Support Peace, not Israel, Palestine, or the other arab nations

[DFLer4edu]

I've been reading through this forum and mostly what I see is a blame game going on. Those who support Israel blame Hamas and Hezbollah for starting this latest wave of violence. Those who support the arabs see this as just the latest wave of Israeli aggression, which did not begin with the kidnapping of a solider, but which has been ongoing. Each of these points of view however fails to recognize that it is a cycle of violence in which neither side is justified, but in which it is easy to understand the plight and points of view of either side.
For those who see Israel as the aggressor keep in mind that with an exception of Egypt and Jordan, every other arab nation is in a declared state of war with Israel. When Iran's president said Israel should be wiped from the map, we may have thought in the US that it was just rhetoric, but Israel takes that seriously for obvious reasons. Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations. I find it hard to believe that if the US had such neighbors we wouldn't build a wall around our country.
For those who see Israel as the victim of arab terrorism and arab aggression, the body count doesn't bear that out. Far more Palestinian civilians are killed than Israeli civilians. Israel provokes the Palestinians, and although the IDF does not systematically target civilians, they do show a blatant disregard for civilian lives. The IDF does target civilian infrastructure which has little or nothing to do with terrorist organizations, water pumps and bridges being prime examples. IF you were a palestinian you would not see Hamas as a terrorist organization, but as your only means of fighting against the vastly superior and oppressive Israel.

This is a cycle of violence, and until one side owns up to their part in that cycle, both sides deserve each other.

[sellitman]

1. Nice to see a DUer looking at the big picture. n/t

[still_one]

2. you are right, and that is why it is critical for a cease far to take

place as soon as possible

Unfortunately, I do not believe that will happen

[DFLer4edu]

9. Cease fire is complicated

It goes to the heart of the blame game. Both sides are in difficult positions right now, neither can back down without looking like it is caving. This is what started the Six Day War and is what will continue to escalate the current conflict if the world doesn't find a way to help both sides save face. Which isn't going to happen with a push to condemn Israel on the one hand and stong US backing of Israeli offensives on the other.

[redqueen]

3. Wonderful post...

if only the people with any control of the situation saw it that way.

*sigh*

[Taverner]

4. Yup

Hamas, Hizbollah, Likud, IDF, al Queda, the GOP - all out of the same mold.

[DFLer4edu]

19. How can I get your little icon, straight but not narrow

I like that

[ihaam]

5. the vastly superior and oppressive must stop first....

.... and saying both sides deserve each other is definately not the way towards peace...

[DFLer4edu]

10. You're playing the blame game

And no, saying they deserve each other is not a way towards peace, but an expression of frustration with the unwillingness of both side to see the plight of the other or a peaceful means of ending the overall problem.

[ihaam]

12. Hizbullah offered to exchange prisoners....

Israel refused, despite holding thousands of prisoners (including children)

... why isn't that a way toward peace??


I'm trying not to fall into the blame game, but its hard when you see clear injustice and oppression.

I fully understand Israels view point and use of disproportionate force against civilians as a means to defend itself. Very much like the shock and awe we used against Iraqis. And I understand Hizbullahs justification of capturing Israeli soldier to use in an exchange of prisoners.


What is different now is that Israel has ended the good old "tit-4-tat" that has generally been the war game played between Hizbullah and Israel.
Hence Hizbullah has followed Israels example and declared all out war.

[DFLer4edu]

17. Prisoner exchanges aren't a step toward peace if it isn't part of a ...

broader peace agreement. If Israel exchanges prisoners Hezbollah will simply kidnap more Israeli soldiers. Although I think Israel's latest offensive has been way out of proportion, I do not think that the we can reasonably ask Israel to agree to a prisoner exchange with a terrorist organization that preaches the destruction of Israel and the driving of the Jews to the sea. For Israel to make such an exchange outside of a broader peace agreement would be madness. I understand Hezbollah's position and I do not blame them any more than I blame Israel. I understand that they are trying to free their people and fight an oppressive occupying force. However, I also believe that it is easy for both sides to rationalize and justify their actions. It is harder is for both sides to own up to their part in the cycle of violence. Perhaps even more frightening than the actions of each side is the rhetoric which they employ; when they are not fighting an all out war each side is preaching one.

[Master Mahon]

6. "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword"

Has there ever been peace in the Middle East?
Does either side care enough about the possibility of living in peace with each other?
Or has man simply not evolved to the point where that is possible?
Everyone touts their 'Religion' as being what's most important to them.
Yet NONE of the descendants of Abraham have an iota of the faith that he had, and none seem willing to attain it.
If ALL sought and united around those things they have in common, rather then their differences, there would be a possibility for peace.
I'm not holding my breath.

[ihaam]

13. Yes, there was peace before Israel formed......

You're absolutely right about neither fully following the faith of their forefather Abraham.

Bothers and close relatives can be the worst of enemies. Sometimes the things people have in common are a reason for even greater conflict...

In this case, Jews and Muslims share the same forefather, land and G_d .....

[joemurphy]

7. I think lots of us feel this way. But I think this latest Israeli

foray has the active support and blessing of the White House. I can't understand why no one is saying anything about it. I also can't understand why our Democratic leadership is acting as though this is just more of the same from the Middle East and saying zero, zip, nada about it.

From our leadership's statements we're all solidly behind Israel and invading Lebanon is perfectly OK. I'm (as usual) sickened by what passes for our foreign policy, but I've come to expect this from Bush and his cronies. I am very disappointed that our Democratic leadership isn't taking the view espoused in your statement. Sadly (as usual) we are taking a don't rock the boat, don't say anything wrong, hope for the best, we'll get them (maybe) in the next election approach.

