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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 04:03 AM
Original message
The country that wouldn't grow up
By Tony Judt

By the age of 58 a country - like a man - should have achieved a certain maturity. After nearly six decades of existence we know, for good and for bad, who we are, what we have done and how we appear to others, warts and all. We acknowledge, however reluctantly and privately, our mistakes and our shortcomings. And though we still harbor the occasional illusion about ourselves and our prospects, we are wise enough to recognize that these are indeed for the most part just that: illusions. In short, we are adults.

But the State of Israel remains curiously (and among Western-style democracies, uniquely) immature. The social transformations of the country - and its many economic achievements - have not brought the political wisdom that usually accompanies age. Seen from the outside, Israel still comports itself like an adolescent: consumed by a brittle confidence in its own uniqueness; certain that no one "understands" it and everyone is "against" it; full of wounded self-esteem, quick to take offense and quick to give it. Like many adolescents Israel is convinced - and makes a point of aggressively and repeatedly asserting - that it can do as it wishes, that its actions carry no consequences and that it is immortal. Appropriately enough, this country that has somehow failed to grow up was until very recently still in the hands of a generation of men who were prominent in its public affairs 40 years ago: an Israeli Rip Van Winkle who fell asleep in, say, 1967 would be surprised indeed to awake in 2006 and find Shimon Peres and General Ariel Sharon still hovering over the affairs of the country - the latter albeit only in spirit.

But that, Israeli readers will tell me, is the prejudiced view of the outsider. What looks from abroad like a self-indulgent, wayward country - delinquent in its international obligations and resentfully indifferent to world opinion - is simply an independent little state doing what it has always done: looking after its own interests in an inhospitable part of the globe. Why should embattled Israel even acknowledge such foreign criticism, much less act upon it? They - gentiles, Muslims, leftists - have reasons of their own for disliking Israel. They - Europeans, Arabs, fascists - have always singled out Israel for special criticism. Their motives are timeless. They haven't changed. Why should Israel change?

But they have changed. And it is this change, which has passed largely unrecognized within Israel, to which I want to draw attention here. Before 1967 the State of Israel may have been tiny and embattled, but it was not typically hated: certainly not in the West. Official Soviet-bloc communism was anti-Zionist of course, but for just that reason Israel was rather well regarded by everyone else, including the non-communist left. The romantic image of the kibbutz and the kibbutznik had a broad foreign appeal in the first two decades of Israel's existence. Most admirers of Israel (Jews and non-Jews) knew little about the Palestinian Nakba (catastrophe) of 1948. They preferred to see in the Jewish state the last surviving incarnation of the 19th century idyll of agrarian socialism - or else a paragon of modernizing energy "making the desert bloom."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/711997.html
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Awesome.
Edited on Thu May-04-06 04:28 AM by lvx35
Including its appraisal of the US..Its not really a place to be leaning on right now, that's for sure!

"The fact is that the disastrous Iraq invasion and its aftermath are beginning to engineer a sea-change in foreign policy debate here in the U.S. It is becoming clear to prominent thinkers across the political spectrum - from erstwhile neo-conservative interventionists like Francis Fukuyama to hard-nosed realists like Mearsheimer - that in recent years the United States has suffered a catastrophic loss of international political influence and an unprecedented degradation of its moral image. The country's foreign undertakings have been self-defeating and even irrational. There is going to be a long job of repair ahead, above all in Washington's dealings with economically and strategically vital communities and regions from the Middle East to Southeast Asia."
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Good article...
Edited on Thu May-04-06 05:25 AM by regnaD kciN
...and one which raises, to me, an interesting (and somewhat depressing) point: if Israel has, as the author contends, remained a country with an adolescent outlook, might it be said that what has arisen since this winter's election is a Palestinian government with the outlook of a early teen -- one who. to make up for his sense of powerlessness, has become even more rebellious and defiant, and is driven to act in an especially (and self-destructivly) hostile manner toward the "older brother" who picked on him while he was growing up, and who, the younger sibling is certain, was always favored by the parents?

