Report: Five Katyushas fall at Mt. Meron

[pelsar]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885980304&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

lets see, israel has had some soldiers kidnapped from israel up north, katushays landing in the galil...solider kidnapped from israel down south and kassams now landing near and in sederot and ashkelon


funny thing, both gaza and lebanon have in common: israel withdrew from both to the 67 border




and the wise posters of the DU....believe israel should do........? (suggestions anyone?)

[bemildred]

1. Re-invade both of them. Occupy their ass.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=107123

[Waya]

2. Yea, that'll help.....

[bemildred]

3. The Rumsfeld approach.

It you have an insoluble problem, try making it bigger.

[pelsar]

5. suggestions?

still waiting

[bemildred]

11. I'm afraid Mr. Freund's comments are all I have to offer.

Essentially, I think the problem is insoluble.

[Waya]

7. Ah, yes......

...escalate the thing, blow it entirely out of control.....and once that 'mission' is accomplished - stay the course.....

[pelsar]

8. or?

do you have other options?

[acmavm]

4. Keep dropping bombs on families on beaches, keep taking

all the arable land, bomb the Palestinian electrical power station, kill innocent civilians is some more of their 'strategic' bombing raids.

Israel is just to victimized and put upon.

[pelsar]

6. your suggestion? n/t

[acmavm]

9. Try dealing honestly with the Palestinian people for once.

Allow them land, decent arable land with water, to grow their trees and to farm. Quit taking all the good land for Isreal.

Work with their leaders, not refuse to talk to them and then threaten to kill them.

Quit over-reacting. Isreal's body count is nothing to the Palestinians.

But most of all, try to honestly come to some kind of terms. Let them in the world economy. Give them a reason to want peace.

[pelsar]

10. and that will work with hizballa?

so what happend with gaza?...before the kidnapping, after israel left.....

why is hizballa attacking...this is hardly the first time, infact they 've been attacking israel periodically over the last 6 years....and israel should ignore them?

"over reacting?....so israel shouldnt bother about its kidnapped soldiers?..

[Waya]

12. Does it sound more reasonable to you......

...that Israel is gonna kill dozens of people in Gaza and elsewhere to get back 2 Soldiers from Hezbollah and one from Hamas? Bit of an overkill don't you think?

[pelsar]

16. so what are you suggesting?

israel is already at the 67 border at both gaza and lebanon....and yet israel was attacked from across the border.

your suggestion is?....perhaps israel should just lay down their arms?


if what the IDF is doing is "overklll" are you suggesting they should use "less tanks" smaller bombs"....what exactly?

[mike_c]

40. your arguments are utterly disingenuous....

Neither Gaza nor Lebanon are in anyway "removed" from the larger political crisis simply because the IDF withdrew to it's 1967 borders, as I'm sure you are fully aware. That withdrawal was a first step, but it was not in any way a comprehensive solution-- you act as though the Palestinians and allied arabs should treat Israel with kid gloves because it took one step toward lowered aggression against Gaza-- withdrawal from Gaza was a good move, now there remains withdrawal from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, negotiation of borders, removal of the apartheid wall (or at least pulling it back to within Israel), living up to a whole host of U.N Security Council mandates, etc. Israel remains the most oppressive nation in the region despite it's withdrawal from Gaza. Gaza remained under seige, and as recent events have highlighted, the withdrawal itself was not perticularly meaningful if Israeli tanks and aircraft continue to penetrate Gaza, shell it, bomb it, etc at the slightest provocation.

[Mojorabbit]

13. If they want peace

then they need to give the average palestinian hope and assistance. Desperate people will follow leaders who give them hope for change or play on their need for a scapegoat. If the people are making a decent living and raising their families they will not be so easily led by the hatemongers. If the people are kept in refuge camps and have their land bombed and are treated like prisoners hatred will fester and will be used by the unscrupulous. Human nature. Nothing else will work. Honest dialog needs to be opened. People who are well fed and have something to live for are not so easily stirred. Look at the average american citizen. Can't hardly get them off their butt no matter what this administration does.

[pelsar]

14. thats why....

hizballa attacked israel?.....new flash: Hizballa is not living in refugue camps..

and what was leaving gaza all about, if not giving the palestenains a chance at 'making a life"...with out any israel

______

the result?....attacking israel on two fronts.

[Mojorabbit]

18. The point is hizballa would have trouble recruiting

people who are well fed and making a decent living. It would take a lot of time and effort but it could be done. It takes a lot of energy to hate. People who have nothing to lose and no hope are easily manipulated into hate. People who have something to live for are not so easily led to do things which would disrupt their life. Like I said, it is human nature.