In our own way, by saying nothing about the invasion of Lebanon, we're as culpable as Bush and his Israeli proxies.

[DFLer4edu]

15. Very true

I believe both the Israeli government and Hamas are both in difficult positions right now. Israel has Hamas cornered with its demand that they renounce terrorism. They are in a catch 22. It is very hard for American government officials to restrain Israel so long as Hamas is a terrorist organization. Since 9/11 the US (by which I mean Bush, but also many "leading" democrats) has stood silent over such counter-terrorism measures which are just as repulsive as the terrorist acts themselves and are arguably terrorism in their own right. Putin has got a free hand in Chechnya in this manner. His so called "counter-terrorism measures" have radicalized a greater portion of Chechnyians and driven them into the hands of the terrorists. In the case of Hamas renouncing terrorism would be equivalent to saying that there struggle against Israel is unjust. They will not disarm for fear that it will leave them even more helpless against Israel, which is probably true. But as it is the White House has given Israel a free hand for death and destruction because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Hamas is realizing that being in power is not as easy as opposing Israel. When in power, you have to be, or at least you should be, responsible for your actions. It is impossible for them to truly justify their tactics to the world. Even though Israel is killing their civilians left and right, they are a terrorist organization, which means that Washington will turn a blind eye because it wants the world to turn a blind eye to its counter-terrorism. As for Israel, they're realizing that when you continue, to prod, provoke, and kill a people, they support some of the most radical of their leaders. Hamas is in power thanks to the lack of restraint Israeli political leaders have shown in regards to counter-terrorism. Neither side has an easy way to back down from the current fighting.

[northernsoul]

8. I'm on the side of the human beings and peace

I'm opposed to aggressive ideologies and war.

My allegiances are pretty simple.

[cool user name]

29. Well said! n/t

[TomClash]

11. I disagree

There was peace after Oslo and before the Intifada and yet the occupation continued and the settlements grew and continue to grow more. protest marches were of no use. Peace essentially meant and still means the status quo, which means the Palestinians live in undignified squalor and abject hopelessness. Take a trip to Tel Aviv and then to Ramallah - see for yourself.

[ihaam]

14. Oslo seems so far away

Bush helped kill it for good by talking about a road map to drag peace between I/P off the road...

and he succeeded...

[TomClash]

16. It is so far away

No question Bush bears some blame here.

[DFLer4edu]

18. This is where the US should own up to its failures

And where Bush continues to make his case as the worst president ever. It's so sad it's funny to hear him and Rice talk about the Road Map.

[ClassWarrior]

20. Adjust the title a bit, expand the content, and post this in GD, please!

Excellent. Truly excellent.

Never Give Up.

[DFLer4edu]

21. Which district is the 5th?

You have the thing for a candidate for the 5th district in Wisconsin, I was wondering if that includes Madison?

[pelsar]

22. breaking the cycle....

the way to break the cycle of violence is for one side to make a dramatic step.

in fact that was done by israel, Israel removed its settlers from Gaza with the assumption that by breaking the cycle the palestenaisn would then have a chance to start developing a society.....

the kassams that were launched that very night and have never let up.......israel at first didnt respond....
_______

figure out why the palestenains couldnt/wouldnt respond to the israeli gesture with a positive response and you'll understand a lot more about the conflict.

[ProgressiveCritic]

24. What a JOKE!

Too bad the Israelis did everything in their power to ensure that no viable government could rule in Gaza. They worked nonstop to undermine the Hamas gov't... which came to power in free and fair elections.

Israel withdrew from Gaza and then ensured that the economy and infrastructure of Gaza would be destroyed.

Bravo to Israel for a job well done!!

It is the constant M.O. of Israel and its omnipresent apologists to harp on Kassams and "charters" while they are busy destroying and murdering people on the ground.

[pelsar]

27. know the history...

though it does get in the way sometimes:

israel left gaza...the palestenians shared a border with egypt. All the palestenains had to do was to work on their economy and society, that was it.

instead they destroyed part of the greenhouses and kept on attacking israel as well as the border control points....they shouldnt have.

and whatever the intl politics..its was irrelevant to the chance that the palestenains had in gaza. Instead they used their "relative freedom to launch rockets..did they really expect israel NOT to respond?

[DFLer4edu]

25. That's one way of looking at it, the other is that it was a land grab

The land in the Gaza Strip was never very useful or important to the Israelis, when compared to their settlements in the West Bank. The withdrawal from Gaza gave the Israeli government political capital at home and in the United States to complete the wall which ensures that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are on the Israeli side of the wall. It was a dramatic step, but the intention wasn't to find a lasting peace. It was the result brilliant strategic and political assessment on the part of Israel, which bought them considerable political capital at home and abroad. The intention was to secure their holdings in the West Bank. It was not, however, a well intentioned peace offering. So long as the construction of the wall continues Israel cannot seriously say that it is currently trading land for a lasting peace.

[catmother]

23. i'm almost 65 years old. from the time i was in my 20s i wanted

to visit israel and egypt. i always said "as soon as things calm down there, i'm going". i am saddened by the fact that it has never happened.

i pray for peace on all sides.

[DFLer4edu]

26. I have friend who lived in Egypt for awhile and got to visit Israel...

the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Lebanon etc. It sounded like a great experience. I'd like to maybe spend a semester in Egypt.

[cool user name]

28. Can you please tell me ...

... where you heard that "every other arab nation is in a declared state of war with Israel?"

Did I miss something?

Also, could you please tell me when Iran turned into an Arab nation? I missed that one too. Thanks.