'Apartheid Israel' worse than apartheid SA

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"The "apartheid Israel state" is worse than the apartheid that was conducted in South Africa, Congress of South African Trade Unions (Cosatu) president Willie Madisha said on Monday.

He said Palestinians were being attacked with heavy machinery and tanks used in war, which had never happened in South Africa.

Cosatu and other organisations supporting Palestine have called on government to end diplomatic relations with Israel and establish boycotts and sanctions such as those against apartheid South Africa."

<snip>

"Professor of political science Virginia Tilley said South Africa was one of the only places where a vision had been brought forward to address collective punishment of perceived inferiority.

"I can't imagine a better beacon in that struggle than this country and it has stood back. If there is any moral authority in South Africa, it must come into play now," she said.

Madisha said Israel should be seen as an apartheid state and the same sanctions must be applied that were established against South Africa."

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/&articleid=276860

[mike_c]

1. it's about time the world started calling Israeli apartheid...

...by its real name. South Africans know that the Afrikaans did not have a monopoly on ethnic oppression and brutality.

[Tom Joad]

2. South Africa apartheid was a "sunday picnic" compared to Israel's

oppression of Palestinians. From the same labor leader.

He said, “Apartheid was characterised by killings,
hangings, disappearances, arrests, exile, confiscations, inferior education, rapes and
the creation of Bantustans. All this was like a Sunday picnic compared to what is
happening to the Palestinian people.” He went on to say that Apartheid was a brutal
and repressive regime but those fighting Apartheid had not faced attacks by F16
fighter planes and helicopter gunships nor had there been a repressive Wall like the
one that now stole more and more land from the Palestinian people.
Willy quoted Archbishop Desmond Tutu who said, ““I have seen the humiliation of
the Palestinians at roadblocks. It reminded me of what happened to us in South
Africa, where they battered us and heckled us, and took joy in humiliating us. My
heart aches.


So it is not surprising that there is a call for sanctions against the Israel regime as there a call among human rights activists to enforce sanctions against the old U.S./Israel supported South African regime.

[TomClash]

3. A more appropriate comparison than Nazi Germany

But "worse" may be a bit of an overstatement.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TomClash]

25. No, of course not

I agree with you. But it cheapens the coin to make a false comparison. Gaza is not the Warsaw Ghetto - where 300,000 people were uprooted and extinguished.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. .

:crazy:

[papau]

5. Socialist Project has Comrade Madisha doing the anti-Israel dance this

year

Hope they did not waste too much effort getting him to speak on this, as he does this speech every year, many times a year, as he seems to feel that it justifies the way he sells his unions influence for personal power and gain.

To be fair, he was a visible anti-apartheid fellow in SA, but God only knows if it was because of bravery or because he wanted to get into the money flow later.

To be a true Socialist these days one must always condemn Israel, it seems, and never say Hamas has gone too far.

Glad I am just a Democratic Party member - and not a true Socialist by these current standards of intellectual honesty.

[Dutch]

36. Well said. n/t

[cali]

6. I find the whole israel as apartheid

state, an example of the lack of critical thinking so prevalent today. Israel is conducting a brutal occupation, but the West Bank and Gaza are not part of Israel, as is pointed out frequently on these threads. Approximately a million non Jews live in Israel. There is discrimination, but it is not, by and large, codified. There's so much wrong with the comparison, I'm amazed that people continue to make it.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. You explained why people use it.

You state: " (it is) an example of the lack of critical thinking so prevalent today." It is the 'easy' comparison and evokes powerful emotions. I find it is a way to 'stop' conversation about the complexity of the situation in Israel and the Occupied Territories, be cause to discuss the lack of comparison is garnered as support for Apartheid and racism.

[pelsar]

8. it makes it very simple....

those who use it are not interested in a discussion, information, real issues....on the contrary its simple dehumanization of the israelis. Apartheid is bad and evil....applied to israel...presto!! israel is now evil.

the more interesting question is why do they do it?..is this the modern/acceptable form of anti semitism morphed into anti israel?...is its simply someone who just needs to "hate something" and israel is the convenient target?

and those who post the articles here?....same reasoning?

its is pretty clear, both the author of such articles and those who back them, prefer the dehumanization of the jewish israelis.....and that does remind us of times past.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scurrilous]

12. I think you're right Tom...

...he's all yours. I'm putting him on ignore.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Speaking from experience...

Yr viewing experience of this forum will be that little bit more pleasant :)

[Behind the Aegis]

16. ...and more myopic.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. No, the ignore function is there for a good reason...

It's to zone out posters who are considered a waste of space. What is myopic about putting (for example) someone who's been repeatedly abusive on ignore, yet not putting other people with similar views on an issue on ignore? That's a rhetorical question, btw, and there's no need for you to answer it given as how I know how keen you are to answer questions put to you :)

[Behind the Aegis]

18. it is there for a great reason...

