From Bad to Worse

[barb162]

From Bad to Worse
By Mortimer B. Zuckerman

Posted Sunday, July 16, 2006


Eleven months ago, Israel withdrew from every last inch of the Gaza Strip. The Israelis dismantled all military bases, destroyed all their settlements, turned over functioning greenhouses that could employ 4,000 people, expelled all 7,500 Israeli settlers--all at a huge financial and political cost. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon even went a step further, declaring the lines that divide Israel from Gaza an international frontier, making Gaza the first independent Palestinian territory ever.

Everyone hoped then that the Palestinians would show the world what they could achieve with freedom as a template for a future independent state. Alas, they have shown us all too well. Not one day of peace has followed since then. The pattern was set on the very day of Israel's pullout. Palestinian militants fired rockets from Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border, targeting innocent civilians living in the pre-1967 Israel recognized by the international community. The final straw came last month, with the Hamas attack that killed two Israeli soldiers and resulted in the kidnapping of a third. Last week, inspired by the rhetorical threats of Iran's incendiary president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hezbollah--like Hamas, another Iranian proxy--attacked Israel from the north, killing eight Israeli soldiers and abducting two more, and then began raining rockets down onto Israel civilians.

snip

It is more clear than ever that the core of the Israeli-Palestinian dispute stems not from Israel's unwillingness to compromise but from the nature of its adversary; and that the desire among Palestinians to eliminate Israel is too powerful, the adherence to violence too pervasive, to overcome. Most fair-minded observers share the Israeli conclusion that there is no Palestinian partner for peace. As the leading Egyptian paper, Al-Ahram, pointed out: "The Palestinians must be aware by now that they can no longer count on Arab help, economically, politically, or militarily . ... Arab nations have had enough ... of the slogans and rhetoric that have gotten us nowhere. ... The Palestinians have lost Arab backing both on the official and nonofficial levels." And the CEO of the Arab News Agency Al Arabiya wrote, "Was the result worth all the damage it caused?"

The Middle East equation today could hardly be more stark or depressing. It reveals once again that Hamas and the Palestinians, now joined by Hezbollah, armed and financed by Iran, wish to get rid of Israel. This will be a "long war" in which victory will be the culmination of a series of unavoidable catastrophes.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/060716/24edit.htm

[AnOhioan]

1. Nice spin piece....basically calls all Palestinians terrorists

One word reply to this tripe.....bullshit

[barb162]

2. Spin? My goodness. That's not very deep

You're saying this about a man who donated about a million bucks to the Palestinians? Tsk, tsk

Hamas and Hezbollah don't want to "get rid" of Israel?

Have you read the Hamas Charter

[AnOhioan]

3. I have no clue as to his monetary donations

What I do know is that he paints an entire group of people with the same brush. That is the basis of my belief that this particular article is crap.

Hamas and Hezbollah do not now, nor ever have, represent all Palestinians. Or all Arabs, or all Muslims.

[barb162]

5. Have you ever read the Hamas Charter?

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm
snip
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
snip
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.
snip
This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.
snip


Whenever I read that violent piece of trash ( and that is my definition of real terrorist trash) there's no way I conclude Hamas wants a two state solution or peace with Israel in any fashion. If you can read something somewhere in that document, like Hamas wants peace with Israel, I would like to know where it is.

[AnOhioan]

7. Let me repeat myself...maybe you missed it the 1st time

Hamas and Hezbollah do not now, nor ever have, represent all Palestinians. Or all Arabs, or all Muslims.

[barb162]

10. No on is arguing that point,

Anymore than anyone should conclude that Bush represents all wishes of all Americans or any elected official of any country represents the wishes of every person in that country.

[AnOhioan]

11. You seem to be arguing that point

by posting an opinion piece that lumps all Palestinians in with Hamas and Hezbollah. The author is just ignorant if he really believes that all Palestinians want to see Israel destroyed.

May I suggest reading this piece;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1821605,00.html

for a much more realistic take on the situation.

And thanks to DU poster liberalpragmatist for linking to the above article in another thread.

[barb162]

12. When a people's government does nothing about rockets

being fired into another country, things get a bit out of whack fairly quickly sometimes, don't they? This applies to the Palestinians with the Hamas/Fatah government and the Lebanese government with Hezbollah. Discussing all the niceties of war and how war should be fought just get lost.

[DemFromMem]

15. Hamas DOES represent the Palestinians

Or was the nightmare election from last winter just a mistaken recollection? The Palestinian people bear some responsibility for turning their back on the party advancing the peace process and electing a terrorist organization. You can blame Israel for all their problems (that's usually how it goes on this board), but the Israelis weren't the one casting those votes.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. The Palestinian elections weren't about any peace process...