:shrug:

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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. 'Serbia with nukes'.
From the perceptive article;

'Collective cognitive dysfunction

But today the country's national narrative of macho victimhood appears to the rest of the world as simply bizarre: evidence of a sort of collective cognitive dysfunction that has gripped Israel's political culture. And the long cultivated persecution mania - "everyone's out to get us" - no longer elicits sympathy. Instead it attracts some very unappetizing comparisons: At a recent international meeting I heard one speaker, by analogy with Helmut Schmidt's famous dismissal of the Soviet Union as "Upper Volta with Missiles," describe Israel as "Serbia with nukes."
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. and still....let israel be destroyed.....
Before 1967 the State of Israel may have been tiny and embattled, but it was not typically hated

and when the war began, it was generally assumed that israel would not survive (anybody try to stop it?):....glad to hear we were "so loved"


and of course the comparison to the serbs (with their massacres) also explains alot: demonazation of the jews/israelis

___________

nothings changed for 2,000 years
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Try, Reading. The. Entire. Article...
Edited on Thu May-04-06 05:10 AM by Violet_Crumble
I'm so sick and tired of the nonstop pity party. That was a really great article and I think you should read the entire thing carefully...

btw, this comment: 'and when the war began, it was generally assumed that israel would not survive'. Where was this generally assumed? Because the reality was that Israel was militarily powerful and there was little likelihood that Israel was going to be beaten...



Violet...
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. Israel would not have started the war if it thought it was going to lose.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. No kidding.
That was one of the most truly pro-Israel articles I have read, in that it recommended truly positive steps (like working for better diplomatic relations with other countries) while realistically evaluating the situation.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. Popularity isn't all it's cracked up to be
I keep seeing these kinds of remarks, of how Israel was loved and then turned the left against it. Well, all that love didn't prevent terrorist attacks against Israel. More to the point, it didn't condemn them either. Nor did it prevent Israel being condemned for trying to stop said terrorism.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Love didn't prevent the occupation either...
And if Israel didn't violate international law on a regular basis when trying to stop said terrorism, there wouldn't be a problem...

Violet...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. those farmers again?
the ones that kept attacking israeli pre 67.....that wasnt terrorism?...the jordanians sniping from the old city?...just "farmers in disguise?

what intl law was israeli violating then?...


the "all was wonderful" pre 67 is quite the fantasy...especially since the goal of the arab armies of 67 was the wiping israel off the map....and it seems that the goal has not changed either.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. What farmers??
I'll spell out what I was saying very clearly for you pelsar. Israel has every right to defend itself against terrorism, but just like every other state it does not have the right to violate international law in doing so. Are you going to dispute that Israel violates international law? I hope not. Especially as some of the reasons for violating international law have zero to do with fighting terrorism and everything to do with occupying the West Bank...

btw, I didn't say "all was wonderful" pre 67, so please don't attribute something to me that I never said. What I will say is that any claims that Arab states currently want to wipe Israel off the map is total fantasy stuff, especially considering two of Israel's neigbhours have peace treaties with Israel...

Violet...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. just a thought....
if there wasnt a 67 war.....and the palestenains remained under the thumb of the jordanians and egyptians....they would probably be there today without any chance of their own independance...

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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. There's a larger point here, and Israel needs to pay attention to it.
That has to do with the erosion of the aura of victimization and the loss of legitimacy in the eyes of Americans. That loss of sympathy is real and it has been earned despite the best palliative efforts of the many apologists for Israel in the U.S. mass media, who will seemingly excuse anything and everything. That which it can't excuse, it tries to ignore.

The cause of this loss of legitimacy are Israeli in origin. It is an internal Israeli problem, and only Israeli can solve it. If you don't, the U.S. will write Israel off as a loss, and the game will then be entirely lost.

