Israel plans to build 'museum of tolerance' on Muslim graves

[Benfea]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article344233.ece

The word "ironic" comes readily to mind.

By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
Published: 09 February 2006

Skeletons are being removed from the site of an ancient Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem to make way for a $150m (£86m) "museum of tolerance" being built for the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Centre.

Palestinians have launched a legal battle to stop the work at what was the city's main Muslim cemetery. The work is to prepare for the construction of a museum which seeks the promotion of "unity and respect among Jews and between people of all faiths".

<...>

[Dunvegan]

1. Oy...the need for sensitivity...

...and sensibility has never been so great.

[pocket]

2. thier whole country is built on Muslim graves

literally and figuratively

[cantstandbush]

6. Now that you mention it, you're right. n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

7. and Jewish, and Christian, and Roman, and Cannanite...

[Coastie for Truth]

8. And the "Jordanians" or "Palestinians" or whoever they are

used Jewish graves to build privies.

[Lefty48197]

11. Despicable.

Reminds of of then the Nazis used Jewish gravemarkers as road pavement.

[Coastie for Truth]

19. No - that was in Jerusalem after the 1948 war

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Got any actual proof?

Y'know, credible stuff from a reliable source? It's not to say I don't believe it, coz shit things happened during the war on both sides, but I've been burnt before where I find out that things that get claimed aren't factual at all...

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

90. Please! The Mufti of Jerusalem, who actually worked with

Hitler during WWII, used this graveyard in 1927:

•In 1927, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el Husseini, (a pro-Nazi supporter of Hitler) issued a religious ruling that forbade continued burials in this area in order to change its use to a commercial designation so that the land could be used as an economic impetus for Arab growth.

•In 1929, the Grand Mufti, initiated the building of the Palace Hotel on the southern part of the Mamilla cemetery and re-interred human remains found during construction, as already then the cemetery was considered ‘Mundras’ (abandoned), which according to Moslem law would permit it to be used for public purposes.

•Moreover, at that time, the High Moslem Council set an area of the cemetery for public buildings and an Arab university which was never built due to lack of funds.

• On June 7, 1964, the issue was brought before the Sha’aria (Moslem Religious Law) Court. The president of this Moslem Court of Appeals in Jaffa ruled the cemetery “a Mundras…that its sanctity has ceased to exist in it…and it is permitted to do whatever is permitted to do in any other land which was never a cemetery….” To this day, this religious law approach that permits graves to be moved for public and/or commercial use purposes remains in effect in Moslem countries like Egypt and Lebanon.


http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nl/content.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=312458&content_id={0B4B867C-097D-46B4-A5DA-34A0F45509FE}¬oc=1

The above information is easily verifiable; it's a matter of public record.

[Benfea]

14. That doesn't justify this.

If you are building a museum to religious tolerance, you don't dig up a 1000 year old cemetary to build it. You can either make the argument that a museum should be built or that Muslims deserve to have their cemetary molested, but you can't argue for both without sounding like a functional retard or a Freeper (same thing, I guess).

[barb162]

33. why not?

Haven't you ever seen graves moved for an expressway or other building project?

Plus
"While parties to the work are resting part of their case on what they say was an 1894 ruling by the then Sharia court that the sanctity of a cemetery could be lifted, Mr Sabri said that ruling meant that only a Muslim could make such a decision.

Osnat Goaz, a spokeswoman for the Israel Antiquities Authority, which is carrying out the excavations, said it was common in Jerusalem to build on cemeteries. Adding that in such cases the bones were reburied, she said: "Israel is more crowded with ancient artefacts than any other country in the world. If we didn't build on former cemeteries, we would never build"

[Violet_Crumble]

39. That's funny...

I remember some people taking an entirely different attitude when it came to last year's disengagement and the dismantling of synagogues and moving the dead back to Israel. Amazing how the sensitivity-level changes with some folk depending on whether it's Muslims or Jews who are being affected...

Violet...

[barb162]

43. Maybe it has more to do with 1000 year old bones than with

someone buried 4 weeks ago. Ya' think?

[Violet_Crumble]

45. I'd be thinking remains that are so old are worth protecting...

But somehow it seems to be the attitude of those who carried on about the remains of Jewish settlers remains being moved from Gaza has nothing to do with age (as the remains of Jewish settlers were at most a few decades old) but more about having a completely contradictory belief depending on whether the bones belong to Muslims or Jews...

Violet...

[barb162]

71. It is justified; Palestinians used cemetery land for a hotel

"In the late 1920s, the Palestinian leader and mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, sanctioned the relocation of bones found during construction of a hotel built by the Supreme Muslim Council on former cemetery grounds." snip

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0602100194feb10,1,4874880.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

[Colorado Blue]

91. But the cemetary had already been decommisioned BY THE

MUSLIMS.

Hello?

They stopped burying people in it and started using it for commercial purposes in 1927.

[Colorado Blue]

95. The plans are to respectfully rebury the bones and erect a

monument to the dead.

I don't recall hearing all this outrage when Jewish bones were dug out Gaza and the Sinai.

Apparently that's acceptable.

Also, where's some outrage for the excavations going on under the al Aqsa mosque, which sits on top of Judaism's holiest site - the Western Wall?

[Violet_Crumble]

113. I don't recall seeing all this support for digging up bones a while back..

In fact, you were outraged about the bones of settlers being moved back to Israel. So can I ask why yr now in full and total support of digging up Muslim bones?

Violet...

[barb162]

124. I don't see any outrage by you over a hotel built by the Muslims

[Colorado Blue]

96. Please see post #105.

Things are not the same in a part of the world where layer upon layer of civilizations have been built on top of each other, and this particular site has been used commercially for decades, and it is also considered acceptable to move graves in the Muslim world.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. So this makes building a 'tolerance' museum on a burial site okay?

