Arafat Is to be murdered, not deported.

[Tinoire]

The words of the Israeli government's decision are:
"Arafat is to be discarded of".
Sharon knows that deported, Arafat will as powerful as imprisoned.
He has no intention of letting this happen.
The Israeli government spoke oopenly of a
"Short period of chaos in the wake of Arafat's disappearence"
followed, as they foolishely hope, by the rising of a moderate Palestinian leader
who will accept the Israeli terms of surrender.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Abu-Mazen's Resignation is a Victory for Sharon
Arafat's Life is in Immediate Danger!

The resignation of Abu-Mazen (Mahmud Abbas) is a great victory for Ariel Sharon.
From the beginning, Sharon intended to topple Abu-Mazen.
It was obvious that President Bush's has taken a liking to this Palestinian leader,
and this endangered Sharon's exclusive status in the White House.
Therefore it was Sharon's aim to bring about the political elimination of Abu-Mazen in a way calculated to put the blame on Yasser Arafat.

Thus Sharon hoped to kill two birds with one stone:
safeguard his exclusive influence on Bush and prepare the way for the elimination of Arafat.

Abu-Mazen's position has become impossible.
He got nothing at all from Sharon and Bush, except the release of a bunch of Palestinian criminals and an increase of the number of
Apart from that, not one of the "painful concessions" promised by Sharon has been delivered. On the contrary: the "targeted eliminations" have been accelerated, as well as the building of the Wall and the enlargement of the settlement.

<snip>

There is an immediate danger that Sharon may exploit the new situation in order to kill Arafat, under the pretext that something happened to him during an operation to deport him abroad. The chief of Army Intelligence, General Amos Gilad, has hinted as much on Israeli TV.

Gush Shalom calls all on peace forces in Israel and abroad to do everything possible to prevent the implementation of this plot, which may cause untold harm to both peoples.

Israel's contribution to Abu Mazen's failure
http://gush-shalom.org/roadmap/index.html">A detailed analysis of Israel's violations of the Road Map

http://gush-shalom.org/english/

Gush Shalom (Translated from Hebrew, the name means "The Peace Bloc")
is the hard core of the Israeli peace movement.

About us: http://gush-shalom.org/english/intro.html

[Brucey]

1. Yes, I think Arafat may be killed. What a deal, huh?

[IndianaGreen]

2. And Sharon will be murdered in retaliation for Arafat's murder

and the killings will go on.

The worst part is that the next terrorist attack on the United States will be justified on the basis of America's complicity on Arafat's murder. We know how little influence Americans have on their own government. If the people had real power, which we don't, there wouldn't be an embargo on Cuba, the troops would already be home from Iraq, and we wouldn't be sending one dime of aid to Israel.

[Resistance]

3. and the United States

the only country with real power to force a negotiated peace settlement - will stand around and do nothing, while Democrats repeat their empty phrases and slogans, just as they are told.

[IndianaGreen]

4. That's because the Democratic Party is not interested in real reforms

The Democrats were as guilty as the Republicans in selling this country the Soviet "boogeyman" that launched the Cold War, and lined the pockets of the military industrial complex. One need to go no further than the despicable role the US played, under President Truman, during the civil war in Greece, and the sort of "friends" we found endearing.

Should we mention how another Democratic President, Jimmy Carter, gave money and aid to the same religious fanatics in Afghanistan that would eventually give the world the likes of the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. This was done because the Soviet "boogeyman" had invaded Afghanistan, never mind that it was at the request of the Marxist government that was fighting off Islamic terrorists.

The Democratic Party is not interested in real reforms. They loath single-payer health insurance because they take money from the health insurance industry just as the Republicans do. They will oppose cutting down the Defense budget to meet real enemies, preferring instead the same big ticket items that the Republicans want.

When it comes to doling out defense dollars, the only difference between the GOP and the Democrats is which corporations and what states end up as the beneficiaries. They are both whores working for competing pimps!

[drdon326]

5. Ohhhhh...You dont like the Democratic Party.

you made that pretty clear.

[IndianaGreen]

6. I don't like liars with a "D" after their name

as the only thing that differentiates them from the GOP.

