IDF kills 3 children in Gaza

[Scurrilous]

Air Force attacks Monday group of gunmen near Karni crossing; at least one killed. Shortly thereafter missile aimed at gunmen in Beit Hanun kills three children, aged 6-13, on soccer field. Two Qassams land near Sderot; no injuries reported

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3273607,00.html

<snip>

"Four Palestinians were killed and several others were wounded Monday when the Israeli Air Force attacked gunmen in Beit Hanun in the Karni crossing area.

In Beit Hanun three children, aged 6-13, were killed when an IAF missile struck them as they were playing soccer. However, a Palestinian security source said a Qassam rocket cell may have been operating nearby when the attack took place; three other Palestinians were wounded in the incident.

In a separate incident, at least one Palestinian was killed and four others were wounded in an IAF attack near the Karni crossing in
Gaza. Palestinian sources said an aircraft fired a missile at a group of Palestinians. Shortly thereafter, Palestinian gunmen fired two Qassam rockets toward Israel; the rockets landed in open areas near Sderot, and no injuries or damage were reported.

The IDF reported that the gunmen who were attacked near the Karni crossing planned on firing anti-tank missiles toward army forces. The other cell that was attacked in Bei Hanun planned to fire Qassam rockets toward Israel, officials said."

[bemildred]

1. Again with the ATW.

Somebody ought to be interested in where the ATW came from, what sort they are, but we don't get told.

[Englander]

3. It probably means rpg-7s.

I think that the fact that there isn't that much concern, or artciles about this capability
probably means that they're just old style soviet weaponry.

[bemildred]

39. A reasonable idea, thanks.

Certainly the lack of interest is telling.

[Englander]

2. 8 Palestinians killed in Gaza operation; wounded baby dies

By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff

Eight Palestinians were killed yesterday in Israel Defense Forces offensives in the Gaza Strip.

In addition, Khaled Wahabeh, an 18-month-old baby who was wounded in the IDF's bombing of Khan Yunis last month, died at a Gazan hospital yesterday.

The IDF continues to prepare for a renewed expansion of offensive activity in the Strip as part of Operation Summer Rains.

A Hamas operative was killed before dawn by an Israel Air Force missile attack in the Sajaiyeh neighborhood of Gaza City. The army said he was part of a cell that was hit on its way to launch Qassam rockets. Two Islamic Jihad operatives were killed at noon by missiles while crawling toward the perimeter fence, south of Kissufim Crossing. The army said the pair wanted to plant explosive devices.
Another two attacks occured yesterday evening: the IAF fired missiles at a cell armed with anti-tank rockets west of Karni Crossing, killing one Hamas operative and wounding three other Palestinians.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/737183.html

[Behind the Aegis]

4. and?

By my count 4 were "soldiers," and three were accidentally killed when they decided to approach weapons that cowards had left after firing into Israel. The 4 civilans' deaths are part of an on-going tragedy. Interestingly enough, your article and the OP article paint a different picture of the three killed on the soccer field. Or are those two different incidents?

[Violet_Crumble]

5. The problem with repeating the IDF line without question...

and three were accidentally killed when they decided to approach weapons that cowards had left after firing into Israel.

That's the IDF account of events as detailed in the article, and given that the IDF has a habit of denying any responsibility whenever civilians are killed, I'm wondering why anyone would swallow what the IDF says without question...

[Behind the Aegis]

6. And the PA version is always unbiased and accurate?

Seems the ages have changed. That tends to happen as stories progress. I wonder why anyone swallows the PA's version without hesitation or question? :shrug:

[Violet_Crumble]

7. No, of course it isn't...

And even if I'd ever claimed it was, that's no excuse for blindly believing whatever the IDF says and trying to pass it off as a hard, cold fact as you did in yr post...

[Behind the Aegis]

8. Yeah...sure.

I didn't blindly believe anything, I restated what was posted by a "pro-Palestinian" poster's article and added a comment about the cowards who do this type of shit...you know...hide behind civilians.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. No, you did NOT state that it was the IDF's version of events...

This is what you said: 'By my count 4 were "soldiers," and three were accidentally killed when they decided to approach weapons that cowards had left after firing into Israel.' There was nothing said about it being the IDF's version of events, it was yr account of what you believed happened...

The IDF has a long history of denying any and all responsibility when it comes to the deaths of Palestinian children, and later either having to back down or being proved wrong by groups like Amnesty International. That's why I think anyone who presents what the IDF has to say about incidents such as this as *fact* need to stop and really think hard about believing things such as this so easily when the IDF has been outed for lying before...