Right now all I can make out is that there seems to be a bit of a 'well, so and so did it too!!!!!' thing happening in this thread. But the thing is why does that make any of it right?

btw, you don't need to put quotations round Palestinian or say 'whoever they are'. They're Palestinian, and no-one disputes what they are...

Violet...

[barb162]

37. per article:"it was common in Jerusalem to build on cemeteries".

[Violet_Crumble]

41. I asked you what *you* thought...

My question was whether *you* think it's okay to build a TOLERANCE museum on a Muslim cemetary in the circumstances this one is being built. I didn't ask you to quote a sentence from one person in an article.

I'll take it based on past experience in this forum, and that this is being built on a Muslim cemetary that you are 100% totally supportive of this and see nothing wrong with tolerance museums being built in this way. Correct me if I'm wrong, okay?

Violet...

[barb162]

44. answer was sufficient , Violet, I'll quote if I feel like it

:hi:

[Violet_Crumble]

46. I didn't tell you that you couldn't quote...

I merely pointed out that I find it strange when asking some people for their opinion, they're incapable of doing anything but copying someone elses words which don't give a yes or no answer...

As I said, I'm clear on yr support of this project, and while I find it disgusting and appalling that anyone would hold that view, I respect yr right to hold it :)

Violet...

[Name removed]

47. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

9. Thanks for the reminder

Although the population of Christians in that area dwindles constantly under the threat of murder, it still is the ancient birthland of Christianity.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. 'Under the threat of murder'??

Where is this rubbish coming from?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

128. Notice

Please be more specific when using the phrase "Palestinian/Israeli violence/terrorism/lawlessness" as such imprecise language is stereotypical and thus inappropriate for use and will be removed. Please make sure your usage explicitly defines the individuals you wish to label in such perjorative language.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator

[Tom Joad]

54. Why not listen to Palestinian Christians directly?

Who say they are being threatened by Israeli occupation.

http://www.fosna.org/pdf/Cornerstone_Issue_39.pdf

or here:
For its part, the wall of separation will really never separate or protect. Quite to the contrary, it will only increase hate, ignorance of the other, and, therefore, hostility toward the other and, as a further consequence, violence and insecurity. What is needed is a search, in all humility, for the underlying causes of the violence. In all humility and sincerity, the cries of the poor and the oppressed must be heard. Ending the oppression and the humiliation of the Palestinians would at the same time put an end to the fear and insecurity of the Israelis. It would also put an end to those who are exploiting the attendant oppression and the poverty.


The wall of separation will not produce secure borders. Only friendly hearts can produce them. With friendly hearts, all borders will become pure symbols and disappear before the life and joy that will come from being able to live in peace and fraternity.

http://www.ffhl.org/newsmanagerdotnet/templates/latest.aspx?articleid=30&zoneid=1

[Violet_Crumble]

61. I've wondered the same thing...

I think the answer is that it's coz there's no genuine desire to listen, unless the voices that are being listened to are one or two anonymous Christians who are quoted in the US conservative media, and who tap into the whole Evil Muslims!!!! thing that is so popular in the US :(

Violet...

[barb162]

119. Christians anxious over Hamas victory

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=5224
PALESTINE
Christians anxious over Hamas victory
by Abu Mahmud

There is widespread unease but no certainty that situation of Christians will deteriorate in the Palestinian territories. Church authorities will seek reconfirmation of the February 15, 2000, Basic Agreement between the Holy See and the Palestine Liberation Organisation that guarantees religious freedom, upholds established Church rights and protects the Holy Sites.


Bethlehem (AsiaNews) – “A disaster, Hamas’s victory is a disaster for Christians,” said an agitated K. M., a Palestinian Christian from Bethlehem after poll results from yesterday’s elections showed the Islamist party gaining 77 of the 132 seats in the new Palestinian legislative council.
snip
“Hamas is a fundamentalist movement. Now with an absolute majority they can adopt any law. They are likely to pass law inspired by the Sharia,” he said. “Some have promised that they are going to impose taxes on Christians the way they used long time ago.”
snip

[Djinn]

125. Hosam al-Taweel

obviously doesn't shre their trepidation

[geezer1]

16. Israel

Why do people persist in a campaign to delegitimize Israel? Israel has done nothing to you. It is one small nation in a sea of Arabs and Muslims.

[pocket]

17. so if I only take over one small room in your house you wont mind?

plus, of course, kill the family member who was living there when I arrived.

Hey, it's a big house! You have a big family! What's the big deal?

[geezer1]

20. What Other Nations are Illegitimate?

Are there any other nations that don't meet your criteria for continued existence? Israel has existed for 56 years, and will no doubt exist long after you are gone.

[Coastie for Truth]

22. But what if the mortgage speculator (UK or France)

comes along and says to an earlier owner (Turkey) with tenants (some Jews, more Arabs, Egyptians, Kurds, Assyrians, Chaldeans, etc) get out - I'm foreclosing (I won WW 1 and you lost, dude), and tells the tenants - I am going to do a conversion and sell units to my friends - so I'm going to move you around. (happens in SF every day).

Not fair - but heck life ain't fair. Complain to Supervisor Ammiano or Peskin or go all the way to Mayor Newsome.

[Colorado Blue]

97. Maybe you would be interested in reading about the

situation in Darfur, or possibly the invasion of East Timor in Indonesia, or maybe what happened in "East Pakistan" - Bangladesh?