The Democrats will never allow a Kucinich to win the nomination, no matter what the popular vote is.

On edit:

There are several rightwing Republicans that post in DU, but they get away with it by wrapping themselves in Israel's flag while they spout the same filth that Tom Delay spews about the I/P conflict.

[drdon326]

8. I got one better...

There are several jihadofascists that post in DU, but they get away with it by wrapping themselves in anti-zionism while they spout the same filth that Pat Buchanan spews about the I/P conflict.....

and then claim they would EVEN consider moving to israel.

[rini]

9. Exactly!

[IndianaGreen]

11. Keep waiving the American flag

and don't ask embarrasing questions about Iraq, number of wounded, WMD, or the cost to the American taxpayer of keeping afloat a renegade country that flaunts international law and disregards human rights.

[drdon326]

13. Your attention please....THREADJACKING ALERT IN EFFECT.

.

[Darranar]

14. Threadjacking with good points...

Not too bad.

Anyway, you were threadjacking, too.

[drdon326]

15. Darranar.....ah...now defending INDY....

You're a good friend.

[Darranar]

16. Speaking of threadjacking...

btw, I don't get your post.

[Forkboy]

84. Imagine defending someone who actually cares about peace

the alternative would be supporting Don...

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

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[IndianaGreen]

92. Only if Tom Friedman writes about it

Thankfully, Friedman has been catching hell from DUers upstairs for the swill that passes for his writing.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

12. Not one...

of the posters who post here are jihadofascists, contrary to your completeely misplaced and ridiculous accusations, drdon.

As for supporters of Israel in denial, though...

[Equinox]

39. Jihadofascist?

That's a new one. Whatever happened to just being anti-semitic?

[Jim Sagle]

48. It's against DU rules to say that. So he didn't say that.

[Darranar]

49. If he's allowed to say...

that there are some posters who are "jihadofascist" (okay...) then he should be allowed to say that there are some posters who are anti-semitic - if he avoids name-calling.

[lynx rufus]

17. I lived in Israel

when you live there you become anti-zionism pretty damn fast.
Please stop talking baby talk.

[Darranar]

18. Welcome to DU and I/P, lynx rufus!

:toast: :hi:

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. Anti-zionist?

Funny, that means you don't believe Israel has a right to exist as a homeland for Jews. Is that what you mean?

[IndianaGreen]

31. Israel's right to exist does not extend to the West Bank and Gaza

or to East Jerusalem. Furthermore, Palestinians have as much right to have their own state, as Israelis have to have theirs.

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. Those areas

What territory Israel cedes to a theoretical state is the result of negotiation. Since no Palestinian leadership is willing to negotiate the end to terror, that negotiation is also far off.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jos]

65. Nothing prevents Israel from pulling out now

and turning the land over to an international force until a final agreement is reached.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. Except that would be stupid

What do they gain by doing so? They give up everything and gain nothing, not peace, not an agreement, just nada.

Besides, how much and what areas they give up need to be negotiated. If you think Israel will give up Jerusalem, for instance, you are wrong.

[jos]

69. Stupid?

Is its security increased by continuing to occupying the west bank? No. Having to put troops there, plus dealing with suicide bombers in no way has increased its security. It is only the radical Zionist ideology of a "greater Israel" that keeps them there. The occupation is immoral and the settlements are illegal.

And does continuing the occupationg of Arab East Jerusalem increase Israel's security? No. For any deal to be reached, the Palestinians will have to be given East Jerusalem.

Occupying someone else land should not be a bargaining chip. That is the whole problem with Israel's position.

[Gimel]

83. The Wall

Is the alternative. It will eliminate the necessity of Israeli troops having to search and destroy the terrorists at their base. It will enable Israel to have a sealed border, and allow troop withdrawal.

[Equinox]

107. The only wall that we should be cheering on or talking about....

is the album by Pink Floyd....all other walls suck.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

114. The best wall.

Would be one made up of several hundred thousand international troops, well and fully equipped to make sure that the IDF stays on it's side of the Green Line.

The same group should be employed in the expedited removal of ALL settlements.
High ranking representatives of the same group should also begin trials based on the numerous Israeli violations of UN resolutions.

