Israel started all this (Noam Chomsky)?

[Terran1212]

Why hasn't this been reported somewhere? Unless Noam Chomsky is blatantly lying, it looks as if Israel started all this (which you could argue they did anyway by shelling civilians on a beach earlier):

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/14/146258

"Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don’t know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That’s Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don’t have to repeat. It’s reported on adequately."

So basically by not reporting about the Gaza abductions but about the kidnapped IDF soldiers, the media is saying this: Israel has the "Right to defend herself" but the Palestinians DO NOT.

[burythehatchet]

1. Manufacturing Consent n/t

[Teaser]

2. "Who started it" is a children's argument at this point.

Both sides are lunatics. I'm sick of both of them.

[Terran1212]

9. I agree with you that "who started it" is a bad argument overall

But I want to set the record straight here; too many are saying this is israel protecting itself from unprovoked attack. When you kidnap or murder Gaza citizens -- how can you not expect a reprisal?

[etherealtruth]

12. I rarely comment in these threads because I agree with you ...

There is so much blood on everybody's hands ... nothing is clear cut ... nobody is right.

In the mean time innocent regular folk die.

[winter999]

16. There is a way to distinguish between the two sides.

Nowhere have I read or heard Israel calling for the complete destruction of anyone, Palestinians, Muslims, Arabs, etc. Unlike Hezbollah who is committed to the destruction of Israel (along with their Iranian masters). They have sworn never to stop killing until Israel is gone. Hmmmm. Seems problematic to have two parties talk peace when one exists to kill the other.

[etherealtruth]

24. I can distinguish btw. the two sides ...

I believe they both have so much blood on their hands, neither side can claim "moral superiority" at this point.

[ihaam]

27. Israel doesn't say it, they do it

I can only see Israel causing the destruction of Arab lives....

Israelis are living an "infinitely" more comfortable and healthier life style in comparison....

You need to look at what's happening on the ground for the truth.


Israel nearly always ignore steps that could lead to a true peace. Take for example the consensus the was established only a day before the current invasion of Gaza. Hamas issued a statement that bordered on recognizing Israel. It was only a question of time....

Peace is only possible through dialogue... war will beget war, nothing else.

[MrPrax]

39. Right said...

Israel nearly always ignore steps that could lead to a true peace.

Like clockwork...in fact up until the Gaza occupation, Hamas was doing exactly what Israel demanded again...recognize the state of Israel.

And that's the rub...with that little impediment gone, then Israel really doesn't have much else to offer in not co-operating with the Palestinians government...all of Israels actions recently since the election of Sharon, have to be occupation and annexation.

Israel can't negotiation peace because a good chuck of the Israeli population doesn't want peace, or a 'two-state' solution or anything else (Israelis are given a blanket pass) and so no political party can even enter into position of 'peace talks' without members of the various coalition members and military underminng it through some inevitable attack that causes a reaction.

The chain of events of this latest outrage are quite obvious against Israel -- hell even at one point FIFA was pissed off at Israel's destruction of a soccer field over alledged shelling that was never confirmed by anyone, but some Israeli commander.

If you notice, the 'road map' isn't even mentioned anymore even though it is supposed to be Bush's plan --like all the rest. Anytime there is a current peace process, it is elminated by Israeli actions.

[PA Democrat]

42. What's the old saying? Actions speak louder than words?

Both sides have an obscene amount of blood on their hands.

[threadkillaz]

17. The British started it.

The Balfour Declaration (1917)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_1917

[sabbat hunter]

26. are you saying

that israel shouldnt have been founded?

do you think israel has a right to exist?

[WyLoochka]

36. Balfour Declaration synopsis

"one nation solemnly promised to a second nation the country of a third." Arthur Koestler

[bennywhale]

45. Aah, its the British again.

But i thought they were all anti-semites?

[KaptBunnyPants]

23. True enough, but our tax dollars are still funding Israels militarism.

If Israel is responsible for this incident, then we need to aggressively make the case, because this is the first I'm hearing of this. We can't let Israel drag us into a greater ME religous war based on a "polish invasion".