More than 2,000,000 people - Christians and Animists primarily, have been rendered homeless in Darfur, hundreds of thousands killed. The Sudan, as I'm sure you know, is a member of the Arab League.

Between 500,000 and 1,000,000 people were killed when Muslim Indonesians invaded Christian East Timor. 3,000,000 people died in the violence in Bangladesh.

The people of Israel are merely trying to survive. The Middle East is now almost completely judenrein; since 1948 ancient Jewish communities throughout the Middle East have been persecuted and expelled. They and their descendants are now the majority of Israel's citizens. More than a million Israeli Arabs are citizens as well. The remnants of European Jewry, decimated by the Holocaust, found a home here, as did victims of Soviet oppression.

Yet in spite of all the wars and the terror and the constant threats of extinction, the Israelis have created a vibrant, multicultural society.

I think she and her people deserve a little more support than these snide and cruel comments.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. That's right , geezer...

The sooner people get back to deletimizing Arabs and Muslims by potraying them as genocidal monsters, then we can all breathe just a little bit easier...

Welcome to DU, btw!

Violet...

[barb162]

35. In an area that has been lived on for more than 5000 years

there are probably graveyards on top of graveyards on top of graveyards. And since there were people living and dying there for thousands of years before Islam, do you wonder what is built on Jewish cemetaries, Christian cemetaries, etc .

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Yes, but the concept of a *tolerance* museum being built...

...on a Muslim cemetary must surely strike you as being something that's not particularly great sensitivity-wise? Also, vague references to what might have happened in the past does not justify it being done now, so I don't understand why this common theme of 'someone else somewhere else long ago did something similar that had nothing to do with a tolerance museum but I'll mention it' keeps reappearing...

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

89. Excuse me? Perhaps you should read "The Source", by

James Michener.

The Land of Israel predates the Muslim world by millenia.

[Violet_Crumble]

111. Excuse me??

As the poster you replied to wasn't getting into one of those eternally stupid 'waaah!! but whoever I support was there first!!!' yr reply is a bit strange and disturbing...

Isn't the book you talk about one of those hybrid fiction/history books written for entertainment purposes and the best sellers list? That's why 'The Land Of Israel' would be passed off as the equivalent of a modern nation-state, I guess?

Violet...

[Caoimhe]

3. Yeah, that'll help

My God, the irony.

[xchrom]

4. colour me surprised.

uh -- not so much:eyes:

[cantstandbush]

5. Another provocation to make certain that there is no peace in the ME. n/t

[Poll_Blind]

10. Would those killed in the holocaust approve? I doubt it.

Disgusting exhibitions of this nature cheapen the memories of those killed in the holocaust.

PB

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pocket]

15. cha-ching!

.

[Benfea]

18. It sounds more and more this group doesn't give a crap about tolerance

What a bunch of slime bags.

[Coastie for Truth]

23. Tell me about tolerance

I'm a PhD chem engineer (that's petroleum refinery centric engineering) - and the Arab League says - "If you, Mr. ExxonMobil or Mr. TexacoChevron, want to buy our crude - you can't have Jewish engineers or geologists or chemists ....on your payroll" --- so, I have never worked for an oil company. I've been a guvment safety and environmental regulator - but never an employee. :( (or maybe :hi: )

Tolerance goes two ways.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. That would mean US oil companies have discriminatory employment policy...

In fact, that employment policy would be anti-Semitic, which is why I'm going to say that I think there may be some other reason why you've never found employment with an oil company. Claiming that there's a company policy where Jews are not employed just sounds way too dodgey to believe, Coastie...

Violet...

[barb162]

34. The oil companies are quite well known to be anti-semitic

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Somehow I really doubt that...

Coastie claiming he can't gain employment with them because they've got policies which prohibit employing Jews, and you agreeing with what he says isn't exactly convincing. What I would like to see to convince me that US oil companies have anti-Semitic hiring policies is something in writing where they state that is their policy. And the obvious question that has to be answered is if the US oil companies haven't employed Coastie coz of their supposed policy of not hiring Jews, then why is it that the US oil companies do have Jewish employees?

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

53. In response

You have asked

Coastie claiming he can't gain employment with them because they've got policies which prohibit employing Jews, and you agreeing with what he says isn't exactly convincing. What I would like to see to convince me that US oil companies have anti-Semitic hiring policies is something in writing where they state that is their policy. And the obvious question that has to be answered is if the US oil companies haven't employed Coastie coz of their supposed policy of not hiring Jews, then why is it that the US oil companies do have Jewish employees?

An interesting discussion is in a Daily Californian op ed. The Daily Californian is the student newspaper of the University of California at Berkeley, hardly a neocon or PNAC university, in a most un-Neoco, un-PNAC community. by University of California alumnus and University of California at Davis faculty member Joe Lockard--

<<<SNIP>>>
The original boycott was xenophobic in that it represented a political and economic strategy to contain, isolate, monitor and eventually destroy what it perceived as an alien presence. Inviolable borders had to be maintained against subversive infiltration. It sought to preserve a hegemonic definition of territory as Arab, rejecting peaceful relations with an entity deemed fundamentally illegitimate. A boycott was a weapon to eliminate an "artificial" presence that had no right to exist.

Boycott officials in Damascus pored over corporate reports from around the world to identify both intercorporate links (e.g. did your company deal with another company that had dealings with Israel?) and Jewish agents of power. Routine administrative forms circulated to collect information on the religion and national origin of corporate employees. The Central Boycott Office issued "non-Jew" certificates to foreign organizations.