And a large contingent of said group should be tasked with the protection of the Palestinian people, at least until such time as all of those who acted in concert with Ariel Sharon are jailed for crimes against humanity.

[Gimel]

96. I think he means the "Sach Noot"

That is the Jewish Agency in Israel. It can be tough getting any help or response from the office workers, after waiting in line for 6 hours a day for three weeks (just a slight exageration).

Then there's the tendency to complain about the newest arrivals. The new immigrants who need everything and know nothing. Not easy. But today it's done with more tolerance. Back in 1947, it was really a bitch.


Welcome aboard the DU wagon, Lynx Rufus.

[The Stranger]

66. And there are several Jewish Supremacists that post in DU, but they

get away with it by wrapping themselves in anti-terrorism and "security" while they spout the same filth that Ariel Sharon spews about the I/P conflict . . .

and then claim they would EVEN consider moving to Israel, if they are not there already . . .

[rini]

10. Tom Delay?

I beg your pardon, no one, even the Jihadism group can come close to him in double dealing, double talking, behind the back stabbing; wait a minute, I was wrong, the Jihadism group comes pretty durn close.

[Equinox]

40. Jihadism Group?

lmao...this is bordering on ridiculous...no wait...it's way past ridiculous...it's downright Jihadistic!

[Equinox]

42. Superjihadisiticexpialadocious.

[IndianaGreen]

7. The Greek Civil War was not what you were taught in school, drdon

The Truman Doctrine and the Greek Civil War
excerpted from the book
Intervention and Revolution: The United States in the Third World
by Richard J. Barnet
World Publishing, 1968, paperback edition

p97
In the name of the Truman Doctrine the United States supplied the military and economic power to enable the Greek monarchy to defeat an army of communist-led insurgents in 1947-49 and won a victory which has become a model for U.S. relations toward civil wars and insurgencies. Almost twenty years later the President of the United States was defending his intervention in Vietnam by pointing to his predecessor's success in Greece. The American experience in Greece not only set the pattern for subsequent interventions in internal wars but also suggested the criteria for assessing the success or failure of counterinsurgency operations. Greece was the first major police task which the United States took on in the postwar world. One of the most important consequences of the American involvement in Greece in the 1940'S was the development of new bureaucracies specializing in military assistance, police administration, and economic aid, committed to an analysis of revolution and a set of responses for dealing with it that would be applied to many different conflicts in the next twenty years.

p101
When President Truman announced the decision to help the Greek monarchy win the civil war, he stressed that the commitment was prompted by the "terrorist activities of several thousand armed men, led by communists.'' The United States was to use its power to put down violence. But, clearly, violence itself was not the issue, for throughout 1946, according to correspondents of the London Times and other U.S. and British papers, the Greek government itself had been carrying out mass arrests, tortures, beatings, and other retaliation against those who had been on the wrong side of the earlier civil war that ended in January, 1945. The foreign minister had resigned in early 1946, charging "terrorism by state organs." In Greece, as elsewhere, the violence of constituted authorities, however oppressive their rule, was judged by one criterion and the violence of insurgents by another. President Truman alluded to the corruption and brutality of the Greek government by conceding that it was "not perfect." But while the fascist character of the government genuinely bothered some members of the U.S. government, most National-Security Managers shared the judgment of former Secretary of State James Byrnes: "We did not have to decide that the Turkish Government and the Greek Monarchy were outstanding examples of free and democratic governments."

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Insurgency_Revolution/Truman%20Doc_GreekCW_IAR.html

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Herschel]

21. Your disdain for the Democratic party

is both odd and not compatable with the stated aspirations of this forum.

[Darranar]

22. Actually...

This is a message board for progressives. NO ONE can claim that IndianaGreen is anything but a progressive.

[rini]

33. Eugenics

was also a progressive idea. The term in and of itself does not equal good.

[Gimel]

52. Old time commies

are not progressive. They are reactionary anti-progressive.

[Herschel]

23. There are comments

Arafat is the leader of the Palestinians whether or not he is exiled. Consider the situation will be better long term without the weasel.

[Darranar]

25. Actually, no...

if he is killed or exiled, the peace process will be knocked out for another decade or so. He must be removed legitimantly, and not by use of Israeli force.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

113. The only weasel I see...

Is the one called Sharon.
And boy is time for that one to be caged.