That's coz there was no hint of a peace process in the air and Palestinians voted on purely internal issues like corruption in Fatah....

[barb162]

43. But Hamas does represent the Palestinians

[DemFromMem]

50. Talk about parsing...

The friends of Palestinians in this community would help them a lot more if they stopped excusing the terrorists in charge and started promoting the Palestinians who are serious about peace making.

[barb162]

58. ah, wisdom!

[barb162]

6. He wanted to see the Gaza area succeed as he felt that was the

best chance for peace with Israel. The theory being that economic success and good financial infrastucture would lower or stop terrorism against Israel.

[Englander]

36. The terrorism against Palestinians, of course, is ignored.

The blockade of the Gaza strip, & the closing of the trade terminal at Karni, & the destruction of
the civilian infrastructure, & the targeting of a civilian population, gets his fulsome support.

[Andromeda]

32. Thanks, barb, for posting this piece.

If people would READ it and look a little deeper they would realize that this Mideastern tragedy is more complicated than a few gratuitous soundbites.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. And there's the 110% confirmation the article was propagandist crap...

n/t

[barb162]

42. And here's your input which proves it 's a rational opinion piece

[barb162]

48. You're right as usual, Andromeda

and THANK YOU!

[Englander]

67. 'Irony? What's that?' n/t

[liberalhistorian]

72. He's making it sound as if EVERY

Palestinian is responsible and that ALL Palestinians have control over Hamas and Hezbollah, and that's pure bullshit.

[barb162]

13. "All"???

I don't think so. Where in the article is that stated?

[Englander]

17. You're joking, right?

Please say that you are.

[barb162]

22. Joking about what?

[Englander]

19. Particularly hateful bullshit, as well.

This guy reads like some sort of a bushbot, I'm guessing that he's a conservative, of some variety.

[barb162]

24. It's particularly rational and thoughtful opinion

coming from a person who he gave a million bucks of his own money for Gaza Palestinians. He knows the score.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. It's nothing but mindless drivel, barb....

And if you still can't see that he was stereotyping the Palestinian people in that article, here's a great big hint: 'They elected a radical Islamic Hamas government;" He is talking of the entire Palestinian population, and I don't give a toss if someone gives a billion dollars to save the baby seals. All it means is they're a fucking bigot who's given a billion dollars to save the baby seals...

While this simple-minded 'Israel is totally innocent and the Palestinians are evil, genocidal monsters' crap may appeal to some folk, this article wouldn't appeal to anyone who who's looking for something a bit more rational...

[barb162]

44. It's a rational and well thought out opinion piece, Violet

And not into the all-or-nothing stuff you're trying to implying about total innocence and total evil

Oh, sorry you don't like it.

[Englander]

31. It's hateful nonsense.

Please explain how this nonsense is 'particularly rational and thoughtful opinion', beyond 'because
I say so'? If you think that this piece is as you describe, please provide egs, it shouldn't be too
difficult, if that's the case.

The question of any donations is completely irrelevant, the article's still an alternate version of
reality.

[barb162]

51. Please explain if you see any factual errors as long as you

you mention alternate version of reality. I don't see any fact errors. For example he mentions rockets have been shot from Gaza in to Israel. DO you see that as a fact error? Do you agree that's been happening just about daily since Sept. 2005

[Englander]

62. Translation -

It isn't 'rational & thoughtful opinion', I shall attempt to divert the discussion by completely
ignoring my previous mention of 'rational & thoughtful opinion', & just reverse any question I'm
asked, & completely ignore such questions.

[TomClash]

33. He's the Publisher of US News & World Report and the NY Daily News

He frequently appears on the McLaughlin Report talk show in the United States. He's extraordinarily rich as all hell, as in Bloomberg/Gates/Buffet rich, mostly from real estate, and he's a big time neo-con Dem contributor, sort of a more moderate Rupert. He spreads a lot of pocket change all over the place. He was pressured to raise funds for some humanitarian fund for Palestine along with a lot of other super-rich people as part of the Gaza pullout strategy. Still, if it weren't for his foreign policy views, he'd be ok in my book.

[Igel]

4. There's the obvious parallel with Hezbollah in the north.

I'm surprised it hasn't been bandied about more, but I didn't see the Sunday morning blither shows.

Similar situations (with a few differences), similar kinds of foes, essentially the same stated end in order to avoid the same on-going threat.

[barb162]

8. That reminds me, there was an article by Robin Wright

in the Wash Post you might want to read. I hesitate posting it as it 's a bit simplistic and strangely emotionally written in some spots and in certain respects but she describes her talks with the head of Hezbollah. It's called "In the Mind of Hezbollah" or something similar

[Oversea Visitor]

9. Something can never be fixed again

After World War 2 some dickheads decided to sent all the Jews to what we called today Isreal.
People were displaced to make land for them. So till today they still fight for what they beleive is their land.