A Jewish name was enough to ensure that you would not be hired at large firms with major projects in Arab countries; a new class of closeted Jews appeared in response and there was a run on false baptismal certificates. (emphasis not in original)

The boycott's intellectual terms were changing, however. In 1975 came UN Resolution 3379 (repealed in 1991) equating Zionism with racism and apartheid, which served as the political analogy that would justify maintaining an isolation containment around that alien presence. The Arab League affirmed its solidarity with the then-rising anti-apartheid boycott and began conceptually re-positioning its own boycott. What changed was less the original purposes and methods of the anti-Israel boycott, more its rhetorical references that relied on stigmatizing one nationalism among all others.
<<<SNIP>>>

you might also consider this enforcement action (note: the oil companies do not voluntarily request this kind of guidance)---->

Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Export Enforcement Michael J. Garcia announced today that Johns Hopkins Health System Corporation in Baltimore, Maryland has agreed to pay the maximum $10,000 civil penalty to settle charges that it violated U.S. antiboycott laws by discriminating against an individual in support of the Arab League boycott of Israel. Johns Hopkins Health System Corporation voluntarily disclosed the incident and cooperated fully with the subsequent investigation.

"As Under Secretary of Commerce for Industry and Security Kenneth I. Juster recently made clear, the Commerce Department will vigorously enforce our antiboycott laws," Assistant Secretary Garcia noted. "This case demonstrates that resolve."

The Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) had charged that in 1995, Johns Hopkins Health System Corporation discriminated against a U.S. person because she was Jewish. The person had been seeking a position in the company's International Services Department, which markets medical services around the world, including in the Middle East. BIS believes that the discriminatory conduct was motivated by the company's concern about having a Jewish person in that position because of the Arab League boycott of Israel.

The antiboycott provisions of the Export Administration Regulations prohibit U.S. persons from complying with certain aspects of unsanctioned foreign boycotts imposed or fostered by foreign governments, including taking discriminatory actions on the basis of religion or national origin. In addition, the antiboycott regulations require U.S. persons to report their receipt of certain boycott requests to the BIS's Office of Antiboycott Compliance (OAC), which investigates alleged violations, provides support in administrative or criminal litigation of cases, and prepares cases for settlement.

Assistant Secretary Garcia commended Senior Compliance Officer Cathleen A. Ryan who conducted the investigation of this case for OAC.

See also

Note to Mod - This is a United States Government Press Release and therefore is not subject to copyright

You might also want to look at "The economic war against the Jews" by Walter Henry Nelson.

I have stuck with articles that have a good narrative. In order to avoid antagonism, I have avoided reference to Jewish community newspapers, and to PNAC-Neocon periodical (such as Commentary).

The Daily California link, while recent, describes the situation when I was in college, the military, and grad school (1960's and early 1970's). Based on 1990's era Equal Employment Opportunity Commission cases, the boycott still seems to exist. The Johns Hopkins Health Services link is typical.

[Violet_Crumble]

59. Thanks for the links, Coastie...

I've read through the first one, and I'll read the others later tonight. A question I've got is why are US oil companies required to supply Arab states with their employee records? Because if they don't, then how do the Arab states know who the individual employees are? What I learnt about the major oil companies last year was fleeting, and I nodded off a bit coz the lecturer insisted on talking about transfer pricing, which bores me to tears, so I may well have gotten this wrong, but I got the impression that because of the way the oil companies own and control the infrastructure, they exert more control of the oil supply than the states where the oil comes from. Without the oil companies and their ability to get and move the oil, the flow of money would dry up and all that oil sitting in the ground would be worth virtually nothing. Which is why that oil embargo in the 70's pissed off the US so much that it took steps to make sure it would never be left in that position again. Anyway, if that's the case, then I would have thought that the oil companies could employ anyone they like and no-one and nothing can do anything about it...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

80. Coastie?

Just in case you missed my question, I thought I'd pop up here and just remind you I'm here :)

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

81. Kick for Coastie...

[barb162]

55. that's like asking a company to put in writing they don't like to hire

women or blacks or Asians. What company would ever do that when there are EEO laws? The telling thing is the census. Oops, no blacks or women or Jews in the higher paying positions. It would be ridiculous to ask for such a document as proof as no law dept. of any oil company (or any other firm)would ever allow such a document to be signed...it would be against the law and an open admission of same. Because there's no document that states "We discriminate against Jews" doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. So I just have to take yr word for it??

What you are trying to describe is indirect discrimination, but you fail to show any incidents of where it has happened to support yr claim. And one of the problems I see is that there are some folk who accuse everything and everyone of being about anti-Semitism, and no-one but other folk who accuse everyone and everything of being about anti-Semitism is going to take them seriously...

Now if you want to provide some sort of proof that no Jews are employed by the oil companies, then I'd be inclined to think there's something to it. And the biggie for me would be explaining why US oil companies have to share their employee records with Arab states, and why those employee records would include such personal information such as whether an individual is Jewish or not...

Violet...

[barb162]

60. No, you don't have to take my word for it

I certainly am not going to go to the trouble of getting oil company EEOC reports to prove something on a board

[Violet_Crumble]

62. Good. Coz I've got no intention of doing so...

Coastie has taken the time and effort to find some stuff for me to read, and though what I've read still hasn't convinced me, I'm pretty sure he'll make a genuine attempt to answer any questions I have about the issue...

Violet...

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

30. So in retribution you want this to go forward?

Because of your job problems, you want Muslim graves to be desecrated?

[Coastie for Truth]

31. That is not what I said - and I wish you would stop misquoting me

[Tom Joad]

32. I'm sorry, yes, you did not say that.

You were not clear that you were opposed to this project, either.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. And you didn't misquote him...

You asked him if that were his stance, and I think it was a very reasonable stance as he hasn't made it clear whether or not he does oppose the project...