[pelsar]

19. then you dont know Hezbollah...

they are not 'refugees"....they are an armed force paid and supplied by syria and iran (theyre not palestenains who are kept in camps in lebanon restricted in movment and professions by the lebanese)

try another theory, only use facts this time

[Mojorabbit]

26. I know who they are

and I say again that they could not operate in the region without cooperation from the palestinians. I am not about to help anyone disrupt my way of life because it is good. The same thing could happen there with enough work and time. See this?

I guarantee this is not going to do anything other than foment hate and retaliation on both sides.
So You have any better ideas than the one I proposed?
Plenty of americans have been killed abroad without us attacking a country except lately and you can see what has happened with that. We have suceeded in making more terrorists who hate us. Same thing here in my opinion. Dialog, a leg up for the palestinians, jobs, basic security, respect, restraint on both sides and time. This is the only way to peace.

[pelsar]

30. Lebanon? Hizballa?

that they could not operate in the region without cooperation from the palestinians

i really dont want to sound condescending but the palestenains are cooped up in camps in lebanon, restricted in many ways. The have no influence what so ever in lebanon. Hizballa has nothing to do with them. They are a political/militant group armed and fed by syria and iran.

this is lebanese politics 101. If you want to learn how much they are hated in lebanon hit the lebanese blogs... (and you will learn how they have nothing to do with the palestenains as well)

[Mojorabbit]

34. If you had a viable palestinian state

stable and prosperous living peacefully side by side with Israel you would remove a lot of the tension in the whole region. Everything Israel does to the palestinians gives hezbolla recruits.It furthers the agenda of Iran and lebanon and everyone who wants trouble for their own reasons. It causes tension all over the middle east. If you had a cooperative prosperous Israel/Palestine you take away a lot of the fodder to stoke hatred.

You have to begin somewhere. If Israel and Palestine were living in my mythical side by side in peace and respect, prosperous with cooperative business interests, and a rising standard of living for both and the region saw this it would be a good role model for the region. On the opposite end, you see what we have now and what it is doing. Do you have a third choice? Other than one wiping the other off the map there is no other way and they both need to realize it.

[pelsar]

36. i have no arguement with that ideal....

its getting there.....
and to blame israel for everything, which seems to be prevalent here, is absurd.

the most simple and glaring fact is that israel pulled out of lebanon 6 years ago and has been rewarded with missles, attacks and kidnapping attempts and otherwise ever since.

israel pulled out of gaza and was immediatly rewarded with missle attacks on its cities and over 60 attempts of gazans to "hope the fence"

seems to me, israel did the "right thing" and was rewarded with being attacked.

and Hizballa?...worried about the palestenains?...hardly. They have their own agenda, and without israel as the center piece they have little reason to exist, basic lebanese politics.

[Mojorabbit]

35. Oh and this is what I meant

"A top Hamas leader said his movement did not coordinate with Hezbollah over the capture of the soldiers but said it was "natural" for the groups to work together against Israel."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060712/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel_clash;_ylt=AvwA5odPX9c_LWy0v_DMj5us0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ
I don't know lebanese politics but I do know common sense.

[cali]

25. Nonsense.

People hate at the drop of a hat. Always have, probably always will. I actually agree with a lot of your suggestions in your earlier post; I think it would have been really interesting to see what would have happened had Israel, The US, The EU and Arab countries come up with an investment plan for Gaza. But don't kid yourself, hate ain't a rarity.

[pelsar]

27. off topic.....cali

the investment plan for gaza didnt have a chance...there was a lot of interest, not so much by the arabs but palestenains businessmen who "made it" in other countries. They was contact with israelis about investments etc (when the pullout was understood to be serious)....software was a big one, with the idea of israeli companies using palestinean "labor" (as opposed to indian, which is used a lot now), since there is no problem with "importing and exporting". Some of the settlers were interested in working on their greehouses as consultants etc

face it, given the pent up anger, culture, infighting, hamas/abbas conflict....no investment plan had a real chance.

[Mojorabbit]

28. I am going on my own experience

I don't walk around filled with hate. My life is fairly decent. Maybe I am unusual but I don't think so. The people I know who hate are mostly fundies who have been led there by manipulators. Another problem.

[bemildred]

15. Good for you.

You are of course correct. I've raised those issues any number of times here, and been told I was nuts, not in touch with reality, etc. I hope you have better luck. One could even speculate that the same sort of thing might have worked better in Iraq.
:thumbsup:

[bemildred]

17. See? You didn't say doodle about Hizballa, did you? nt

[pelsar]

21. he did

but since he didnt know the facts....simple as they are, its like living in a fantasy world

[bemildred]

22. All I see is "average palestinian".

Or did you mean "he didn't"?

[pelsar]

24. i read this:

The point is hizballa would have trouble recruiting people who are well fed and making a decent living

well since hizballa doesnt have a problem in recruiting people and they are well fed and are paid well...and arent palestenains, im not sure i understand what he is getting at.

