Ha'aretz: Israel's "War of Choice" in Lebanon

[liberalpragmatist]

Operation Peace for the IDF
By Gideon Levy

Every neighborhood has one, a loudmouth bully who shouldn't be provoked into anger. He's insulted? He'll pull out a knife. Spat in the face? He'll draw a gun. Hit? He'll pull out a machine gun. Not that the bully's not right - someone did harm him. But the reaction, what a reaction! It's not that he's not feared, but nobody really appreciates him. The real appreciation is for the strong who don't immediately use their strength. Regrettably, the Israel Defense Forces once again looks like the neighborhood bully. A soldier was abducted in Gaza? All of Gaza will pay. Eight soldiers are killed and two abducted to Lebanon? All of Lebanon will pay. One and only one language is spoken by Israel, the language of force.

<snip>

The painful steps taken in Gaza, which included dropping a one-ton bomb on a residential building, or killing an entire family of seven children under cover of darkness in Lebanon, killing dozens of residents, bombing an airport, cutting off electricity and water to hundreds of thousands of people for months were a response lacking any justification, legitimacy or proportion. What goal did it serve? Was the soldier released? Did the Qassams stop? Was deterrence restored? None of that happened. Only lost honor was supposedly restored, and immediately the next evil wind showed up, this time from the north.

<snip>

Everyone knows how this war begins, but does anyone know how it ends? Heavy casualties in the Israeli rear? A war with Syria? A general war? Is it all worth it? Look what a new rookie government can do in such a short time.

Behind the operations in Lebanon and Gaza is the same foolish idea about pressure on the population leading to political changes that Israel wants. In the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict, that concept has only led us from one disaster to the next. We "cleansed" southern Lebanon of Palestinians in 1982, and what did we get? Hezbollahstan instead of Fatahland. Hamas won't fall because Gaza is in the dark, and not even because we bombed the Palestinian Foreign Ministry building at the weekend - another nonsensical move; Hezbollah won't be smashed because the international airport in Beirut has been put out of commission.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738739.html

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[Behind the Aegis]

2. ?!?!

Do you have any other line?

I have heard about the Zionists wanting world domination. I read it in "The Protocols on the Learned Elders of Zion".

[Libertino]

4. Granted

There is much anti-semitism in much of the 'anti-Israel' rethoric.

However, it is not necessarily anti-semitic to brutally criticize the CURRENT Israeli government.

(just as it is not anti-American to hate the Bush administration)

[Name removed]

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[Behind the Aegis]

6. Oh I agree with you...

...Honestly, the past few days have been VERY eye-opening! It has revealed those who are really neutral or pro-Palestinian, and it has shone light on those that claim to be pro-Palestinian, but in actuality are simply anti-Israeli or worse.

I have no issue criticizing the Israeli government or even saying the incursions into Gaza or Lebanon were "too much," but I draw the line at those that go on the attack at the very mention of the words "Israel" or "Israeli" like crazed beasts!

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Erika]

14. I have heard nothing anti-semetic.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. listen more closely....

[Erika]

24. I have

Try being a little more honest and less sensitive.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. no...i don't think so...

...take a trip into GD and GD-P...check for the locked threads...

[Name removed]

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[Behind the Aegis]

32. Then you obviously don't know what is going on.

Check out the ADL about Anti-Semitism worldwide.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Erika]

41. Then pay the costs yourselves

and keep out of my taxes.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. my taxes, too...

...and I am glad they go to Israel!

[Name removed]

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[Behind the Aegis]

44. you seem to like to conflate Israel with Jews...

...that's a "no-no" in I/P!

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Antisemitism still does exist in 2006, Erika....

Not at the same levels as the past, but it's still there. There's really no form of bigotry that just ceases to exist as far as I know, and antisemitism is an ancient bigotry that still rears its ugly head way too often. Just because some folk are prone to label anything and everything antisemitism doesn't mean everyone else should just brush off all of it as not existing...

[Erika]

39. I just think they should account for spending my tax $

Is that anti-semitism?

[TomClash]

52. But one poster

seems to hurl the accusation quite liberally.

[Andromeda]

61. There is nobody more honest than BtA, Erika....

and I think his sensitivity speaks well for him.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. No, there has been some...

Not as much as some here who do actually believe that criticism of Israel = Antisemitism would have you believe, but there is some around the place. Both Antisemitism and bigoted comments about Arabs/Muslims tend to come out of the woodwork when something big happens in the Middle East....

[Erika]

33. It's not a religious thing to me

It's who is trying to take my taxes in their religious righteousness.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Antisemitism isn't a religious thing...

That's how it originally began, but now it's going nothing to do with religion....

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Erika]

10. I doubt that. I just don't like sponges

of my tax $.

[Name removed]

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[Erika]

9. Any civilization which is dependent on another for its very

existence, owes an explanation for their radicalism.

When they can pay for it themselves, they own no explanation. Israel qualifies to become a state for the money we give them. Maybe they could finally pay some of it back.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. You really don't know what you are talking about, do you?