[rini]

34. Sadly

the disdain shown for America is a close second. And yes to those of you who snicker, I proudly wave the flag.

[Equinox]

43. I'll proudly burn it to defend democracy.

[Herschel]

20. Please!

You say the next terrorist attack on America will be justified if this terrorist is eliminated? This is a new low. Oh, my.

[Darranar]

24. I think he meant...

that the next terrorist attack will be justified by extremists as retaliation for the US's complicancy in the murder of Arafat.

btw, I have yet to see any real evidence that Arafat is currently a terrorist.

[rini]

100. ostriches

put their heads in the sand, get what is sticking up? If you can't see the waesle of Ramalah is a terrorist, guard your eggs.

[Darranar]

103. Hmm...

I know! I'll think up someone who has challenged the US's interests and call him a terrorist. I won't show any evidence, because i don't have any, but I'll just say it and say it and say it until I convince someone.

Got it! Chirac is a terrorist!

[Equinox]

111. Yes, Darranar, I think I will too!

I'm going to pick somone else. Karl Rove is a terrorist. Expel him!

[newyorican]

26. No Hersch

The all-time low was you claiming that Arabs smell different. Oh my.

[Forkboy]

85. heh

no shit.

[Gimel]

101. Really

I think that comment was an imitation. That is a sarcasm about what people say about others. He meant the opposite. So typical to take comments out of context.

[Forkboy]

104. I'm sure it was just sarcasm

:eyes:

[newyorican]

105. Keep repeating that...some idiot is bound to believe it...

The rest of us can simply read the record:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=8819

The use of smell as an identifacation tool is nothing new. Race and ethnicity based odor is legitimate and has been utilized many times. - Herschel

Various factors such as hygiene practices, body glands, diet, and application of scented materials may be common in races, producing a particular scent. Hence, Arabs may well be capable of smelling their own. - Herschel

Q: Do Arabs stink? - newyorican

A: Those are your words, Not mine. I will leave it at that. - Herschel

Behind these comments, (not an "imitation" whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean) Herschel wins the honorary lifetime title of Sir Nose d'Voidofunk.

Now...you were saying??

[Equinox]

106. Becareful,

Someone might accuse of keeping "files" on them.

[Forkboy]

108. Who needs to keep files

these people's words are right here on DU for the world to see...and get sick over.

[Equinox]

112. Who's getting sick?

These people remain to continue making their remarks.

:shrug:

[Forkboy]

119. I tried

some people support that type of talk here and dont like that I stood up to it...go figure :shrug:

[beanball]

50. Terrorist

which one Sharon or Bush?

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. You are wrong

People in America wildly support Israel. So, the people DO have the power. I'm not sure you are right about Iraq either. And, fortunately, our government (both sides of the aisle) continues to embargo the dictator in Cuba.

[Darranar]

29. FORTUNATELY???

:puke::puke::puke::puke:

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Yep

I don't support dictators, even ones approved by Chomsky.

[Darranar]

120. Yeah, like it harms him...

I didn't know that Castro was the only inhabitant of Cuba.

[Jackie97]

19. Yeah, kill Arafat, and make a martyr out of him....

I think that's a stupid idea. He'll have more power as a martyr.

[drdon326]

30. "Yeah, kill Arafat, and make a martyr out of him...."

Stop it , Jackie......i'm getting aroused.

[Tinoire]

38. Of course you're getting aroused

Thanks for revealing to the world how foolish you are and totally uncaring about the loss of both Israeli and Palestinian lives should Arafat be harmed.

Or are you just itching for all hell to break loose down there thinking that the mighty house-bull-dozing, kid-shooting IDF will expel the Palestinians to Jordan once and for all?

Tsk, tsk, thank God for the Israeli and Jewish Left who don't get sexually aroused at the thought of Arafat's head on a platter and realize what blood-shed that would unleash.

[drdon326]

41. LOL

The only thing you know about me is I dont pray
at the alter of your "gush shalom".

Spare me your rightous indignation.

[Tinoire]

45. No- What I do know about you

are all the posts you've made right here in I/P and that the thought of Arafat being killed "arouses" you.

