that Gaza should have seamlessly emerged as a shining light to the world where crime is non-existent and where there'd be nothing in the way of chaos, and that any hint of it can be blamed on Palestinian society as a whole. That belief is not realistic at all...

Violet....

[pelsar]

29. reality check.....

gaza is not in a position of providing security to its citizens.....its security forces and the local "neighborhood watch" organizations are tied in with conflicting interests, with some playing both sides. The internationals have left, various organizations kidnap various officials for various reasons...none of those are "ordinary crimes".....but of a society in trouble. Normal theives, murder for money etc is normal criminal activity. Gun battles using automatic weapons between various security organizations and militias is not

One of the most important assests the greenhouse were destroyed....

The borders are not patrolled if even there was any intention of doing so....missles and attacks continue (considered normal?). Attempts to blow up karmi, their commercial exit to israel (??) still happens.

that is gaza today...and hamas is now coming in with many question marks.

________________

Gaza was in bad shape and so far as i can tell, they've made it worse since the israeli withdrawl....and its entirly their responsability. Perhaps these are just growing pains...perhaps not.

What it does say to me, at least, loud and clear, is that further withdrawls of any sensitive areas should not be taken until the palestenains sort themselves out and create some stability within their own society..an implosion wont do anybody any good..

[OrcaStraight]

14. I suppose...

...every war can be broken down into individual, criminal acts when one takes the word 'war' out of the equation...

The crux of the issue is that the Palestinians have, at the root of their complaints, wanted two things: their own land and jobs with which to build their society upon that land.

Thus, when they take both those things that have been handed to them--virtually on a silver platter--and conspicuously trashed them in front of the whole world, it is more than juvenile 'boosting', minor vandalism, or copper wire missing from a construction site.

As far as the 'wider Palestinian population' goes, are they rooting out the 'local criminals' that have done this? Is their justice system involved? Has any Palestinian even spoken out about what happened?

No?

THAT'S what paints this as something that has political ramifications--and not simple filching from the corner drugstore.

[barb162]

23. And how many people will want to keep donating to Palestinians

when they read this sort of story...money down the drain

[Violet_Crumble]

26. There isn't a war happening...

So why's it in the equation in the first place? If it's a war, where's the POW's?

And when you can show me how other populations, such as the Americans, are rooting out their 'local criminals' that commit crime and have a justice system that isn't a complete joke, then you would make some sense asking the same question about the Palestinians. In the meantime, it looks very much like picking on the Palestinians for the sole reason that they're Palestinian..

Anyone who thinks that Gaza or the West Bank is or will be crime-free isn't thinking realistically...

Violet...

[Tom Joad]

13. Police Appear Handcuffed As Mob Feud Rages in Israel

http://www.forward.com/articles/7085

JERUSALEM — The anti-crime division of Israel's national police was under pressure to produce answers this week after a Netanya neighborhood was hit by an anti-tank missile apparently aimed at a reputed organized-crime boss.

No one was hurt in the December 22 missile attack, which left a large crater in the street outside the home of alleged crime kingpin Assi Abutbul. Neighbors complained that the missile narrowly missed destroying a residential building. Abutbul and several bodyguards were questioned and released.

The blast appeared to be the latest incident in a continuing gang war that has left a string of bodies across Israel, Europe and South America in the past five years, as rival Israeli crime families struggle for control of lucrative gambling operations.
.......

Could it be that it is not only Palestine that has its problems?
How could it be that this allegedly "Superior society" is having a Mob Feud in the streets... complete with "Anti-Tank missiles" even!

Word was that the prime minister just barely escaped being arrested in a corruption scandal.

The point is, it ain't just in Palestine. Our concern here is to talk about US policy as it relates to Israel and Palestine. If you want to think of societies that do not have crime or rivalries or internal problems that are self-defeating then take a sleeping pill or two and have those dreams.

The rest of us want to stay awake and deal with reality. We want to do everything we can to make sure US policy is doing its best to foster peace and an end to the conflict that causes so much pain and suffering. There is nothing in the story about the greenhouses that justifies the destruction of Wadi Fukhin (see "Preserving a piece of Paradise" thread..) or the destruction of Silwan, or all the rest.

Why not think of something positive that can be done. Like supporting the work of Jeff Halper and Ghassan Andoni, who were nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by the American Friends Service Comm. To take a line from the Quakers, better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

[pelsar]

15. wrong subject...

the article was not about criminals it was about the security services, representatives of the PA govt wrecking one of their most important source of jobs and exports that they were in suppose to protect.

(if your looking for a parallel in israel you'll have to find something about an IDF unit ransaking one of the Intel plants...good luck)

the article and question asked, is what kind of society is being developed in Gaza today? a society of law and order or one of tribal wars and war lords?

As it stands today: the euros have left (many running off to israel for safety during the crashing of the palestenain/egytian border), their sole place of relaxation, was bulldozed a couple of weeks ago, the borders are not patrolled, and even if they were, as we saw in the greenhouse destruction, the security forces are not to be relied upon (or in the attack on erez a few days ago...before the attack the PA security "disappeared"

the question now being asked by the palestenians in gaza, for those who are actually listening is: now what?...what are we doing to ourselves....(and a bit of remembering the "good old days" preintifda I)

thats the reality of Gaza....its messy, its conflicting, its cruel and its has immense implications as to the palestenian society not just in gaza but in the west bank as well.

[Scurrilous]

18. More looting news (redux):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=100645&mesg_id=100650

From 9/14/05:

Gaza evacuees: Lax IDF security allows looting

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/619946.html


IDF Soldiers Caught Looting Homes in Gush Katif

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=87907


Israeli Sources Confess Looting of Settler Houses Carried out by Israelis

http://www.ipc.gov.ps/ipc_new/english/details.asp?name=...

What kind of society is being formed in Israel today when representatives of the government loot and steal from their fellow citizens?

[pelsar]

19. caught

and prosecuted...i think you forgot to add that........


and trying to compare israel to the palestenain society in gaza is going to be rather difficult, one will have to ignore certain aspects of the judicial systems, freedom of the press, etc.

and to put it into perspective its also not realistic given that israel is now over 50+ years old and gazas society is one of only a few months old with serious conflicts involving a secular freedom and religious dogma.