[Behind the Aegis]

10. It was based on the article provided by the "PP" poster.

The IDF has a long history of many things, including being proved correct. So what about those ages? What about the fact that "However, a Palestinian security source said a Qassam rocket cell may have been operating nearby when the attack took place;..."

I know what I said. I don't need you to tell me what I said or didn't say.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. You took what the IDF said and presented it as fact...

That you did it is a fact that's not able to be disputed. Whether the person who posted the article is 'pp' whatever that is, has absolutely zero to do with the fact that you tried to present the IDF version as hard, cold fact....

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Whatever...

It is always the same with you. I restate what was written in the article and now I am presenting "the IDF version as hard, cold fact." NO, MS. Crumble, what I did is repeat what was in the article provided! That is not an endorsement of "cold hard facts," but dealing with what was presented in said article.

Since you can't figure it out, "pp" is "pro-Palestinian."

[Violet_Crumble]

17. The problem is you didn't restate what was in either article....

This is what was said in both articles:

'However, a Palestinian security source said a Qassam rocket cell may have been operating nearby when the attack took place'

and

The IDF claims that a few minutes earlier, a Qassam launch from a soccer field was identified, and the troops fired at people in the vicinity of the launchers. Apparently, operatives fired Qassam rockets from launchers that were placed some 300 meters from the soccer field of a college in Beit Hanun and left the scene. For some reason, the youths who were hit had decided to approach the launchers, which is when an IDF missile hit them.'

Rather than restating what the articles had said, you said: 'my count 4 were "soldiers," and three were accidentally killed when they decided to approach weapons that cowards had left after firing into Israel'. Yr statement was presented as a *fact*, and there was no mention in it that the IDF was claiming it, nor that a Palestinian source said a cell may have been operating nearby...

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Yes, you based yr comment on believing the IDF version...

:)

[Behind the Aegis]

24. I based it on the two articles I read.

:crazy:

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Yes, we've already covered that...

Is there some purpose to this? You based yr comment that tried to portray the IDF version of events as *fact* on statements in an article that clearly said it was the IDF version of events. Am I missing something else?

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Yes...

....but I doubt you are willing to see it, IMO.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Then explain away, bta...

I really can't see what else I'm missing, but I've missed stuff before and am willing to have it pointed out if it actually has anything at all to do with what was being discussed :)

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Of course you can't.

But I am not at all surprised. :hi:

[Violet_Crumble]

33. So, are you going to explain it?

Because if yr not, I'm not going to waste my time in this thread anymore....

[Behind the Aegis]

35. .

:hi:

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Okay...

Safe to say I didn't miss anything, as if I had, you'd have been willing to point out what it was...

have a nice night or day or whatever it is over there...

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Instances of the IDF lying about the deaths of children...

Khalil Ibrahim al-Mughrabi. On 7 July 2001 three children were shot by IDF sniper fire as they were flying kites and playing soccer in an open space near the border fence at Rafah. Khalil Ibrahim al-Mughrabi, age11, was killed by a high-velocity bullet in the head. Ibrahim Kamel Abu Sussain, age 10, and 13-year-old Suleiman Turki Abu Rijal were also shot and both sustained serious injuries in the abdomen and in the testicles, respectively. The shots came from an IDF post about 800 metres away, and the boys were in a large, open space. According to testimonies given to Amnesty International by Ibrahim Kamel Abu Sussain and by other children who were present at the time of the incident, there were no disturbances or clashes in the area at that time. The IDF claimed that there had been rioting and throwing of fragmentation grenades in the area at the time, but confidential IDF records showed that this was untrue. On 8 November 2001, the IDF informed the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem that it had decided not to initiate an investigation of the incident because there was no suspicion of criminal behaviour by the soldiers. However, a file was attached to the IDFs response, apparently in error, which contained internal records of the IDFs operational de-briefings and the opinions of the IDF Southern Command Judge Advocate and of the Chief Military Prosecutor. These documents, which have been made public by B'Tselem, show that the IDF, in spite of the evidence, decided not to order a Military Police investigation and cleared the soldiers who killed Khalil al-Mughrabi and injured the two other children, and that in its response to B’Tselem the IDF deliberately presented an incorrect version of the incident.(8)

