Enough

[drdon326]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1063171448488

The world will not help us; we must help ourselves. We must kill as many of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders as possible, as quickly possible, while minimizing collateral damage, but not letting that damage stop us. And we must kill Yasser Arafat, because the world leaves us no alternative.

No one seriously argues with the fact that Arafat was preventing Mahmoud Abbas, the prime minister he appointed, from combating terrorism, to the extent that was willing to do so. Almost no one seriously disputes that Abbas on whom Israel, the US, and Europe had placed all their bets failed primarily because Arafat retained control of much of the security apparatus, and that Arafat wanted him to fail.

The new prime minister, Ahmed Qurei, clearly will fare no better, since he, if anything, has been trying to garner more power for Arafat, not less.
Under these circumstances, the idea of exiling Arafat is gaining currency, but the standard objection is that he will be as much or more of a problem when free to travel the world than he is locked up in Ramallah.

snip

But such a boycott will not happen. Only now, after more than 800 Israelis have died in three years of suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks, has Europe finally decided that Hamas is a terrorist organization. How much longer will it take before it cuts off Arafat? Yet Israel cannot accept a situation in which Arafat blocks any Palestinian break with terrorism, whether from here or in exile. Therefore, we are at another point in our history at which the diplomatic risks of defending ourselves are exceeded by the risks of not doing so.

.....................................................

arafat better not make any long term plans.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. Yes. This is Europe's fault too

Kill as many people as possible. That will bring peace. Makes sense to me. IT's working isn't it?

[Deja Q]

2. Okay, let's kill. Anyone curious as to why they hate and why

nobody wants to COMPROMISE?

Or if that's possible, like I said in GD, religion and nationality are big causes for this type of hate.

You want to kill? Go right ahead. But I want to see you comply. Fully. Go enlist. Get the gun. Go over there. Pull the trigger. Give your bloodlust an orgasm. I have a fetish for watching people do this sort of thing. I want to get off on your hatred!

Kill one side but ignore the other which is just about as bad.

Either nuke the whole fucking region or find a way to get both sides to grow up. Clinton tried the latter. You and Bush have one thing in common and that's your prejudice, though I could be much more explicit in my response.

On edit: Violence begats violence. Killing a bunch of people whose religion ticks you off is only going to exasperate the problem. Kill all the Arabs, is that what you're suggesting?

Would you like it if I went all Hitler on your ass? (Take a guess at what that might mean. But whatever that means, I obviously won't. My ethics and morality prevent me from being that explicit. In other words, such hostility is beneath me. Why isn't it beneath YOU?)

[fedupwithbush]

4. Just one question?

800 Israeli's? How many Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli Army or died from the conditions they live in in that time? We rarely hear. I've read reports from other countries though.

A side note: I read there are Isreali troops defecting because of the things they are told to do to the Palestinians. Many. Wonder why? Maybe this story isn't black and white, few are. Wouldn't it be great to see both sides for a change and not just the Isreal side?

[tinnypriv]

5. 2,453

n/t

[fedupwithbush]

6. Thank you

Don't know if you are absolutely correct, but from what I've seen you are close. I hate to use the lord's name in vane, but "God" why don't we see those numbers on our TV screens?

Just a side note "Lieberman, are you watching?" I haven't picked a candidate yet. I have favorites, but I'm not telling. But your attack on Dean was to me a telling point. You will go down in flames defending Isreal, because of your religion. I want leaders who defend me no matter what religion I am. Nuff said.

[tinnypriv]

22. There is a breakdown of those numbers in a thread in here

The one with Chomsky and Dershowitz as the title (my post, near the bottom - thread is on p2 I think).

Those are Palestinian deaths, not those all killed by the Israeli army BTW.

I don't know the exact figures for that without finding the name of every dead Palestinian and investigating the circumstances. Certainly the numbers are higher than about 600-700 just on initial findings.

I'd suspect the number of innocent Palestinians killed is roughly 70% of the 2,453 total.

[Darranar]

23. Here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=11155#11184">Here.

[RC]

3. What would happen if the Israelis

Would stop killing people and destroying homes and business? It has to stop somewhere. A nuclear power against rock throwers.

[sushi]

32. Exactly!

"Nuclear power against rock throwers."

Why can't the strong one be the wise one and set a good example.

[Resistance]

33. Ariel Sharon has openly answered that

"there is no pressure from anyone" he said. Recently, too.

[newyorican]

7. My fav...

Arafat's death at Israel's hands would not radicalize Arab opposition to Israel; just the opposite. The current jihad against us is being fueled by the perception that Israel is blocked from taking decisive action to defend itself.

"Ground Control to Major Tom..."

[Forkboy]

8. Israel is commiting slow motion suicide

[drdon326]

9. No.....not true.

Israel is sustaining not so slow motion destruction.

