Hizbollah rockets hit Sea of Galilee town

[G2099]

Four Israelis, including a five-year-old child, have been killed and 300 hurt by about 700 rockets fired since Wednesday at an unprecedented number of more than 20 towns. Over 100 Lebanese, mostly civilians, have died in Israeli air raids.

The Hizbollah rocket barrages have sparked widespread panic that has sent thousands of Israelis fleeing the north and many others heading for bomb shelters.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L1552657.htm

[BayCityProgressive]

1. I hope this can all be stopped soon

:(

[MADem]

2. At least four were killed on that Naval vessel as well.

They aren't getting a lot of bang for their buck, if they've used seven hundred rockets to kill just four people and wound three hundred.

Either they aren't aiming, or they can't aim.

[BayCityProgressive]

3. that is still a lot of wounded

and many of them could be seriously wounded.

[BayCityProgressive]

4. Also notice

that Hezbollah targets civilians purposely. They want nothing less than all Jews to be dead.

[MADem]

6. It's TWO rockets and then some to wound one person

Those things aren't cheap. They aren't getting much return on their investment, is all I'm saying. No way they can keep this up, not unless they have a comfy stockpile of weaponry and a secure supply line.

They are doing a bit of terrorizing, but after people figure out the range and get the hell away from harm's way, there will likely be a massive push in the southern part of Lebanon, and Hizb'Allah will be engaged with overwhelming force, unless they are able to slip away.

[Igel]

5. They attempt much murder.

Fortunately, they can't aim them well. And many are small, negligible, really, and therefore forgiveable. At least by people in the US and Europe.

They're working improving the kill rate, though. Quite explicit about their aims.

[IntiRaymi]

7. Well, in the interest of equal opportunity

May I mention the massacre of 2 dozen lebanese civilians, strafed and incinerated by the IAF, 2 days ago?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/

So who has been more effective at the game of killing innocent bystanders?

[sabbat hunter]

8. who delibertly

who intentionally targets civilians? hizbollah

who warns people that an attack is about to commence? the israelis

by doing so the israelis are complying with international law to warn civilians away from a war zone.

hizbollah on the other hand targets civilians to try and kill as many as possible.

see the difference?

[IntiRaymi]

10. Wait a minute here

Your arguments are implying that somehow innocent bystanders are responsible for their own deaths.
There has to be an acknowledgement, here, that it IS possible - and necessary, even! - to criticize the actions of a 'responsible' government, such as that of the State of Israel.

About the warning you mention:

"It will be called the massacre of Marwaheen. All the civilians killed by the Israelis had been ordered to abandon their homes in the border village by the Israelis themselves a few hours earlier. Leave, they were told by loudspeaker; and leave they did, 20 of them in a convoy of civilian cars. That's when the Israeli jets arrived to bomb them, killing 20 Lebanese, at least nine of them children. The local fire brigade could not put out the fires as they all burned alive in the inferno. Another "terrorist" target had been eliminated."

From an article by Robert Fisk, found at
http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=540610

Granted, you cannot blindly rely on news emerging from a battlefield of any sort, as the Fog of War renders much of it untrustworthy. By the same token, this last sentence of mine ought to provide you with pause for thought concerning anything you obtain from Israeli media, as well.

[AnOhioan]

19. Sorry...the "difference" is bullshit

A dead civilian is a dead civilian...nationality or religion does NOT MATTER!

[sabbat hunter]

21. yes all civilians

are the same. the nationality doesnt matter.

however israel tries to minimize civilian casualties. hizbollah and hamas hide behind civilians and then complain when civilians die in the cross-fire that israel is massacring civilians (which they arent)

[bobby911]

9. this many rockets into civilian area's?

Isn't this a Disproportionate response?

If Israel shot 700+ rockets into Beiruit we would be hearing about war crimes non stop here.

Why does Lebonon via Hezbullah get a free ride?

[pelsar]

11. its called the double standard....

though some do claim they hold israel to a "higher morality"...which means they somehow believe that Hiaballa/hamas etc are somehow "lesser humans" in that they just cant seem to meet the same morality as others (though i've never really gotten a definitive explanation as to why there isnt a single morality for all).


the article itself really has nothing new for israelis as hezballas plans and planning has been known for a long time, though for the rest of the world it might be surprising.

[Jim Sagle]

12. You just don't understand....some civilian areas are more civilian than

others.