[DFLer4edu]

29. I like Noam, but you're right n/t

[maxsolomon]

3. I/P forum

mods

[stop the bleeding]

4. I love Noam and Amy

thank you


and he is right

[Voltaire99]

30. I do, too.

This remark by Chomsky leapt out, and should be understood by all Democrats as it is the outlook of their party, too:

"The United States regards Israel as virtually a militarized offshoot, and it protects it from criticism or actions and supports passively and, in fact, overtly supports its expansion, its attacks on Palestinians, its progressive takeover of what remains of Palestinian territory, and its acts to, well, actually realize a comment that Moshe Dayan made back in the early ’70s when he was responsible for the Occupied Territories. He said to his cabinet colleagues that we should tell the Palestinians that we have no solution for you, that you will live like dogs, and whoever will leave will leave, and we'll see where that leads. That's basically the policy. And I presume the U.S. will continue to advance that policy in one or another fashion."

[whistle]

5. Thanks, I've been waiting to see what Noam Chomsky would have to say

...who is Israel's leader at this moment?

[Terran1212]

11. Ehud Olmert n/t

[redqueen]

6. Why hasn't it been reported somewhere?

Are you kidding?



mods: please don't move to I/P... this is a topical current events subject due to the developing situation.

[Terran1212]

10. I'm sure the Arab press has reported it thoroughly

After all Noam just came back from Beirut when he was giving this interview.

[Selatius]

19. I wonder how the hell he got out of Beirut since the place is blockaded.

Did he leave through Syria?

[Emit]

20. Here's an initeresting analysis that coincides and confirms what Noam said

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060630_kidnapped_by_israel.php

Few readers of a British newspaper would have noticed the story. In the Observer of 25 June, it merited a mere paragraph hidden in the “World in brief” section, revealing that the previous day a team of Israeli commandos had entered the Gaza Strip to “detain” two Palestinians Israel claims are members of Hamas.

The significance of the mission was alluded to in a final phrase describing this as “the first arrest raid in the territory since Israel pulled out of the area a year ago”. More precisely, it was the first time the Israeli army had re-entered the Gaza Strip, directly violating Palestinian control of the territory, since it supposedly left in August last year.

~snip~

So why was the Palestinian attack, and not the earlier Israeli raid, an escalation?

~snip~

It was not as though Johnstone or the Guardian had far to look for reasons for the Palestinian attack, explanations that might frame it as a retaliation no different from the Israeli one. In addition to the shelling that has caused some 30 civilian deaths and inflicted yet more trauma on a generation of Palestinian children, Israel has been blockading Gaza’s borders to prevent food and medicines from reaching the population and it has successfully pressured international donors to cut off desperately needed funds to the Palestinian government. Then, of course, there was also the matter of the Israeli army’s violation of Palestinian-controlled territory in Gaza the day before.

None of this context surfaced to help audiences distinguish cause and effect, and assess for themselves who was doing the escalating and who the retaliating.

[Terran1212]

22. It's borderline racism to report that way

It's innocent israel defending itself is all we seem to be hearing.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

7. And as he rightly points out...

...in the interview, the Palestinian people are being brutally punished, as promised by the U.S. and Israel, for having dared to freely express their wishes and electing Hamas to represent them.

[rman]

8. It doesn't fit the fake picture that the powers that be have been,

and still are, painting for us.

Most of the media lies are not outright lies, but lies of omission. Much truth is in what we're not being told.

[porphyrian]

13. The Arab-Israeli blame game goes back to the early part of the...

...last century, when most of the agression began (oh, I know they had a few spats over the millennia, but the truth is that the majority of the conflict in the Middle East began in the early 20th century - Muslims and Jews lived in peace together in the region most of the time, having more in common than not, most importantly an emphasis on education and a respect for tradition). Around the time of the first World Wars, before the state of Israel existed as more than a religious concept in Judaism, a number of Jews displaced by the wars began settling in the region, many associating with the Zionist sect of Judaism. As many of these people arrived with European cultural behavior rather than the Mediterranean/Middle Eastern culture the locals were used to, there was a memetic clash and struggle for dominance that continues today, having escalated to the level just before all-out war.