Sorry that point is lost to you.

I dont know if arafat will live or die but I wont
shed any tears either way.

[Forkboy]

14. Yes it is

things are only going to get worse.Israels response under Sharon to the terror is NOT the answer,no matter how good it may make some feel.

Violence begets violence...sorry that point is lost on you.And I'm even more sorry for Israel which deserves far better than both Arafat and Sharon leading their fates down a dead end.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Hence the wall

Israel has clearly given up finding any allies in peace among the Palestinian leadership, so it will simply wall them off.

[Forkboy]

25. Yes...thats gonna work

:eyes:

[StandWatie]

29. it could work

Basically they are building the equivalent of a max security prison wall around them, it will be more airtight than Warsaw and just as moral.

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. They can travel

Just not to Israel, which shouldn't be allowed anyhow until there is peace.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. No they can't...

They can't travel from one part of the Occupied Territories to another, because Israel is building that wall deep inside Palestinian territory...

Violet...

[StandWatie]

36. how?

You have seen the thing right? How do you think they are going to get out?

[DuctapeFatwa]

26. You have exposed the Great Deception

Sharon hardly lets a day go by without driving another nail into Israel's coffin.

A few know it, and don't care as long as they get their money.

There are a few poor souls who sincerely believe that Israel can simply kill everybody within a radius of 2000 miles or so in all directions and things will just be fine.

[Scurrilous]

10. Blessed are the peacemakers..

A decade ago, Arafat and Rabin stood together on the Whitehouse lawn and shook hands after the signing of the Oslo accords. Oslo in now in tatters, Rabin has been murdered, and the murder of Arafat is being openly discussed. Happy anniversary Oslo.

[jos]

11. Why stop at Arafat?

Why don't they just kill every Palestinian? That would be the "final solution" to the Palestinian problem.:tinfoilhat:

[Resistance]

24. newyorican bolded these lines in another thread ...

from today's Haaretz article on the situation:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=339396&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

Deputy cabinet minister Zvi Hendel of the
ultra-right National Union party said the
government should not stop at expelling Arafat.
Hendel said before the security cabinet meeting
that West Bank and Gaza Palestinians themselves
would welcome a move by Israel to oust all of
the thousands of Palestinian officials,
fighters, and family members who at the outset
of the Oslo peace process accompanied PLO chief
Arafat back from exile in Tunis to the
territories.

[Gimel]

12. What ever happened to...

the arch enemies, those horrible , evil terrorists bin Laden and Saddam? Seems like they eluded their would be assassins. Arafat's no different. His grip on power is deep. but he'll just slip away like the others.

[the_sam]

13. Complete Demagoguery

The world will not help us; we must help ourselves. We must kill as many of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders as possible, as quickly possible, while minimizing collateral damage, but not letting that damage stop us. And we must kill Yasser Arafat, because the world leaves us no alternative.

Assassinations are clearly a violation of international law. Of course, I'm sure that doesn't much matter to Israel, since it violates international law all the time.

More killings will not make Israel safer. They will only serve to incite Palestinian anger and create more suicide bombers. If Israel were to pursue such a policy, the conflict would explode into all-out war, with many more dead on both sides.

And Israeli policy has never been one of "minimizing collateral damage". Almost 80 percent of those killed since September 2000 were not attacking Israeli targets, and were not killed in assassinations. To even begin to suggest that Ariel Sharon, the mastermind of Unit 101, Qibya, and Sabra and Shatilla, has any interest in protecting the lives of Palestinian civilians is absurd on its face.

No one seriously argues with the fact that Arafat was preventing Mahmoud Abbas, the prime minister he appointed, from combating terrorism, to the extent that was willing to do so.

I sure as hell do. Much more at fault is the fact that Israel has virtually destroyed the Palestinian security forces. I have never heard this factor mentioned in the corporate media, but it is of great importance.

Arafat convinced the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades to abide by the truce. Abbas, with Arafat's support, was able to intercept shipments of arms and money to Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Almost no one seriously disputes that Abbas on whom Israel, the US, and Europe had placed all their bets failed primarily because Arafat retained control of much of the security apparatus, and that Arafat wanted him to fail.

Arafat was justly reluctant to turn over a great deal of control to Abbas because Abbas was a rival of Arafat in Fatah, selected by the U.S. and Israel in hopes that he'd forsake the Palestinians' most basic demands and settle for a bantustan. He was and is very unpopular among the Palestinian people.

Again, Arafat's control of the security forces had very little to do with recent events. The security apparatus is almost insignificant anyway, mostly because Israel makes it a point to kill security forces personnel and damage their headquarters with every raid it conducts.