Anyway, what he claims was you misquoting him was very clearly a question, not a statement of what he does or doesn't believe...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

51. Apology acepted.

BTW "Because of your job problems" is in correct. It is because of the job problems historically faced by Jewish applicants in the petroleum industry -- you might want to stop by the Chem EDepartment and to talk to some of the older faculty.

[Djinn]

126. that's a complete and total lie

and an opinion piece written by a member of the English faculty is hardly evidence of what you're claiming, especially as the "facts" in his piece aren't sourced in any way

[Colorado Blue]

92. Speaking of tolerance there are several posts on this

thread that are just flat disgusting.

Apparently a disused graveyard, that was decommissioned in 1927 by the Mufti of Jerusalem, who worked with Adolph Hitler during WWII, and which was confirmed as being acceptable for commercial development by a Sharia court, is more important to several people participating here than the continuing life of Jerusalem - a living, breathing city.

I think that the outcry here, when it was established LONG AGO that this cemetary wasn't sacred, and also since SWC has planned a memorial for the dead and the careful reburial of the bodies, is sheer political opportunism.

[Violet_Crumble]

118. That's a mighty weird use of the word tolerance...

See, it's the posts that are almost gleeful about the digging up of Muslim bones that are pretty disgusting....

I'm curious to know why yr fine with a decommissioned graveyard being dug up despite the wishes of its owners, but took a completely opposite stance when it came to decommissioned synagogues in Gaza. Here's what you said then and there were more posts in the thread using those words 'respect' etc...

A second point: whether the buildings themselves had meaning after the Torahs, etc, were removed does not mitigate against the horror of destroying them. Symbolically and emotionally, that is a potent issue.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=100420#100626

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

93. Maybe you should be complaining to the ghost of the Mufti

of Jerusalem, who defiled these same graves when he built a hotel.

[fujiyama]

21. Hmmm...

Building a museum for tolerance over another group's gravesite? Not exactly very tolerant or sensitive.

[Tom Joad]

29. This is not just any cemetery, but

What was the "city's main Muslim cemetery". It has been a cemetery for 1,000 years.

It's not like it was used for a decade back in the 8th century, but a thousand years it has been the cemetery. So even after death Arabs cannot rest in peace.

It would be like turning St Pat's into a parking lot for Walmart. Some people would be very upset.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. What I find disturbing...

...is that people who are trying to claim this is just another cemetary, that this happens all the time, etc, are very aware of the importance of this particular cemetary and for their own reasons don't care, or actually think it's very important to wipe even that history of Arabs in Jerusalem out of the way. It's really sad...

Violet...

[pelsar]

75. that is exacty what it is....

"is that people who are trying to claim this is just another cemetary, that this happens all the time"

and it happens all the time in israel, jewish. muslim and christian bones get dug and reburied..and the orthodox jews get all pissed about it when the bones are jewish and have protests and throw rocks....and thats it.

the "news" is not really news at all....its was simply written up, like some say about the cartoons were, to stir up trouble.

[eyl]

49. It might have been the "main" cemetary centuries ago

today, it isn't.

The land wasn't a cemetery when we got it from city hall and the government and we are waiting to know the (court's) decision," the spokesman, Hagai Elias, said.

Muslim leaders say the parking lot on which the museum is planned is above remnants of a Muslim cemetery on land owned by the Muslim Waqf, a religious trust, and confiscated by Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

50. How does a cemetary stop being a cemetary?

Do the bodies just up and walk away? And if the land was owned by the Muslim Waqf and was confiscated by Israel, then any organisation wanting to genuinelly build a tolerance museum should be looking for somewhere to build it that's not involving doing it on an ancient burial site on land that was confiscated from its owners. That just seems like a total no-brainer to me...

Violet...

[barb162]

57. when it's used as a parking lot

per the Haarertz article

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Wrong...

The bodies are still there, so it's still a burial site. And whoever whacked a car park there deserves a kick up the arse, imo. It's amazing the complete lack of respect given to anything Muslim in some circles...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

65. Wrong...

It's a parking lot!

"The land wasn't a cemetery when we got it from city hall and the government and we are waiting to know the (court's) decision," the spokesman, Hagai Elias, said.

Muslim leaders say the parking lot on which the museum is planned is above remnants of a Muslim cemetery on land owned by the Muslim Waqf, a religious trust, and confiscated by Israel."

source

[barb162]

72. Palestinians used cemetery for a hotel, so do they deserve a kick

"up the arse" too? Re:" It's amazing the complete lack of respect given to anything Muslim in some circles..."



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0602100194feb10,1,4874880.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

"...In the late 1920s, the Palestinian leader and mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, sanctioned the relocation of bones found during construction of a hotel built by the Supreme Muslim Council on former cemetery grounds..."

After all the bones will be removed for the Weienthal Center also.

[Violet_Crumble]

78. That's not the same cemetary, barb...

And from the little you did post (I couldn't get to the article to read it as registration is needed), the bones were found AFTER construction had started, and it sounds like the relocation was done in a respectful manner and sanctioned by Muslim religious leaders. Contrast that to an ancient cemetary where the owners have had the land taken from them by Israel, and the building of a *tolerance* museum on the burial site. There's nothing the slightest bit tolerant about that, and if this museum is truly about tolerance, they'd have the common-sense to build it somewhere where there's no chance of destroying ancient burial sites, coz I doubt any *tolerance* museum would like even the slightest whiff of being involved in the continual attempts to strip Jerusalem of as much of the former presence of Palestinians as possible...

Violet...