Israel has paid back many of their loans, one of the few countries that actually does. So, when you give someone money for their birthday or for a loan, do you demand to know how it was spent and tell them how they can spend it?!

[Erika]

13. Give my tax $ for a birthday present or loan?

What are you talking about. You think I want my government giving my taxes for a birthday present or a loan?

I would wish to sever my $ paid to Israel. They enjoy a higher standard of living than U.S. citizens. Paid for by us.

I certainly don't want to also pay for their militancy. I won't criticize them when they quit depending on us for their survival. If they can't stand, let them fall.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. You really don't know what you are talking about as far as the loans.

There are many things I don't want to pay taxes to, but I don't have a choice. Perhaps the IRS should create a new form so people can say what they want to pay for and what they don't. :eyes:

Until you learn more about this topic, I don't see how any further discussion would even be relevant.

[Erika]

26. I dont wish to pay taxes so Israelis can have a free ride

Much less than pay for their militancy. Does that express it sufficiently? They enjoy a higher standard of living than we have. When is enough enough?

[Behind the Aegis]

29. .

:eyes:

[Scurrilous]

16. Actually...

...thanks to the Cranston Amendment, Congress grants Israel the money to cover their loans.

"It is the policy and intention" of the United States to provide Israel with economic assistance "not less than" the amount Israel owes to the United States in annual debt service payments, including principal and interest.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. and yet they still repay loans....

[Erika]

21. A free ride to Israel

paid for by U.S. taxpayers.

[UndertheOcean]

18. The (about ) 2-3 BILLION that the US gives Israel each year are NOT loans

??

[Behind the Aegis]

20. some are, some aren't.

[Waya]

63. No, they are not Loans.....

....it's an Aide package - they get it every year.....and do not have to pay it back. It's sad.

[Erika]

23. Sources, please n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Demanding to know where money goes...

So, when you give someone money for their birthday or for a loan, do you demand to know how it was spent and tell them how they can spend it?!

Apparently many folk do think that they can demand to know how it was spent and tell them how they can spend it when it comes to the Palestinians...

[Erika]

38. Yep

Why we should give Israelis no accountability for spending our tax $ is beyond me. It's a political thing.

[MaswinMO]

62. why not complain about Palestinian accountability...

We give them a ton of aid as well and we still allowed them to give Hamas a majority in their govt.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Scurrilous]

45. Excellent article...

...thanks for posting. :thumbsup:

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Thanks for getting things back ontrack,,,

I was so distracted by this road-smash of a thread in response to it that I'm only just getting round to reading the article now :)

[Violet_Crumble]

47. He said something I totally agree with...

and that was:

'Everyone agrees that "something must be done." Everyone agrees that a sovereign state cannot remain silent when it is attacked within its own borders, though in Israel's eyes Lebanese sovereignty was always subject to trampling, but why should that non-silence be expressed solely by an immediate and all-out blow?'

Excellent article...

[Erika]

48. I don't want my tax $ used to run over Lebanon

Period.

[eridani]

49. No one seems to have noticed--

--that Ha'aretz is an Israeli newspaper.

[Violet_Crumble]

50. I already know...

It's one of the best media sources when it comes to Israeli/Palestinian affairs, imo...

[DELUSIONAL]

51. have we read such strong words against bush/cheney/rummy??

in a major US newspaper -- as the words about the current leadership of Israel -- in a major Israeli newspaper????

And we have the "why" reason for the war -- plus reference to the cost.

Israel once again is not distinguishing between a justified war against Hezbollah and an unjust and unwise war against the Lebanese nation. The camouflage concealing the war's real goals was ripped off by this defense minister, who says what he means: "Nasrallah is going to get it so bad that he will never forget the name Amir Peretz," he bragged, like a typical bully. Now at least we know that Israel went to war so that the name Amir Peretz is never forgotten. It's the war for the perpetuation of the name Peretz and the blurring of Dan Halutz's failures. And to hell with the cost.



In the end it will be the Israeli people who demand that their leaders STOP this war of choice.

bush has engaged in a war of choice -- Iraq -- he wanted to be a war Prez -- but guess what -- there has been no declaration of war. . .

In the end the only way that the invasion/occupation of Iraq will end is when the majority of Americans vote.

There are strong voices in Israel against their leaders war of choice -- I put my faith in the people of Israel to force a no confidence against their idiots.

[Violet_Crumble]

53. That's where the US media is very lacking...

In Israel as with many other Western states, strong criticism of current leaders is a common thing (excluding Murdoch rags, of course)...

If the Israeli populations dissent over the invasion of Lebanon in the 80s is anything to go by, there will be demands this stops. It's not achieving anything apart from causing more death and destruction and not doing a thing to have their troops returned or to 'destroy' Hezbollah....

[TomClash]

54. This Government

has turned out to be a Likud wet dream. Netanyahu must be salvating right now, along with the American neo-con contingent of Richard Perle, Paul Wolfkowitz, the Kristols, the Podhoretzs, the Bush Administration and others.