Can we blame the Palestinians? Can we blame the Isrealies?

Fuck up solutions end with fuck up suituation.

Similarly I see Iraq and Afghanistan going this route. Any form of goverment with outside support and interference will just result in longterm conflict. Called it democracy if you want but not when the local people are concern. Stay for endless conflict. Or CUT and RUN. In the first place why invade. Reality is a bitch.

[barb162]

14. There were Christans and Jews there for many, many centuries

It was never, ever 100% Arab

[TomClash]

34. There were a lot more Arabs than Jews

until Jewish immigration began to increase after Balfour.

For much of the 19th Century, there were fewer jews in Palestine than there are in the Negev today.

[barb162]

56. And there was migration under the Ottoman Empire too

where the Ottomans at times encouraged people from its empire to populate that area.

[Oversea Visitor]

39. Yup

Look now what happen. Peace all gone. Stupid solutions. End up fuck up result. And we keep on seeing this result over and over. Something can never be fixed once broken.

Cannot go back and redo history. Isreal is a reality. So .......... FUBAR.

[AnOhioan]

41. So now all Arabs are Muslim.....

You are good for a laugh..I will say that.

[barb162]

45. In what post did I write that. Please don't mis-state my posts

Your attempt to mis-state my post is not laughable

[AnOhioan]

49. If you don't want to be misunderstood, then use clearer words.

Your statement;

"There were Christans and Jews there for many, many centuries. It was never, ever 100% Arab."

reads as if all Arabs are neither Christian or Jewish.

In fact, there are Christian Arabs. They are called Maronite Christians.

And I am pretty sure you would find the odd Jewish Arab as well.

Maybe your point was, and should have read, "It was never, ever 100% Muslim." And on that point we can agree.

Of course religion is somewhat useless in defining a people, as today's inhabitants of the region, from all religions, share a common geneological background. Unfortunately there is a tendency to segregate by religion, a tendency that has exacerbated the conflict.

[barb162]

54. This reads clearly despite your attempts to state otherwise

"There were Christans and Jews there for many, many centuries. It was never, ever 100% Arab."

And we all know that there are Christian Arabs not only in this particular area, but in Egypt and others countries of the Mideast.

[AnOhioan]

55. No it did not read clearly....

Sorry to burst your bubble. Have a good night.

[barb162]

60. Sorry to burst yours, but it did

[Englander]

16. Who writes this shite?

More importantly, who believes a word of it?

[pelsar]

18. lots of us liberals.....

The pattern was set on the very day of Israel's pullout. Palestinian militants fired rockets from Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border, targeting innocent civilians living in the pre-1967 Israel

[barb162]

21. Oh yes, facts like daily rockets from Gaza fired by Palestinians

at Israel.
Good point.

Yes, lots of us liberals think this is a good article

[Englander]

66. Priceless.

If in doubt, introduce a couple of red herrings, & completely misrepresent other posters views, &
for good measure, make stuff up.

[barb162]

75. Actually , the fact of Gaza residents firing rockets into Israel

was in the Zuckerman article. Sorry, Englander you're wrong.

In the second paragraph of the article you will find: "Palestinian militants fired rockets from Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border, targeting innocent civilians living in the pre-1967 Israel recognized by the international community."

[barb162]

20. Don't you find this a lot more rational than Electronic Intifada

shit? Oh, and I believe it and I suspect, so do a lot of other people. Further, it's not shit. It's good writing and rational.

[Englander]

23. Stick to the topic, barb.

If you have a problem with ei, then post in a thread that has an article by ei. Here's a good place
to start;

'What Does Israel Want?

Ilan Pappe, The Electronic Intifada, 14 July 2006
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x135562

[barb162]

25. barfola; I don't read that crap rag

[Englander]

26. Can I have that in English, please. n/t

[barb162]

47. Barf (barfola)=vomit n/t

[Englander]

65. Ya don't say. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Then how the hell do you know whether it's crap?

n/t

[barb162]

46. Back when I did take a few looks at it, I decided that it was trash.

That's how the hell I decided it was crap. Any questions?

[Englander]

64. So, Morty's piece is slightly better than 'trash/crap'? Got it.

Whatever happened to 'rational & thoughtful opinion'?

[barb162]

73. Now there you go again mis-stating my posts

not nice

[Englander]

68. From ei;

"But it's Israel!" Fox News crew shot at by Israeli troops

Video, FOX News, 14 July 2006

'FOX News reporter David Lee Miller was shot at by Israeli troops while reporting from Gaza. The exchange, shown in this clip, between the anchors and the correspondents on the ground is very telling of the ostrich mentality at FOX News. Two of the three anchors, thousands of miles away from the incident, attempt to excuse Israel: "If you're somebody and you're a long ways away and you just see something and you don't know who it is, sometimes you just start shooting". One is utterly incredulous: "Really?" After exiting the scene with his crew, the journalist, David Lee Miller, had time to put together that the shots originated from the Israeli position several hundred yards away.'