[bemildred]

29. That was a later post than the one I responded to.

His first post, that you responded to, said doodle about hizballa. I figured he was starting a sub-thread.
Here is the post I was responding to:

"If they want peace then they need to give the average palestinian hope and assistance. Desperate people will follow leaders who give them hope for change or play on their need for a scapegoat. If the people are making a decent living and raising their families they will not be so easily led by the hatemongers. If the people are kept in refuge camps and have their land bombed and are treated like prisoners hatred will fester and will be used by the unscrupulous. Human nature. Nothing else will work. Honest dialog needs to be opened. People who are well fed and have something to live for are not so easily stirred. Look at the average american citizen. Can't hardly get them off their butt no matter what this administration does."

Nothing about hizballa.

Edit: there are these little vertical lines, like this '|', to the left of the posts that indicate which posts are responses to which other posts.

[pelsar]

31. I misunderstood...

happens enough....

[bemildred]

32. It's true enough you asked about hizballa.

But as I often find out, people don't have to respond to what you said.

I thought Hiz'ballah was made up of Lebanese Shi'ia, i.e. that they had lived there all along. Is that not true?

[pelsar]

33. Hizballa

is a mixed bag, but as is typical in the arab world where the shi'ias get shafted, its they who support them and provide much of Hizballas political base. And most lebanese born.

[Phx_Dem]

37. I like your idealism also

but how does Israel facilitate this? It reminds me of a Dylan line in a song, if you got nothing, you got nothing to lose.

[acmavm]

20. He's a soldier. That's part of military life. Yes, they should

bother. Do you claim that what the Israeli's have done since that ONE soldier was kidnapped has been just? Isreal created a humanitarian crisis, the are punishing thousands, and ONE soldier was kidnapped.

Supporters of Isreal think that that kidnapping justifies every ruthless an inhumane thing they've done since it happened. It doesn't.

And yes, Hizballa will be a problem. But working with Palestinian leaders may help ease that problem. And the definition of working with the Palestinians doesn't include dropping bombs on a civilian location from a jet in one of it's 'precision' strikes.

Israel has been no friend to any country, this one included.

[pelsar]

23. and the suggestion?

Hizballas kidnapping and attacks over the last 6 years has nothing to do with the palestenains.....
you probably didnt hear much because israel didnt do much about them....a lot of good it did.

the missles from gaza after israel left......israel was guilty of? and should have done?......


so israel shouldnt have left gaza? shouldnt have left lebanon?....i dont get it, why are they attacking if israel returned to the 67 borders?

[cantstandbush]

38. They did not withdraw but still bomb, bulldoze, and kidnap and kill?

and other parts of Palestinian territory. Withdrawing but continuing to bomb, bulldoze, and kill people does not make Israel the victim here.

Once a military tank crosses over into a sovereign nation's territory and is blown up, that is not an act of terrorism, but self-defense!

[acmavm]

39. Forget it. It doesn't do any good.

[uppityperson]

41. Northern Israeli city hit by rockets from Lebanon

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-07-13T042201Z_01_L13106480_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ISRAEL-ROCKETS.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-L3-Top+NewsNews-2
try this top link as other one changed. sorry

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-07-13T042201Z_01_L13106480_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ISRAEL-ROCKETS.xmJERUSALEM
Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:22am ET(Reuters) - The northern Israeli city of Nahariya was hit by Katyusha rockets fired from Lebanon on Thursday, the Israeli army said.

The army said it was unclear if there were casualties.

[still_one]

42. they removed the link

[uppityperson]

43. This one works

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-07-13T042201Z_01_L13106480_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ISRAEL-ROCKETS.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-L3-Top+NewsNews-2

[uppityperson]

44. updated

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-13T043536Z_01_L13106480_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-ISRAEL-ROCKETS.xml
At least two Katyusha rockets fired from Lebanon slammed into the northern Israeli city of Nahariya on Thursday, wounding three civilians, the Israeli army said.

The Lebanese guerrilla group Hizbollah said it had fired 60 rockets at Nahariya, a coastal city south of the Lebanese border.

Israeli aircraft earlier attacked two runways at Beirut international airport, dramatically widening an assault against Lebanon a day after Hizbollah seized two Israeli soldiers and killed eight.

The Israeli army said Hizbollah had also fired a number of rockets and mortars at other areas in northern Israel.One rocket landed in the Israeli town of Zarit, wounding one civilian. Another projectile damaged an Israeli airforce base near Mount Meron...(tiny bit more@link)

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll_Blind]

46. Can you please provide a link to that story?

That does not look like the results of a katyusha rocket, even a salvo.

Thanks!

PB