While there's still a chance to turn this around, I suggest that Israel consider the following appraisal by Tony Judt, and act accordingly:

From one perspective Israel's future is bleak. Not for the first time, a Jewish state has found itself on the vulnerable periphery of someone else's empire: overconfident in its own righteousness, willfully blind to the danger that its indulgent excesses might ultimately provoke its imperial mentor to the point of irritation and beyond, and heedless of its own failure to make any other friends. To be sure, the modern Israeli state has big weapons - very big weapons. But can it do with them except make more enemies? However, modern Israel also has options. Precisely because the country is an object of such universal mistrust and resentment - because people expect so little from Israel today - a truly statesmanlike shift in its policies (dismantling of major settlements, opening unconditional negotiations with Palestinians, calling Hamas' bluff by offering the movement's leaders something serious in return for recognition of Israel and a cease-fire) could have disproportionately beneficial effects.

But such a radical realignment of Israeli strategy would entail a difficult reappraisal of every cliche and illusion under which the country and its political elite have nestled for most of their life. It would entail acknowledging that Israel no longer has any special claim upon international sympathy or indulgence; that the United States won't always be there; that weapons and walls can no more preserve Israel forever than they preserved the German Democratic Republic or white South Africa; that colonies are always doomed unless you are willing to expel or exterminate the indigenous population. Other countries and their leaders have understood this and managed comparable realignments: Charles De Gaulle realized that France's settlement in Algeria, which was far older and better established than Israel's West Bank colonies, was a military and moral disaster for his country. In an exercise of outstanding political courage, he acted upon that insight and withdrew. But when De Gaulle came to that realization he was a mature statesman, nearly 70 years old. Israel cannot afford to wait that long. At the age of 58 the time has come for it to grow up.






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ShalachEtAmi Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. If you ever been to the country ,its patently obvious not ALL settlements
can be dismantled.If you eve been to Maale Adumim or Ariel (which is a city) its obvious that the dream of `evacuating` these two for starters is not possible...

They will dismantle as many settlements `as possible` or most but reality needs to be faced its not going to ba ALL..and its not going to be ALL of East Jerusalem either..maybe a few suburbs...but Just as the Jews have to temper down their unrealistic dreams of ALL of `greater Israel` so do the Palestinians have to temper down their unrealistic expectations too...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. religion....
that whole is faith based....religion...cultish...it might as been written by an islamic fanatic, jewish extremist or christian fundementalist


unconditional negotiations with Palestinians, calling Hamas' bluff by offering the movement's leaders something serious in return for recognition of Israel and a cease-fire

there is not a single shred of evidence that Hamas is bluffing....that negotiations with the palestenains will be done in good faith by the palestenians....that the next palestenian govt would even follow through on any agreement, ....that islamic jihad will cease to exist as an organization...


the writer and his evidence is no better than the preacher, rabbi, imman disecting their holy books and coming to conclusions based intepretions.....hocus pocus...and wheres the kool aid...
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ShalachEtAmi Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. There doesn`t seem to be that `loss of sympathy` amongst Americans...
`America takes side of Israel`

`A GALLUP POLL released last month puts American support for Israel at near-record levels. When asked for their views on the Middle East, 59 percent of Americans say they sympathize with the Israelis, while just 15 percent favor the Palestinians. Pro-Israel sentiment rises with increased knowledge -- 66 percent of those who follow international affairs ''very closely" support Israel, compared with 52 percent of those who don't pay close attention to foreign news.`



http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/03/26/america_takes_side_of_israel/




`American support for Israel at near-record levels`...RECORD LEVELS (2006)
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. polls dont fit in...(the article)
Edited on Thu May-04-06 10:48 AM by pelsar
when the "reasoning is based on faith"....i.e. fanatical religious beliefs. ...and thats the bottom line of the article. Its a new religion....facts, evidence and doubt never enters in the picture.

ask someone who believes in that religion, what happens if israel does pull back to 67 (almost) and kassams and mortors start raining down on israeli jersusalem, what shall israel do?...silence will be the reply, because its simply incomprehensable......hence the religious like belief in the "67 borders.