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4998.shtml

[Recursion]

40. I'm not the only progressive...

...who felt that Hamas' continuing to fire rockets into Israel after their withdrawl from Gaza was a warmongering act and a betrayal.

[Englander]

63. ?

:shrug:

[Englander]

29. Another writer on USnews.com -

The conservative, David Gergen.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/dgergen.htm

From the archives, hilarious attempts to deny that Gergen, the conservative, isn't really;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=120162

[barb162]

57. Ah yes, Gergen, the loyal adviser of BIG DAWG CLINTON

great guy,isn't he?

[Englander]

61. So, conservatives are 'great guys'? Got it.

Since it's been established that Gergen = conservative, & you've decided for some bizarre reason to
praise him to the sky, it would be logical to surmise that, in your view, conservatives = great guys?

[barb162]

76. It's established Gergen worked for a great DEMOCRAT

named Bill Clinton

[TomClash]

35. Here we go again

The argument goes like this: we pulled out of Gaza, they fired rockets, we have no partner for peace, so we must defend outrselves by killing Palestinians.

No Palestinian asked for Israel to withdraw unilaterally from Gaza. The asked for an orderly and negotiated withdrawal plus substantial aid ($3B would have been a nice start) to help rebuild plus some agreement on refugees. No serious commentator could possibly envision Gaza alone as the new Palestinian state - it was a fig leaf for "realignment" which is a total nonstarter because it does not address the refugees, Jerusalem, arable v. nonarable land and so on. Why do the Palestinians only receive less than 90% of the West Bank? By what right, by what standard of interantional law does that equate?

There are so many things wrong with this article it would take hours to draft a full refutation.

[jonnyblitz]

38. the author of this crap pretty much always sides with the RW point of

of view when I see him, or used to see him, on the tv political talk shows. I am sure he has the PNAC/William Kristol take on things...

[barb162]

52. He's his own man; I suspect he's a Democrat

though I can't prove it. Some of his other opinion pieces I have read show a big concern for traditional progressive values.

[AnOhioan]

53. Most of Mr. Zuckermans political donations...

have been to the National Association of Real Estate Investment Trusts Inc. PAC.

This PAC donates mostly to Republican candidates.

To be fair, Mr Zuckerman also donated to Tom Lantos, a Democratic Congressman from California.

Information available on www.fec.gov

[barb162]

59. You might want to look more deeply into Zuckerman's progressive

stances:
Playing Fair on Taxes
5/1/06
snip
Class warfare? Yes, these cuts have helped stimulate the economy. But they have also turned the impressive fiscal surplus when President Clinton left office into a long-term budget deficit now trillions of dollars, of which about 60 percent can be attributed to the "Bush effect." snip

Fairness and the Future
4/24/06
snip
There is no excuse for the failure of government at all levels to support public colleges so that every academically qualified student, regardless of income, can go to a college or university. If we fail to ensure that this is so, we will undermine an essential pillar of our democracy, just as we have done by allowing the decline of our inner-city schools. We must not allow our universities to become bastions of privilege, rather than instruments of social mobility.

etc

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/mzuckerman.htm

[Peeves]

77. I don't know why it has to be a right or left thing ...

The Israelis do have a right to protect themselves from terrorists.

[pelsar]

69. no it goes like this:

the palestenains have been complaining about the occupation, the world about the "cycle of violence"....so israel pulls out, which breaks the cycle and gives the palestenians their first chance, the palestenians have one border with Egypt, greenhouses to jump start their economy...

Israel breaks the cycle of violence, leaves gaza to the palestenians.....and let them start with the process...for it will take time.....

and what did they do with their "start"...immediatly start shooting rockets over the border, tear down part of the greenhouses, burn down the "UNs resturant" (where beer was sold), etc.....they didnt even give themselves a chance...worse, they showed israel what to expect from the westbank.

they're are many things wrong with the Gaza scenario....the most obvious is the mentality of "all or nothing"....thats usually a losing proposition as many palestenains are witness too and have been for the last 50 years.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jonnyblitz]

71. and vice versa. nt

[Peeves]

74. Oh? How many Israeli Mothers are sending ...

their children to be human bombs to kill innocent civilians for the sake terrorism??? :think:

[Scurrilous]

78. You forget to mention...

...how the Palestinian mothers personally strap the bombs onto their children before sending them off to kill the innocents.