...it is great at filtering out propagandists and clueless posters.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Yep, and that's what I use it for...

..though I only try to keep on poster on ignore at a time or the forum becomes unreadable :)

[Behind the Aegis]

20. which is why I don't ignore any...

...there is no reason their ignorance shouldn't be challenged. ;)

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Well, that's nice...

..but going around with the stance that people who disagree with you are ignorant and to be challenged isn't exactly the best way to approach constructive discussion at DU :)

[Behind the Aegis]

22. that isn't my position...

...it is only the way you present it!

[Violet_Crumble]

23. --

:eyes:

[AnOhioan]

38. You can say that again.....

My blood pressure has gone down since I selected certain individuals for "ignore".

Makes the reading experience much less stressful.

[pelsar]

13. so explain.....

I'm interested....an auther or poster who uses information that is obviously not true, invokes images that have no relation to the real situation (apartheid, nazis, holocuast wall, targeting and bombing water resources, targeting children, massacres, carpet bombing, gas etc. )

what would you call it?....since making up stories and lies is far beyond mere criticism...and given that all of this is directed at israel, when so many other countries have a far worse record (china, russia, zimbabwa....)

and some people cant even answer simple questions when they are "called out on it"....I admit, i see it as dehumanization of the israel and its jewish citizens....

perhaps you can explain it?
_____________________________________________
a footnote: putting me on ignore while legit, does show an inability to discuss the problems and viewpoints as seen by a typical liberal israeli..and it sure speaks volumes

reminds me of a friend of mine a couple of years ago....far left israeli/american. He wanted to speak at an ant war ralley in the States that ANSWER was partially sponsering, he was told no because hes israeli....hes not so "left" any more.

or the lady in the UK who sponsered the boycott against israel and dismissed her two israeli research assistants because they're israeli (If i recall correctly) and one was a past president of amnesty in israel. (I believe it was igal who provided that info here)

[TomClash]

24. Agreed

Oppressor as victim gets old, really old. Tony Judt said it best, "Above all, perhaps, the Holocaust is passing beyond living memory. In the eyes of a watching world, the fact that an Israeli soldier's great-grandmother died in Treblinka will not excuse his own misbehavior."

[pelsar]

28. it doesnt excuse any misbehavior..

never said it did...but it sure has an effect on his/our attitude for good and for bad.......

and israel is both oppressor as well as potential victim...ask the iranians president/hizballa/muslim brotherhood/hamas their plan for the jews and israelis?....and yes because of the our relatives at treblnka we take their words seriously and realize just as in our distant and not so distant past that no one else will.....


a couple of days ago was the anniversary of the rescue at Entebbe....they too seperated the israelis and jews from the rest......

[Violet_Crumble]

14. However, the term apartheid does belong in the I/P debate...

And, imo, anyone who thinks the term doesn't apply to what Israel is doing in the Occupied Territories is displaying a complete lack of grasp of the details of the Occupation...

When it comes to Israel itself and it's own citizens, there is no apartheid style system, but things change dramatically when it comes to the Occupied Territories, where such a system does exist. The only thing separating Israel from South Africa is that SA implemented its system on its own citizens within its own borders. For those who are of the belief that the West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel (and there's been more than a few of them posting in this forum in the past), it would mean that Israel is an apartheid state. Though I think that the lack of 'critical thinking' when it comes to a South African talking about apartheid is more the inability of some to view things through the individual prisms of peoples experiences and to at least to try to understand how those experiences shape their world views :)

[TomClash]

26. It's an excellent comparison

Though whether it is "worse" is a matter capable of question. I would say comparable.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. It is...

The system that flourishes in the Occupied Territories (not in Israel itself) is definately reminiscent of apartheid, and the reason there is so much of an attempt by 'supporters' of Israel to claim otherwise is because it's impossible to look at Apartheid South Africa and the Occupied Territories and not see the resemblances. In a thread a while back where the issue of apartheid came up, all sorts of red-herrings were thrown around. My fave was the one where someone claimed that all countries practice apartheid, ignoring the fact that apartheid is a legal system of discimination :)

[TomClash]

34. And . . .

. . . there's the "we tried to give them their own state" defense. Palestinians on the West Bank are expected to give their stamp of approval to a Palestinian "state" of disconnected Bantustans dotted across a map. How nice.

[pelsar]

35. no...

its more like..the palestenains had gaza to start the state building process, for not just for themselves (straighten out all their various gangbangers) but israel as well. To give us israelis confidence that once they have a state they wont use it to attack us...

and guess what?..they couldnt even wait for that, the very night we left gaza we were rewarded with 30 missles..and if that wasnt enough, they destroyed the greenhouses, engaged in a mini civil war and soon after hamas takes power they declare war, and kill and kidnap a soldier...

if they had their own state, importing longer range missles, all of the westbank would be partially destroyed by now.....

of course if i were to ask you some questions of future scenarios i assume you will ignore them (as you have in the past) because they dont conincide with your perfect future scenario.....

