Palestinian children arrested after breaking through Gaza fence

[drdon326]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030915/wl_mideast_afp/mideast_unrest_030915094944

Two Palestinian children were arrested by the Israeli army after being used as guinea pigs to break through a security fence bordering the Gaza Strip.

The youngsters, aged eight and 10, told interrogators that they had been crossed into Israeli territory on Sunday evening after being threatened with violence.

The boys had been sent to test the security capacity of the fence around the Kissufim area, the Israeli army said Monday.

..................................................................

Using kids as guinea pigs ??

that cant possibly be true :eyes:

[David__77]

1. What kind of article is this?

"Guinea pigs"? That's a bit strident. And, once again, it's not a "fence," it is quite clearly a wall, as in "Berlin Wall." And it is not on the green line. It is carving up of the occupied territories. That is an objective fact. The media are unfairly characterizing this issue.

[StandWatie]

2. Gaza wall is pretty much on the green line

There is nothing to steal out there but desert so they don't bother.

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. Israeli "interrogators" can make 10 year olds talk, all right!

I bet they are some of the best in the business at getting children to say all kinds of things....while they can still talk.

[Gimel]

8. You aren't a parent

or a teacher. That's obvious. Ten year olds are easy to talk to.

[DuctapeFatwa]

12. I imagine the "interrogators" find everyone easy to talk to

for the first few hours, anyway.

Must be a comfort to Israeli parents to look at their own children and know that in some dark hole, Palestinian children are being intensely "interrogated."

[Gimel]

14. this is slander

:nuke:

[Violet_Crumble]

15. No it ain't...

Here's what Amnesty International has to say on the detention of Palestinian children...

Scores of Palestinian children have also been arrested by the IDF, held incommunicado without access to their families and subjected to torture or ill-treatment, and thousands have had their homes demolished by the IDF.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002?open&of=ENG-364

Violet...

[Gimel]

16. You left out the Israeli children killed

Israeli children have been killed in direct and indiscriminate attacks, including suicide bombings, and shootings by members of Palestinian armed groups and by Palestinian individuals who may not belong to armed groups(3), both inside Israel and in settlements or on roads leading to settlements in the Occupied Territories.

The patterns of killings described in this report show how the right to life of Palestinian and Israeli children has been repeatedly violated as a result of the systematic failure of the Israeli authorities, Palestinian armed groups, and the Palestinian Authority (PA) to comply with the obligations and safeguards set down in international human rights and humanitarian law.

This report focuses on the killing of children, the most grave and irreversible of the many abuses to which Palestinian and Israeli children have been subjected in the past two years.(4) Over the years, Amnesty International and other organizations have documented different patterns of serious and systematic violations of some of the most fundamental human rights -- including the right to life-- in Israel and the Occupied Territories.(5)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002?open&of=ENG-364

The killing and mistreatment of all children is a heart-breaking and inhuman ordeal. No intentional killing has been carried out. Well-paid AI workers must look down on the conditions of Israelis. There is a complete lack of understanding of the conditions that the IDF must work under, in a conflict Israel didn't initiate.


In the first seven months of 2002 alone, 36 children (17 in the Occupied Territories and 19 in Israel) were killed, the equivalent of the total number of Israeli children killed during the whole of the previous year.(13) Amnesty International has repeatedly called on Palestinian armed groups to end attacks on civilians, which can never be justified, immediately and unconditionally.(14)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002?open&of=ENG-364

The actions of the Palestinians against settlers, killing their children, is intended to enrage them, and does. This provocation does not promote cooperation in establishing peace.

In response to increased Israeli and international pressure, the PA has claimed that it has exerted a 100 percent effort to prevent terrorist operations and refers to having "arrested hundreds of individuals suspected of violating the ceasefire," banning paramilitary organizations and prohibiting financial transfer to them.

It is not possible to establish with certainty to what extent the persistence and increase in attacks against civilians by armed groups based in areas under the jurisdiction of the PA is due to the weakening of the PA security structures by IDF attacks on Palestinian security installations and detention centres, to collusion or inaction by Palestinian officials and security forces members sympathetic to the armed groups, or to the high level of popular support enjoyed by these armed groups. The available evidence indicates that each of these factors is a contributing element to the escalation of the situation in the areas under the PAs jurisdiction and to the prevailing atmosphere of impunity.

Whatever the impact these factors may have had on the PAs capability of ensuring respect for the rule of law in the areas under their jurisdiction, it does not diminish the PAs obligation to take concrete measures to prevent attacks by Palestinian groups against Israeli children and other civilians, to conduct thorough and impartial investigations into these attacks, and to bring those responsible to justice according to international standards for fair trials.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002?open&of=ENG-364

If the Palestinians wanted, they could arrest the terrorists and bring them to trial as they are obligated to by the AI report. By refusing to act, they are not giving Israel any alternative to the targeted killings, building demolitions, and demolitions of homes of terrorists. Civilian casualties that occur of innocent bystanders are a tragedy of this conflict. Innocent civilians on both sides have been killed. To blame only Israel is a gross injustice.

Please note that:(2) According to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC), and most other international standards, a child is anyone under the age of 18. Amnesty International also uses this definition.

Palestinians youths are therefore defined as children. The detention of "children" between the ages of 15-18 does happen regularly, according to reports I've read. However, the detention of children by the IDF between the ages of 5-15 seldom or never occurs.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Because Israeli children weren't being discussed...

You claimed that it was slander to claim that Palestinian children were detained and interrogated. The relevent portion (and what you came out with in yr post wasn't relevent to the discussion) proved that it was happening, therefore not slander. If yr gonna embark on a tit-for-tat routine in order to try to prove two wrongs make a right, at least try discussing the detention and mistreatment of children instead of trying to divert attention by going off on a different tangent...

Violet...