You've left quite a track.

[drdon326]

46. Tinoire.....

get a sense of humor.

[Tinoire]

47. Naw

I'm saving that for the day I hear that for the day Palestinians have

a.
gotten back every bit of land beyond the Green Line and have full sovereignity over their own independent state with no Israeli meddling into their affairs

or

b.
a one-state solution is implemented where Palestinians have equal rights and representation so that I can personally witness Democracy in Israel.

Until then, you'll have to forgive me if I see no humor in the statement that you are aroused at the thought of Arafat being killed as the world watches in horror and prays that someone will reign in Sharon and that nasty right-wing Likud.

[drdon326]

51. Yawn.....

then you will never laugh.....cause neither one of
those 2 things will ever happen.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. But I remember you saying...

..that you supported the two-state solution. Now yr acting like it's a silly little dream. The reason I support the two-state solution is because I think it does have some chance of becoming reality. Why would you tell people you support something when you now turn around and act like that solution is some kind of fantasy joke that will never happen?

Violet...

[StandWatie]

68. and from such an ardent anti-fascist

apparently rule by Muslims over others is Islamofascism but it's something to be admired when practiced by Jews.

[Jackie97]

73. The two state solution wasn't being talked about.

He was objecting to the ideas of the Palestinians either getting all of their land and complete sovereignty of it back or having equal rights with the Isarelis in one state. Either way, it was one state that he was objecting to.

[StandWatie]

74. so he is in favor of a Palestinian Serf population

That maybe has to take out their own trash and cook their own meals.

[drdon326]

77. I LOVE IT.

WHAT I objected to was this:

"gotten back every bit of land beyond the Green Line and have full sovereignity over their own independent state with no Israeli meddling into their affairs"

i still favor a 2 state solution but "not every bit of land beyond the green line"
i believe israel needs safe ond secure borders and baraks
offer of 95% seemed more than fair.

one state solution aint gonna happen.

[Darranar]

78. About Barak's offer...

http://www.fair.org/extra/0207/generous.html">Barak's oh so very generous offer

[drdon326]

80. I guess Barak was....

one of your hated "extremists" also, huh???

Make it easy for all of us who are not nearly as
smart as you are, what israelis leaders are NOT
"EXTEMISTS" in your perspective??

We're all holding our collective breath.

[Darranar]

81. Extremist?

No, I wouldn't call him that. Under the influence of the extremists? Certainly.

As for Israeli prime ministers who weren't under the influence of the extremists... er, um... I guess they're weren't any, though Rabin came close.

[Jackie97]

82. Ninety-five percent....

Ninety-five percent of a little part of a lot of what used to be theirs is more than fair?

[Violet_Crumble]

97. Yes, it was...

This is what he was objecting to:

"a.
gotten back every bit of land beyond the Green Line and have full sovereignity over their own independent state with no Israeli meddling into their affairs."

So it was a two-state solution he was objecting to...

Violet...

[Jackie97]

115. You're right.

I just read it a hell of a lot closer. Sorry about that. It appears to be the "beyond the Green line" part that he's objecting for a separate Palestinian state; not the idea of a Palestinian state itself. Give him time though.

[Jackie97]

72. Palestine will be free.

I don't see the Palestinians getting all of their land back with complete control, but they will be free. They will either have equal rights in the "Democratic" state of Israel or they will get their own state. Either way, they will be free.

[tinnypriv]

36. I agree, but the head of Israeli intelligence thinks otherwise:

"Expelling will create problems, killing Arafat will only result in riots for a few weeks"

(Avi Dichter)

:eyes:

[durutti]

32. Transfer/My Theory

This is my theory:

Sharon and company want to see the Territories explode. Why? Because it will justify transfer (and perhaps the expulsion of Arab Israelis).

[Resistance]

35. capture of all of Palestine

has always been the goal. Sharon doesn't care how it is accomplished - terror, violence, instigating a civil war. Any means necessary.

[Equinox]

44. Well, resistence...claim the whole of the WB...is legitimate...

All you have to do is say two things:

1) It was done in defense.

2) They were "terrorists."

Simple really.