[Terran1212]

14. I agree with your overall point very strongly

I just think it's unjust that the entire argument in the media is centered around whether Israel's response is proportionate, as if it was attacked without provocation which is false.

[bloom]

15. This was a good reminder, as well.

"What's happening in Gaza, to start with that -- well, basically the current stage of what's going on -- there's a lot more -- begins with the Hamas election, back the end of January. Israel and the United States at once announced that they were going to punish the people of Palestine for voting the wrong way in a free election. And the punishment has been severe."

CHOMSKY is always on top of the hypocrisy of punishing people for voting - by so-called democracies.

[Selatius]

18. I wasn't aware about the June 24th abduction of civilians

I am aware, however, of the Gilad Shalit abduction, though. Funny how the news media tends to miss reporting certain RELEVANT FACTS!

[Igel]

43. At least one brother--names were subsequently forthcoming--

was apparently a Hamas member. Both may have been, it wasn't a big point with me.

Oddly, nothing more was forthcoming, for example, Why did Israel go after those particular men?

However, rather than ask why those two, the media focused on claims--never actually proven, but more like rumors--that the Israelis also stole and gratuituously beat the men's elderly father. But such is a trope, a commonplace, the Israelis rarely do anything without also stealing and gratuituously beating the elderly, women, and small children.

[genie_weenie]

21. Who started arguments rate

right along side we have God On Our Side declarations. Each "side" uses them in order to justify wanton killing and indiscriminate "reprisals".

Go Back far enough and you'll see it's always a never ending cycle which culminates in "Sack of Magdeburg".

[heidler1]

25. The rub is that we are assisting the Israeli side and the reason for

this assistance gets more and more obscure.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. The events of June 24th were noted here on DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x128640

and, as well as being reported in Israel, it was reported by AP and Reuters, and widely distributed:

http://news.google.co.uk/news?svnum=10&as_scoring=r&hl=en&ned=&ie=UTF-8&q=gaza+two+arrest&btnG=Search+News&as_drrb=b&as_mind=24&as_minm=6&as_maxd=25&as_maxm=6

[Poll_Blind]

31. Excellent point Muriel! One more saved from the Memory Hole... n/t

PB

[ChuckyDee]

32. chomsky is lying....and you guys just buy into it hook, line, and sinker

Right.......2 gazans abducted for no reason.....and of course, they have no names. LOL! Maybe Barney the dinosaur was abducted too. And Homer Simpson! Thanks Noam!

Brilliant.

And then the next day, in retaliation, the Gazans abducted Israelis. Did they start digging the tunnel that was used to abduct these soldiers just seconds after these imaginary Gazans were abducted?

Please.

[rman]

33. thanks for the sources

...

[ChuckyDee]

34. Here's your source

"The kidnapping is a major intelligence failure for the army, reports Berger. For weeks, the military had been warning that Palestinian militants were planning a major attack in the area. Yet militants were able to dig a 700-yard long tunnel right under the nose of Israeli troops, infiltrate a base and blow up a tank. Six of the eight attackers escaped. The army has launched an investigation."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/26/world/main1749981.shtml

So assuming Chomsky is correct, Israelies abducted 2 nameless Gazans (hilarious) and then WITHIN the next day the Palestinians built a 700 yd long tunnel to get revenge for those kidnappings.

Chomsky is a joke. He was discredited more than 30 years ago for his anti-American and anti-Israel bashing.

[rman]

35. What makes you think the tunnel was dug specifically for the abduction?

It is the RW that has all the incentives to discredit Chomsky. It's not like there are no reasons to criticize US and Israeli state policies - the reasons of which most DUers are well aware, so i'm not going to bother trying to convince you.