[Gimel]

17. You've totally missed my point

The slander is the attitude that was ascribed to Israelis.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. No I didn't..

And I proved with that AI report that it wasn't slander. End of story....

Violet...

[Gimel]

21. Perhaps arbitration is the answer

If you unilaterally claim victory with every argument, that shows an authoritarian streak.

My comment about slander was with regards to a specific post which you misinterpreted. End of story.

[DuctapeFatwa]

20. It is the policy of the Israeli government

I can certainly feel for those who are tasked with the defense of torture, especially of children, I guess you do the best you can.

[Gimel]

22. The Geneva Conventions

Remember those? Fifteen is the youngest age for conscription into the army that the Geneva Conventions sanction. There are fifteen year old Palistinian youths, which the AI defines as children, working as Palestinian militants. Sixteen and Seventeen year olds have blown themselves up in Israel on crowded buses.

the article posted is about 9 and 10 year olds. Now you are calling 17 years olds children. You failed to define what you considered children. The US armed forces accepts 17 yer olds for enlistment (with parental permission). Does tht mean that the US army uses child soldiers? Are 15 year olds sent to prisons in your country if they break the law?

I agree with AI that the brains of 15-18 year olds have not physically matured. That's why it's easy for the Hamas and other organizations to take advantage of them. I have articles available about the Palestinians use of children, not only in throwing rocks. Fourteen year olds are considered children, and not allowed to take part in armed conflict (Geneva Conventions)

[DuctapeFatwa]

23. I'm not sure citing Geneva is the best defense of Israeli use of torture

It's original, though.

[Gimel]

25. Your imagination

can conjure up many instances. No need to cite any defense in that case. The GC was a reference for the age of combatants. Obviously there are violations there on the Palestinian side.

[DuctapeFatwa]

26. Again, I admit it is hard to defend torture

Not a pretty job, and I don't envy those who for whatever reason, are compelled to do it.

[Scurrilous]

4. Oh ,it has to be true..

The youngsters, aged eight and 10, told interrogators that they had been crossed into Israeli territory on Sunday evening after being threatened with violence.

I'm sure the childrens parents and attorneys, all of whom I'm positive were present during interrogation, can attest to the veracity of the Israeli Army's claim. :eyes:

[newyorican]

5. Hasbara in full effect...

and coming from the IDF (or should I say LGF?), it probably isn't very accurate. In fact, the speculation is that the IDF sent these kids through as "Guinea Pigs" and the story (complete with feigned shock) is just cheap Lysol on top of odorous flatulence.

Too bad there are no reliable sources to believe anymore...

[papau]

6. AFP is a solid source - so folks are "testing" fence with kids - surprise?

"The boys had been sent to test the security capacity of the fence around the Kissufim area, the Israeli army said Monday. The pair were picked up after they triggered a warning."

and this means we should hate the PA folks or Hamas - or Israel?

Meanwhile I found interesting "Shots fired at Palestinian hosting his Israeli girlfriend" By Arnon Regular, Amos Harel and Jonathan Lis, Haaretz Correspondents, Haaretz Service and Agencies

A Palestinian man was wounded by gunshots Mondayevening in the West Bank village of Kablan, near Nablus. The man's Israeli girlfriend was visiting him, and several of the village residents who found about it, opened fire at his home.

Seems being friends -Israeli lady with a PA lad - is grounds to kill the PA lad - at least to the PA folks - seems reasonable?

[newyorican]

7. The source is the IDF.

Did you read the article?

[LastDemInIdaho]

9. More credible than palestinianchronicle.com

Why would palestinians shoot at their own kind for seeing an Israeli?

[newyorican]

11. What a big, fat, smelly...

red herring.

[LastDemInIdaho]

13. As good as the floundering

maroon suckerfish crapping on the IDF source.

[StandWatie]

24. do you somehow believe..

that it's the IDF's or CENTCOM's for that matter business to be a journalistic organization and hold some sort of standard for truthfulness?

[Equinox]

10. I don't know how relevant this maybe..but I found it poignant.

During these days of celebration I will remember my first Palestinian friend, Nyaela Ayed, who was murdered in Jerusalem in 1999. A health advocate and planner who studied in the United States and was known by all as a gentle and principled person, I last saw Nyaela in Jerusalem in 1998 and spent many hours speaking to her about her life and the future of her people. I also visited the land her family owned in Jerusalem that Jewish settlers coveted. These settlers were willing to pay large sums of money for a small piece of land that would then forever be removed from Nyaela's family and from her people. The Ayed's refused to sell the land. A short time later, Nyaela was murdered, a single stab wound to the heart, a professional execution.

It was during Passover last year that I learned of her death and visited her mother and sisters one morning in the same home where I had previously visited with Nyaela. In the afternoon, I went to Nyaela's grave just outside of the walls of the old city. In ancient understandings of Islam, those buried there are to be among the first resurrected in the last days, in contemporary Palestinian life Nyaela was designated a martyr, her grave sealed with the love of a grateful people.

This Passover I remember Nyaela and all those Palestinians known and unknown to me. As helicopter gunships reign terror on a defenseless people, I remember the faces and cries of a people whose freedom is integral to my own and to that of my people. Is this the last Passover that I will celebrate?

My heart is not in the celebration this year. And it can never be again until freedom for Jews is also freedom for Palestinians.

What do I answer my children when they ask the simple and difficult questions they are commanded to ask as we gather to tell the story of our origins thousands of years ago? That helicopter gunships are like the parting of the sea? That Ariel Sharon is like Moses leading us through the difficult times of desert and rebellion?

I no longer have the answers to their questions. But I will respond as a Jew in the only way possible today. That the Palestinians are part of our story of liberation and until they are free, we are not.
http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa/wmd/ep/resources/mideast/conflict/passover.htm