[Gimel]

53. An option

Ehud Olmert is a former Mayor of Jerusalem, who sometimes speaks without authority. As a deputy PM, although not acting in that capacity, he gave a radio interview. Within the context of the interview, he stated that killing Arafat was an option. Without seeing a transcript of the interview, we don't know how the statement came about. The entire world seems to have over-reacted to this.

The debate in the Knesset is about expelling him, not killing him. If he were again in exile, would the situation be improved? That is the question. Clearly he is impeding the Peace Process. Israel will not implement the steps of the Road Map, (it's obligations on the Gush Shalom site are without giving the context of the entire Road Map) until the terrorist organizations are totally dismantled. One step at a time is needed to progress. Not only did GS repeat an obligation twice (8 and 10) they have failed to mention the PA obligations, the dismantling of the terrorist organizations is an initial step. Without the completion of step one, no further steps on a journey can be taken.

The finger-pointing at Israel has become a habit, and one that serves their reputation. This time they are wrong.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Wrong...

That statement came about because the Israeli Defence Minister raised killing Arafat as an option. Anyway, it's quite clear that in regards to Arafat 'expel' means the same thing as Arafat wouldn't go without a fight....

Uh, if you want to start talking about not implementing the Road Map, you might want to take a look over it and notice how Israel didn't meet it's obligations under it. It takes two to tango and trying to pretend that Israel is faultless in regards to implementing the road map is really quite silly when all the facts are against you...

Violet...

[tinnypriv]

56. An interesting aside

D'you know that the State Department spokesman apparently hasn't even read the Roadmap?

Hard for Israel to know what it's obligations are when the United States doesn't have the first clue... :crazy:

[Violet_Crumble]

59. I didn't know that...

But it comes as no surprise to find that out....

Violet...

[Gimel]

61. An option

It has been an obvious option for more than 20 years.

Look at my post on the thread about the Road Map. The first stage includes totally dismantling the terrorist organizations. That doesn't mean staging a hudna and bystepping the whole process.

The first paragraph of the "Road Map is very clear. Please review the contents:

performance-based and goal-driven roadmap, with clear phases, timelines, target dates, and benchmarks aiming at progress through reciprocal steps by the two parties in the political, security, economic, humanitarian, and institution-building fields, under the auspices of the Quartet.

The word reciprocal means that if one side moves forward, the other side can reciprocate.

when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror and willing and able to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty, and through Israel’s readiness to do what is necessary for a democratic Palestinian state to be established, and a clear, unambiguous acceptance by both parties of the goal of a negotiated settlement as described below.
http://www.un.org/media/main/roadmap122002.html

the very first condition has not been met by the Palestinian side. No Road Map implementation.

In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel.

http://www.un.org/media/main/roadmap122002.html

A conditional, temporary hudna is not in the map. Israel has taken supportive measures, easing restriction on the Palestinian population. Because Hamas wanted all of their people released from Israeli jails, they resumed violent attacks.

[tinnypriv]

62. I'll let the Financial Times do the talking

Can't get more mainstream than them:

..

"The Palestinian Authority cannot risk a civil war by cracking down on extremists without winning some credit from its own constituency for Israel starting to pull back from occupied Palestinian land. The road map is probably dead. If so, Israeli leaders are as much to blame as Mr Arafat, because of their failure to produce any immediate gains for the Palestinians."

...

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059479802617

[Violet_Crumble]

63. I think yr wrong on that, Gimel...

See those dot points? There's a very good reasons they're not numbered lists, and why they're not included as separate phases. Look at the very beginning of the document. Right there in black and white it says: "In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel. Yep. Attacking militants and causing the deaths of innocent civilians is ever so supportive, isn't it?? And this is a big one that Israel didn't seem to notice: "Israel also freezes all settlement activity, consistent with the Mitchell report.

I'm not sure why you insist on pretending that Israel was ever interested in implementing the road-map....

Violet...

[Gimel]

70. Was done

Settlement activity was stopped. With all the Hamas terror activity no one seems to have noticed.

The situation since the Road Map was formally initiated on June 4, has gone through several false starts. No one seems to notice. Hamas wants Israel to fulfill their demands before they lay down their bomb belts. The Hamas organization is built for human destruction, both of young Palestinians (who are victims) and Israeli citizens who are murdered wholesale by the brain-washed Palestinian youth.