[ChuckyDee]

37. the tunnel

So the Gazans only had peaceful intentions for digging a 700 yard tunnel, right? And I'm sorry - if you can't see how THIS one example discredits Chomsky, you're simply brainwashed.

[rman]

38. Well, you'll find that most of DU is brainwashed.

Is the only alternative to the tunnel being dug for the purpose of a long planned abduction, that is was build for peaceful purposes?

[Major Hogwash]

40. Chomsky is anti-American?

Because you say so?

I don't think that's correct.

[ChiciB1]

41. I'm Usually Sitting On The Fence Between These Two Countries, However I Mu

disagree with you about Noam Chomsky! He IS NOT a joke! I don't know your age or how much you've read or researched Chomsky, but you COULD call him a Pacifist, but no joke. He is very definitely Anti-War for sure, but I simply have to defend him.

Had you watched Democracy NOW yesterday you would have heard even more, not only from Chomsky but others who live in the area and have denounced Israel. But again, we are talking Democracy Now and while I prefer THEIR news, I'm sure many would disagree from time to time. At the very least Amy Goodman does a good job of "digging" for news as opposed to relying on CBS! Your link to an article BY CBS bothers me too!

Seems they have pulled a few shenanigans themselves of late and I for one don't find them very credible anymore. MSM IS NOT going to give you "both" sides I fear! What have they been doing for 6 years? If you think we've been served well by them, then I suppose you have much more confidence in them than I.

[Emit]

44. Other news reports confirm Chomsky

Israel makes first Gaza arrest raid since pullout
(Reuters)

24 June 2006 GAZA - Israeli forces detained two Palestinians, who the army said were Hamas militants, in the Gaza Strip on Saturday in what marked the first such arrest raid in the territory since Israel pulled out of Gaza a year ago.


Ali Muamar, a Palestinian known to local residents as a Hamas loyalist, said he was asleep on a bed outside his home near Rafah refugee camp in south Gaza when he woke up and saw uniformed Israeli soldiers scaling down the walls of his courtyard with ladders.

“They attacked me all of a sudden,” he said. “They blindfolded and handcuffed me and started beating me up with the butts of their rifles and kicking me with their boots.”

Muamar said the soldiers raided his home, took his computer and left after less than an hour with his sons -- Osama, a doctor who had arrived in Gaza last month from Sudan, and Mustafa, a student of Islamic law.

~snip~

An army spokeswoman confirmed troops had entered Gaza and detained the men, saying they were Hamas militants who had planned to carry out an anti-Israeli attack. Muamar said he and his sons were not involved in hostilities against Israel.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:OP9CYAVflsYJ:www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp%3Fxfile%3Ddata/middleeast/2006/June/middleeast_June493.xml%26section%3Dmiddleeast%26col%3D+the+first+arrest+raid+in+the+territory+since+Israel+pulled+out+of+the+area+a+year+ago&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

Also, noted discussion here:

The British Media And The Invasion Of Gaza

By Jonathan Cook
Few readers of a British newspaper would have noticed the story. In the Observer of 25 June, it merited a mere paragraph hidden in the “World in brief” section, revealing that the previous day a team of Israeli commandos had entered the Gaza Strip to “detain” two Palestinians Israel claims are members of Hamas.

The significance of the mission was alluded to in a final phrase describing this as “the first arrest raid in the territory since Israel pulled out of the area a year ago”. More precisely, it was the first time the Israeli army had re-entered the Gaza Strip, directly violating Palestinian control of the territory, since it supposedly left in August last year.

As the Observer landed on doorsteps around the UK, however, another daring mission was being launched in Gaza that would attract far more attention from the British media – and prompt far more concern.

Shortly before dawn, armed Palestinians slipped past Israeli military defences to launch an attack on an army post close by Gaza called Kerem Shalom. They sneaked through a half-mile underground tunnel dug under an Israeli-built electronic fence that surrounds the Strip and threw grenades at a tank, killing two soldiers inside. Seizing another, wounded soldier the gunmen then disappeared back into Gaza.

~snip~

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060630_kidnapped_by_israel.php