[pelsar]

27. apartheid....

in its pure defintion all countries have apartheid..neighborhoods would be an example of such.

if you were to talk to israelis from S.Africa and tell them how the system is Apartheid, they tend to think you have no idea what your talking about...the reason is they understand the palestenains are a nation, based on identity, geography, culture etc and not a race (genetics).

the reasons are security based and not skin color, or other genetic aspects...and thats why the "apartheid label is so evil"...its implication is genetic.....and that is a "loaded word."


more so, if one is interested in understanding the "other side" it becomes important to understand what "words" mean, beyond their definitions. Both the palestenians and israelis have such "lists" and when talking to palestenians, if one is interested in having a real conversation, out of simple respect for their culture, one steers away from the loaded ones....and when i speak with them, i get the same....its a minimum of courtesy when one is interested in having a discussion and understanding the "other side" (using loaded words immediately shuts down the discussion)


and simply proof is the time pre antifada I and today...the palestenains roamed up and down israel without any problem at all....and then the bombs started and the roadblocks went up and the bombs slowed down..ignoring history makes it easier i suppose, but it doesnt make it true.

but as an afterthought....might we call the palestenain society an apartheid one as well?...they too seperate amongst their own, and that does fit the definition....or is this a case of different standards?

[papau]

29. Well said n/t

n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

31. It also ignores the blatant racism from the other side

What is the penalty for selling land to a Jew under Hamas/PLO etc?

To say what is going on in Gaza etc is aparthied is not to understand what really went on in South Africa.

[cali]

33. It's an occupation.

As I said before, it's wrong, it's brutal and it's the cause of suffering, but the apartheid comparison is imo, simply wrong, and anyone who uses it does so for blatant emotional/political reasons or out of ignorance. It may surprise you to discover this, but just because someone has suffered through apartheid in SA that does not automatically confer legitimacy on their pronouncements about the I/P situation.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. It's an occupation which has characteristics of apartheid to it...

We agree the apartheid comparison is wrong when it comes to Israel proper, but disagree when it comes to the Occupied Territories. The West Bank, with its roads and settlements only for Israelis, and one set of civil law for Israeli settlers, and a set of military laws for Palestinians is very much reminiscent of apartheid. There's nothing ignorant nor emotional or political about that at all...

I didn't say that because someone had suffered through apartheid that it automatically confers legitimacy on their pronouncements on the I/P situation. In fact, seeing as how I made it very clear I actually disagree with what the author of the article was saying, I'm not sure why it'd be read that way. What I said was about understanding that people who have lived under Apartheid are going to view the world through a different lens than others would, and it's about understanding where they're coming from. And while I'd totally agree that just because someone has lived through Apartheid doesn't mean that legitimacy is conferred on their pronouncements on the I/P conflict (come to think of it, it doesn't even when it comes to apartheid), there are those like Desmond Tutu who do carry legitimacy, not only because of his work to end SA Apartheid, but because his words themselves are legitimate...

When it comes to the emotional/political/ignorance argument against using the term apartheid in reference to the Occupied Territories, does that same argument apply to me when I say that my country used an apartheid-style system against our indigenous population in the first half of the 20th century? If not, why not?

[pelsar]

40. depends upon your local culture

When it comes to the emotional/political/ignorance argument against using the term apartheid in reference to the Occupied Territories, does that same argument apply to me when I say that my country used an apartheid-style system against our indigenous population in the first half of the 20th century? If not, why not

cultures have their own specific rules...that should be obvious. One cant always take a cultural norms from one place and transplant them to another. As far as your question goes, i have no idea.....but you could probably answer that far better than i can.


i recall once that the "imported white austrialians" refer to themselves as "natives"...is that true?...and that its insulting if insinuated that that they arent. (this was years ago and it struck me as odd, but correct me if i am wrong)

all cultures have their oddities, some are harmless, some will get you killed.....assuming your version is the correct version is very "western colonial" in character, worse, is telling a local that they dont know what they're talking about.

[Phx_Dem]

32. It's the neo-con playbook

all about the "framing".

[cracksquirrel]

37. Exactamundo

The neocons figured out what worked, and boxed the Democrats into a hole that they have been unable to dig themselves out of, because the very language of politics is dictated by the Right. It's little surprise that other groups have adopted this same strategy. Given the high amount of support that Israel enjoys in the US as a whole, the national debate has been well framed by the pro-Israeli side. While on virtually any college campus or academic institution, the debate has been framed by anti-Israeli groups, as you can't throw a rock on a college campus without hitting a flier advertising a lecture on "Israeli Appartheid" or "ethnic cleansing" or the "genocide wall."