[barb162]

86. it's the same cemetery

[Violet_Crumble]

104. So could you post the bit of the article that says it's the same one?

I can't get to the article to read it as its registration only. Also, did you read the rest of my post where I explained why there's a hell of a difference? I'd be interested in hearing yr thoughts about what I said...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

106. see post #72

It is the same cemetery.

[Violet_Crumble]

108. And what difference does this make?

You can't see the difference between the sanctioned removal of bones by the owners of a cemetary and what some people want to happen now? I've pointed it out several times already that there's a massive difference between the sanctioned removal of bones by the owners of the site, as opposed to a plan to construct a supposed tolerance museum on land that has been taken by force from its owners...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

109. 5 years

They didn't know what was there or could possibly be there? I don't buy it. There is only one reason they don't want the museum.

[Violet_Crumble]

110. Yr going to have to explain the '5 years' thing...

It doesn't seem to address what I said in my post, and I read through the article you posted and couldn't see it...

What's the reason you think 'they' don't want the museum? Also, there's been nothing at all said by anyone saying that the museum shouldn't be built - it's where it's being built that's the issue...

Violet....

[Behind the Aegis]

112. read post #99

[Violet_Crumble]

114. Oh, that. That bunch has got a vested interest...

and I think it's only reasonable to get information from a secondary source before it's to be believed. The habit of deliberately keeping proposed plans low-key and afterwards the planners say 'yes! but we had it on display for so many years!!' is something I would imagine happens in Jerusalem, just like it does everywhere else...

Also, you didn't answer my question where I asked about yr comment about there being only one reason why 'they' didn't want the museum. So, what's the reason you think 'they' don't want the museum?

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

115. Question

They don't want a Jewish building on their land.

As for "vested interests," what a curious statement, considering some of the filth that passes for gospel here.

[Violet_Crumble]

116. Interesting...

Why is me pointing out that they have a vested interest in proceedings a curious statement, and what has it got to do with anything else posted in this forum?

And why do you think 'they' don't want a Jewish building on their land? Until now, I hadn't seen anyone refer to this proposed tolerance museum as a 'Jewish building'...

Violet...

[eyl]

67. It stops being used;

as generations pass, people stop visiting it, stuff is built on its edges and starts encroaching inward, and so on. Eventually, people forget it was there until excavations (whether archeological or for construction) turn up old bones. Again - this cemetary has, as I understand, been inactive for centuries (at least).

And I'd like to see some corroberation it was confiscated from the Waqf, given that the Waqf retained the lands it owned following 1967.

EDIT - I see in post 72 that the cemetary was in use until about 80 years ago. Nevertheless, considerable parts of it have been used for other purposes - both under Jewish and Muslim administrations - with no outcry until now.

[Tom Joad]

52. It was confiscated. By military force. That is not "tolerence". eom

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

100. I guess folks would prefer it be used as a parking lot huh.

That makes a WHOLE lot of sense.

[barb162]

102. You got it! n/t

[Colorado Blue]

117. Wouldn't a great museum be a more fitting monument to the

dead than a parking lot or commercial building?

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

99. How did Jordan acquire it? How did the British acquire it?

The Turks, the Arabs, the Romans?

HMMMMM.

Seems to me Jerusalem was seized from its original builders by military force.

And who have been the majority inhabitants of this city? Who has lived here continuously for 3,000 years or more? In whose religion is this the most sacred site of all?

Please.

I think TOLERANCE for the Jewish point of view is exactly what is lacking in this, as in all too many threads, not to mention the idea that the entire Middle East is sacred Waqf already.

[Lithos]

127. Jerusalem

Seems to me Jerusalem was seized from its original builders by military force.

I'm sure the Jebusites would agree wholeheartedly.

And who have been the majority inhabitants of this city? Who has lived here continuously for 3,000 years or more? In whose religion is this the most sacred site of all?

The Muslims and Christians held a majority up to about 1840. Prior to that the last time there was a Jewish majority was apx. 77 AD.

As for most sacred, it's a toss up between Christianity and Judaism.

[barb162]

69. Palestinians have used it for other things, like a hotel

so I think any talk about some moral high ground is moot.

snip
"In the late 1920s, the Palestinian leader and mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, sanctioned the relocation of bones found during construction of a hotel built by the Supreme Muslim Council on former cemetery grounds."snip

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0602100194feb10,1,4874880.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

[barb162]

56. Frank Gehry designed center

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=242502

Isn't this site a parking lot now?

This will be a wonderful improvement; Gehry is world-renowned

[Violet_Crumble]

64. So what?

n/t

[barb162]

70. So I like Gehry, that's what

[Wordie]

73. Yoo-hoo! Barb! ...you missed my reply in post #75! eom

[Violet_Crumble]

79. That's not a very convincing argument for building it on a burial site...

n/t

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

103. Saying you like an architect is NOT a convincing reason...

And what do the Muslims do too?

Violet...

[barb162]

123. So what do you think of the hotel?

[barb162]

120. It's far better than parking lots and hotels

[barb162]

121. do you have any convincing arguments about hotels and roads

being built by Muslims on cemeteries

[barb162]

122. got any convincing arguments why Muslims put a hotel on it?

[Violet_Crumble]

129. I don't need to argue something like that...

btw, I'm finding it difficult to return to find multiple posts replying to my one post from the same person, all posted within a few minutes. To make it easier to follow the thread, could you please use the edit button if you post and then realise you've forgotten to add something? It's just that I've noticed this happening in replies to a few of my posts today. Thanks in advance :)

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

66. Scandal

<snip>

The 3-acre construction site is on part of what was once the sprawling Mamilla Cemetery, the largest Muslim graveyard in Jerusalem. In continuous use from the 12th Century until 1927, the cemetery contained hundreds of graves, including the tombs of scores of eminent Muslims: scholars, judges, fighters and holy men.