What a waste of humanity. Yet, you have never objected or demanded their dismantlement. This is the very first step of the Road Map. Israel has fulfilled the stagged implementation of releasing prisoners, only to get more terror attacks.

[tinnypriv]

71. Settlement activity wasn't stopped

I mean, that is just a simple fact.

Do you want the construction figures from the Israeli government? :eyes:

[Gimel]

93. Reciprocal steps

Sorry, but Israel is not obliged to follow up when terror attacks have continued. Do you want the death figures for the latest three suicide attacks?

[Gimel]

94. You always think I'm wrong, VC

Do you think that Israel should fulfill every step when the PA hasn't begun step "dot" one? The PA, including Abbas, refused to dismantle terrorist activity. He even said as much. Look at the news reports. It's not hard to find them. Israeli forces undertook to attack terrorist because the PA was not. This isn't something that can be put off without endangering life.

On edit: a further point. If the PA and select which "dots" it wants to implement and when, so can Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

98. Is that so?

That's strange coming not long after a thread where I openly totally agreed with you on something. But yr wrong on so much about this. You claimed that settlement activity was stopped. It wasn't. You claim the onus in any steps towards peace is totally with the Palestinians and it's okay for Israel to launch attacks and deliberately provoke more violence. Yr wrong on that too....

I'm quite aware that yr very narrow definition of dismantling groups like Hamas involves bombing and killing, and any peaceful attempts to dismantle those groups aren't considered to be attempts, but exactly how long did Israel give Abbas before they got in there with their kicker boots killing more Palestinian civilians? Also, while you claim that the use of brute force saves endangered lives, what about the innocent Palestinian lives that use of brute force endangered?

About yr edit: It's not a matter of either side picking what dot points they choose to implement. They were supposed to carry them all out. What's so hard to understand about a simple document like that one was?

Violet...

[Resistance]

64. which is exactly why

Sharon instigates and provokes and inflames the situation - to ensure that as long as Palestinian attacks continue, Israel will have justification to steal more land that doesn't belong to Israel. Of course, this is all entirely justified to the religious fundamentalists.

Again, the only difference between a Labour and a Likud gov't is on how best to steal the rest of the Occupied Territories and get Palestinians out of there.

[Gimel]

95. Arafat doesn't provoke?

Listen to two minutes of a translated speech (if you can find it).

[bemildred]

99. Dismantle

http://www.democraticunderground.org/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=4537&mesg_id=4537
(Edited slightly)

41. The "road map" uses the word dismantle twice.

I checked it on both Jewish and Palestinian propaganda sites
to be sure. Both are in the Phase one section. Notice the
bold language.

Security:


* Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus begins
sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those
engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure.
This includes commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and consolidation
of security authority, free of association with terror and corruption.


Settlements:


* GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001.

* Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity
(including natural growth of settlements).

Full text:
palestinemonitor
us-israel

[Gimel]

102. good work

but there's a lot more that needs to be done. Where, for insatnce in the Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus I'll tell you: Arafat just destroyed it.

You can always check on the UN site for an error-free copy:

http://www.un.org/media/main/roadmap122002.html

[bemildred]

110. There is a good deal that was not done on either side.

I was simply addressing the constant whining I see here
about the PNAs failure to dismantle the terrorist networks
first, as they supposedly committed to by accepting the road
map, which claim is horseshit. They were supposed to begin,
and the GOI was supposed to IMMEDIATELY do certain things,
and it did not, nor did it ever intend to.

[Jackie97]

116. Even so.

Exiling Arafat will also bring outrage in the "Arab world" because it's telling the Palestinians who they can and can't have as a leader. Telling the people who they can and can't have as a leader has become habit for the United States with Israel by their side (Ex. Iraq and the Baath party, Iran and the Shah). Plus, it also seems terrible to allow Sharon to be the prime minister of Israel after what happened in Lebanon. The Palestinians will be like "So, we can't keep our leader, but Israel can keep their terrorist". It will enrage them, and it will lead to even more rebellion and more attacks on Israeli civilians.