But such a boycott will not happen. Only now, after more than 800 Israelis have died in three years of suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks, has Europe finally decided that Hamas is a terrorist organization. How much longer will it take before it cuts off Arafat? Yet Israel cannot accept a situation in which Arafat blocks any Palestinian break with terrorism, whether from here or in exile. Therefore, we are at another point in our history at which the diplomatic risks of defending ourselves are exceeded by the risks of not doing so.

And with well over 2,400 Palestinians dead, the vast majority unarmed civilians, the U.S. still doesn't classify Israel as a terrorist state.

Such was the case in the Six Day War, when Israel was forced to launch a preemptive attack or accept destruction. And when Menachem Begin decided to bomb the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981. And when Israel launched Operation Defensive Shield in Palestinian cities after the Passover Massacre of 2002.

A completely ahistorical account, except for Defensive Shield. Zionists and are the only ones I've encountered who so fanatically believe their myths that even after their leaders admit their fallacy, they're still believed.

In each case, Israel tried every fashion of restraint, every plea to the international community to take action that would avoid the need for "extreme" measures, all to no avail.
When the breaking point arrives, there is no point in taking half-measures. If we are going to be condemned in any case, we might as well do it right.

Certainly not the case. This is especially true regarding the Six Day War, in which Nasser was the one pleading with the international community, not Israel.

Arafat's survival and power are a test of the proposition that it is possible to pursue a cause through terror and not have that cause rejected by the international community. Killing Arafat, more than any other act, would demonstrate that the tool of terror is unacceptable, even against Israel, even in the name of a Palestinian state.

How? Killing Hamas or Jihad or Martyrs Brigades leaders I can see (even though I disagree with it). But Arafat? He hasn't been involved in terrorism since the 1980s, and I challenge anyone to produce compelling evidence to the contrary.

Killing Arafat would be quite a gamble for Israel.

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. I will use Magistate's figures

And dispute your claim that the vast majority of Palestinian deaths were civilian.

[Darranar]

17. The Magistrate's figures...

show that 1,200 innocent Palestinians have been killed by Israelis - whereas 600 or so innocent Israelis have been killed. That's a ratio of 2:1. Still sure you want to use his figures, which I see as very reasonable?

Don't get me wrong. I despise the extremists involved in this conflict; those extremists on both sides that have caused so much horridness and destruction. This violence must end. However, I think you should look at the Magistrate's figures and see all the horrible death and destruction that has been wrought by members of the Israeli populace.

[newyorican]

18. This is kinda morbid

don't you think?

I think the bodies are stacked high enough, without regard to a count. High enough to realize there has been a half century of failed leadership in the region.

Divest and Disengage. Let this colonial experiment sink or swim on its own merit.

[Darranar]

19. Yes, that's true...

those responsible for those innocent deaths deserve MASSIVE punishment. I simply despise them for what they have done to others.

I was just pointing out that the Magistrate's figures simply overturn several of the arguments Muddle has used in the past.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. No, let's not abandon our ally

And just let it try and survive in a sea of enemies.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. I can imagine Saddam supporters saying that in the late 80's...

btw Muddle. Since when have Jordan and Egypt been Israel's enemies?

Violet...

[vierundzwanzig]

20. Based on what?

n/t

[StandWatie]

21. The Magistrate..

views the fact that most of the Palestinian casualties are young men vs. the more or less random ratio of female to male Israeli casualties point out that there is more direction in Israeli violence.

I think Muddle read more into that analysis than was meant.

[The Magistrate]

27. Mr. Watie Mentions An Important Element Of My View, Sir

It is based on the analysis of the Institute for Counter-Terrorism Research (or some such title, my recollection of the name is just now uncertain), which was last placed before us here some months ago by Mr. B. Pilgrim, who old lags will recognize as a devoted supporter of Arab Palestine. There are some arguable features of their analysis, noteably a "probable combatant" catagory based mostly on proximity to combat, but it is a small slice of the figures. In confirmation of the general analysis, however, there is the exhaustive analysis of the casualties at Jenin on the Arab Palestinian side by Human Rights Watch, which presents a similar pattern of slightly more than half being combatants, in the view of that organization, which is rather inclined, if anything, to resolve doubt in favor of non-combatant status. To me, the proportion of those killed is more reflective of intent than the total numbers: these, to my view, reflect more the scale of means available. Those available to the Israeli armed forces are certainly greater than those available to the various irregular Arab Palestinian bodies.

[SOS]

28. "The world will not help us"

Maybe not the world, but -

"An Oct. 27, 2000 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report, using available and verifiable numbers, gives cumulative aid to Israel from 1949 through FY 2000 (which ended Sept. 30, 2000) at $81.38 billion."

[molly]

37. How much does Palestine receive?

[StandWatie]

38. if you don't know..

why do you keep asking?

[Resistance]

39. it's not about learning anything

this is a standard routine molly uses to deflect legitimate criticism of US Foreign policy towards Israel. See this thread for another example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=3658