But after burials were stopped at the cemetery, it fell into disuse, and large parts of it were used for other purposes.

In the late 1920s, the Palestinian leader and mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, sanctioned the relocation of bones found during construction of a hotel built by the Supreme Muslim Council on former cemetery grounds.

A city park was built over much of the land in the 1960s, as well as schools and a hotel. In the 1980s a parking lot was built in the area where the new museum is supposed to go up.

<snip>

source

All that building and no outrage...until now.

[splat@14]

68. Same thread form earlier post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x115759

[barb162]

74. interesting article about Muslim cemetery reuse

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0602100194feb10,1,4874880.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed
Little tolerance evident in museum, critics say


snip
Archeological salvage workers are digging up hundreds of skeletons in a disused, centuries-old Muslim cemetery that now is the site of an ambitious initiative of the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center: construction of The Center for Human Dignity--Museum of Tolerance Jerusalem.
snip
But after burials were stopped at the cemetery, it fell into disuse, and large parts of it were used for other purposes.

In the late 1920s, the Palestinian leader and mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, sanctioned the relocation of bones found during construction of a hotel built by the Supreme Muslim Council on former cemetery grounds.
snip
Such a ruling in 1964 enabled the construction of the park on most of the area of the Mamilla Cemetery, and similar rulings in 2001 allowed the clearing of cemeteries in Egypt for the construction of a ring road around Cairo, according to Shmuel Berkovitz, an Israeli attorney and expert on holy sites who submitted an opinion to the court.
snip

Five points

1. The bones are being dug up before construction begins
2. Muslims do in fact build on their own cemeteries
3. Last person buried was in 1927
4. Muslim scholars state cemeteries can be used for other purposes after 30 yrs.
5. Then why such outrage

[eyl]

82. To put things into perspective, it's not uncommon here

for graves to turn up during construction. The current brouhaha is about Muslim graves, but last year Jewish graves were found during construction of a road near Haifa - AFAIK, the bones were moved rather than the road being rerouted.

I haven't seen any indication that the SWC knew that the area of the construction site in question was part of the graveyard, seeing as it has been out of use for most of a century and the section in question long diverted to other purposes. That ebing so, once the remains were found, work should have stopped pending a determination by the High Court, which is the usual procedure in cases like this (which, again, are not particularly uncommon, both regarding Muslim and Jewish cemetaries). The second part is being done; it's unclear from news articles whether work was stopped or not.


BTW - whoever gave me the heart, thanks :hi:

[Coastie for Truth]

76. Little tolerance evident in museum, critics say

<<<SNIP>>>
But after burials were stopped at the cemetery, it fell into disuse, and large parts of it were used for other purposes.

In the late 1920s, the Palestinian leader and mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, sanctioned the relocation of bones found during construction of a hotel built by the Supreme Muslim Council on former cemetery grounds.

A city park was built over much of the land in the 1960s, as well as schools and a hotel. In the 1980s a parking lot was built in the area where the new museum is supposed to go up.

In its petition to the Israeli Supreme Court, the Al Aqsa Foundation, linked to the Islamic Movement, argues that under religious law, the sanctity of a Muslim cemetery is immutable and that it is forbidden to remove human remains or build on the area.

But expert opinions solicited by the Wiesenthal Center cite rulings by prominent Muslim scholars permitting the use of abandoned cemetery land for farming or construction after the remains have decomposed, a period of more than 30 years.

<<<SNIP>>>

[occuserpens]

77. Nothing is new under the sun

Communists used to have ideological museums: history of revolution, Lenin's, Mao's, etc. This museum of "tolerance" is exactly this kind of thing!

[Scurrilous]

83. ADL: Freeze work on Museum of Tolerance, site of Muslim graves

<snip>

"The Anti-Defamation League Sunday urged that construction of a Museum of Tolerance be suspended, pending resolution of a dispute over Muslim graves recently discovered at the building site in central Jerusalem.

"We encourage a temporary cessation of construction until the issue is resolved in a respectful way acceptable to all parties. To do less would weaken the foundation upon which a museum of tolerance stands."

<snip>

"ADL believes that a Museum of Tolerance in Jerusalem can be an important institution for educating against bias and for respect and understanding," the Anti-Defamation League said in a statement released on Sunday.

"We trust that the same tenets that undergird the museum's mission will be applied to finding a resolution to address the concerns of the Muslim community and the families of those whose graves have been discovered."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/684565.html

[Coastie for Truth]

85. Mass e-mailing to supporters of Weisenthal Center

Statement from the Simon Wiesenthal Center on its Jerusalem Project

You may have read some recent articles in the press regarding the discovery of human remains at the construction site of the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Center for Human Dignity-Museum of Tolerance Jerusalem. Unfortunately many of these articles are inaccurate and we would like to set the record straight.

A group of Islamic organizations petitioned the Supreme Court of Israel to permanently halt the construction of this project on the grounds that it is a Moslem cemetery. Here are the critical points:

• The Center for Human Dignity is being built in the heart of West Jerusalem, on land granted to the Simon Wiesenthal Center by the Government of Israel and the City of Jerusalem. At no time did the Government of Israel or the City of Jerusalem designate the site as a Moslem cemetery. Rather, it had a legal status as a ‘public open space.’ The site ceased to be regarded as a cemetery for many years, both de facto and de jure . No burials have taken place in the Mamilla cemetery since the beginning of the 20th century.

• More importantly, the religious leaders of the Moslem community, have, for many years, regarded this area, including the Center for Human Dignity site, as land which could be developed for public purposes after moving and reburying graves and human remains.