Israel keeps insisting on a complete end to the terrorist groups before they'll stop their occupation. The problem is that as long as Israeli occupation persists, there will be lots of support for terrorism. Once occupation stops, support for terrorism will die down for the most part. Most Palestinians probably won't want to destroy Israel once Israel grants them their freedom.

I'm asking myself why I can see this and the Israeli government can't. My theory is that they can see it, but they don't care. My theory is that they just want more land for the taking.

[rini]

75. the true story

http://WWW.IsraelForum.com

The hypocrisy of those opposed to Arafat's removal is truly overwhelming, and indicates that Israel stands absolutely alone in its fight against Islamic terrorism. one would have hoped that after the Arab attack on the U.S. on 9/11, things would have changed. Well, apparently, not so.
At the very same time that Osama bin Ladin is the target of scores of U.S. assassination teams, the State Department's bizarre defense of Arafat and his terrorist regime is all the more striking in its hypocrisy. Apparently, for the Bush administration, there is no negotiating and no option other than the assassination of Islamic terrorists who strike at the U.S. However, the very same Arab mass-murderers who massacre Israelis and Americans located in Israel are to be preserved and protected by the Bush administration.

Bush's personal protection of Arafat is longstanding. When Arafat's troops began to conduct daily massacres of Jews in 2001 and Israel was forced to conduct Operation Defensive Shield, the IDF surrounded Arafat's headquarters, ready to rid the world of the Palestinian leader's curse once and for all. Immediately, though, under Saudi oil extortion, first Colin Powell and then George Bush extracted a promise from Ariel Sharon not to harm Arafat. For this reason alone, Israel was forced to withdraw its tanks and to allow the Palestinians to continue their Jihad against Israeli citizens till this very day.

Instead of prosecuting an all-out war against radical Islam and its murderous global Jihad, America is being forced to kowtow to the very same Saudi oil regime that paid for the 9/11 attack on New York and on the Pentagon.

For example, the Saudis demand that the Bush administration bury 19 pages of a Congressional report proving Saudi government involvement in the 9/11 attack, and Colin Powell rushes to do so. The Saudis then demand that the Bush administration perpetuate the Arab/Israeli conflict by keeping Arafat in control of the situation, and George Bush rushes to do so.

Israeli dependence on American goodwill forces Israel to be led by Colin Powell's commands, which originate directly from the Saudi terror-sponsoring regime.

The bottom line is that despite having the human and financial capital to be a world-class economy, Israel has allowed itself to become a charity case, and a slave to foreign interests. Israel has chosen to live under the illusion that financial aid from America is only available in exchange for Israeli willingness to have its people die so that it can be said that the U.S. has appeased Saudi Arabian demands. It is a fatal mistake on the part of Israel.

And despite threats to the contrary, if Israel were to expel Arafat, the U.S. will continue to stand beside Israel, because that's what allies do. Although, the best solution is not to expel Arafat, but to kill him and as many members of his regime as possible.

[StandWatie]

76. lol..

When Arafat's troops began to conduct daily massacres of Jews in 2001

It takes a serious sort of dullness to take this seriously.

[Jackie97]

117. That's how a lot of people look at it.

I think it's fine to say that Arafat has done daily massacres. I just think it's hypocritical to say that Israel has not done the same.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jackie97]

118. Something that you need to understand.

A lot of people who are opposed to removing Arafat are also opposed to some of these wars that the US has done after September 11'th. Some are even opposed to targeting bin Laden for assassination because they think that he should get a trial first. It's not like Israel is being singled out by a lot of people because they're not. Bush himself is being a hypocrite, but not a lot of the others who oppose removing Arafat.

[Flying_Pig]

109. The Solution: U.N. control of Israel, and Palestine .....

with partition decided by the U.N. Once partition completed, and the state of Palestine is fully functioning, the U.N. would pull out. As a part of the U.N. intervention, Sharon and Arafat would both be tried by a Nuremberg type international court for their crimes.

Realistic? Not at all. Practical? Hell yes.

And as long as a Nuremberg type international court is set up and doing business, I would also suggest that the entire Bush regime, and their allies in PNAC, also be tried for crimes against humanity.

I can dream.....