mention gaza today, n. israel.....as borders that israel has pulled back to......no reply or at best...an "i dont know"...either way the belief is not shaken.
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ShalachEtAmi Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I know but it was claimed that amongst American`s theres been...
``That has to do with the erosion of the aura of victimization and the loss of legitimacy in the eyes of Americans.``

The poll I posted shows theres been no such thing and that in fact support for Israel amongst Americans in 2006 is at RECORD HIGH`s...
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ShalachEtAmi Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Ahh OK I get what your saying, I do not think its a`` NEW`` RELIGION..
Edited on Thu May-04-06 11:18 AM by ShalachEtAmi
Just modified and evolving over centuries...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. thats nice ...but
Edited on Thu May-04-06 10:42 AM by pelsar
Israel has every right to defend itself against terrorism,...i'm afraid the "how to do it" gets a bit sticky doesnt it?.....if you would to try to be honest you will discover that fighting terrorism which is based on civilian shields as a means is impossible to fight without some form of collective punishment or summary execution....hence any means used to fight will be illegal. Fighting terrorism, just to clarify it, means more than killing the peons who do that attacking, but the planners as well, the designers, the developers and the leaders, the peons are a "limitless resource" the managers are not.

an i understand that iran, a persian country, isnt included in the "wipe israel off the map" bunch...and i cant tell if hes just "kidding around or not"....
how can you tell?
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ShalachEtAmi Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. Fanciful? When a Persian Muslim leader says the aim of his State...
Is to wipe Israel off the map..I think we should believe what he says..When The Hamas charter says there will be no Jews ruling over Tel Aviv or Haifa or Beer Sheva or Eilat ,....or.....When one of many Palestinian terrorist groups announces to the world its time to attack Jews outside of Israel, in other countries,.......... I think we should believe what they say..


........CURRENTLY....



`fantasy stuff`? More like a nightmare.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
29. is this in violation?
Israel has every right to defend itself against terrorism, but just like every other state it does not have the right to violate international law in doing so

the entebbe operation to save the hostages must have violated tens of intl laws......so i assume that you would deem the entebbe operation as "illegal' and that it shouldnt have been done?
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. you're absolutely right
we should have ignored that plane in Entebbe; surely Idi Amin would find it in the goodness of his heart to see to it they remained unharmed...
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Or, for a more clear-cut example, Osirak n/t
Edited on Thu May-04-06 05:55 PM by eyl
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I'm sure Ahmed Bouchiki is in full agreement
right there with Aziza Jubran and Rahma Hindi.

Such things are not black and white, sometimes vengeance can be equally as bad as what it ostensibly is trying to cure.

L-
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Those operations weren't really
simple vengeance, but that's neither here nor there. I wasn't maintaining that Israel is always blameless; but rather, that not all international condemnation is.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. It should also be noted
Edited on Thu May-04-06 04:44 PM by eyl
that whether Israel is still popular or not with Judt's crowd, we're actually in a much better position diplomaticaly now than we were then.

The Arab boycott is almost completely powerless, we have extensive trade and academic relations with Europe, defensive relations with Turkey, peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan (however much room for improvement our relations with those countries have, it's still better than pre-67), back channel contacts with many of the countries which are publicly our enemies (for instance), and so on.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
20. tony judt
Tony Judt is a scholar who was until recently best known for his writings on European history. But then, in a 2,900-word essay in the October 23 edition of The New York Review of Books, Judt dropped the intellectual equivalent of a nuclear bomb on Zionism, calling for the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state.
....
"Even if I felt threatened as a Jew," Judt told the Forward, "I would never want to go to Israel."

"The depressing truth," Judt wrote, "is that Israel today is bad for the Jews."

Judt seemed remarkably unperturbed by the deeply critical response to his essay from American Jews, a reflection that appears to stem in part from his rather dim opinion of the Jewish community. "It is such an insecure community," Judt said, "so desperate to find some basis for its own identity."

http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.12.26/news5.html
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ShalachEtAmi Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. "Even if I felt threatened as a Jew,".. Israel is one of the major reasons
That Jews in many countries do not feel threatened.One of the Jewish States reasons for being.
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