•In 1927, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el Husseini, (a pro-Nazi supporter of Hitler) issued a religious ruling that forbade continued burials in this area in order to change its use to a commercial designation so that the land could be used as an economic impetus for Arab growth.

•In 1929, the Grand Mufti, initiated the building of the Palace Hotel on the southern part of the Mamilla cemetery and re-interred human remains found during construction, as already then the cemetery was considered ‘Mundras’ (abandoned), which according to Moslem law would permit it to be used for public purposes.

•Moreover, at that time, the High Moslem Council set an area of the cemetery for public buildings and an Arab university which was never built due to lack of funds.

• On June 7, 1964, the issue was brought before the Sha’aria (Moslem Religious Law) Court. The president of this Moslem Court of Appeals in Jaffa ruled the cemetery "a Mundras…that its sanctity has ceased to exist in it…and it is permitted to do whatever is permitted to do in any other land which was never a cemetery…." To this day, this religious law approach that permits graves to be moved for public and/or commercial use purposes remains in effect in Moslem countries like Egypt and Lebanon.

• For the last thirty years, the site consisted of two parking lots, an underground (four-level) parking lot, and an open, paved lot bordering the old Mamilla cemetery. Hundreds of cars parked in these lots every day. There were never any objections.

• The Simon Wiesenthal Center initiated a town plan to build a museum on the parcel allocated to it by the Government of Israel and the Municipality of Jerusalem and the City of Jerusalem issued a building permit to construct a museum. For five years during the public planning process, the Center for Human Dignity was the subject of hearings at open City Council meetings, through notices published in both Hebrew and Arabic newspapers, and the architectural model was on public display at City Hall. At no time throughout that entire public process, did a single person or organization come forward to object to the use of the grounds on the premise that the site was a Moslem cemetery.

• All of Jerusalem is layered in memory and history and it is not unusual for construction work in Jerusalem, a 3,000-year-old city, to encounter archeological artifacts and remains. That is why there is a special department called the Israel Antiquities Authority, charged with the special handling of any archeological artifacts or remains that are found. Since the commencement of excavation, the project has been under their supervision, and every instruction has been followed.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center made its case to the Israeli Supreme Court on February 15, 2006 and awaits its decision. Further, the Center is fully committed to finding an acceptable solution according to the highest norms of Judaism and Islam. The Center has offered three possible remedies to the Court, which it would underwrite, including re-interrment of the ancient bones to a Moslem cemetery, erecting a dignified monument to those whose remains were removed, and cleaning up and restoring the adjacent Moslem cemetery, (at SWC expense), which sadly, has been unkempt and neglected for decades.

Unfortunately, some parties wish to pre-empt the Israeli Supreme Court and do not have the courtesy to allow justice to take its course. In so doing, they only embolden those extreme elements whose sole objective is to reclaim the heart of Jerusalem and to permanently stop the construction of the Center for Human Dignity-Museum of Tolerance Jerusalem. They will not succeed!

(emphasis in original)

[barb162]

88. Well that's pretty clear that Muslims dug up bones, put a hotel up

on it, neglected it, desanctified it, etc. Thanks for that Coastie

[Jim Sagle]

101. And the verdict is:

:boring:

"Ain't got time for the jibber jabber." - Mr. T.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

107. Holy crap!

That has got to be the most blatant and totally out-of-place attempt to tie Palestinians to the Holocaust I've ever seen...

Also, no-one in this thread has gone nuclear. Most people understand that disagreeing with someone does not equal 'going nuclear'...

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

98. More actual facts, in case anybody's interested:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395439285&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[not systems]

130. Link TV's Mosaic has film of the cemetery today.

It appears to have historical and archaeological value beyond issues
related to which corrupt religious leaders declared it abandon.

If such leaders sanctioned destroying parts of it in the past for commercial
gain that in no way justifies the continued destruction of this historical site.

It was obvious from the film's that this graveyard contains stone buildings
and structures dating back hundreds or thousands of years.

Erasing the past is the opposite of tolerance.

[genie_weenie]

131. Man, Israel Palestine debates are AWESOME!

Israel side - YELL YELL YELL!
Palestine side - YELL YELL YELL!
3rd Party - Whoa what's all the yelling about?
Israel and Palestine - HOW CAN YOU ASK THAT 3rd Party? YELL YELL YELL! SEE POST N or N+1!

[Spinoza]

132. For the hell of it,

some historical context:

The Israelis hold their land following the British abandonment to them in 1948, at which point they conquered it (after legally purchasing significant areas) against the Arab attempt to do the same. The British title derives from the surrender of these lands by Ottoman Turkey. The Ottoman title derives from the fact that the Ottomans were the native inhabitants of the territory, but of course it doesn’t, because they weren’t. They were invading Turks, no more native to the area than the British. They, in fact, conquered it from the Mamluks in 1517. Who conquered it from the Crusaders in 1291. Who conquered it from the Fatimids in 1099. Who conquered it from the Seljuks in 1098. Who conquered it from the Abbasids. Who conquered it from the Byzantines. Who inherited it from the Romans upon division of the Empire in 395. The Romans had conquered it from the last Jewish kingdom in 63 BC. The Jews had originally conquered it from the Canaanites around 1100 B.C. Before that, it had also been under the ownership of the Egyptians, who conquered it around 1450 BC, and then the Assyrians, followed by Persians and Greeks. Some of these conquerors were mere military overlords, some of them deeply penetrated the social and demographic fabric of the area, in particular the Jewish and Arab conquerors.

There are one hell of a lot of sacred graves to worry about.