[bobby911]

13. oh I get it

All Hezbullah training camps are *civilian* and all Israeli cities are fair game.

[IntiRaymi]

14. An issue with this line of reasoning is that it never concludes.

But while Israel has been enduring a steady stream of attacks by these armed organizations, you cannot one-sidedly state that 'Hamas & Hizbollah have perpetrated so and so' without also at least recognizing that there is a very long list of outrages performed by the IDF over the years.
I suppose that, by now, your mindset has been brutalized by this conflict, and it shows with the reasoning your posts follow (I lurk quite a bit, you may notice my post count is low, but I am always reading these forums).

[bobby911]

15. you're wrong

Israel has went too far...no question.

But where are the cries of war crimes against Hezbullah for launching 700+ rockets at civilian areas?

If Israel launched 700+ rockets at lebanon we would here the cries of war crimes from here to eternity but Lebanon gets a free ride because they claim part of their own government isnt under their control?

How about Israel just rename any army group that attacks Lebanon and declare those troops aren't under their control so you can't blame Israel for what they do?How about they just name 10,000 or so troops nonhezbullah and then claim that whatever they do can't be held against Israel?

Do you really think that line would pass here?

[pelsar]

16. i dont doubt for a second...

that the palestenian/lebanese civilians who are hurt and family members who survived are pissed as hell, nor would i doubt for a minute the hatred some will have for israels security services for what they do....I recognize that those feelings are very real and natural.

but i also KNOW that when i'm in reserve duty, i, nor any one that i've ever met, has gone out and tried to kill civilians. I KNOW that when there is some suspicious movement at night the radios start crackin while different lookouts attempt to identify it, before any action is taken (not always possible). And i dont open up with my machine gun while the palestenains wait in line to enter israel.

But no, my mindset has not be brutalized, i still see the palestenians/lebanese as people, who should be able to live lives free of occupation and threats, just as us israelis should be able to live without those threats....but i also demand a single moral standard and see that by giving them a "pass" that it will only lead to further violence.

targeting civilians because they are civilians and member of the "wrong group" is simply murder, any organization that does that as policy has no right to exist within society today....its that simple.

[IntiRaymi]

17. You must be a member of the IDF, then.

If so, your actions are not your responsibility, at the first approximation. But, how can you be an effective soldier if you haven't sufficiently dehumanized the enemy, then?
On Killing, by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, where he states that an effective soldier must become a killing machine, and for that to be the case, this soldier has to see the enemy as 'not human.' This overrides the instinct to preserve life, and grants you a moral reprieve when you head home, after the war. All of it, of course, is state-sanctioned. Otherwise, it would be considered murder, in a legal sense.
Now, complicating all of this, as you are aware, is the fact that you are fighting asymmetric warfare, and no matter what materiel is at your disposal, you will probably not come out ahead. This is about propaganda, Pelsar, and Israel does not seem to be handling this aspect very well.
Well, it tries. Consider the reporting of israeli casualties, compared with the effort one has to undertake to find out about Lebanese/Palestinian casualties.

[pelsar]

18. i'm in the reserves....

which means i'm called up for training and/or active duty once or twice a year. But my actions are very much my responsability...

the effective soldier stuff...well we have a very complicated situation. When the IDF is looking for a better discplined bunch that will not question orders, they use the younger guys in regular service, when the situation calls for experience, judgement, they use the older guys....and we do hesitate, which is what the younger and more "effective soliders dont do.....and in some cases it does cost us lives, but we wont/cant give up our morality/humanity...the younger guys, more hot headed, less aware, many see the arabs as "lesser human" are usually the cause for the screwups one sees on TV and what you dont see on TV.

As far as the war, in assmetrical warfare, where the enemy wears civilian clothes and is media wise, there is no way we can come out ahead. An example is gaza. No matter what israel does, it will come out the bad guy.....its that simple. Lebanon?...israel was denounced for flying recon flights over lebanon, if those werent done a lot more missles would now be landing in israel. But that connection because its cant be seen on the news wont be applicable...what will be, will be the bombed out houses that housed the missles and the dead "civilians" around .

In the end, we dont have to see our enemy as subhuman to destroy him, because of the equipment today, our advantages and the military info, we dont always have to shoot first and ask questions later, many times we confirm before we fire.....and feel confident that were not shooting civilians but people who want us dead (but this is hardly 100%)

[Posteritatis]

20. Do you know which ship was hit? (nt)