Seventeen-year-old Hikmat al-Malalha, her mother Nasra and cousin Salmiya were killed on 9 June 2001 when a flechette shell hit their tent in Zeitoun, a Bedouin village just southwest of Gaza City and about 1.5 km from the Israeli settlement of Netzarim. Three other family members were wounded. On 11 June, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said that the killing of the three women should not have happened. IDF officials, who at first had said that troops were returning fire from the area, confirmed the next day that the shelling had been a mistake and said there would be an inquiry. However, on 17 July 2001 the IDF replied to a complaint filed by the PCHR saying that since the incident occurred in a war situation, no complaint could be accepted. Two days later, on 19 July, the Israeli daily Haaretz reported that the Chief Military Prosecutor was to appoint an investigative officer to investigate this case. In January 2002 the Head of the IDF Legal Department told Amnesty International delegates that the case was still under investigation. To date, more than two years after the incident no judicial investigation is known to have been opened and none of the eyewitnesses and survivors of the tank shell attack have ever been contacted by the Israeli authorities to receive their testimonies.

Muhammad Ahmad Lubud (17), Muhammad Abd al-Rahman al-Madhun (15) and Ahmad Muhammad Banat (15) were killed on 30 December 2001 near the Eli Sinai settlement in the northern Gaza Strip. IDF statements initially described them as terrorists intending to place a bomb near a settlement. The IDF later admitted that the boys had not had a bomb but said they did have a bag containing two knives. They were killed by a tank shell containing flechettes fired from some 1200 metres away. The bodies of the three were taken to Israel for an autopsy and only returned after four days. The incident attracted a lot of publicity because of Palestinian claims that the boys had been taken away alive. The Knesset Foreign Affairs and Security Committee asked to see the IDF film of the killings and invited certain human rights organizations to the viewing. The film showed them moving away from the tank when they were hit with flechettes. One of the boys was run over by a tank; this was also shown in the conclusions of the autopsy and was admitted by the Israeli military commander for the Gaza Strip. The Israeli military commander of the Northern Gaza Strip Brigade admitted to the Knesset committee that flechettes had scattered up to 100 metres from the killings.

On 22 November 2001 five boys from the Istal family were killed by a booby trap device as they walked to school in Khan Yunis: six-year-old Akram Abd al-Karim al-Istal; Muhammad Na'im Abd al-Karim al-Istal, age 14; Umar Idris al-Istal, age 13; Anis Idris al-Istal, 11; and Muhammad Salman al-Istal, also 11. Amnesty International delegates visited the site on 1 February 2002. The IDF at first denied responsibility for the explosion but subsequently admitted having placed the device there in the hope that it might detonate against armed Palestinians who sometimes shot during the night from the area. Such a device should never have been placed in such a public location, or at least should have been immediately defused before morning, as this is an area where many people passed, especially children on their way to school.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002

[Behind the Aegis]

13. and?

Did I ever say that they hadn't lied or mislead about certain events?

[Violet_Crumble]

14. So yr admitting the IDF does lie?

Great. A breakthrough at last. Now I suggest that you give accounts by the IDF of events the same level of scepticism as you give to Palestinian versions of events :)

[Behind the Aegis]

16. Does this mean you also believe the PA lies too?

That would indeed be a breakthrough!

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Huh??

Did you not read my very words in this thread and in other threads in this forum???

btw, even if I did hold the rather ridiculous view that the PA are always honest, what the hell does that have to do with you having presented the IDF version of events as *fact* in this thread?

[Behind the Aegis]

20. that is not an answer.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. No, you didn't answer...

I've already stated clearly in this thread and elsewhere that I don't believe the PA is honest and to be believed without question. Then again, the issue in this thread is that yr post presented the IDF version of events as fact and didn't state that it was the IDF version of what had happened...

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Speaking of nuance, or lack of it...

Then why did you ask: 'Does this mean you also believe the PA lies too?' when I'd already replied in an earlier post in this thread asking if I believed the PA were unbiased and to be believed all the time saying 'of course not'??

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Trying to illicit the same response from you, as you were from me.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. But I had already answered the question very clearly earlier...

..and I wasn't the poster in this thread trying to present the accounts of the IDF as fact :)

[Behind the Aegis]

31. Presenting what was written in 2 articles is making it "fact?"

I guess I should rely on opinion and speculation, as that seems to be more respected here.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. You didn't present what was written...

But I've already spelt that out in this post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=132676&mesg_id=132770

Read, read again if needed, but please stop repeating the same thing over and over again as though you haven't seen it before...

[Behind the Aegis]

36. ...it doesn't seem to sink in....thus the further need for information...

...but, such is life.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Yeah, well that's why I posted a link to that post of mine for you...

Enjoy....