The only thing that gives me some hope is that August oil futures were trading at 76.80 at 6 a.m. this morning. Maybe there are some serious private cease fire discussions.

[Poll_Blind]

55. Actually, I think Netanyahu is pissed at Olmert right now. I believe...

...that if you look at the level of rhetoric that Netanyahu has leveled at Olmert, but specifically before this military misadventure, it's clear he's gunning for the Prime Ministership and a return of the Likud. Netanyahu probably views Olmert as a turncoat- especially since Kadima also took Tzipi Livni (an extremely popular Israeli MK) from Likud.

  Right now, I think Likud, as a party, is reeling from Olmert's actions. Olmert's actions don't so much represent a real departure from Likud, but an attempt to make a competing force against Likud but at the same time more or less equal to Likud's political opinions. It could represent the death of the current political structure of Likud and aquiesence to Kadima. It's as if John McCaine left the republican party to start his own self-described more moderate party. McCaine wins but more or less does the same thing as the republicans do. It would chill the republicans to see this because it could lead to a big deflation of their membership.

  Kadima under Sharon would have been more moderate. But his stroke and removal from the picture changed all that when Olmert stepped in. Sharon, Olmert and Livni are all at least first (or in Livni's case) second generation Likud members.

FWIW...

PB

[Malikshah]

57. Bingo-- and of course, Livni was raised in such a fascinating household

Must be great to have a parent who was so willing to kill innocents with terrorist actions...

"They've been kadima'd (i.e. they've been bamboozled)"

[Poll_Blind]

58. I have no idea what kind of things she was taught as a child but...

...they were likely, to put it charitably, one-sided. Did you know, btw, that because of her popularity when Sharon had his stroke there was a brief power struggle between her and Olmert which she quickly acquiesced to? I spent some time yesterday wondering, based on my research of who she is, how much more different things might be if she had fought Olmert for the position and won. I'm not sure there would be much difference, especially because of her upbringing, but it was a brief amusement. I'm sure she's thinking about that too because she's having to play international interference for his actions.

  Oh well, very many "What if?"s in history.

PB

[Malikshah]

59. I don't suspect there would have been much difference.

Yes-- I was preparing a lecture for some folks re: Gaza and beyond in the beginning of the year when the whole Sharon/Kadima/Hamas/Olmert v. Lipni thing was going on.

I might be uncharitable w/ my remarks on her, but the whole apple and tree issue remains. Public v. Private statements are very much tied to one's upbringing and discussions around the dinner table, etc.

The what ifs continue, but in the end the proof is in the pudding. Anyone who has followed Olmert's past as well as read his statements over the years should not be surprised at what is currently going on in Lebanon.

[Poll_Blind]

60. You might be interested in this old Nightline episode on YouTube...

...where Olmert "debates" Meir Kahane. Speaking of apple not falling far from the tree. It's only like ~8 minutes long but what I was left with was the impression that Kahane and Olmert, specifically on the question of Arab transfer, were two sides of the same coin. Kahane was marked not by his difference of opinion with Olmert but by the fact that he was willing to speak openly about his ideas whereas Olmert weasels out of every direct question put to him by Koppel. Really telling...

Debate: Rabbi Meir Kahane Vs. Ehud Olmert

PB

[MaswinMO]

56. I think it's obvious that...

Hezbollah captured those two Israeli soldiers in order to pull Israel into an attack on Lebanon. Hezbollah wanted Israel to attack Lebanon so that the other parties in Lebanon's govt. will ally themselves with Hezbollah.

The US certainly has no sway with Hezbollah but we definitely have the ability to put pressure on Israel and Lebanon. We need to tell Israel to back off in its offensive.

Then we need to tell Lebanon that even if it has to have a govt. shutdown that they need to ban Hezbollah from having seats in govt. until they disarm.

[ChiciB1]

64. I'm NO Anti-Semetic.... But I Do Feel Israel Could/Should Have Used

much more restraint. It just seems to me that they have been itching for a fight for much too long. I don't identify with ANY real Faith, I'm more into "Spiritualism" and admit to a lot of confusion about Christianity and other religions. I sometimes think I ask too many questions, others tell me I need to just accept the concept with blind faith and I wish I could.

I considered myself an "agnostic" but have been told that the fact that I have a belief in spiritualism and very probably an after-life that I'm NOT an agnostic. Anyway, I don't have a dog in this fight when it comes to who believes what, I just think Israel does seem overly BULLISH this time around.

No matter, the KILLING must stop!

[MaswinMO]

65. Tell that to Hezbollah..

The killing would stop if Hezbollah would disarm and stop firing missiles into Israel.

[ChiciB1]

66. It Would Be Nice If The Picture Was As Clear As You Paint It

I think there's more than enough blame to go around, and sadly America stirring the ant hills years ago.

I haven't lived a moment on this earth when I haven't heard about fighting in the Middle East! This place on Earth where most call "The Holy Land!" I don't see very much "Holy" coming from there. I think this is the reason I stay conflicted about my beliefs.